 My name is Mark Northover. I work for Auckland University of Technology in Auckland and I'm a member of the Askelight Executive Committee and also working to facilitate this webinar series. Partly this particular webinar is brought about by a recently signed memorandum of understanding between Askelight and Eden, the European distance and e-learning network. And I will invite Ildeco, who works for Eden in the UK, to talk a little bit about that in a second. And then we will pass over to Dinesh Zarko, who's an instructional designer for the University of Technology in Budapest, who will present the webinar. If you've got any comments that you'd like to make, please put them in the chat box and we'll monitor that as the session goes through. If you wanted to speak, there's a hand raised icon where you can be invited to speak. Please turn the microphone off if you're not speaking just so that we don't get interference and background noise. And so thank you Ildeco if you'd like to say a few words. Thank you very much for the word Mark and good evening to everybody from the other side of the world and good morning to those few who are joining us from Europe. It is a pleasure to be here at the first webinar that is part of this new partnership between Askelight and Eden. I would like to introduce our organization shortly. My name is Ildeco Mazad. I am the Deputy Secretary General of Eden, the European distance and e-learning network. Our association is the most comprehensive one in Europe. It is registered in the UK. We've been going for 25 years now. We just celebrated our 25th anniversary. And our goal is to promote communication, collaboration and to foster developments of open education, distance education and e-learning and to allow cooperation and information exchange between our members. And I don't know if you can click on the link in the shared presentation box. But if you would like to read more about the organization, you can click on the link there, www.EdenOnline.org. We are open to all levels and sectors of education, whether it is formal or non-formal, informal, higher education, K-12, just continuous professional development for teachers and professors. And we are open to institutions as well as individual members and networks such as Askelight. We have several strategic partnerships with other associations of that kind from everywhere in the globe really. And another aim we have is to recognize formally and informally excellence and professional achievements. And to demonstrate that, one little example is that, for example, after this webinar, all participants of this webinar will be issued an open badge. And those of you who know what open badges are will be able to just accept it and add it to their backpacks. This webinar is going to be about the perspectives of the European instructional designer. And here I would like to hand over the microphone to my colleague, Dinesh Zarka, from the Budapest University of Technology and Economics, who's going to introduce to you how instructional design works here in Europe so that you can see how that compares to your practices in Australia and New Zealand. And if you have any questions about Eden at the end of the presentations, I'll be here to answer your questions or you can just send us an email. Dinesh, the floor is yours. Thank you very much, Ildiko. Very good evening from Europe and especially from Central Europe, Budapest. A very quick self-presentation. Although I'm an instructional designer nowadays, I'm originally an electrical engineer, graduated from Budapest University of Technology and Economics. I was trained in the UK, especially in Sheffield, where there was the Department for Employment Department at that time. Those departments are changing their name every five years or so, but at that time it was Employment Department. Until 1998, I was working for Budapest Training Technology Center and then I was recruited in 1998 to my former university where I was graduating from in the Learning Innovation Center, where I'm working still now. My field of expertise is course development, content development, educational research, training of designers and tutors. So most of the time I'm not teaching, I'm putting together nice material. Just to know if anybody is familiar with this topic, is there any other instructional designers in the room? Just raise your hands. I'm quite interested. I will speak a little bit differently if there are. Okay, yes, at least one. Thank you. So I'm not a teacher, but I'm doing training for designers with much exercises and experiencing things. Living in Europe, Hungary, Budapest, I will show a map of this and I speak Hungarian, English and French. I still have some Russian from the dark era, but I would not like to try it out now. It was compulsory till 1989 to learn. Okay, thank you. I think it's enough for presentation and go to the topic. Yes, so it's a nice, I thought we are approaching from Europe, then a nice map from Europe and in the middle this little red something is Hungary, 10 million square kilometers. Yes, we are counting kilometers and 10 million less than 10 million inhabitants. Capital is Budapest. Okay, I would like to ask, yes, thank you. That was my request to stop my projection on camera, which help us quite a lot with bandwidth. I will speak about a few things, open things, because there are many meanings of it. Is it really new sharing and media convergence, differences in settings, Australia and EU, whatever. I know about this. I have a very surface type knowledge of Australia and higher education, although I've always had very good examples for distance education in Australia. Why would I design open content? And one, would you design open content? That will be the two questions I would like to answer. And how does it turn to be sustainable? That's what will be the last idea I will speak of. So the first bit of things I would like to speak of is the past meanings of open. In the early 70s, 90s, open learning meant open access learning. And when I learned open learning or distance education, in my diploma in England was an expert of open and flexible learning. But that time it was purely access. We were speaking about, at that time, much about the time, pace and place where we opened up the access and the closer we could take the access to the learners and above all, for example, the free access to education, it was a very good new thing. So that was partly to breaking down the barriers. Somebody has turned my, I turned it back. Yes, thank you. Okay, so the access to courses, fee reduction. Somebody is always changing my slides. I don't know why. Okay, thank you. So access to free courses, fee reduction, no more entry requirements. So for example, in the British Open University, they decided not to require level A for after the secondary education. Eliminating strict evaluation methodologies, I was learning much that the free choice of learners or students to choose the way they are assessed and things like this. Open learning was individual paper and broadcast and video and audio and CBT based. CBT at that time meant a computer based training. I don't know if anybody is familiar with this and it has totally disappeared. I still have very good memories of some very good CBTs. The media was quite expensive, so we were concentrating much more on the methodological content. But the service and the content was not open and not free at that time. And as the technology goes by, the recent meanings of open is a bit different. Open learning nowadays is really about open content learning. Open educational resources in this respect mean that open access of content, for example, articles, open source educational tools and modules. So even the tools with which you are producing the content is open. And open practices where you offer open architectures of learning, individualized learning pathways and others, which is also opened up. And open courses, yes, open online courses like MOOCs, MOOCs mostly, as the access is free only, which means that normally MOOCs are halfway open, only the access, but they normally don't give out the source code or the material in a native format, just the course itself. So if an instructional designer like me would like to research a bit on MOOCs, we have to enroll as students and look around, otherwise it is not accessible. While, for example, if we are making an open educational resource course, then we most of the time give access to the resource to give the ability to edit the content itself. Anyway, different definitions in a recently published material can be observed. The related project currently running and we are just finishing it is the open project, open professional collaboration for innovation. There are three training materials and I give the links as well. OER and sustainability models, that is the first training material which is open. ICT tools to develop and adapt OER and I use it quite extensively, the second training material even in my own university for university academic staff, who asked me to have them a little bit how they could make their own OERs and I'm just showing from here some editing tools and others. And the third is innovative curriculum designing for work-based learning. You can click on the third one and you see those are quite short courses. So if you want to have a deep understanding, then you really have to take a bigger course. But for in the running life, if you have a few hours to skim to get something and you very quickly have to produce something as a teacher, it is quite good for you. I stop here for a little while and asking you if you are with me, if anybody has questions from this first OER part or can I go further? Yes, no urgent matters I think. So I think I can go forward and I'm just finishing the topic by, is it really new? And I would say no, it's not really new because we have always talked about special designs, special tools, special approach, special media, special role of teachers and tutor. And we still speak about new approaches. But in my experience, in the last 20 years, I experienced some changes that dramatically changed open learning. The two big things that are affecting or effective and still affecting my designers like is the sharing and networking effect and the media access and convergence. Let's talk two sentences about this or three sentences about this. E-mailing home computers didn't mean methodological change. Web portal techniques like learning management systems, what is also cited as virtual learning environments in other parts of the world. Web two point and sharing did do something much more interesting. From individual learner to learner communities, cooperation and collaboration broke out from the minor experience position, mainstream activity, what we designers can build on. I clearly remember how we tried to motivate the solitude learners with their print materials to form their own learning groups and volunteer learning groups, and how we asked them whether we can share their telephone numbers, whether they could call themselves, whether they could meet in libraries face to face and try to do some networking in real terms. But it was marginal. Some people did, let's say 5-10 people of learners did, but normally they didn't. And in this need, we always knew that it would help a lot in the individual learning if learners can volunteer in networking. That has arrived with Web 2.0 and the network computers. And the other thing which is new is the media access and convergence, which means that the publishing industry tools and products with film industry tools and products and telecom industry tools and products are converging and are in a convergence and everything is in your screen. Unfortunately, all the knowledge you had to know of text publishing, film publishing and telecommunication are still there, so you more or less have to master all of this. But anyway, it is accessible from your screen and desktop computer or laptop or tablet or whatever, and you can play with all of them with a mix of them. And I think this mix is nicely come together to offer OERs. However, and I will stop at the end of this idea, I will ask you whether you are agreeing with me. There can be possible cultural differences how we regard this openness of learning. Let's see this very nice matrix and I would say that the first issue is the language. I think or I have a division that in Australia you can very easily live with your English language. But for us in Europe, most of us English is a second language or something which we have learned in school. But we have much German, French, Spanish, Italian, Polish and many, many small languages like Hungarian, which means that the educational market is quite dramatically segmented. Of course, the higher the education level is, the more you can use the English. But in initial education, in ISCAD level, low level, you can't count that all Europeans speak English. So we are in a quite in a different situation and we quite intensively try to use techniques which are language free. Another interesting possible cultural difference is the business model itself. Because my vision on Australia or New Zealand is that education and market and business oriented tuition fees are on place, maybe relatively free and low regulation level. On the other hand, in Europe, the higher education by low is mostly free apart from the UK, strongly regulated by the states. And there is quite a small free market, it's limited to the corporate market rather. And it's a big difference of the value of free content. Therefore, we have to have some political drivers to make more and more open resources, because in the learning market, at least in let's say secondary and tertiary education, people quite easily find a full time free education for themselves if they are not living too far from a big city. And the scale of operation, this is the third possible difference. I think that Australia is a unique and big market with global outreach because of your culture, Anglo-Saxon culture and global and language, while Europe is segmented small market limited outreach. Of course, partly there are similar wakes that you can experience in Australia. For example, Spanish colleagues are easily contacted with Latin America with a big Spanish language. So yes, Spanish in a way is global and can be triggered and can be supplied with content from Spain or Portugal is the same. France is heavily working with the Francophonie, so they are also global in this sense. But here or there, there are patches which are similar to Australia. But anyway, we can't speak a unique, one unique European market. Although we have more in most of the countries, we have common currencies, but the English is like the Latin in the medieval ages. This is only a transferring language. Yes, before going back, I'm just asking whether you are with me. Are there any questions about those? Are you agreeing with me that the Australian setting is quite different from the European one? And therefore the value and the motivation of offering open educational resources might be very different in your universities or your institutions and in European institutions. Yes, Mark is raising hand. I was just going to ask a question and maybe Eva might want to answer it. I take your point about Australia and New Zealand being in a position with what is probably a more globally acceptable language working in English. But I'm always being told that on the west coast of Australia in Perth, it's the same time zone as the eastern coast of Asia. So there's a huge potential population there in China that is on the same time zone as the western, the west coast of Australia. Eva, do you know whether universities in Perth are developing specialized Chinese language resources and education material? Eva, I'm not sure if you heard that question. Can you indicate whether you have an answer? And maybe in due course, Dennis, maybe you can carry on. Okay, thank you very much. I have a question. Have you ever faced such cultural differences in my career? Yes, certainly, and hidden the English language. My nicest cultural difference was my second course I tried to translate and adapt to Hungarian in the early 90s, where the British computer-based material was explaining the choice of a new product in a shop. And we tried to teach a technique how you can select if you have, let's say, six points to select and how you rank it and so on. But unfortunately, the object we were talking about was a kettle. But in Hungary nobody used a kettle 20 years ago. We just heated the boiled water with special teacups. And so we had to adapt and we just changed the kettle to an espresso coffee maker, because normally nobody could have any questions how to choose a kettle from the Hungarian shops without any knowledge about a kettle. But yes, it's partly a joke. But even in Europe, the different life settings, life is more global now. But at that time, even with those minor things, we had to face it. But I certainly see a big cultural difference between the Anglo-Saxon way of business-like thinking and product and customer-oriented way of thinking, while the continental, I would not like to mention all the colleagues, but Italian, German, French academics who are more on the quality and academic side and are not dealing so heavily with the need of supplying the learners, the students. They still think that the high quality educational material is self-explanatory and students themselves have to think of it as a big possibility and fortune that they have the free right to listen to them. And I think culturally in the continent is still quite common. Even with younger lecturers, while I saw in the UK that most of the academic people, apart from the highest-ranked lecturers, they are very keen on teaching and not telling content. I think, for example, this is a cultural difference within Europe, which comes from these possible cultural differences. Therefore, open educational resources to make one is not very easy in Europe. Okay, let's go further. And Ildiko is raising hands. Is it really something I'm just stopping, Ildiko? Yes, I just wanted to reflect on what you said about the cultural differences. You mentioned Latin America and just remember that we had another European Union-funded project that was developing language courses for businesses in Portuguese. And what I do remember is that, for example, the Brazilian version of the course, and this was very, very short animated videos, and the vocabulary that the Portuguese and the Brazilian versions of the same unit taught was very different because the cultural approach to a business conversation in Portugal and in Brazil were very different. The Brazilians were more friendly, they were more physical, they would be asking about your family, while in Portugal the business conversations were more strictly business-related. And I was quite fascinated by the fact that those people who developed these courses, although they were both Portuguese language for business, they had to take into account the encounters of the two business partners. And so this is just another example for the cultural differences and how the instructional designer has to take them into account to reach the same effect. Thank you, Ildiko. I experienced the same. So we have to be very cautious. So when we build up the skeleton of a course, the small things that we are enriched with those courses have to be carefully designed and sometimes change if it is a different cultural environment for exercises, activities, group work and other, may die out if different cultural settings come on the scene. Sometimes I'm just making sure that the course itself is stupid-free, which means that if all the communication fails, I even have some tests and some activities that can be done still in solitude and no excuses that they couldn't talk with anyone or at least not a meaningful conversation. So yes, we have to be very cautious in this matter. And I had the same experience that Ildiko with Portuguese and Brazilian different culture, although the same language, I experienced a very nice Portuguese lecture in Sao Paulo when the half of the audience was laughing because the lady, the academic lady, whom they normally loved, the wording and the style of Portuguese, they told me silently that this is a medieval age language. So for them it was ridiculous how the lady was talking. So then I realized that you have to be cautious whom to invite, how to invite and how you direct them to talk. So it was more or less a failure traveling and flying ten hours from Portugal to Sao Paulo to lecture on something that the people just can't access because they are stopped with the wording of the same language. Because yes, they also told that we are more familiar, more democratic and not so aristocratic. And also the wording was okay. I didn't understand that, by the way, I just experienced the ambience of the Sao Paulo audience in the university. Thank you and let's go further a little bit. Why would I design open content? And my dramatic answer is I would not, but I'm in a special position. I'm making the giving of designing, so like the tailors from tailing and teachers from teaching. So I normally may be one of these academic staff that I would not design because I'm the designer, but all other colleagues are free to do this. And also because it is time consuming, I still count 40 hours of designing time of preparation for one hour good quality online learning. And I think, so I was two or three times in my life thinking of making open content for my family, but I just dropped it. And then I spoke with the painter in my flat and when he reported the same that he would never paint his flat on his own, but normally what he does is inviting the colleagues and do the same techniques in his own setting that he does in professional settings. And in three or five days he is painting his own flat with six other people. It is more an option than to do it on your own. So this is partly the reason I'm not doing the online open design on my free time to anything. But I design most of the time open courses for learning because the public finance of the course. So it is free for the beneficiary, but not free for the financer and always follow the finance requirements. So for example, in social science, if I have a customer to design something, it is social science, it is more on open side. If it's technical science like in my university, it is more on the restricted side. Just one example, if a big car industry player orders an e-learning material for further education, internal further education, it is absolutely forbidden to put it online because the other car manufacturers would also learn from this and it is definitely not the rain. But also if it's public financing, it's open side because the European public funding is requiring more and more open hands and put the cards on the table while business financing is on the restricted side. And I clearly remember that I had the chance to work for insurance companies. And I had a designing contract that I even couldn't quote that I was working for them because they told me it was more than 10 years ago. That's why I'm talking about now in relation to openness. At 10 years ago, there was so big fluctuation in the agents cohort that it cost a very big money for an insurance company to train and train new and new agents who do the business and offer new and new contracts. So the insurance company who decided to do it online quickly and cheaply didn't want to hear that other concurrence also do the same technique. For them it was a golden solution and it was strictly forbidden to talk about this work. And it was not defense industry, it was pure financing industry and insurance industry. Of course the setting has changed and it is not the same. It was a very big peak at that time in this business and now it is more settled. I'm just telling two things. One is the social science versus technical science and public versus business where you really experience different requirements of the level of openness. And yes, if it's social science and yes, if it's public finance, I'm designing open content, even open resource content for the Hungarian or European public. I'm stuck here also because it can be something that you don't agree. So if you have any questions about this openness, I'm ready to discuss with you. But if not, then I'm continue. I'm just showing one screenshot from this open prof thing. The link is there and it was already shared by Ildiko, the major link to this portal. This is cut out from a Moodle portal. This is mobility guide, online planning and management with ICT support. That was financed, for example, by the European Union. Therefore, the requirement is to open it up. So you are, after an enrollment, you are free to learn this material. The resource with our course is not totally open because there are some links and there are some internal things that we would not like that the authors change. But most of the courses that our colleagues, our partner institutions offered is free even in the resource code. Now the next slide is why you, as an academic or teacher, would you design an open content? And my answers are quite simple because your income is based on other indicators like classes, learner outcomes, success rate, etc. and not on the designed materials. So your core activity is not by developing courses. Your core activity, I suppose, is rather on teaching. You may also, that's why you are more free to create for your own, in your own free time, some open content. But you may also want to save time and energy for colleagues. Let's say you are working in a group even with other universities and you decide to share the development of different examples or case studies and you just share and put together and you save energy for yourself and for your colleagues as well. The free reuse of your content adds to your own reputation and it is partly the reason of the USA MOOCs that the lecturers who offer free leader courses would for really add to their reputation. Their names will circulate and this free sharing would add at the end of the day to their academic career. Next, when it is a content made by your learner or learner groups, in case they agree and you build on your local repository of user generated content. So in many cases and also in social science, if you can build in your courses that your learners themselves create content and you agree with them that they share with your classmates or they share with their other faculty members or even if they share with the big public, then you just have them to generate open content. I've heard in sociology department that for example they started in Europe together storytelling techniques, second world war experiences of still living generation and they agreed not only to do the storytelling interviews but also they agreed that the Spanish colleagues would put it online in favor to the next generation. It was absolutely open content that was for educational purposes and it was not created solely by the tutors and teachers, they were just moderating the process and maybe editing the content, but the content was coming from elderly people who were in elderly classes and learning something in their pensioner time. It was just an example how learners may generate user generated content that may become an open content in your university. Another example was what I know of also it was a psychology department and learners could find easily family stories about different social facts that they learn of and they made small case studies about those things in their environment and they shared with each other and it was more likely that they share and they learn from it then and an academic example. And finally when you think the open attitude adds something important to the learning community. So if you want to teach the openness then also you have to share openly something with your learners, with your peer academic colleagues. I think I stop here because somebody is writing and I'm asking Ildiko whether it's wise to stop now and what is exactly the question. We can definitely stop here and see what the question is. It's more of a comment than a question really. Yes, yes, I agree with that but absolutely just I saw that that was about cultural differences as well that this is an attitude now we take in Europe but in business environments it is quite strange for them till now. But also I would not say it is black and white, maybe not a very good example but Nokia in the last 10 years they started to introduce in Nokia an internal company's policy of openness even with new technology and even with innovation they opened it up internally and to the whole world and they had a belief that it will globally help Nokia to become more on the innovative edge. As far as I see the marriage with Microsoft slowed it dramatically down but I also know that this period will end up soon and they come back to their original finish way of thinking. Okay, so how does it become sustainable if we open it up? And there are also some answers like with massive financing on behalf of the University of Public Funding and that's what is happening in Europe nowadays with Erasmus Plus programs where the open educational content and resources are political priorities so you have much more chance to get funding to any kind of educational activity if you agree that you will open up your content. With substantial input on behalf of authors yes it is sometimes requiring much time and energy on your behalf but with a good choice of content ideal for reuse, edit and remix which means that sustainable content is most of the time global content with small cultural differences. For example let's say how this or that product works it is a quite cultural independent thing so if you prepare how to do open educational content on something then it's easy to translate edit and remix without too much cultural problems. With a good answer to emerging needs which means that although even in Europe where the legislation is quite strict if you find an emerging field where there is no content at all you can start with an open choice, an open content choice where there is no still subject which is teaching them and you will be the front breaker of this new field with open content right from the beginning. And also with a good choice of an industrial standard format so if you creating something in a format that only was developed in your university, in your company we may speak about special let's say picture digitizing technology or special voice technology or special LMS or so. If it's very specialized that it will not be a good open content if you use the nowadays industry standard that you can be sure that if this industrial standard is already over then somebody will make sure that there is a kind of compatibility to the next industry standard while if you are using your own custom standard it will not transfer if you don't do it on your own. And I clearly remember in the 90s where for example in documents there was no doc format and we use very different formats. Nowadays the only way out from this that we try to open with the old word processors is to save it in text format and then reload it modern word processors and edit the characters and a huge work has to be done to at least see the text itself. It wouldn't happen if you are using GPEG format and PDF format and doc format or M let's say in motion video it's MPEG 4 then it's most probably that the next generation industry viewers will also have the possibility to import it. Those are the factors that I think that the sustainability related to the sustainability. Are there any questions about the sustainability or any views on this? I'm just yes and this is the end. So are there any questions of anything I was talking about? Even the last slides or any part of the presentation I was just putting on the table. I'm happy to discuss it with you. I see that Ildiko and Eva have quite an intensive discussion in the chat box. So I shut up for the moment. I give the floor back to Ildiko. If there is any conversation she or Mark could moderate it. Thank you and thank you for your listening to me. Thank you very much Dana. This is most inspirational. I always appreciate the practical examples behind the narrative. So I hope the others felt the same way and this is now the open floor where we still have five minutes plus the delay time. So if anybody has any questions please just switch on your microphone and feel free to. Ildiko I was just wondering I see that Dominic Parrish is joined our session and Dominic is the president of Askalite. I wonder if Dominic might like to just say a word on behalf of Askalite and even collaboration. That would be great. Dominic can you turn on your microphone? Can you hear me? I can. You can. So Mark you were really faint. Every time you come in I've had to turn my microphone but my audio up very loud because I couldn't hear you. But I think you've asked me if I would give a vote of thanks to Dean for this afternoon to Dean for taking the time for such an interesting presentation. I'm pretty sure that's what you wanted me to do. So it was a very interesting presentation and I know it got me thinking about my own personal context more so I must say than Askalite. And I noticed that one of my team are actually in the forum today so it's going to be interesting to talk to him about it tomorrow. Thank you very much Dean for the time that you've taken to present the information that you've presented here today. I'm not sure if anyone else I don't want to take up anyone else's time who might have a question for him. No questions? If people are just shy please feel free to put your comments in the chat box and I can read them out or Danish can read them and answer them. And I see Eva's microphone on and now off. Did you want to ask a question? If you are speaking I'm afraid we cannot hear you but I see that your phone is on and off. And now David's microphone is on so let's see what people... Well we talked about, you talked about sustainability in terms, can you hear me? You talked about sustainability in terms of open educational resources but I'm curious about your perspectives on sustainability from the standpoint of being a designer in the context that you're in, sort of the efforts that you're taking to establish a sustainable model for constructing educational resources. What's your approach when you're working with folks to design these resources? Thank you. My approach is quite down to earth. First I'm designing open source for the public if the public resources are available for me. So I'm not complaining of the last ten years or more to design open resources. It becomes sustainable if in the leading in process and if in the dissemination process we can make a big breakthrough with the material. In fact what book is now used to be technically available from the beginning of the millennium. So whatever I designed and offered free and put on my website free nobody used it because there was a lacking model of dissemination and embedment to the educational process. So on one hand we are quite free and happy to offer things freely but the sustainability will become if the society or part of the society which means now the learning community or university community taking it up and builds in their curricula or builds in their day to day life. That is one. The other thing, the real big thing with MOOCs is for example is this business model how they tried to make sustainable this free offering model by two, three special effects which we call for example loss leading model or freemium model or other models that are helping them that even if they are investing much in a quality content that the end of the day in a few years time they get back the investment in other ways not cheating on the fact that they are offering things free. Just one very short and last example in the UK there are professions where the master's diploma is a value so they offer freely the bachelors and gather the money at the master's level. So there are some, even in business settings there are some business models how you can... Hi Carol, how are you? Carol, could it be possible for us to run it tomorrow? That would be a lot better. Gabo, can you please mute the microphones of the people? I can do it. Is that okay? Hi. Okay, somebody is talking. Okay, so this is my answer that our approach is as a designer that if my customer orders an open educational content then I will do. If my university teacher, Pierre, asked me then I have them how that they can design and I try to make sure that any content which is designed and put online is used by the society otherwise this open content will be only theoretically open content if nobody is learning it. Thank you. Thank you Danish. Any other questions from anybody else? I think we might still have time for a question or two. And it's not actually, I don't know that according to the script who should close the session but I would definitely like to thank Danish for his time and certainly in the morning for the presentation and Askalite, Mark and Dominik for the opportunity. And if the presenter or our host would like to say another few words then this is me saying thanks and goodbye. Goodbye everybody and have a nice evening in Australia.