 When Oracle acquired MySQL via the Sun Acquisition, nobody really thought the company would put much effort into the platform, preferring to focus all the wood behind its leading Oracle database arrow, pun intended. But two years ago, Oracle surprised many folks by announcing MySQL HeatWave, a new database as a service, with a massively parallel hybrid columnar in-memory architecture that brings together transactional and analytic data in a single platform. Welcome to our latest database power panel on theCUBE. My name is Dave Vellante. And today we're going to discuss Oracle's MySQL HeatWave with a who's who of cloud database industry analysts. Holger Muller is with Constellation Research. Mark Stamer is the Dragon Slayer and Wikibon contributor. And Ron Westfall is with Futurum Research. Gentlemen, welcome back to theCUBE. Always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having us. Good to be here. So we've had a number of deep dive interviews on theCUBE with Nipin Agrawal. You guys know him. He's the Senior Vice President of MySQL HeatWave, development at Oracle. I think you just saw him at Oracle Cloudworld. And he's come on to describe this. I call it a shock and awe of feature additions to HeatWave. You know, the company is clearly putting R and D into the platform. And I think at Cloudworld, we saw like the fifth major release since 2020 when they first announced MySQL HeatWave. So just listing a few. They've taken, brought in analytics, machine learning. They got autopilot for machine learning, which is automation onto the basic OLTP functionality of the database. And it's been interesting to watch Oracle's Converged Database Strategy. We've contrasted that amongst ourselves. Love to get your thoughts on Amazon's could get the right tool for the right job approach. Are they going to have to change that? You know, Amazon's got the specialized databases. It's just, you know, both companies are doing well. That just shows there are a lot of ways to skin a cat because you see some traction in the market in both approaches. So today we're going to focus on the latest HeatWave announcements. And we're going to talk about multi-cloud with a native MySQL HeatWave implementation, which is available on AWS. MySQL HeatWave for Azure via the Oracle Microsoft Interconnect. It's kind of cool hybrid action that they got going. Sometimes we call it super cloud. And then we're going to dive into MySQL HeatWave Lakehouse, which allows users to process and query data across MySQL databases as well as HeatWave databases as well as object stores. So, and then we've got HeatWave has been announced on AWS and Azure. They're available now. And Lakehouse, I believe is in beta and I think it's coming out the second half of next year. So again, all of our guests are fresh off of Oracle Cloud World in Las Vegas. So they got the latest scoop. Guys, I'm done talking. Let's get into it. Mark, maybe you could start us off. What's your opinion of MySQL HeatWave's competitive position when you think about what AWS is doing? You know, Google is, you know, we heard Google Cloud Next recently. We heard about all their data innovations. You got obviously Azure's got a big portfolio, Snowflakes doing well in the market. What's your take? Well, first let's look at it from the point of view that AWS is the market leader in cloud and cloud services. They own somewhere between 30 to 50% depending who you read of the market. And then you have Azure is number two. And after that, it falls off. There's GCP, Google Cloud Platform, which is further way down the list. And then Oracle and IBM and Alibaba. So when you look at AWS and Azure saying, hey, these are the market leaders in the cloud, then you start looking at it and saying, if I am going to provide a service that competes with the service they have, if I can make it available in their cloud, it means that I can be more competitive. And if I'm compelling, and compelling means at least twice the performance or functionality or both at half the price, I should be able to gain market share. And that's what Oracle's done. They've taken a superior product in MySQL HeatWave, which is faster, lower cost, does more for a lot less at the end of the day. And they make it available to the users of those clouds. You avoid this little thing called egress fees. You avoid the issue of having to migrate from one cloud to another. And suddenly you have a very compelling offer. So I look at what Oracle is doing with MySQL and it feels like I'm gonna use a word term, a flanking maneuver to their competition. They're offering a better service on their platforms. All right, so thank you for that Holger. We've seen this sort of cadence, I sort of referenced it up front a little bit. And they sat on MySQL for a decade. Then all of a sudden we see this rush of announcements. Why did it take so long? And more importantly is Oracle, are they developing the right features that cloud database customers are looking for in your view? They are a great question. But first of all, in your interview, you said it's the added analytics. So why the analytics is kind of like a marketing buzzword. Reports can be analytics, right? The interesting thing which they did, the first thing, they crossed the chasm between OTP and OLAP right in the same database, right? So major engineering feed very much what customers want. And it's all about creating value for customers, which I think is the part by they go into the multi-cloud and why they add these capabilities. And they certainly with the AI capabilities is kind of like getting it into an autonomous field, self-driving field. Now with the Lakehouse capabilities and meeting customers where they are, like Marc has talked about the egress cost in the cloud. So that's a significant advantage and it's creating value for customers. And that's what at the end of the day matters. And I believe strongly that long-term it's gonna be ones who create better value for customers who will get more of their money from that perspective. Why did it take them so long? I think it's a great question. I think largely he mentioned the gentleman Nipun Agarwal. It's largely to who leads the product. I used to build products too. So maybe I'm a little fooling myself here, but that made the difference in my view, right? So since he's been in charge, he's been building things faster than the rest of the competition, the MySQL space, which in hindsight we thought was a hot and smoking innovation phase. It kind of like was a little self complacent when it comes to the traditional borders of where people think where things are separated in OTP and OLAP or as an example, it's the JSON support, right? It's structured documents whereas unstructured documents or databases. And all of that has been collapsed and brought together for building a more powerful database for customers. So I mean, it's certainly, when Oracle talks about the competitors, you know the competitors are in the, I always say that if the Oracle talks about you and knows you're doing well. So they talk a lot about AWS, talk a little bit about Snowflake, sort of Google, they have partnerships with Azure. But and so I'm presuming that the response on MySQL heat wave was really in response to what they were seeing from those big competitors. But then you had MariaDB coming out, you know the day that Oracle acquired Sun and launching and going after the MySQL base. So I'm interested, and we'll talk about this later in what you guys think AWS and Google and Azure and Snowflake are and how they're going to respond. But before I do that Ron, I want to ask you, you can get pretty technical and you've probably seen the benchmarks I know you have. Oracle makes a big deal out of it, publishes its benchmarks, makes them transparent on GitHub, Larry Ellison talked about this in his keynote at Cloud World. What are the benchmark show in general? I mean, when you're new to the market, you got to have a story like Mark was saying, you got to be two X performance at half the cost that you better be or you're not going to get any market share. So, and, you know, oftentimes companies don't publish market benchmarks when they're leading, they do it when they need to gain share. So what do you make of the benchmarks? Have there any results that were surprising to you? Have, you know, they've been challenged by the competitors. Is it just a bunch of kind of desperate bench marketing to make some noise in the market? Or, you know, are they real? What's your view? Well, from my perspective, I think they have validity. And to your point, I believe that when it comes to competitor responses, that has not really happened. Nobody has like pulled down the information that's on GitHub and said, oh, here are our price performance of results and they counter oracles. In fact, I think part of the reason why that hasn't happened is that there's risk if oracles coming out and saying, hey, we can deliver 17 times better query performance using our capabilities versus, say, Snowflake when it comes to the Lakehouse platform. And Snowflake turns around and says, it's actually only 15 times better query performance. That's not exactly an effective maneuver. And so I think this is really to Oracle's credit. And I think it's refreshing because these differentiators are significant. We're not talking, you know, like 1.2% differences. We're talking 17 full differences. We're talking six full differences depending on where the spotlight is being shined and so forth. And so I think this is actually something that is actually too good to believe initially at first blush. But if I'm a cloud-based decision maker, I really have to prioritize this. I really would pay a lot more attention to this. And that's why I posed a question to Oracle and others, like, okay, if these differentiators are so significant, why isn't the needle moving a bit more? And it's for some of the usual reasons. One is really deep discounting, coming from the other players. That's really kind of marketing 101. This is something you need to do when there's a real competitive threat to keep a customer in your own customer base. Plus there is the usual fear and uncertainty about moving from one platform to another. But I think the attraction, the momentum is shifting in Oracle's favor. I think we saw that in the Q1 numbers, for example, where Oracle Cloud grew 24%. And that generated $4.8 billion in revenue, if I recall correctly. And so all these are demonstrating that Oracle is making, I think, many of the right moves, publishing these figures for anybody to look at from their own perspective is something that is, I think, good for the market. And I think it's just going to continue to pay dividends for Oracle down the horizon as competition intensifies. So if I were an Oracle... Dave, can I interject something and what Ron just said there? Yeah, please, go ahead. A couple of things here. One, discounting, which is a common practice when you have a real threat, as Ron pointed out, isn't going to help much in this situation, simply because you can't discount to the point where you improve your performance. And the performance is a huge differentiator. You may be able to get your price down, but the problem that most of them have is they don't have an integrated product service. They don't have an integrated OLTP, OLAP, MLN data lake. Even if you cut out two of them, they don't have any of them integrated. They have multiple services that required separate integration. And that can't be overcome with discounting. And you have to pay for each one of these. And oh, by the way, as you grow, the discounts go away. So it's a minor for important detail. So that's a TCO question, Mark. And I know you look at this a lot. If I had that kind of price performance advantage, I would be pounding TCO. Especially if I need two separate databases to do the job that one can do, that's going to be, the TCO numbers are going to be off the chart or maybe down the chart. They are. Have you looked at this and how does it compare with the big cloud guys, for example? I've looked at it in depth. In fact, I'm working on another TCO on this arena, but you can find it on Wikibon in which I compared TCO for MySQL Heatway versus Aurora plus Redshift plus ML plus Blue. I've compared it against GCP's services, Azure services, Snowflake with other services. And there's just no comparison. The TCO differences are huge. More importantly, the TCO performance is huge. We're talking in some cases, multiple orders of magnitude, but at least an order of magnitude difference. So discounting isn't going to help you much at the end of the day, it's only going to lower your cost a little, but it doesn't improve the automation, it doesn't improve the performance, it doesn't improve the time to insight, doesn't improve all those things that you want out of a database or a multiple databases. Because- You can't discount yourself to a higher value proposition. So what about, Olga, I wonder if you could chime in on the developer angle, you followed that market. How do these innovations from Heatwave, I think you use the term developer velocity, I've heard you use that before. I mean, Oracle owns Java, okay, so it's the most popular programming language in the world, blah, blah, blah, but it doesn't have the minds and hearts of developers. And where does Heatwave fit into that equation? I think Heatwave is gaining quickly mind share on the developer side, why it's not the traditional no-SQL database which grew up, there's a traditional mistrust of developers to what was happening to open source when it gets acquired, like in the case of Oracle versus Java and versus MySQL, right? But we know it's not a good competitive strategy to bank on Oracle screwing up because it hasn't worked neither on Java nor on MySQL, right? And for developers, once you get to know a technology product and you can do more, it becomes kind of like a Swiss Army knife and you can build more use case and you can build more powerful applications. That's super, super important because you don't have to get certified in multiple databases, you are faster at getting things done, you achieve higher developer velocity and the managers are happy because they don't have to license more things, send you to more trainings, have more risk of something not being delivered, right? So it's really the, we see the sweet versus best of breed play happening here which in general was happening before already with Oracle's flagship database whereas Amazon as an example, right? And now the interesting thing is if you step away, Oracle was always the one database company that can be only one. And they're now generally talking about HeatWave and their two database company with different market spaces but same value proposition of integrating more things very, very quickly to have a universal database that I call, they call the Converge database for all the needs of an enterprise to run certain application use cases. And that's what's attractive to developers. It's ironic, isn't it? I mean, the rumor was the TK, Thomas Curian left Oracle because he wanted to put Oracle database on other clouds and other places. And maybe that was the riff. Maybe there was some, I'm sure there was other things but Oracle clearly is now trying to expand its TAM Ron with HeatWave into AWS, into Azure. How do you think Oracle's going to do? You were at a cloud world. What was the sentiment from customers and the independent analysts? Is this just Oracle trying to screw with the competition to create a little diversion or is this serious business for Oracle? What do you think? No, I think it has legs. I think it's definitely, again, contributing to Oracle's overall ability to differentiate not only MySQL HeatWave but it's overall portfolio. And I think the fact that they do have the alliance with Azure in place, that this is definitely demonstrating their commitment to meeting the multi-cloud needs of its customers as well as what we pointed to in terms of the fact that they're now offering MySQL capabilities within AWS natively and that it can outperform AWS's own offering. And I think this is all demonstrating that Oracle is not letting up. They're not resting on its laurels. That's clearly, we are living in a multi-cloud world so why not just make it more easy for customers to be able to use cloud databases according to their own specific needs? And I think to a holder's point, I think that definitely lines with being able to bring on more application developers to leverage of these capabilities. I think one important announcement that's related to all this was that JSON relational duality capabilities were announced a lot easier for application developers to use a language that they're very familiar with, JSON and not have to worry about going into relational databases to store their JSON application coding. So this is I think an example of the innovation that's enhancing the overall Oracle portfolio and certainly all the work with machine learning is definitely paying dividends as well. And as a result, I see Oracle continue to make these inroads that we pointed to but I agree with Mark. The short-term discounting is just a stall tap. This is not denying the fact that Oracle is being able to not only deliver price performance differentiators that are dramatic but also meeting a wide range of needs for customers out there that aren't just limited to price performance differentiations. The input support will be cloud according to customer needs. Being able to reach out to the application developer community and address a very specific challenge that has plagued them for many years now. So bring it all together. Yeah, I see this as enabling Oracle to ring true with customers that the customers that were there are basically all of them even though not all of them are going to be saying the same things they were all basically saying positive feedback. And likewise, I think the analyst community is seeing this. It's always refreshing to be able to talk to customers correctly. And at Oracle Cloud, there was a litany of them. And so this is just a difference maker as well as being able to talk to strategic partners the NVIDIA I think partnership is also testament to Oracle's ongoing ability to make the ecosystem more user friendly for the customers out there. Yeah, it's interesting. When you get these all in one tools of the Swiss Army knife, you expect that it's not able to be best of breed. That's the kind of surprising thing that I'm hearing about Heatwave. I want to talk about Lakehouse because when I think of Lakehouse, I think Databricks. And to my knowledge, Databricks hasn't been in the sights of Oracle yet. Maybe they're next. But Oracle claims that MySQL Heatwave, Lakehouse is a breakthrough in terms of capacity and performance. Mark, what are your thoughts on that? Can you double click on Lakehouse? Oracle's claims for things like query performance and data loading. What does it mean for the market? Is Oracle really leading in the Lakehouse competitive landscape? What are your thoughts? Well, the name of the game is what are the problems you're solving for the customer? More importantly, are those problems urgent or important? If they're urgent, customers want to solve them now. They're important though they might get around to them. So you look at what they're doing with Lakehouse or previous to that machine learning or previous to that automation or previous to that OLAP with OLTP. And they're merging all this capability together. If you look at Snowflake or Databricks, they're attacking one problem. You look at MySQL Heatwave, they're attacking multiple problems. So when you say, yeah, their queries are much better against the Lakehouse, in combination with other analytics, in combination with OLTP, and the fact that there are no ETLs so you're getting all this done in real time. So it's doing the query across everything in real time. You're solving multiple user and developer problems. You're increasing their ability to get insight faster. You're having shorter response times. So yeah, they really are solving urgent problems for customers. And by putting it where the customer lives, this is the brilliance of actually being multi-cloud. I know I'm backing up here a second, but by making it work in AWS and Azure, where people already live, where they already have applications, what they're saying is we're bringing it to you. You don't have to come to us to get these benefits, this value. Overall, I think it's a brilliant strategy. I give Nip and Argo Wall a huge, huge kudos for what he's doing there. So yes, what they're doing with the Lakehouse is going to put notice on Databricks and Snowflake and everyone else for that matter. Well, those are guys, Holger, you and I have talked about this. Those are the guys that are doing sort of the best to breed. They're really focused and they tend to do well, at least out of the gate, and now you've got Oracle's converged philosophy, obviously with Oracle Database, we've seen that now it's kicking in gear with Heatwave. You know, this whole thing of sweets versus best to breed, I mean, the long-term, customers tend to migrate towards sweet, but the new shiny toy tends to get the growth. How do you think this is going to play out in cloud database? Well, it's the forever never-ending story, right? In software, sweet was best of breed. And so far in the long run, sweets have always won, right? So, and sometimes they struggle again because the inherent problem of sweets is you build something larger, it has more complexity, and that means your cycles to get everything working together to integrate the test that rolled out, certified, whatever it is, takes you longer, right? And that's not the case. It's a fascinating part of what the effort around my SQL Heatwave is, that the team is out executing the previous best of breed, where they're bringing something together. Now, if they can maintain that pace, that's something to be seen. But the strategy like what Mark was saying, bring the software to the data is of course interesting and unique and totally an auricle-ish in the past, right? That had to be new database on OCI. But that's interesting part. The interesting thing on the lake house side is, right? There's three key benefits of a lake house. The first one is better reporting analytics, bring more witcher information together, like make the case for silicon angle, why do you want to see engagements for this video? We want to know when it's happening. That's a mixed transactional video media use case, right? Typical lake house use case. The next one is to build more rich applications, transactional applications, which have video on these elements in there, which are the engaging one. And the third one, and that's where a little critical and concern is, it's really the base platform for artificial intelligence, right? To run deep learning, to run things automatically because they have all the data in one place can create in one way. And that's where auricle, I know that Ron talked about in video for a moment, but that's where auricle doesn't have the strongest best story. Nonetheless, the two other main use cases of the lake house are very strong very well. Only concern is 450 terabyte sounds long. It's an arbitrary limitation. Yeah, sounds as big sound for the start and it's the first word and they can make that bigger. You don't want your lake house to be limited and the terabyte sizes or any petabyte size because you want to have the certainty I can put everything in there that I think it might be relevant without knowing what questions to ask and create those questions. Yeah, and in the early days of no schema on right, it just became a mess, but now technology has evolved to allow us to actually get more value out of that data lake, data swamp is not much more logical. But, and I want to get in a moment, I want to come back to how you think the competitors are going to respond, are they going to have to sort of do a more of a converged approach, AWS in particular. But before I do Ron, I want to ask you a question about autopilot because I heard Larry Ellison's keynote and he was talking about how most security issues are human errors with autonomy and autonomous database and things like autopilot. We take care of that. It's like autonomous vehicles, they're going to be safer. And I went, oh, maybe someday. So Oracle really tries to emphasize that every time you see an announcement from Oracle, they talk about new autonomous capabilities. How legit is it? Do people care? What about, what's new for heat wave lake house? How much of a differentiator, Ron? Do you really think autopilot is in this cloud database space? Yeah, I think it will definitely enhance the overall proposition. I don't think people are going to buy, you know, lake house exclusively because of autopilot capabilities. But when they look at the overall picture, I think it will be an added capability bonus to Oracle's benefit. And yeah, I think it's kind of one of these age old questions, how much do you automate and what is the balance to strike? And I think we all understand automatic car, autonomous car analogy that there are limitations to being able to use that. However, I think it's a tool that basically every organization out there needs to at least have or at least evaluate because it goes to the point of it helps with ease of use. It helps make automation more balanced in terms of, you know, being able to test, all right, let's automate this process and see if it works well, then we can go on and switch on autopilot for other processes. And then, you know, that allows, for example, the specialists to spend more time on business use cases versus, you know, manual maintenance of the cloud database and so forth. So I think that actually is a legitimate value proposition. I think it's just going to be a case by case basis. Some organizations are going to be more aggressive with putting automation throughout their processes, throughout their organization, and others are going to be more cautious. But it's going to be, again, something that will help the overall Oracle proposition and something that I think will be used with caution by many organizations, but other organizations are going to be like, hey, great, this is something that is really answering a real problem. And that is just easing the use of these databases, but also being able to better handle the automation capabilities and benefits that come with it without having a major screw up happen in the process of transitioning to a more automated capabilities. Now, I didn't attend Cloud World. It's just too many red eyes recently, so I passed. But one of the things I like to do at those events is talk to customers, you know, in the spirit of the truth. You know, you'd have the hallway track and you talk to customers and they say, hey, there's the good, the bad and the ugly. So did you guys, did you talk to any customers, MySQL HeatWave customers at Cloud World? And what did you learn? I don't know, Mark, did you have any luck in having some private conversations? Yeah, I had quite a few private conversations. The one thing before I get to that, I want to disagree with one point Ron made. I do believe there are customers out there buying the HeatWave service, the MySQL HeatWave service because of Autopilot. Because Autopilot is really revolutionary in many ways. In the sense for the MySQL developer, in that it auto provisions, it auto parallel loads, it auto data places, it auto shape predictions. It can tell you what machine learning models are going to tell you, it's going to give you your best results. And candidly, I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't want to give up pedantic tasks that are pain in the Kahuki, which they'd rather not do. And if it's as long as it was done right for them. So yes, I do think people are buying it because of Autopilot. And that's based on some of the conversations I had with customers at Oracle Cloud World. In fact, it was like, yeah, that's great. Yeah, we get fantastic performance, but this really makes my life easier. And I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't want to make their life easier, and it does. So yeah, I've talked to a few of them, they were excited. I asked them if they ran into any bugs, was there any difficulties in moving to it? And the answer was no in both cases. It's interesting to note, MySQL is the most popular database on the planet. Well, some will argue that it's neck and neck with SQL Server, but if you add in MariahDB and PerconaDB, which are forks of MySQL, then yeah, by far and away, it's the most popular. And as a result of that, everybody, for the most part, has typically a MySQL database somewhere in their organization. So this is a brilliant situation for anybody going after MySQL, but especially for HeatWare. And the customers I've talked to love it. I didn't find anybody complaining about it. And what about the migration? I mean, we talked about TCO earlier, does your TCO analysis include the migration cost? Or do you kind of conveniently leave that out? Or what? Well, when you look at migration costs, there are different kinds of migration costs. By the way, the worst job in the data center is the data migration manager. Forget it. No other job is as bad as that one. You get no out of boys for doing it right. And when you screw up, oh boy. So in real terms, anything that can limit data migration is a good thing. And when you look at data lake, that limits data migration. So if you're already a MySQL user, this is a pure MySQL as far as you're concerned. It's just a simple transition from one to the other. You may want to make sure nothing broke and all your tables are correct and your schema is okay. But it's all the same. So it's a simple migration. So it's pretty much a non-event. When you migrate data from an OLTP to an OLAP, that's an ETL. And that's going to take time. But you don't have to do that with MySQL anyway. So that's gone. When you start talking about machine learning, again, you may have an ETL. You may not, depending on the circumstances. But again, with MySQL heat wave, you don't and you don't have duplicate storage. You don't have to copy it from one storage container to another to be able to be used in a different database, which by the way, ultimately adds much more cost than just the other servers. So yeah, I looked at the migration and again, the users I talked to said it was a non-event. It was literally moving it from one physical machine to another if they had a new version of MySQL running on something else and just wanted to migrate it over or just hook it up or just connect it to the data. It worked just fine. Okay, so it sounds like you guys feel, we certainly heard this, my colleague, David Floyer, the semi-retired David Floyer was always very high on heat wave. So I think he's got some real legitimacy here coming from a standing start. But I want to talk about the competition, how they're likely to respond. I mean, if you're AWS and you got heat wave is now in your cloud. So there's some good aspects of that. The database guys might not like that, but the infrastructure guys probably love it. Hey, more ways to sell, you know, EC2 and Graviton. But you're going to, the database guys in AWS are going to respond. They're going to say, hey, we got Redshift. We got Aqua. What's your thoughts on, not only how that's going to resonate with customers, but I'm interested in what you guys think. Will AWS, I never say never about AWS, you know? And are they going to try to build, in your view, a converged OLAP and OLTP database? Snowflake is taking an ecosystem approach. They've added in transactional capabilities to the portfolio, so they're not standing still. What do you guys see in the competitive landscape in that regard going forward? Maybe Holger, you could start us off and anybody else who wants to can chime in. Happy to, well, you mentioned Snowflake last, so let's start there. I think Snowflake is imitating that strategy, right? They're building out the original data warehouse and the cloud's tasking of project to really a proposition to have other data available there because AI is relevant for everybody. Ultimately, people keep data in the cloud for ultimately running AI. So you see the same sweet kind of like level strategy. It's going to be a little harder because of the original positioning. How much would people know that you're doing other stuff? And I just, as a former developer, manager of developers, I just don't see the speed at the moment happening at Snowflake to become really competitive to Oracle. On the flip side, putting my Oracle head on for a moment, back to you, Mark and Ron, right? What could Oracle still add? Because the big, big things, right? The traditional chasms in the database world, they have built everything, right? So I really scratched my head and gave Nipon and Haritama and CloudLoad say, like, what could you be building? And Nipon was very concerned that, yeah, let's get the lake house thing done. It's going to spring next year. And then AWS is really hard because AWS value proposition is these small innovation teams, right? The fabled two-pizza teams, which can be fit by two pizzas, not large teams, right? And you need large teams to build these suites with lots of functionalities to make sure they work together. They're consistent. They have the same UX on the administration side. They can consume the same way. They have the same API registry. Can't even stop going where the synergy comes to play over the suite. So it's going to be really, really hard for them to change that. But AWS is super pragmatic. They always buy themself that they listen to customers. If they learn from customer suite as a proposition, I would not be surprised of AWS trying to bring things closer together, bring more technology together. Yeah. Well, how about, can we talk about multi-cloud? If, again, Oracle, very on Oracle, as you said before, but let's look forward, you know, half a year or a year. What do you think about Oracle's moves in multi-cloud in terms of what kind of penetration they're going to have in the marketplace? You saw a lot of presentations at Cloud World. You know, we've looked pretty closely at the Microsoft Azure deal. I think that's really interesting. I've called it a little bit of early days of a super cloud. What impact do you think this is going to have on the marketplace? But both, and think about it, within Oracle's customer base, I have no doubt they'll do great there, but what about beyond its existing install base? What do you guys think? Ryan, you want to jump on that? Go ahead. Go ahead, Ryan. No, I think it's an excellent point. I think it aligns with what you've been talking about in terms of Lakehouse. I think Lakehouse will enable Oracle to pull more customers, more bicycle customers onto the Oracle platforms. And I think we're seeing all the signs pointing toward Oracle being able to make more inroads into the overall market. And that includes garnishing customers from the leaders. In other words, because they are coming in as an innovator, an alternative to the AWS proposition, the Google Cloud proposition, that they have less to lose. And there's a result they can really drive multi-cloud messaging to resonate with not only their existing customers, but also to be able to, to that question Dave is posing, actually garnish customers onto their platform. And that includes naturally MySQL, but also OCI, and so forth. So that's how I'm seeing this playing out. I think, again, Oracle's reporting is indicating that. And I think what we saw with Oracle Cloud World is definitely validating the idea that Oracle can make more waves in the overall market in this regard. You know, I floated this idea of super cloud. It's kind of tongue-in-cheek, but I think there is some merit to it in terms of building on top of hyperscale infrastructure and abstracting some of that complexity. And one of the things that I'm most interested in is industry clouds. And an Oracle acquisition of Cerner, I was struck by Larry Ellison's keynote. It was like, I don't know, an hour and a half and an hour and 15 minutes was focused on healthcare transformation. It was so vertical. Right? And so, yeah, so you've got Oracle's, got some industry chops. And then you think about what they're building with not only OCI, but then you've got MySQL, you can now run in dedicated regions. You've got ADB on Exadata, cloud of custom. You can put that on-prem in your data center. And you look at what the other hyperscalers are doing. I say other hyperscalers. I've always said Oracle's not really a hyperscaler, but they've got a cloud, so they're in the game. But you can't get BigQuery on-prem. You look at Outposts, it's very limited in terms of the database support. And again, that will evolve. But now you've got, Oracle's got, they announced Alloy. We can white label their cloud. So I'm interested in what you guys think about these moves, especially the industry cloud. We see Walmart is doing sort of their own cloud. You've got Goldman Sachs doing a cloud. You guys, what do you think about that and what role does Oracle play? Any thoughts? Yeah, let me jump on that for a moment, especially with the MySQL. By making that available on multiple clouds, what they're doing is this follows the philosophy they've had the past with doing cloud at customer, taking the application and the data and putting it where the customer lives. If it's on-premise, it's on-premise. If it's in the cloud, it's in the cloud. By making the MySQL heat wave essentially a plug compatible with any other MySQL as far as your database is concerned, and then giving you that integration with OLAP and ML and Data Lake and everything else, then what you've got is a compelling offering. You're making it easier for the customer to use. So I looked at the difference between MySQL and the Oracle database. MySQL is going to capture more market share for them. You're not going to find a lot of new users for the Oracle database. Yeah, there are always going to be new users. Don't get me wrong. But it's not going to be a huge growth, whereas MySQL heat wave is probably going to be a major growth engine for Oracle going forward, not just in their own cloud, but in AWS and in Azure and on-premise over time. Eventually it'll get there. It's not there now, but it will. They're doing the right thing on that basis. They're taking the services. And when you talk about multi-cloud and making them available where the customer wants them, not forcing them to go where you want them, if that makes sense. And as far as where they're going in the future, I think they're going to take a page out of what they've done with the Oracle database. They'll add things like JSON and XML and time series and spatial over time. They'll make it a complete converge database like they did with the Oracle database. The difference being Oracle database will scale bigger and will have more transactions and be somewhat faster. And MySQL will be for anyone who's not on the Oracle database. They're not stupid, that's for sure. They've done JSON already, right? But I'll give you that. They could add graph and time series, right? That's what we're doing, right? That's something we've done absolutely well. That's a sort of a logical move, right? Right. But that's a kid ourselves, right? I mean, it has worked in Oracle's favor, right? 10x, 20x the amount of R&D, which is in the MySQL space has been poor that trying to snatch workloads away from Oracle by starting with IBM 30 years ago, 20 years ago, Microsoft and it didn't work, right? Database applications are extremely sticky. When they run, you don't want to touch them and they grow them, right? So that doesn't mean that heatfave is not an attractive offering, but it will be net new things, right? And what works in MySQL's heatfaves favor a little bit is it's not the massive enterprise applications which have, like we did the analysis, like you might be only running 30% on Oracle, but the connections and the interface into that is like 70, 80% of your enterprise. Do you take it out and it's like a spaghetti ball where you say, ah, no, I really don't want to do all that, right? You don't have that massive part with the heatfave SQL kind of like database, which are more smaller tactical in comparison. But still, I don't see them taking so much share. They will be growing because of an attractive value proposition. Quickly on the multi-cloud, right? I think it's not really multi-cloud if you give people the chance to run your offering on different clouds, right? You can run it there. The multi-cloud advantage is when the Uber offering comes out which allows you to do things that cross those installations, right? I can migrate data. I can create data across something like Google has done with BigQuery Omni. I can run predictive models or even AI models in different places and distribute them, right? And Oracle is paving the road for that by being available on these clouds but the multi-cloud capability of a database which knows I'm running on different clouds that does still get to be built there. Yeah, and that's the super cloud concept that I flowed and I've always said sort of snowflake with a single global instance is sort of headed in that direction and maybe has a lead. What's the issue with that, Mark? Yeah, the problem with that version of the multi-cloud is clouds that charge egress fees. As long as they charge egress fees to move data between clouds, it's going to make it very difficult to do a real multi-cloud implementation. Even snowflake, which runs multi-cloud has to pass on the egress fees to their customer when data moves between clouds and that's really expensive. I mean, there was one customer I talked to who is beta testing for them, the MySQL heat wave in AWS. The only reason they didn't want to do that until it was running on AWS is the egress fees were so great to move it to OCI that they couldn't afford it. Egress fees are the big issue. But Mark, the point might be you might want to run a query and only get the results set back, right? It was much more tinier, which has been the answer before for low latency between the clouds, a problem which we sometimes still have but mostly don't have, right? And I think in general, this egress fee is coming down based on the Oracle general egress fee move and it's very hard to justify those, right? But it's not about moving data as a multi-cloud high value use case, it's about doing intelligent things with that data, right? Putting it into other places, replicating it, I'm saying the same thing what you said before, running remote queries on that, analyzing it, running AI on it, running AI models on it, that's the interesting thing across administered in the same way, taking things out, making sure compliance happens, making sure when Ron says, I don't want to be American anymore, I want to be in the European cloud, that this data gets migrated, right? So those are the interesting value use case which are really, really hard for enterprise to program hand-by-hand by developers and they would love to have out of the box and that's yet the innovation to come to, we have to come to see but the first step to get there is that your software runs in multiple clouds and that's what Oracle is doing so well for my SQL heap. Guys, I mean, go ahead. You're a Ron. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example. Amazing amount of data knowledge and brainpower in this market guys, I really want to thank you for coming on to theCUBE, Ron, Holger, Mark, always a pleasure to have you on, I really appreciate your time. Well, all the Germanic last names we're very happy about, Romanian glass, the moderator, thanks Dave for moderating us. All right, we'll see you guys around, safe travels to all and thank you for watching this power panel, the truth about MySQL Heatwave on theCUBE, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.