 My name is Dustin Brass and I'm going to be moderating this panel. I'm looking for a variety of input from across the country as we look into what is land-based learning. I'm a lecturer and placement coordinator at the First Nations University of Canada and I'm regional coordinator for Saskatchewan for NCCIE. NCCIE stands for National Centre of Collaboration in Indigenous Education. The NCCIE is an online digital resource centre of Indigenous education programming and knowledges across Canada. Currently, the project is in its third year and it has over 500 stories. These are told in a variety of languages including Indigenous languages, English, French, Mohawk, Soto, Dene, Cree, etc. Resources this year are being used for curriculum development. Today I want to welcome you into a panel that we're going to be doing alongside three people across Canada and we're asking them the question about what is land-based learning. All three of these panelists have extensive knowledge and extensive background in dealing with the experiences of land-based learning. I myself have spent many times too working with land-based learning and interaction with the land as the land-based learning professor at First Nations University. It's part of our component for Indigenous education. Today the introduction and I want to do an introduction to the digital form. We're having people login across on this Facebook live format and later on in the show we'd ask that you submit your comments and then those comments will be able to be answered from our panelists. I want to look at some of the work that's happening already around the country so if we could go to a live look at some of the things that are happening within the country. There are ways to take care of the land that reflect the Dene perspectives and they came up with principles to guide the way we would develop programming and plan and so the first principle was the Dene laws implementing and following our Dene laws. We need to push harder than we are with our people for the mainstream education, the math, science, language, all that kind of stuff but I think that it has to be done from an In-N-Walk perspective because these reserves that we live in, you walk around the reserve and it's not hard to tell that these were designed as internment camps. These were not designed as places where people would flourish and thrive but again, you know, we've thrived here for thousands of years so there's no reason why we can't take this education and use it to empower ourselves, to redesign our communities but the only way that we can redesign our communities is to really understand science, really understand mathematics, architecture, all that kind of stuff but again if it's done with that first nations, with that In-N-Walk perspective then we know how to do this in a healthy way. We know how to do this in a way that goes back to our foundation of living with the land, of being connected like that. Across this country, when I was talking about the NCCIE resource site, that's what I was talking about. There are videos such as that, 500 plus videos that talk about the programming that's happening across the country and then the indigenous technologies that are important to share. I just want to recap how to interact so you can comment on Facebook if you have a question that you want to ask one of our panelists. You can also text 306-840-8777 or email contact at nccie.ca. We'll ensure that your questions get asked by one of our panelists. The first panelist I want to introduce you to is a man by the name of Willie Irmine. Willie Irmine comes from Sturgeon Lake First Nation and he has been doing a sense of work in the Healing Center and continually engaging in land-based learning. He's a retired professor at the First Nations University but is continuing his work with youth and land-based learning. Willie I want to start off with to you what is land-based learning? First of all I'd like to acknowledge all the people that are watching in. I notice all the locations I see one from Lima Peru for example so I acknowledge all the people that are watching. Land-based learning is I think still a question process in progress. It means a lot to many people but if I put it very simply if we think about children how much they do not label the world that they're immersed in how much they enjoy the world. I look at a two-year-old and they just love the outdoors just running around naked outside enjoying the weather no matter what kind of weather it is and also enjoying all the nature has to provide without actually having to have labels on what it is that they're engaging with. So to me land-based learning is really about how we engage with the world around us and it's not an intellectual intellectual exercise but rather I think it it forces us to use our feelings our heart and the child inside of us we need to engage with the world in that way again once again so that we are understanding and proves about the world that we live in. Thank you Willie. It's so important that we talk through the the domains of emotional mental spiritual and physical as we think about the land-based learning. I want to introduce you to our next guest is Lisa Mershanou-Cochain. She's a member of the Bitigong Nishinaabe formerly Ojibwe's of the Pick River First Nation from the Bear Clan family. Lisa spent most of her life in the community and alongside the North Shore of Lake Superior spending time on the land and embracing the teachings from her parents and grandparents and elders. Upon completion of her formal education and return to the community she has been involved in the education system for 20 years teaching various grades and administration levels. She is a wife and proud mother of three sons and a daughter. Good afternoon Lisa how are you today? I want to start off with the question I asked for asked Willie and that is what is land-based learning? I want to start to create a definition for the people who are viewing and also so that their stories can come alongside and we can gain traction in this understanding of land-based learning. So Lisa what is land-based learning in your perception? To start off with I don't think the concept is a real concept. It might be the latest trend per se in the systems out there today but it really is about embracing the teaching from where we came from which is the earth the land. There's a lot of it seems to be the the biggest trend I guess in education but really our ancestors have been doing what we're trying and attempting to do now with our children for many many years so it really is about connecting making that connection to the earth and trying to figure out how it connects to what we do today and incorporating all aspects meaning the mental the physical the spiritual and the emotional concepts of us as humans. Thank you Lisa I want to acknowledge all the people who are on this forum right now it's wonderful to see you across the nation it was also important when we were selecting our panelists that they too were across the nation we have to realize that although it is land-based education although we have the heart of what we want to do it looks different in different areas so the next person I'd like to go to is Patsy McKinney Patsy is Mi'kmaq from Dalhousie New Brunswick and her family is connected to the Eel River by our First Nation she has served as an executive director of Under One Sky since 2008 Patsy holds a bachelor philosophy of interdisciplinary leadership studies she serves as a chair of the National Aboriginal Head Start Council Patsy and her husband Sean have two adult children Josie and Rice and three grandchildren Elizabeth Abigail and Rice in her spare time she loves beating reading and being out on the land so to carry on this definition Patsy I'd like to also ask you what is land-based learning? Well for us it was just about trying to get our kids outside we just really feel they are surrounded by too much plastic and too much digital products and so it was really important to get them outside. Thank you Patsy we know that when we're as educators when we do this type of work at times there are challenges at times there are things that we have to overcome so I'd like to go to Willie with our next question is what is the biggest challenge land-based learning faces? The biggest challenge I'll ask you to forgive me on this one as I as I start to talk about it the biggest challenge really is the school system and forgive me on that because I know school is important that we need to know learn about what is offered in school but at the same time it's very challenging to have a certain kind of worldview that really disrupts our minds young people's minds and forces them away from you know the living world that surrounds them the challenge is to have our curriculum be able to teach about how people develop their intuitions how people develop their emotional wellness how people develop their holistic self so that they can use that they become independent learners and not have prescriptions from the scholastic system to tell them what the world is all about that we need to have different models of education that will teach us about intuition about dreaming about feeling about giftedness about all these things that we we really need in order to effectively engage with the world excellent thank you Willie you know as as an older generation we many times that's what we look for in our children is that individual learning that individual understanding who they are in the world and the world that surrounds them so I thank you for that feedback Patsy I would like to ask you the same question what is the biggest challenge line-based learning faces well I think for us because we are in an urban center we have to use our city parks so that you know turned out to be an incredible asset meant we had to develop some significant partnerships with the city and we use public spaces so with public spaces there are sometimes some risks so our educators had to be you know well trained on risk assessment because these are incredibly young children and so you know they're two to five year old so we have to be mindful that some of them don't have language yet and they have you know potty needs and so we had to be really make sure the educators were well trained to make sure they can look after these kids and then to use that space in the city so you know where many First Nation communities have a land base we have an urban center with a huge park and lot and we did have a playground and we we completely emptied the playground of all prefabricated structures and we're trying to go back to more natural things so the challenge is to make sure that the children are safe and that the educators are well trained thank you Patsy such an important point about the safety when we go when we do this work well planned out lessons as well and you bring forth a very important concept of this land base of land based learning and that is urban centers this also happens within urban centers it's as I always tell people it's not out just out in the far out spaces where there's no population it's also in our urban centers within our cities within our towns that we need to find spaces in which we can interact with so Lisa I'd like to now turn it over to you to ask you what from your perspective are some of the biggest challenges land based learning faces so I won't think so much about liability and those will forever be challenges for any organization or community that wants to wants to set something like that up I would have to say that a couple of the biggest challenges that I've seen is fear a lot of times there's a fear of change we've been so accustomed to western education and western systems and now we're shifting that sometimes there's a fear that oh if we change our children will miss out on something or we're steering them towards a path or an academic or a career path that may not be relevant and that really isn't the need or the focus of this it really is about connecting our kids to their roots to the teachings of the earth and of course we have to have trust again that is a challenge is we're putting our children in a in a in a in a brand new way of learning so getting trust from parents community members in that trust the philosophy of what we're trying to include in their learning can sometimes be a challenge but it's so worth it thank you Lisa for that you know there's been a lot of research lately looking at the importance of knowing who you are knowing your identity knowing your roots and where you come from and that land-based work really is essential in that work I'm going to go back to Patsy on this one we we've been thinking about at a young age starting our children out young before school starts ingraining and implementing land-based learning so the question from Melissa Mittenen is how do we incorporate land-based learning into Aboriginal Head Start programs ideas for implementation for ages two to five would be appreciated um well that is the that's our target population that we serve is two to five and um and you know we it took us about a a good year and a half to develop the program that we have and um I just think it's really important to do it so make sure your staff have what they need so it's really important um that you have buy-in from staff but you also have to have buy-in from parents um so that they understand the value in it and then one of the things that we tried to make sure of is that we didn't burden families with the expense so um you know we we we purchased we have snowshoes we have a lending program uh or we we'll lend out all our camping equipment all our gear um and uh and it's just it's it's about doing it so if it's if it's important you'll find a way to do it and if not you'll find an excuse not to do it so like I said we're we're an urban center um and we it took some convincing to get some of the staff to buy in as well because um I too was saying I hate being cold uh you know I live in New Brunswick and and we're in the middle of a storm right now and so realizing that making sure kids are comfortable um that they have everything they need when they're out there that the staff are well resourced when they're out there um and and so it's not so for us the philosophy isn't about teaching their ABCs and their one two threes they're going to learn that um but it's to instill a love of learning and what better place to instill a love of learning than out on the land where it changes constantly the weather changes we're using public parks which are a particular park that we're using has a lot of old growth forest and and they're surrounded by nature so it's been a fabulous experience for us and and we do our best to try to encourage others to do it and um it's just a matter of trying to find some creative ways to get it done thank you very much Patsy I was uh asking that starting with you with that question because of your extensive background and working with Head Start and Youth I'd also like to ask uh Willie Irmine the same question about when we're thinking about our youth ages two to five um what are some of the things that we need to implement for youth at that age when we're thinking about land-based learning in our children what do we need to see um how do we need to engage our children for them to see land-based learning to understand land-based learning at a very young age before school starts I think it's a perfect age to to keep children in tune with their natural the natural elements to keep them in tune with the land to keep them in tune with the energies and the feelings that they get from land and the amazing stuff that they must see a two-year-old sees the land so differently than we do you know we've been we've been injected all kinds of ideas about what is out there but children see the world differently and I think it's not so much getting children out on the land as it is that we can learn from them I think if we take our children out there in the land and ask them questions about what they are seeing what they are feeling what what it is that that is happening on the land we can learn so much from them instead of the other way around we're not teaching them about the land all we're doing is really getting them engaged with something that they were born with and that we don't want to destroy their way of seeing the world so any activity on the land and and not to label things for them not to construct a world for them to label this tree as an aspen popular it that doesn't do any good but to ask them what that tree feels like and it's it's a development of the of the energies that that that happened out on the land and and little children especially in Head Start will have those kind of energies and I think we should maintain them and learn from them and and work with children in terms of how we develop curriculum I think don't let the adults develop curriculum let allow the children to develop those you bring forth really a concept of hierarchy that's present ever present in our society but also in our educational systems and you bring forth such an important point about how the classification of things is not the importance it's to engage with the land to feel the land to embrace it to have that emotion those emotions alongside the land so I thank you for bringing forth that concept of hierarchy that we want to instill as human beings when we when we do this type of work Lisa I have a question from Kelly Mastro-Joblin and what are your thoughts on introducing risk-taking in land-based learning with children so in our community we often have community-wide events where the whole community is involved we have a moose camp we have a fish camp and we we shut down our our programs and the community goes out to these camps to engage in the activity of fish harvesting moose harvesting and it's really about a communal a communal activity communal basis and as young as you know the children are in daycare they're included in that their parents come out they're included and as old as our high school students they're all out there there are different things that we do as a community to coordinate in terms of safety and risks but it really is about parent involvement and the parents learning and taking that responsibility with us as educators we're simply facilitators we coordinate we are in no means the experts that teach these skills or teach the parents or teach the children we do a lot of coordinating and a lot of the knowledge and skills that are passed on come from the elders and knowledge keepers in the community and so when you do these types of activities a lot of parents come out with their children and that mitigates you know some of the risks that are involved in these activities. Lisa I'm going to come back to you with a question but I'll let you catch your breath for a second I think you bring for such an integral piece of land-based education and that's humility. I also want to say bonjour to Sharon Stevenson and Pegasus as well and appreciate the comments and the things that keep flowing in but Lisa if you could could you share with us a little bit more in detail your program? So our program runs with the community we about 14 years ago we took the curriculum back to the community back to the parents back to the membership and we asked we put forth the question what is it that you want your children to learn in in in our education system because it really is about taking back the responsibility to educate our children we're a sovereign nation we have the capability to do it you know we need to stop relying on western curriculum to teach what our children need in life so when we did that we ended up developing a curriculum based on our community what we felt that was important in the community and it doesn't become something that we do on the side it really is about priority and putting it up there as just as important as science or language arts and in fact we do a lot of cross-curricular activities where you know we may have been out for two weeks for moose camp or moose hunting or fish harvesting but that learning doesn't start and that week nor does it stop we integrate a lot of it into into what the children are doing in the classrooms so our programming was really about taking the beliefs and the important things about being nishnabe in bitagon and making it a priority and engraving it and embedding it within our systems in itself and we've also been successful in the high school program offering credits for ontario secondary school diploma based on our histories our ways of life in our culture for secondary students thank you i want to bring forth a little bit of a story kathy snow makes a comment that community relationship building among people and the environment is so important i want to bring forth a story that i had the opportunity to engage in early in december i went out to sturgeon lake and i spent some time with a group of young men who they call the little mushings group and this reciprocity of wood harvesting and deer meat that they gave back to the community after they had harvested the wood after they had harvested the deer they tip that stuff that they had pulled together and they gave it back to the community what a beautiful opportunity for youth and to benefit the community to have a positive light within their community but more importantly to see the smiles and the stories of the faces of those that are loved in their community so there's another question from amy about while land based while land based cultural and traditional learning is ideally taught by indigenous educators within the schools we lack qualified indigenous instructors numerically across the country what are your thoughts on how academic institutions can still organize a land based program that is respectful to the local indigenous communities and cultures while having non-indigenous educators oversee the classroom i'd like to turn to willy for that first we'll start with willy for that uh with that first one and then we'll hear what patsy has to say next let me approach this this way that even though it's called land based learning we still have to define that quite extensively but it's not it's not how can i say this what we need to develop in ourselves is the most important that's what we want to teach children and and youth what we have to develop within ourselves and we take that from our cultural past our old people how they engage with the land what was important to them how did they treat the world around them how did they engage with uh all of life not only terrestrial but cosmic as well um and what was it what was the key feature that that was really honored in a community how people would best develop their humanity and and and so that is uh i think what we're striving for in land based learning even though it's called land based learning we might we might call it uh self development learning or the development of the intuition it's the development of our capacity for feeling our capacity to work with energies that are all all around us and um there's a little exercise that for example if you where you are sitting right now everybody where you are sitting right now focus on yourself your feelings not your intellect not your mind not your thoughts but the focus on your feeling and really have a look around your room and and see what it is that captures your attention in that room and when you when you when you look at that uh attention grabbing whatever it is object um ask it what it feels like ask yourself what does that feel like not what it looks like what you know how does that feel like in your heart with your feelings and in in that whole process we start to see that it's a different kind of training that needs to happen and that kind of training can happen in any any classroom or in any academic setting uh the first first of all to to learn what it is that we need to train it's not the intellect so much that we need to train but it's something else it's the intuition and this is what the old people talked about what we need to to develop in our inner capacity our inwardness these are the important items and this is eventually what we hope to get to when we do land-based learning to know how to work with those inner energies so that we get where we're living in reality. Tonsei I want to acknowledge Jeff Jeff Capo from Regina Public Schools you know what a thing that he is grappling with within his large system and I'd like to go to Patsy like I said on this but I first want to let you know that you can also interact by texting 306-840-8777 so Patsy I'd like to go to you on this on how um do you create an authentic land-based program when you don't necessarily have the resources of indigenous people um well that's that is it's a really good question but it is the challenge so the majority of our children and I don't think that's unique to Nagrenzirk the majority of our indigenous kids are going into mainstream institutions that's the reality so they're they're going into mainstream daycare centers or early child care facilities of some sort and I think it's really important for anybody who's working with indigenous children to examine their own biases and their own place of privilege because you know and I can give you an example of what some of our kids are facing so we have you know well intended um daycare workers saying things like we don't allow toy guns in our facilities because we don't promote violence well we don't promote violence either but we don't mind toy guns in our facility the majority of our kids have grown up with parents that hunt or relatives that hunt I'm from multiple generations of hunters I grew up with guns my husband's an avid hunter my kids grew up with guns we're not violent but when those things get said in these mainstream institutions they have to think about the effect that has on our children so so even coming from that I'm not I don't know what they how they can learn to be good land-based educators I just think they need to learn to be good educators in general and to be mindful that you know our kids are attending these institutions and sometimes what they're facing can be can be really racist for lack of a better word and so I think if you know if people in mainstream institutions think about that and then they can reach out to community to ask elders to come in you know there's a lot of this and nothing against animal rights activists but I don't have a problem of having you know an elder come in and teach our kids how to skin an animal how to feel dress an animal but that would be considered cruel and inhumane in some mainstream institutions so people need to be mindful of that I think and so that's why I think it's really important for us to take on the role and by us I mean indigenous people it needs to come from us thank you Patsy when I started this journey in education and 17 plus years ago I started to think about how many times we alienate and we leave community and families outside of the school how we don't do a good job of inviting them in to share that their skills and their abilities we don't go meet them in their spaces of learning and knowledge so you bring forth an important point Patsy as you talked about the variety of skill sets that families have and the variety of understandings that are out there for us to learn but it always comes with an ethical reciprocal relationship I think those are very key and essential pieces and I think it's important to understand that that's the role of good education that's a role of a good educator is to have ethical reciprocal relationships that are ongoing so Jimmy Therrien asked the question and I want to go to Lisa for this one Lisa how do you see energy and climate change education in the lens of land based and indigenous perspective I think that's extremely important and I think that really is one of the goals in delivering land based education per se the human race is so disconnected from what is happening in our world today in regards to energy in regards to climate change our relationship with the land in the things that we do to the land is now affecting us and so through opportunities of land based learning we're hoping to really instill in our children the importance of taking care of the earth the importance of having that connection with her because that was really one of our responsibilities that the we were given as indigenous people and so they really do go hand in hand without a doubt thank you Lisa I did an interview this morning with blue sky radio and one of the things I was thinking about when we were thinking about climate change and the importance of land based education if we're talking about the water if they go in the interact with the water they'll see how people are are changing that how the way in which we construct society and construct our environment how we're we're actually having quite a negative impact on the water but again that's things that we feel through our experience I want to pull up our our first text question and this text question is to willy how do we not label the trees or the birds or the different species we come across when we are on the land teaching land based healing to our children what is the proper way to approach that thanks from roland nsiat and saskatoon thank you good question the initial the initial engagement with with the land really has to be to take children out there to take youth out on the land it's it's our belief it's the belief of our people that if we take the children out on the land the land will teach them and and that's the whole the whole premise that that that is the intent allow the land to teach the children to teach us and in the same way with if we go back to our creation narratives all the different plants all the animals all the terrestrial beings one by one spoke to the creator at that time and told the creator make the creator how they would help us as human beings and in that narrative lies the whole idea that we have to allow the land to tell us what it wants we have to allow we have to tell the land also in terms of what we want and this goes back to Lisa's point that we have to we've lost contact with the land and and so the the tree themselves that the animals that the plants they are the ones that tell us what their purpose is and that information flow is what's critical or you're not going to have a tree standing they're telling you i am good for this purpose and why i'm good i'm good to heal this sickness and all that we're not going to listen we're not going to hear them in that way there's a different way of messaging that happens when we are out on the land and it's a different way of messaging messaging we we need to get in tune with and to train ourselves to be able to to hear that so the plants will tell us what they are good for but first we need to engage our children to be able to feel the world around them to be able to feel the lands and the plants and animals and in that way have capacity to hear messages from those beings what a beautiful way to understand that willy it's um you know it's so true how the land will continue to teach us and guide us the other day i was going out for research with a new researcher and they said well what's the plan what's the plan what are we going to do what does it look like and i said the plan will come to us it'll it'll come as we as we experience this it'll come in the most natural format that it is and so many times we want to classify and understand exactly how it will be what it will be and sometimes you're right willy we just need to go back to listening to the land and understanding what it has to tell us patsy when i read your bio i was thinking about all the chairs and the councils that you sat on and i have a question from helen van veen and it is is there funding available to create projects of land-based learning a lot of work to try to do it but um there are and i i can't listen here right now but um you can also do some significant fundraising around it which is which is what we've done and and it's interesting how many people are interested in it and want to help so we have a multitude of institutions in new brunswick that are excited about what we're doing and you know they reach out often to help us so you know big companies so like mech mountain equipment co-op um you know will sometimes um help folks out um and i'm just going to rack on my brain trying to think of some of these other places that can help out applying for funding is not one of my favorite things to do but it is one of the things i'm forced to do um but yeah but and it is well worth it so there's also uh we applied for funding through the uh toronto dominion uh friends of the environment uh and got a significant grant from them so you have to get you can google it um you have to get really creative and and reach out to multiple sources uh to get the funding but it is well worth it it's well worth it and i you know just um to to just talk a little bit about what willy was saying about um you know just it's important to get kids out on the land and it can't be just a one-shot deal so it has to be on a daily regular basis because that's the only way they can experience the reality of the environment the change in the seasons and what's happening so for instance here in new brunswick um you know um we have had had incredibly significant flooding um and even our little kids are now aware of the significant flooding of the willow stoke river and um how would they know that if you just take them out once so they have to be out on a regular basis patsy i'm going to go to lisa with the same question but first i want to acknowledge the comments that you're making on facebook right now this is what i wanted to get out of this panel i wanted to ensure that um people could hear these stories and hear their story alongside what they're hearing so lisa i'd like to ask you the same question are there funding opportunities for land-based learning there there's funding opportunities uh again at provincial levels probably at uh federal levels being in the the field of education and having um to be under the federal government there was opportunity for funding but ultimately what our community did under our leadership is they they basically said that this is a priority and we will find the money if the money is needed to have these um activities to get equipment to do what we have to do and again i want to reiterate that it it does take some creativity but uh the reality is money is probably about the easiest thing to get in in this regard and even then when it's not really there a lot of it is coming from the parents the parents have also made it a priority so again depending on where the priority is within the communities communities can do it again creativity and and and looking at different ways to do what you need to do and get what you need to get thank you very much lisa lisa i'm going to stick with you i have one more request that's coming in from our comments and it says that lisa has an amazing natural playground in the forest of pick river i'm wondering if she can share how they develop this beautiful space for the children so that natural playground is actually at our early childhood learning center and again they came from the concepts that our children especially at that age need opportunity for natural place places places and again it's not so much giving them all the toys giving them all the commercial type equipment and toys for them to to utilize it really is about giving them the space in a natural setting amongst the trees amongst the the ground and and just giving them some small naturally based equipment or things to to kind of trigger their curiosity and letting them go at it and again i reflect on on our moose camp when our children are out there a lot of them are not taking commercial toys out there to occupy and it's funny because i over the years i've seen the girls and boys they come up with their own games and and they're doing it using rocks they're using it trees they're using pieces of wood so it really we're so used to providing kids with something to do with equipment with with toys that that don't come naturally and we're not allowing their minds to grow with their natural environment so when we do take those things away it takes a little bit of time but it comes kids are curious and they're smart and our our our natural playground for our early childhood center really fosters that philosophy thank you lisa i want to acknowledge erin bulla star chief at mosquito school and mosquito grizzly bears head lean man first nation sascatch when telling us that land based learning is happening for the great pre k to grade eight students in their school i want to acknowledge that many times these programs and this type of learning is happening it's for us to seek out and find the resources and the people that we can partner with to to develop this my next question is to willie and it's how do you get non-indigenous people that are in control of provincial education systems to include land based education in the curriculum when they do not understand the importance of it well it is happening here and there it's happening and i think that the task for all of us whether in in school within curriculum development within the community is to make that bandwagon of land based learning so exciting that people want to get on we have to make it evidence-based that it is it does change attitudes i know gifted children for example will have a lot of problems in school by the way really respond to land based learning and i think if we if we start to change if we make the bandwagon so exciting to be on that people want to come on board and there's evidence-based for successes in that area i think it'll keep growing it's it's and right now we're in a process i think we're in a process of experimenting that that's how i see it we are currently experimenting and we haven't really fine tuned this whole process yet because we're still defining we're still trying to find out what to what what it is really that where we have to teach and learn uh so it's an experiment but we need to really do need to create models because if you're asking the province to to create land based education for example well give them a model if they don't know how to do it they need a model to do it they need somebody to teach them and i know there are a lot of teachers out there right now in the classrooms perhaps watching here that are engaged with this and still trying to understand understand it or working to um uh put in in effect their understanding what land based education is i know it they're out there and we just have to allow this to continue and make it exciting make it really exciting so that a lot of people including families in the communities the parents want to get involved with these activities so make it exciting i'm going to stick with you willy on this on the second part of this question i think it pairs really well with what you just said it's from bird fox school i think bird fox for tuning in from south central Saskatchewan and the question is how do we balance needing to measure learning marks and credits when we are trying to see learning as a process not a product Dustin i'm going to get you later for this question it's perhaps a question i really haven't thought of but um and that's why i think the the kree have a term for ma mo kamatwin this word talks about uh getting together getting together all all the different people involved curriculum what kind of curriculum needs to be developed how does it need to be formatted how does it need to be processed like i said these this is an experiment and these are the this is the fine tuning that needs to happen and and i think there are people out there who are skilled and very articulate and they can they can make the bandwagon so exciting by uh you know formatting new models and that's that's that's the current struggle i mean not it's not so much a struggle but it's a current that it's the current process the current progress excellent i've continued to look at my phone and see the texts that are coming in about this conversation i want to acknowledge uh nightep and ubc the program is learning to incorporate land-based learning in their program so they can localize and authentically teach it as we enter our careers also um um meggy uh sinwink is pairing retired teachers and students would be great combining learning experiences such beautiful things that you're putting forth and ideas that are happening and stemming from this conversation i'd now like to turn to patsy to ask her what are the main impacts or transformations that land-based learning has on the community um well i i think it's still uh an excitement as willy mentioned about learning in general um but it also encouraged us to um find a way to teach the language uh more of the language so our our languages here in the maritimes are um we're at risk of losing them and um the most in one in one of the most interesting things that happened early on in the program was how the educators um said it was so much easier to teach the language in that natural environment because the language already exists around all of that where is in a classroom you know they had to stop and think about how do i translate that you know the desk or a chair or a cup uh into um um malice and out on the land um they didn't even have to think because everything that is there the language already existed around it so it was incredibly exciting uh for them to you know to come back and talk about that i'm not even sure if i answered your question yes you did patsy thank you i want to acknowledge also jane archuck um schools in the northwest territories have been offering land-based opportunities for students of all ages from preschool to college i want to acknowledge that because this is not a brand new concept land-based learning it is thousands of years old and if we go back to our indigenous roots of many of us we will see that our main of main places of learning and spaces of learning happened on the land so willy part of the reason why we wanted to do this interactive panel is because people could ask questions based on what we're saying so i want to go to michelle thibault's comment so she says willy how do we create the models that you're referencing the models that i would be thinking of um it doesn't just tell us this is thousands of years old this um come come from our culture of course the models how how did we live with the land how did our people live with the land how did they how were they humans on the land so the models those models come to us from the past but if we're thinking contemporaneously for example if we had a lesson say a curriculum one page curriculum paper we're following in school well that can develop to develop into a whole lot more for example you need we would need to do exercises or maybe even have a camp setting where we do the different exercises so that becomes a camp setting becomes a part of the model not only a hunting camp or you know but a community camp my could also be part of it but it and and we can have the young people videotaping the whole the different exercise that are happening within that within the camp for example skinning deer or hunting rabbits or choke cherry crushing or singing or dancing any of these that they themselves the young people themselves start to create those models that they'll create the videos of how to do choke cherry crushing for example they will interview elders they will they will then sit in a feast setting maybe a feast setting where they eat everybody eats gets to eat what they've created and everybody gets to watch what they what what what they've done so it becomes a very holistic and very expanded if you want to call it curriculum unit but these models these processes to teach about intuition in the classroom to have exercises in intuition development to put to create context where that intuition works and to include many people were that that kind of intuition might be helpful or interactive and so forth and so forth this becomes what we as teachers would know as curriculum unit it becomes a very expanded exercise of not only learning about the land but actually taking ownership of that learning to create videos and to and to show it to the people and to be able to teach it to the people this is what I call models and and and and I think it that would be my response Dustin so thank you very much Willie we want to go to a final question here to wrap this up and I'll first go to Patsy and then Lisa and we'll allow Willie an opportunity to gather his thoughts and take a breath here and I won't hit him with five questions in a row so Patsy the final question we have for you is if we can take one thing away from each of each of this for land based learning what are your final thoughts do it just do it it's and don't complicate it I think you know like I said earlier if it's important you'll find a way and if not you'll find an excuse and it might mean using your creativity and it is worth it it is worth the effort it is worth the time and the and the and we will be able to reap the benefits in the next generation thank you very much pass Patsy Lisa I'd like to come to you with the same question if if there's one thing that we can take away from land based learning what are your final thoughts or that it takes time but the longer you sit in wait the longer you're going to see the results it ultimately is one of the best things that we've done in our community and we may not see a change immediately tomorrow but we are seeing changes as the children have been involved in this in the last 15 years so again don't be scared like Patsy said it just has to be done find a way to do it reach out there get community and parents involved and you'll see the successes come along the way wonderful last thought Lisa now I'd like to turn that over to Willie Willie can I get your last thoughts on what's one thing that we need to take forward the land based learning don't think that really strikes me all the time is that this is about us each and every one of us this is about our humanity it's it starts to scour our ourselves about what capacity we have as human beings to be able to engage in conversation with the land for example with climate change happening you know our elders have told us it's because we have been disengaged with the land that we are no longer communicating with the land the mother wants to tell us things we want to tell the mother how you know what it is that we need in our lives so that capacity that inner capacity that is ultimately what we're trying to develop and that's what the old people have always stressed that you know to be a good human being develop your side develop develop your inwardness your your spiritual self and your capacity to do to treat the rest of the world the best way that you can as a good human being wonderful final words willy we would like to do further digital forms and what we'd ask you to do is please send us your thoughts on what you'd like to see at contact at ncci.ca also i would like to give deep thanks to the three panelists who are present here today i'd also like to thank everybody who's tuned in and who's provided comments and questions this is such a beautiful conversation that requires much more work as we've identified here today there are many inlets and outlets as to what we can observe and come alongside to to further this thank you to all the guests thank you for all the experiences that they've faced in their lives so they can bring forth those those stories of experience and thank you to all the people who have logged in and i hope you to continue this conversation on here and after in the conclusion and years going on i please encourage you to go to our website at ncci.ca to look at the many stories that are happening across canada the many indigenous knowledges that communities feel are important for people to learn and to continue the conversation of learning and collaborating with each other so we can make a more beautiful world in education thank you very much chi mckwitch to all who have been here today