 Good afternoon, everyone who is at the other side of the screen, welcome. Welcome to this event towards a fair tourism that is low in carbon. Thank you so much for being here. These are topics that are very interesting to all of us because we all travel or we are asked to travel. It has to do with economy and bienven. My name is Bossa Tristana and I will be the mother for this event. First of all, I wanted to thank La Casa Encendida for this series, La Casa On, that they have organized for one month and a half for allowing for these topics to be included. I also wanted to thank the Foundation Transición Verde Green Transition and the European Greens Foundation for organizing this web round table, this virtual round table, which is what we are expected to do in this new normal world that we are all in. So we have been closing our frontiers for months, closing regions, closing cities, we're even been locked down in our homes. So this is a situation that has actually gotten to us when the capacity to travel for human beings had broken all records. We were now capable of moving millions of people from one part of the planet to the other constantly and we're even planning space travels. But now COVID-19 has come here and has cut our wings. So countries like Spain have suffered a lot. We have gone from 75,000 tourist visitors in 2019 to only 18 million. So tourism represents 12 percent of our GDP in Spain and it is a sector that has completely sunk. But this climate, this economic crisis has to add up to the climate crisis that also has an impact on tourism and tourism also has an impact due to the emissions that it generates and other impacts is having an impact on climate increasing it. So it is a phenomenon and a sector that are very much intertwined and who's best to talk about this than the speakers that we currently have here today around this table. I wanted to give the warmest welcome to everyone who's at the other side of the Atlantic. I know that there are people listening to us from the other side of the Atlantic. Thank you so much for being connected to this round table. I know that there are many tourism students who are looking at what we're going to be tackling here. They're the future of the sector and hope that this will be of interest to them. And I am now going to introduce to you the three people who are here today with us who obviously will be answering to your questions if you want to write them down on the chat box as the debate goes along. We have Aurora Pedro Bueno. Aurora, good afternoon. How are you? She is the director of New Green Transition at the University of Valencia. She's a professor of the university and she's a consultant of the World Tourism Organization. She is part of the quality certification for tourism education and she is in different teams that usually try to promote the quality of tourism. She is perfect for this for this debate. She has organized courses on this topic in any different countries. Many of them in Latin America according to what I have seen and she has published lots of articles on on that topic. So thank you so much Aurora for being here with us this afternoon. We also have Javier Benallas. Hello Javier, how are you? Javier is a professor of ecology at the University Autonomous of Madrid and he's a member of the advisory council of the Spanish Network for Sustainable Development a few days ago, three days ago. They actually presented the last report issued by this network that talks about the impact and how they are fulfilling or not fulfilling the sustainable development goals in the in different in different city councils in Spain over a hundred city councils. He was the vice vector for environmental quality at the University of Autonomous and he is currently the co-director of master for the management of protected and natural spaces. I have coincided with him in the Antarctic and he has been very much involved in the evolution of tourism in the Antarctic because although it is very far away it is one of the spaces where as a percentage tourism is going up. This year is also weird for this tourism in that region but I also wanted to say that he's the co-author of a guide to the degree of involvement of tourism with these sustainable development goals. So he's going to be able to tell us lots of things in that sense. Thank you so much Javier for being here with us today. And lastly I would like to say that we will have round this table although she's not present here yet because she had prior commitments and she could not make it from the beginning. I don't know if she's now present. Karima Deli is an MP, a European MP since 2009 for the Greens ever since her second mandate in 2014. She was member of the Transportation Commission and Tourism Commission and she is the president of this commission currently. In 2016 another sector that she works in since 2016 is that of Transportation and Tourism. She's a member of the commission. I'm sorry no research with regards to admissions in the auto sector, automobile sector. She is actually in charge of the diesel gate as we call it. So it has to do with a mission and pollution. She knows a lot about mobility and we know that there is no tourism without mobility. So she's also going to be able to enrich this debate as a European MP. She's going to be able to tell us what is happening in Europe and what are future perspectives. So I don't know if Karima in this last few minutes has been able to connect and I will introduce her to you if she hasn't and you will be able to see her in the screen and we will be able to ask her questions. Okay so to begin breaking the ice I wanted to start with a question to Aurora. I'm afraid I'll be breaking the ice with you around this table because we are actually at a time in history where tourism has completely sunk the ground over but in Spain it's quite significant due to what I said previously because it is a very high percentage of our GDP. So according to information that we have over 22 million jobs have been lost in the EU that are linked to the sector. So a few hours ago I was hearing in the news that part of the problem of the people who live in Morocco in certain areas, reasons why young people are going all the way to the Canary Islands is because the tourism has also sunk in Morocco and they have lost their way to make ends meet. And I would like to ask you this crisis, this touristic crisis I am focusing now in Spain as well would have been different if we had had a different perspective with regards to the sector or was it unavoidable and could you tell us what answers are being given globally, politically to try and find an exit, a solution to all of this. Well good afternoon everyone. I think that this crisis in tourism has been one of the of the phenomenons that has to be highlighted most in this crisis because I think that one of the sectors that has been most impacted has been tourism not just in Spain because we're the first or one of the first countries with regards to tourism reception we're usually the second but I usually do nuances in that hierarchy but we are I would say we're if not the most visited country we are the leader in many aspects of tourism and as you were saying other in other areas such as Morocco as well and the world over in general because tourism is linked to mobility and it is impossible to conceive the tourism without having to travel somewhere so during this pandemic where we have limited contact and we have we have promoted or asked for people to be socially distanced well somehow they have prevented us from from traveling and from being tourists so I honestly think that this was unforeseeable this was completely unforeseeable and it is very complicated nowadays until we don't have a solution such a vaccine or a treatment some definitive drug we cannot have we cannot make any forecasts plans to dynamizing tourism have been fought for a very long time in summer we had a plan in Spain which was I believe to hurt it was not timely it was a response to the pressure that entrepreneurs were making because we have to understand obviously that there are lots of people who are being impacted by this lots of people who are closing down their businesses lots of people who are losing their jobs so I understand obviously that there was lots of pressure there people were very worried and there was a need to give an answer from the government but I think that it was too hurried this plan was too hurried and in a pandemic situation such as the one that we are living it was very difficult to dynamize tourism so I'm going to leave it at that for now okay maybe they should have waited a bit shouldn't they yes yes I personally think that they should have waited I mean politically it was not advisable to wait because as I said it was obvious within the sector that there was a high demand and a very strong pressure for the government to do something and they were giving examples of Greece, Portugal and so on and it was as though we we were not doing anything which was not really true either but I I had the feeling that it was a plan that that needed to be done obviously because if we could help we should do it but it was very complicated it was very difficult for the tourism to really have an impact in summer a significant impact it was too hasty and from a european level I was asking you about the european answer how have you seen that you've not well I think that what haven't had is an answer by everyone Europe is still still not reacting and with regards to tourism I think that we think about tourism because it affects mainly the south southern countries of Europe but we need a more more solid response by the EU a more decided answer and that would happen and I actually want to say this we have said it often but we have Karima here and she could talk about that but I think that she could really illustrate the situation but I think that we need to have a european policy for tourism it was something that was this that was talked about a few years ago but they decided that it wouldn't be a european policy that they said that that it should be local it should be national but I think that it would be good for Europe to to understand the relevance that tourism has as an economic sector yes okay so Karima is here welcome welcome hello how are you very well and how are you well we're happy to have you here okay so Aurora was saying that maybe you could tell us a bit more about this about about this do you think that at some point we will be able to have a european touristic policy for all of european if possible a fair policy and low in carbon good morning good morning everyone okay um sorry I don't speak very well Spanish really uh so I speak in in English okay the side for you yeah okay that's right so tourism is one of the the main engines of the Spanish economy but the current crisis of the covid 19 other economic crisis of 2028 did before I've shown the fragility of the sector and I've called into questions the high dependence of the GDP on this activity in Europe this activity is 12.5 percent it's very enormous sectors there is a constant talks of saving the economy focusing on saving the hotel or the catering industry uh hotel airline without considering a new alternative except for occasional solution while waiting for the business to return to what it was with the arrival of the vaccines but the situation requires a more profound reflection because at this moment we need a reflection about must tourism I say that because almost 80 84 millions in Spain in in 2019 as a black virtue not only because the pandemic will make before and after but because there is another parallel crisis the climate crisis yes which also affects the sector because it generates water shortage a decrease on climate comfort uh lots of the of the beach the beauty of do the right thing sea levels and increases in extreme weather phenomena phenomena fluids so in in turn my responsibility we need to change this sector is a time substantial about tourism what is it concretely local tourism what is it concretely the tourism as an activity generate environmental damage just to ensure of course environmental pollution increases its weight so in this context we are going to analyze the I believe the lesson we need to in to analyze this lesson that we can draw from the health in pandemic in order we think we think attain toward a far low carbon tourism model that is prepared to face the major climate economic and social challenges of our time and this is sustainable in the long term so we need to prepare this is not only for now but it's a future too that the reason why my transport committee we created a tax force in tourism special like to say two very important goal first of all we cannot we cannot do the new political without the actor the local actors first of all and we need definition what we want to tomorrow what is concretely what are the criteria the indicators about the sustainable local tourism and the last but not the least because during during this crisis we need investment we need to help these actors of tourism because it's a catastrophe the link between this crisis with employment is a catastrophe that the reason why at this moment in the european budget i fight with the council to create for the first time just a new line in the budget specifically for the tourism sectors but we need to fight it's not it's very hard but you were actually mentioning the local actors that they have to be taken into account and then that it needs to be a low carbon tourism and the tourism for the future and i would like to tell us what's the current situation what's the situation of this tourism do we really have a tourism that can be sustainable that and what's the car what are the characteristics of this tourism and could it be extrapolated to to other initiatives to more um general initiatives yes hello everyone aurora karima um it's a pleasure to share this this virtual space for the exchange of such hot topic such a hot topic because i believe this is a key topic for the future i don't know if tourism is the first industry world industry above oil and if it's not it will be very soon and they were the it was the sector that had the greatest growth growth rates so this is a world industry that has been impacted by this crisis and we now have to rethink this crisis we have to refocus because obviously it was generating problems something that grows so fast and so much obviously has collateral effects as we usually say we do not contemplate those collateral effects obviously they will end up generating important problems so so we were giving alternatives to tourism in the in the last few years the way the best way to compensate the problems that tourism generates are the carbon footprint and to pay for that problem that tourism is generating i we did a study in the regards to the emissions that an average tourist would produce there was obviously for instance um uh spaniard who wants to retard to Antarctica how how many emissions would they emit in 15 days and it was around six tons which is the equivalent of the emissions of a spaniard during a whole year so in 15 days he emits as much as he would during a whole year in his day today and i'm a western country with a high level of consumption obviously now the price right now in the market i don't know how much uh the ton the co2 ton is worth but i think it's around 25 30 years so if we were to decide 30 years per six tons it would be 180 euros let's say 200 to round it up so that trip to the Antarctic it would cost eight to 10 thousand euros to that tourist so those 200 euros would be two percent of the trip now the taxes that are being now paid in hotels in Barcelona or in mayorka which are tourism taxes to try and and compensate uh the damage caused by tourism are around one to three years depending on the hotel category and we're still talking about one percent so we are already applying some measures and we should strengthen those measures we should support the proposal that carima is making biggest tourism that is a sector that generates environmental problems should be able to compensate somehow those damages that it causes by having these direct or indirect taxes that will allow us to invest that money in compensating the damages so i am in i i mainly work on tourism and nature tourism or in natural spaces and not so much city tourism but just like you when you pay to enter a museum you should pay to enter natural spaces or at least have some sort of compensation so that we can better manage those spaces whether it is the Antarctic or the Ordeza natural park or the Galapagos actually the Galapagos have been using this tax it's a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars and it has an important repercussion not so much in the national park but also the population that lives in the island so the tourism in the previous model because i think that this crisis is going to make us rethink everything in spain this summer cantabria and asturias have have broken the records when other regions had a big crisis well rural tourism and nature tourism are the ones that were working best so i think that it is the right time to start thinking that tourism in this new scenario is going to be different and i think the time has come for us to think what changes need to be made and we can think about the document that we have created that goes a bit in that sense in that direction where should we mark the way for the tourism of the future in that sense i would also like to ask aurora when as a consultant she talks about sustainable tourism what does she refer to when you talk about sustainable tourism what is it you mean from your point of view what should sustainable tourism include is it just that is it just having a green tax a touristic tax tourism tax to be used to to mitigate the damages caused by tourism or what other elements could be included here well i think that the definition of this of sustainable tourism is one of the big gaps that we still have and mainly in the field of of bodies such as the the world tourism organization we have still definitions that are a bit vague i actually participated in argentina in an online fair which was called intelligent destinations and my intervention was just to insist that if we're talking so much about intelligent destinations new technologies big data and data in general then let's try and really benefit from that so that we can have a better management of destinations i think that this is a time when we have to think if destination management and all of this sustainability concept can start being included in indicators and managing indicators what why should we use big data just to know um how much is being consumed with visas and what people buy and so on because that's something that obviously the market uses because they're free to investigate if they if they want to but i also want to know what impact temperatures are having how can we see the future with the increase of the water level the water rises and coastal destinations that we have in spain are very urbanized so a carbon footprint is something that we need to consider the destination management has to go through the development of indicators but very specific indicators that allow me to compare what uh tourist leaves because we obviously have to eat and and destinations need to keep on doing tourism but we need to compare what tourists leave with the damage that they cause galicia is the in galicia they have the only city that has actually done an evaluation of carbon i'm sorry no it's valencia valencia who did it and it was valencia who did it and something that i found interesting were the methodologies the methodologies need to be advanced we have we have to keep on working on them but for instance with regards to cities especially cities that have a coastline there is a phenomenon lady that is wearing me quite a bit which is the the cruise phenomenon these cruises that are a sort of hotel on the water that uh does not really add value to the cities but they have an important impact and we don't know what's the carbon footprint because we spent an hour in the city so we don't know what's the carbon footprint in that city i really like the study the valencia study it's a first big step towards measuring this these sorts of actions and and that allows me to go on the line that everyone is is mentioning which is having having policies that will allow us to to set up taxes green taxes so those who fluid pay that's the basic principle and the carbon footprint should be an element needed for the management of destinations and tourism and i also wanted to say mass tourism is something that we will touch upon later i'm sure but i want to talk about low-cost tourism in spain it's unthinkable for us to continue with a model that has flights that that can be five euros worth or 20 euros that's it's not because of the sort of tourism that comes it's because of the impact that it has and usually people who fly well don't really spend much in the cities that they visit so we have to try and find tourists that are a bit more select or at least that they are aware of the fact that they need to spend more so we are not sacrificing and i'm sorry for the for the expression but we're not sacrificing our our customs or our well-being rural well-being or coastal well-being to receive a sort of tourism that is more of a predator a predator than anything else not in every case but that's the big challenge that we have in our spanish model apart from the carbon footprint and also including taxes and restrictions through prices because the end consumers only react to prices unfortunately okay so in that sense carima who actually works in mobility i'm sure she can tell us what initiatives are being put in place are there measures are we promoting that low-cost tourism where public subsidies to airlines recently we read the news saying that the impact in emissions of airlines in europe is three times bigger than what we suspected so it's actually something that worries us much the impact of aviation but at the same time we're still promoting the possibility of flying with low prices which as aurora was saying is what this allows for this low-cost tourism to exist this tourism that we have here in spain for binge drinking and so on they only come here to spend as little as possible and and they live an important footprint i don't know if in europe they're considering the situation and they're taking measures apart from this tax that you were mentioning and the line in the budget are there other measures do you think that something is changing do you think that we're still continuing in the same the same way we had before these months when we had stopped i completely agree with what uh yes aurora but a big question is what what is the massification of global tourism we have a big problem with this when you talk about tourism and low-cost the link is very easy that the reason why we need i believe now for example airlines airlines are already received public ads it's not normal normally it's 25 billions euro 25 billions it's too much that's the reason why airport for me is very a strong temporary temporary solution to a long-term problem inside of using a harmful model we should work in transition strategy and means of financing that the reason why one of my big fights in europe when you talk about aviation is the time to push i'm a partisan of carers and tax carers and tax why because at this moment 40 percent 40 percent of the cost of low-cost company is fuel it explains how firms with such a business model benefit from the last tax oven in europe carers and while they are carers and at this moment we have a tax we have a tax on diesel and petrol on haul on gas that carers and is tax exempt throughout europe this taxation is in a section on carers and tax up to back to 1944 when member state party to have the chicago convention agree to promote international civil aviation back then the argument was what it could contribute the threat friendship and understanding between nation and people of this of this world but today facing the climate emergency we cannot tolerate this tactical that the reason why i cannot understand why europe don't want to push this carers and tax we have a carers and tax in a united state in japan in russia etc such just just a just a just a one very important number such a tax will reduce by 12 percent studio emission around for 70 17 million ton per year and this measure will bring around 27 billions 27 billions of euro each year each year for only 0.33 cents light liter it's crazy it's crazy this what what can do now we need to push we need to very clear campaign about these carers and tax i believe absolutely it's an initiative that we would be glad to see approved because we would be able to reduce emissions and we would get at least some funds to fight against the impacts javier was saying javier vanallas was saying that with regards to promoting tourism tourism internal tourism in spain we have in areas in the interior of spain that are quite empty areas that have been marginalized in the world of tourism except for certain places where everyone goes which in the end suffer as well due to the impact of tourists all of the people that go see them but other areas are unknown and they're not so widely visited could you tell us if the model that we currently have a tourism model that we all want to travel we all like to travel if it were to be transferred to other areas do you think that we could have impacts in those areas as well could we could we could we find a way to to to to reach a balance so that we have a sustainable tourism well doubtlessly yes i think that if we change the destination and those tourists now start traveling to natural spaces then the problems are going to increase i always give the example of island Iceland Iceland in three years time went from having 200 000 tourists to three million tourists Iceland is the the the best nature destination because they don't have anything from a cultural standpoint they don't have cultural elements that are considered relevant enough to be visited what you visit is the the the geysers and the cascades the waterfalls natural environments so these environments that start receiving two billion people because you know that they all visit the same waterfalls the same geysers the same everything so in the end these these places are not prepared and they don't have they don't have the means to accept all those people and then they're damaged and it's very difficult to to deteriorate them so so the nature or rural tourism i think it's positive i think it's good i think it's good for it to happen but we need to be prepared we need to be able to manage models to manage that tourism even more so in urban environments because urban environments can really welcome that tourism but natural environments are more fragile and it's more difficult for them to to welcome that tourism so it's good in the sense that we can make tourism less massive let's tourism mass tourism if it's small houses that that welcome our family since we they didn't have hotels to welcome those three million tourists then there were rooms getting ready all over the country and that wealth was redistributed all over the country so that they could get out of the crisis that Iceland had suffered from so tourism was one of the ways to get out of the crisis because the wealth was well distributed by creating these housing or or touristic housing in private homes so this model i believe has this element this positive element of distributing wealth because you know that tourism is usually controlled by big companies or and if we decide to do a small-scale tourism that generates more income that would allow for instance four rural areas that are now getting empty and if we now start going to that empty Spain that is now quite an on vogue in the media then they could have a complementary income an important revenue so in rural areas right now in Spain rural tourism is the main element that can set population in the area that's for the regions not to be left without population because that is also a serious problem so it does have positive aspects it has negative aspects as well and as we as every time we think about any topic we have to highlight the positive and we have to control the negative aspects but there are negative aspects and we cannot let them evolve in an uncontrolled way because if we do not detect the problem we will have that problem a much more complex problem that will be more difficult to solve okay we have some questions here on our chat which i'm glad to see and i encourage you all to send questions to our speakers and it comes all the way from the Canary Islands from Gran Canaria Carlos Robaina is asking you i don't know if Aurora could answer or one of you one of the three could answer from the from Gran Canaria now that COVID has had an impact in the touristic sector especially in the islands do you think that this is the right time for the hotel business to implement more circular economy measures within their own establishments and how can we incentivize for them to do that change which is a completely radical change in many cases i don't know Aurora Javier and i don't know maybe you could answer this question well i think that this crisis has come at the right time for all of us to think and rethink things well all crises are the the right to think and rethink what scares me is this pressure to get out of the crisis and i understand it because people are really suffering and we need to be conscious and aware of that but this temptation of going back to the old patterns or the old models of production to call them something touristic patterns i think that's not it's not going to be there i think that this is a very delicate moment first of all hunger and need are not the best counselors and that's what scares me but it is the time to completely change things we need a drastic change and two years ago i was at a meeting a series of meetings that the ministry hosted with the secretary of tourism and one of the things that i that i said i wasn't very successful they didn't really listen to me we said that if we were leaders in tourism in touristic products and touristic policy because we have been copied all over the world why don't we decide to be leaders as well in a sustainable tourism development why don't we take a step because i know that this involves when we talk about sustainability nobody dares say that at some point we have to reduce we have to limit and even forbid and this is something that people don't dare say and that is why we have definitions that are so politically correct such as the brunand report and so on and all these works that have been published sustainability to me is to start thinking about certain things we have to reduce flows in certain places limited in certain places we have for instance in internal areas for instance but here in the valencian community we can't get out of valencia so the touristic authorities are not thinking about having access control for natural areas because they are completely saturated especially during the weekends so so we're going to management models up till now the management models have been almost exclusively based on marketing and the creation of products and i think that we have to advance i think that um we have we always have a management body that focuses on these other aspects that is a bit more market and then the political side of things and the political side of things needs to start acting and that's why i wanted to talk about valencia because for the first time they have measured the carbon footprint in a city and although there are some limitations and some points that i haven't seen such as um cruises and the little impact that they have because they don't stay much in city we have to start measuring these things and how we how we react and we all need to participate or things are going to go badly obviously who is going to do this who is going to who is going to set the limits because it's very difficult it's not going to be simple and as for a circular economy i think it's a wonderful idea i think that right now there are some amazing ideas not not simply circular economy one of the things that the tourism organization i mean they have given some recommendations but before the pandemic i was in a campaign to reduce the use of plastics i don't know how that ended what the campaign was but we have to start with all of these actions in a very very strong way we have to be we have to react because we can't detect micro plastics and human beings due to the water that we drink yes and beings in the Antarctica as Javier knows very well in remote places in the arctic they're all over the place those small plastics and i had a question here for Karima that has been sent to us from another touristic place which is Mallorca in the Balearic Islands and let me because i okay here's a question well it's for Karima or some other speaker but since she talked about the taxes they say you talk about fiscal measures taxes in the Balearic Islands we were pioneers in setting up taxes when we had a tax in the 2000 and also the need to to manage the situation but thinking about the future and in the mid to long term shouldn't we just focus on a degrowth of tourism and that maybe could be in line with what Aurora was saying now we we need a more time just for this question i'm sorry yeah because it's a big debate really a big debate when you talk about for example and the the the the financial aspect into a reason but we need each time we needed a short term and a long term and when you talk about fiscal problem for me it's a we we are the positive experience you know about sustainable development in Balearic is Iceland for example you know that you know the system who were substantive be careful because for me it's sustainable tourism is not tourism that would assume is environmental responsibility by donating a few euros for a charity for a charity cause it's not this it's not this for me carbon of of of setting can have a direct impact on destination i can be a pretext of a culture exchange between travelers and local around local environmental issue during our our last commission meeting an actor of in sardine in Liberté is an association in France proposed to integrate this practice into the program of the state and the whole territory in sardinia for example travelers can spend a day ticket care of a forest a long long side sardinian shape shape earth and forester and i think it's an ideal which make more sense really and i would like to come back in your very interesting question about what say uh or about the crisis about covid because i say we need we need to think another model now what i say that because the cover the covered funding as our mobility globally in a in a present scale coding because we have the liberal market mechanism of global tourism to be severely disrupted disrupted by this covid it's crazy but it's true in terms of situation is leading to decline of certain mainstreaming business formats and and and a modern order and i believe this crisis this crisis as therefore brought up to a fork in the road giving us the perfect opportunity to select a new direction to move forward for for adopting a more sustainable path and and we are just just this example this summer it was crazy in france in germany in spain what's happened this this summer is true that local local and slow tourism where one of the main answer to the crisis just during the summer is crazy but people hop on the hags and say wow in spain we are another region very exciting or another country very exciting it's not necessary to take a plan go to other place uh in uh in american states or in uh in china etc we can open just a local perspective that's the reason why i believe we need to change the paradigm real of paradigm i do it is be enough to forest a new ecosystem of post-capitalism economy and collaborative business model but memory following crises and digital tend to be short and sooner rather than later things return to the statical it is a big risk of our situation the other reason why i believe this pause this crisis has covered we have a pause we find ourselves in at this moment offer the possibility of sketching a new way forward in the year to come that there is a why we must of course caution that for her that should not be limited only to intellectual reflection on temporary building exercise whether we shall start taking responsibility by being active participant and enabling sustainable change to happen that i say again we need you we need to push your government we need to push the local the local institution we need to push whole actors why i say that's because it's very hard it's very big sectors we need all participants to change this paradigm it's not easy but we need to do that now sorry rosa for the time javier kiki re kiki re además de completante rosa seems to to be willing to complete this yes i think this is an important topic the degrowth of tourism on the one hand i'm not optimistic i think that as soon as the vaccine gets here people are going to want to travel much more and other javier i'm sorry we cannot hear you we cannot hear you well is there a sound problem was it me you cannot hear me i'm sorry they asked me to take it off but i will put it once again okay i was saying that i think that the situation the degrowth situation is not going to happen actually it's going to go the other way it's going to increase because they said that the virus was going to make us better i am convinced that when the vaccine gets here people will be like crazy traveling everywhere and tourism is going to shoot over the data that we had pre pre covid and with regards to this question tourism is not sustainable because we live in a non-sustainable world and tourism is just a reflection of global society and i like to always give a very clear example i was born in 1958 so i have i i am 62 and there is 7.5 billion inhabitants and planet earth when i was born 62 years ago there were only 20 27 uh 27 000 million so so in just one generation which is my generation we have gone from 2 2 500 to 7 7 to from 2.5 billion to 7.5 billion is it possible to stop this growth and that the capacity to consume and to travel has multiplied itself an enormous way in these last few years so so trying to put the brakes on tourism is not enough we have to rethink the economy and the social and economical system that we're in that we're in the amount of people that are on earth with a level of consumption that we have leads us to a situation where our children are our grandchildren we're going to are going to live in a far worse than than we did because they will not be able to to enjoy the environments that we have enjoyed my son traveled all through china last summer from one point to the other and he said i was never alone it was always filled with people so many people that it was actually difficult to be there i'm from Toledo and i have suffered Toledo as a as a touristic destination for decades now so i think that it is the time has come for us to think to think but i think that the society is not is not following the direction that we want to set for it we're the minority we can say whatever we want here we can preach whatever we want but we are preaching over a desert a general desert and most of the politicians and most of the society do not want to listen to these messages why because they want to enjoy life and they don't really care they care they don't care at all about what their children and grandchildren are going to enjoy so we're not thinking about a vision of society as a whole we are we have a selfish vision of our current presence in planet earth and well there are some psychologists who say that the best sustainable tourism is benedorm to get all the tourists in the less in the in the smallest space possible so that they destroy less and this is a concept i mean considering all the people that exist from an ecological point of view it's funny isn't it but but that's so the concept of sustainable tourism is it can be debated in Galapagos for instance we were there doing a study on emissions on carbon footprint tourism carbon footprint and the most ecological hotel was the most expensive and the one that had most carbon emissions for tourists so you can see that there's a counterposition there with concepts well with regards to this there is another question when you were saying that society is not listening the politicians are not listening you're a scientist right and there is a question here that says do we see in the tourist section a sector uh Aurora who you're an advisor and you work for the world tourism organization is there a relationship between the touristic companies and the scientific world are there some connections or are these links very weak jose amacia is asking this question if there is a link between tourism and science well not really not much i started working and collaborating with the world tourism organization because a few years ago there was a person who was very relevant both in the Spanish tourism as well as in the world organization who decided that universities and training centers needed to be in the world tourism organization why well because there was uh well the the training we had was quite weak it was not harmonized from one country to the next there was a constant confusion between what was um catering and and restoration and tourism but we have made quite a bit of progress but i don't think that there is connection the greatest connection is mainly with with marketing and how to generate more more more so this vision of let's create more and well i have always obviously it's the only thing that we have left in spain to think well instead of having more tourists more international tourists could we get less who spend more because we have sacrificed so much i have i come from valencia from the coastline and the coast is completely full it's completely urbanized but not just in valencia all over the place so to me this is a very important sacrifice it's a very important sacrifice so there isn't really much link between tourism and natural science or experimental science what i would like to say is that well javier has talked about the fact that there is resistance and i completely agree with this crisis finishes everyone is going to start traveling and i include myself because because i i know i i am going to keep on traveling and i'm sure about i'm sure of this that's on the one hand because we want to enjoy life despite all of the things that we have said and despite the fact that i am aware of what happens but and i will be responsible but i still want to travel to some places that i want to get to but i think that people want to have fun they want to enjoy and just like we created emissions markets why can't we create some sort of mechanism and each citizen in the world will have to pay or will have x emissions or carbon will will have this or that carbon footprint we could do that because prices there costs just there and there are mechanisms to do it but what we need to have is well there is a pressure of the industry in certain lobbies who are not going to allow for that to happen because they are reluctant to change we have to understand it we have to work on it and this is where governments and institutions have to help it's not just us we we ask them to think we can be aware we can change our way of thing but but it's mainly governments and institutions and the EU i believe has a fundamental role not just the spanish government but the EU so that's an open road the EU and it seems that we're making progress but very slowly with regards to this i'm going to read another question that i have read on the chat because it is referring to this do you think that by sacrificing natural spaces such as the south of cantabria or esturias with regards to this tourism a delocalized tourism that is decentralized if sacrificing this natural areas by filling it with wind farms we could we could somehow have more tourism or less tourism because we have on the one hand the need to have renewable energies and also the need to have mountains of natural spaces because mountains are attractive for this sort of tourism i don't know maybe javier can say something about this about this topic i think that it doesn't have to do directly with tourism i think that that is about planning and and finding balance life on planet earth works because we have free energy mainly solar energy but we also have wind what's best to bet for solar and wind or to to use fossil fuels well obviously we have to bet for renewable energies do we have to set windmills in every mountain every place well i don't think so we need to find balance and it's complicated it's logical that in some places the local population needs to have a voice and say they don't want windmills and i think it's reasonable for them to say that decisions cannot be imposed from the top to bottom and the local population should be able to to agree or disagree with these decisions and be a part of the decision-making process and in management decisions are never easy and this i'm sure is one of the most difficult decisions it has its positive aspects lots of positive aspects and some negative aspects that also need to be taken into account and we need to find a balance so i know the area of palencia's mountains and i wouldn't want windmills to be there but i don't know the topic in depth to know if they have asked the local population if local population is for or against so i can't really um i can't really assess the situation at that level i would like to ask calima what initiatives from european countries are being set up that are working that are really working in order to have a sustainable tourism do you know of any initiatives that are being set up or legislations that are being set up in in european countries that go towards this fair tourism low in carbon tourism or isn't anyone doing this can't we do we have a reference or don't we moment in europe uh we are because you talk about planification there's a reason why in uh in europe we need a new tourism strategy and this new european strategy must be in the green deal what what does it mean concretely i believe including details action planned with a short medium and long term objective is it sure is it a a sure way to propose to the member state a state clear strategic and result oriented objective what is the the medium term what could do to make the reliance of the sector march the green deal objective is first of all we need clarity we need to clearly establish governance in the tourism sectors to measure sustainable criterias because when you talk about tourism sector in europe we have only economic criteria we we don't need that that the reason why we need economic social and environmental impact with clear metric control and monitoring those tourism activity foster an inclusive and fair growth as the local scale first secondly we needed to establish a clear action plan to help the sector manage to the manage the the twin transition to digital and greener including safety and social because we need to protect employment there are also eternal key importance of the e you demand importance in us to be taken into account in all european policy decision and our and our initiative for instance the cdc to impact of any policy decision is not considered as a major of course in all e you matters it is essential that the impact of all e you policy decision of the tourism sector be of be always considerate and for me i i i say and or i'll say that this crisis has to be used as an opportunity as an opportunity to war we we need to be rebuilding the tourism sector is a sustainable and a resilient way we're sticking into a long-term perspective i and i i rarely believe far and sustainable reconstruction requires that what does it mean first of all we need taking into account the european 2050 target uncover neutrality in line with the objective of paris agreement first of all two in order to help achieve this objective the parliament consider is very necessary first to address the issue of the mode of transport by encouraging and no polluting mobility such as cycling or rail transport if you invest on cycling and rail transport is a good for the job is a good for the climate and the next year will be the year of the rail in europe so we will make is happen and we need just is my the last but i believe the the least word because it's very important what say uh i'm sorry with my uh spanish accent sorry uh okay it's not a problem for you great i believe we need really uh sometimes people is very hard to change the compartment is very hard so i would like to conclude i'm totally agree that the notion of tourism as we know is today a powerful business but we need to get away from passive and too often superficial way of monitoring of only retaining what the show and it was a one of famous author in front of post you know post yes post used to say the only true uh voyage will be not to travel through um a hundred different lands with the same pair of eggs but to see the same land through a hundred different pair of eggs that it's mean is i i think is a good track to follow it's time to say now we cannot tourism we cannot tomorrow the tourism we cannot make the same compartment but be careful be careful because in the future of this tourism we cannot create a fracture with the poor people and the rich people because for the rich people is a privilege to to use their right this right of tourism and the poor people cannot go to another country etc that the reason why we need to to create a new world with inclusive tourism be careful with this fracture okay gracias muchas gracias carima bueno thank you so much carima i think that one of the things that have been mentioned not only do we need to change tourism because yes absolutely it's unsustainable and it is generating many emissions we need to change our model but there's also another question another matter which is how climate change is also going to force new generations to change the kind of tourism that they do so will there be this is something that javier was saying we will have that effect of climate change on the sort of tourism that we will see in the future i don't know i would have you would like to take that question i think that well i insist i think that we all love to travel and i'm referring to to myself but when we have such cheap trips such as the ones that we have had in the last few decades what this generates is a huge impact huge economic impact positive impact because they it has reached secondary cities these low cost lines have gotten to secondary cities but mainly it has caused an environmental impact that is enormous so unfortunately for me human beings only respond or mainly respond to prices and neither they use an environmental policy that is harsh from an environmental standpoint or this will not change i think that the question aurora was rather how climate change can change the sort of trips that are being taken so if since in our country for instance there will be more heat waves during the summer with temperatures that are not bearable well that is actually something that is quite quite quite mentioned the Mediterranean with an increase in temperatures an increase of six degrees is going to be unbearable in summer so in summer we will have a very few international tourists they will not come from outside of spain and what we will have will be emerging destinations such as the north of europe they will be fresher and people will decide to go there for the summer and the mediterranean will have two big seasons what is now springtime and full maybe it can be an advantage because the season will change the use of spaces of spaces that have already been built it through that the problem is to what extent is this going to change the floor with the fauna and obviously the consequences of the big weather phenomenon because this is going to force us to to make public investments high public investments to maintain a coastline and to maintain a minimum quality in our beaches and actually tourism is going to be very expensive for everyone it's going to be expensive for the pockets of spaniards and especially for the citizens in the coastline in the mountains we have seen it there's some little snow snow is only falling in the higher mountains we will have to use artificial cannons that makes it more expensive etc so you have to rethink this yes we have been talking about the impact of climate change and tourism and we have been doing it for some time but i think we have to start doing something an effective way and this has to come hand in hand with decisions by institutions and governments we can think as much as we want we can have an intellectual conversation scientific difficult conversation we can have also to have experimental science conversations the future is there the science has said that climate change is real and it's true and it's coming and we're filling it and and we're filling it in a very important way so it's what Javier has said with 7.5 billion inhabitants in the world we either change the way we consume or this is going to explode there is a question i don't know Javier if you want to add something if not yes antony usually asks me questions and he's asking me about the same thing and i want to answer him he still insists on the topic of whether we need to degrow tourism i think we have an experience which was a crisis of 2008 to 2012 and there were some provinces that actually withheld that crisis we did that study what cities or what provinces were more resilient which ones responded best to that crisis and there is a study that shows two things first that those cities or provinces that best withheld were the ones who had diversified their economy and second those who had really paid for the primary sector for instance Extremadura was one of the autonomous regions that best withheld the crisis there was less unemployment during the 2008-2012 crisis Extremadura which is one of the regions that is more held back but it's its economy is based in the primary sector and those that were more diversified for instance the Basque country and the provinces in the Basque country so having said that we are learning our lessons Spain has has already considered that tourism is the only development engine in many regions and that was a bad strategy we saw that maybe forced by Europe because they never they didn't allow us to grow when we got in the EU in the primary sector and they put lots of limits so that we couldn't include livestock and so on and when we had to eliminate lots of of our livestock industries many of our farmers who lived up their livestock had to stop doing that so that must must make us think that not just because of an ecological matter but for an economic matter we need to diversify our economy it's fundamental when I said that the best way to to to fight against this Spain that is getting empty is to use rural tourism so that is actually diversifying the economy so that the primary sector has some complementary revenues so that living in those areas allows for reasonable salary fair to to the city so I think that that is an aspect that doubtlessly when I when I answered previously I don't say it doesn't mean that I don't think that we have to change the model we do have to change the economic model especially in some regions where the touristic sector has too big of a weight an exaggerated weight and I also understand one thing and I really like to say this we are living in a world that we are mistreating I always like to use this metaphor people who come to a building with different apartments and so on at the beginning they they like each other and the house is well treated and the common areas are cared for and there is a good ambience in general in the building but as years go by the relationships are deteriorated and that common space is also deteriorated filled with garbage and we still we start seeing problems in the plumbing and the roof and somehow we start seeing broaches and rats so roads are the virus that has appeared it's just a warning a warning that that common space which is our planet we are mistreating it and the problem is not the virus itself the virus is just a warning that many other problems are about to come the level of uncertainty that our children are going to live is awful and this is just this this is just a warning and in this situation and Kalima was saying that we either bet for a change from have more resilient economic structures that are capable to answering to this uncertainty and crisis scenarios that are about to come because it's unavoidable this the model that we live in right now with all these inhabitants and consumption it doesn't have a future we are driving a car at a hundred kilometers per hour and we are straight going to the cliff and we don't know at how many meters the cliff is but we know that we're going towards the cliff we don't know how how soon we will crash but we know that we will crash so what's the alternative and and there is another question just to answer the other question I teach a class in the degree for tourism which is the environmental impact of tourism and sustainable tourism and I had to fight for it to be included in this in the degree of tourism and there are many tourism degrees that don't have this this this class so if the future managers or the future tourism technicians are not being taught currently some kind of training so that they know that they have to bet for a different kind of tourism with different a different model with different criterias then it means that we're not preparing the new generations to be able to tackle this from a technical standpoint that is why the role of the university in the topics is basic because it can be the transformation element for the future at least in the tourism sector that they will lead in the future well I would like because we don't have much time we only have 11 minutes for this for this wonderful debate round table there are going to be many things left unsaid I'm sure but I would like I would like to ask one thing if you don't mind what Javier has just I I wanted I wanted in my university we do have that that class sustainable tourism but my criticism was because I think that the concept of sustainability is being dealt with in many classes so often you don't need a class you don't have a specific class I do my classes touristic policies and I always talk about that concept what really shocks me is when I teach my third year students when I talk about sustainability it bores them because they say we have already done it no we're going to see it from a different perspective because what we have done is make a great effort in general so that because there is an institute in Switzerland you know that measures the competitiveness touristic and non-touristic competitiveness for economy in general and that is an amazing effort so these are reports that are worth a lot of money and they have been done but they're not making the same effort to measure sustainability and this is something that Karima was saying and I have for a very long time been saying to my students I have been saying that to my students for a very long time why don't we measure the sustainability of elements why do we measure something as complicated as competitiveness and we have not made that effort for sustainability so the World Tourism Organization in the year 2017 they organized if I'm not wrong an international conference in Manila in the Philippines and they set up a group of experts to start measuring sustainability well I haven't seen the results I don't know if they have issued the report or not but I would love for us to really give sustainability the role it has especially in the World Tourism Organization we haven't said it because we said it in the introduction the European at the Spanish network for sustainable tourism we have a guide with a series of indicators that can be used initially such as a self-evaluation but as a reflection point to use the sustainable goals in touristic sectors and I think that it is in the line of what you're saying Aurora so within this report we have touristic indicators and sustainability indicators of the of the sustainable goals sustainable development goals and the GDP the per capita GDP of touristic origin and the number of tourists per inhabitant are negatively correlated to these sustainability indicators so the touristic model that we currently have is not contributing to sustainability it is going against sustainability but funnily enough when when we link it to the 17 SDGs the SDG that is most linked to sustainable tourism which one do you think it is you're not going to believe it out of the 17 SDGs which one do you think has a greatest relationship with the development of sustainable tourism I don't know 16 number 16 peace justice and having a society that lives in harmony well that is the SDG and it makes sense because tourists go to societies that are that don't have risk problems and that's that's an indicator and a clear SDG that is very much linked to sustainability that is where we have the most direct relationship in the report that we created and it's quite clear okay so it's it's a pity but we're running out of time so I would like to conclude by highlighting the things that have been said because I think that during this round table many proposals have been made and I hope some of them are actually successful because there's 7.5 billion people in the world but it's also true that we either care for this planet as Javier said or no one will want to no one will go to go anywhere because we all love to see beautiful places have a beautiful fauna beautiful flora and we don't want to go see places that are destroyed and that are not in good conditions so that's that's the reality so it's not because of that but that we need to care for the planet but we have to take it into account nonetheless and if we want for tourism to keep on existing we need to preserve the spaces and of all the proposals I'm going to mention some of the proposals as a few brushstrokes for the conclusion so first of all obviously low cost is something that we need to finish with we need to end with low cost by increasing taxes or by setting taxes such as the kerosene tax as Makayama was saying for the aviation or having other green taxes higher green taxes higher than what we currently have so that there really is a compensation of the carbon footprint that tourists sleep when they go from one place to the next we also have to promote the local things a local tourism where we don't need to go for miles to meet to to see something we need to stay closer from home but we have to do it with a good environmental management of those spaces so that the impact is not too negative in those environments it seems obvious that at some point we will have to set a limit to tourism even if it is difficult as Aurora said it is difficult for governments and institutions to want to talk about this because obviously it is not a comfortable topic and it always has an impact in economy but we have to start taking steps because we are more and more the population keeps on growing and it keeps on the number of visitors is also growing tourism has gone down due to very specific phenomenon which is the pandemic but all the experts are saying that when this pandemic is overcome with some vaccines we are going to be willing to travel even more so I can't even imagine how many millions of tourists will have in 2021-2022 and the impact that this could have and then there is a proposal of promoting tourism that will use public transportation or railroads instead of instead of planes training training of our touristic agents those who sell tourism and the people who work in tourism and environmental topics is basic we need to train them because the way we manage tourism will have a lot to do with the impact that tourism will have and also economy if your economy is only focused in one activity then it's problematic as you were saying if we only promote marketing instead of taking into account other factors in the end you're putting all of your eggs in the same basket and I that's all I wanted to say I know that many more topics have been tackled this was just a short summary of what has been said this afternoon I wanted to thank you all thank you so much for being here with us at the other side of the screen we don't see you but we feel you here with us thank you so much thank you to those who have been following this from from very far away this was possible thanks to the internet otherwise we would not have had them here and I would like to thank the Kazan Zendida for this series with with these round tables all of this is being recorded and it will all be available at the youtube channel of the Kazan Zendida so you will be able to see them again you will be able to share them if you want and I would like to thank the Foundation Transición Verde and the Foundation Green the Green European Foundation thank you so much for sponsoring this event and thank you to the Kazan Zendida for being a part of this event so I wanted just to say goodbye to everyone thank you Javier Aurora Karima it was a pleasure to be with all of you here thank you very much