 in 20 posts a day, like for 20 years straight. No, 20 posts a day for three years straight before the first brand contacted me. 20 posts a day? Yeah, for three years straight, yeah. Before the first brand contacted me. Like I went through so many trials and tribunations as soon as people saw me wear a crown and a robe. You know, I got racist abuse. You know, my son got racist abuse, just me posting a picture of him like, people just didn't get it. And I'm like, how can you guys get sort of set because I've put a crown and a robe on? But that kind of fueled the fire. That fueled it more. So I was like, okay, let me just really push it in their face. You know, I would turn up to events, parties with a crown and a robe, you know, walking through people like, this guy's crazy. But I loved it. I loved it. To be a true successful entrepreneur, you have to be at the stage where you can leave your business for about three months. And it's okay. I always say to entrepreneurs, no one's coming to save you, you know. No matter what you think, oh, my friends, my friends, no, no, no. When it comes down to it, it's down to you. No one's coming to save you. No one's coming to help you. And I know it sounds really bad to kind of install that into them. But if they have that mentality like, okay, I have to be self-reliant. I have to know when to use people, when not to use people, who to trust, who not to trust. They can have a better adaptation of how to move forward. When do you actually become an entrepreneur? For me, I started calling myself an entrepreneur when I actually made a decision to be one. I hadn't made a single pound yet. I hadn't even taken any meaningful steps. I had just decided that this is the identity that I wanted for myself. And from that point onwards, I started to move towards that dream. In this episode, we have Franklin Barton, probably known as the King of Trainers. He's been a founder for more than 20 years and he has been through the various stages of entrepreneurship, from the point of becoming a millionaire to almost losing everything to rebuilding all it gain. His story is one of perseverance as well as the skills and the insights that it really takes to be a successful founder. Do you mean this conversation to hear Franklin's definition of what it really means to be a successful entrepreneur? Hi, Franklin. How are you doing, bro? Hey, how are you doing? You're doing well. Yeah, I'm doing well. Good, good, good. Thank you for being on our podcast. No, thanks for inviting me, man. Thank you for reaching out. I appreciate it. I doubt. Like, I've been hearing about you for a very long time. Really? Because of what you're doing. Yeah, like, I remember when, I think it's been at least like 10 years or so, since I've been hearing about the work you've been doing. Wow. Even then, you've grown massively. So, yes, in terms of you to be here today. No, thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So, for state episodes, the topic I wanted to focus on with you, in particular, is the idea around being an entrepreneur. Because I think, as I've been going for my own journey, I started my business like, yeah, 10, 12 years ago, something like that. But I've even had, I guess, a question to myself of whether I'm really an entrepreneur. And I think when I look up to people like yourself, who have had multiple successful businesses, of course, you've had some hardship along the way. As I really wanted to dive into that subject and look out, what does it take to be a successful entrepreneur in terms of like, the way that you think, the way that you act, et cetera, and dive into that a little bit deeper? No problem. Okay, so let's start off with this. Yeah. In your opinion, what is an entrepreneur? Wow. You know, I think entrepreneurs, there's so many different stages, right? I consider myself an entrepreneur when I was a kid. You know, I was in the playground, selling matchbox cars and doing like all sorts of transactions just to get extra money, right? But I feel that there's different levels. I feel that, you know, working for yourself and working a nine to five, you could be an entrepreneur. Sometimes we kind of look at not working other places and just working on your own business, just being entrepreneurial, which it is. But, you know, having a nine to five and doing something else is entrepreneurial. Just doing something just outside the box, outside the box of entrepreneurial too. But then there's kind of like that whole high level of like serial entrepreneurism and stuff like that. And then I feel that to be a true successful entrepreneur, you have to be at the stage where you can leave your business for about three months. And it's okay, do you know what I mean? You know, I have some businesses that you can do that and some businesses you just can't. So sometimes I try myself whether I'm successful or not. So it's one of those ones. So obviously you mentioned you started when you was quite young, starting off in the playground. So there's a lot of people who have that story, like selling sweets or cards or whatever. If you didn't start kind of like young age, can you still be an entrepreneur? 100%, it's like, you know, it is some people are just born with it, but then some people can kind of learn and adapt. Do you get what I mean? I mean, I feel that when I was young and I was doing that, I didn't really see it as entrepreneurism because I didn't know it was. Does that make sense? For me, it was more kind of just, you know, I need extra money to just buy sweets and stuff. And then as you develop and you grow, for me, I realized I didn't want to work for anyone when I was very young, from like about 15 or something like that. I realized now I don't work for anyone. And then I'd done a small stint at an advertising agency called BBH, and then I remember, advertising's like, I love advertising. I love like kind of putting stuff in play, like marketing and stuff like that. And I learned very, I interviewed a young man at the time. I was younger, but I interviewed him and you know, he was in advertising field, but he was one of 10 teams. He was like a designer and had a copywriter you had to have a team. And then he was working literally for free for like a whole year, just to be chosen to be made a proper employee of this massive advertising agency. And I was young, and you know, I was making money myself and I was like, so how do you kind of live? And he said his wife takes care of him, which is there's nothing wrong with that. But for me, that's not, I saw that and he changed my life. That's not something I wanted to kind of do, you know, and I don't want to be working for someone for free, and this guy was brilliant. He was working on big projects, et cetera. And then for them to say like, like thank you for your time and goal. Do you know what I mean? To be clear, was he working for that company for free during that time? Yeah, well, yeah, he was on like a kind of one year internship and then that's how they do it because of the amount of jobs available after graduation of designing that time. This was many years ago. There wasn't, so they had to kind of choose a team of 10 and he was getting 50 pounds a week for travel, you know, and that just changed my life. I was like, I hate doing that. So I just strived and I said, I have to kind of work for myself. So is, would you say that money has always been a big motivation for you? It was. When I was younger, my whole thing was I wanted to be a millionaire before I was 30. It was all about money, money, money, money. And growing up, well, you know, I grew up in Tottenham, you see certain things, you just want to have more. Do you know what I mean? It's like that whole hunger for more, nice trainers, nice this, nice that. And it was always about money. And then when I kind of, you know, reached my goals, so to speak, kind of property of making them, like having a million in property, it kind of changed when I realized it wasn't all that it seemed to be, you know, and then I just kind of took a step back and fought to myself, let me, let me just figure out what I love and how to kind of turn that into money. So I guess right now, there'll be a lot of people who with associate entrepreneurship business with being money, being the focus. Is that the right mentality? No, no, no, just this is me personally. I mean, obviously you want to make money. And money is always a great driving factor. And if I'm honest, it's so sad, but people only respect the money. Do you know what I mean? Some people, like you said, you see my journey, some people respect the journey. But if you look on the outside, looking in, when someone has nice things and all that sort of stuff, oh, my God, the money, the money, the money. Then, you know, sometimes, and I don't mean to say this in a bad way, sometimes a lot of people may not know where the money's coming from, because there's many horror stories of this XYZ. And then they just celebrate, oh, my God, he's got loads of money, he's an entrepreneur, he's this, he's that, he's that. But then I've got to the stage where I respect the journey. What are you doing it for? Like, I mean, like, why are you putting yourself because it's not easier to work in a nine to five. And that's what a lot of people think. It could be more rewarding at the end if there is an end from, you know, a real entrepreneur that will say there's never an end. But, you know, what are you doing it for? And where's the journey? And that's kind of what I respect more. So in your case, obviously, money was the beginning factor. 100%. But then why are you doing it now? Like, what are you doing it for? So for me, I'd be honest, like, after I kind of went through the stint of, I would say, mildly successful, getting to where I need to get to, and then nearly losing it, I just said, what do I love? What do I really kind of love doing? And for me, it's fashion, footwear, meeting people and stuff. And I turn that whole thing into a business and it's just fulfilled me, you know. And then in the kind of, quote unquote, king of trainers world of footwear world, I've achieved everything that can be achieved in my personal opinion. And then I just kind of strive to kind of push the boundaries more. So for me now, I'm literally doing it for the love because I love doing what I'm doing. OK, so there's a lot of, I guess, lessons that people can reflect on there, but also at the same time for, I think to myself, like, five or 10 years ago, when it's like, yeah, it'll be nice to say, I can do this for the love, like, it'll be nice to say, money's not important, but in the reality, when you are starting a business, it's kind of key. It's everything, to be fair. How would I, I guess, someone starting an entrepreneurial journey balance that where you need money to survive? Yeah, well, I mean, I don't, because for me, I like kind of went all in, like I stopped everything and I just said, OK, and I just found a way. And I wouldn't say everyone should do that because it was very hard for me. I would say people can, you know, there's so many different schemes and it's hard. I'm not saying it's easy to raise money at all, but I would say try to have some sort of income coming in anyway through a part-time job and then kind of try to fit your dream around that, you know, not saying that it's a backup plan because technically every time it's a backup, you're back up in it, you don't go forward, but you have to kind of look at your circumstance. Everyone has a different circumstance. Some people can be like, oh, I can live with my parents, some people can't, do you know what I mean? So everyone has a different circumstance, but don't rely, get to the point where money's not coming in and then, you know, it's your detriment, do you know what I mean? So I would say please, like, try to kind of figure out, OK, what makes me money and how I can fulfill my dreams, you know, around it. So moving away, I guess, on the topic of money. So we understand that having a clear vision is important. Making money to actually survive is important and be practical around that. Indeed. What are some of the other things that you need to be a successful entrepreneur? You need to have a Kanye West self-belief. I know it sounds crazy, right? He may not be people's favorite person, but that guy's self-belief is insane and I've followed his journey since the beginning. And for me, I mean, I kind of have the same self-belief in the sense that you might see, you might Google me and you might see me walking around town with a crown and a robe on, do you know what I mean? That was kind of my branding and how I got people to kind of stand out and then look at me. So I think you do need to believe, you know, deeply in what you want to achieve, like in a way that it doesn't matter what people say, it's unbreakable, you can't kind of, people can't fathom where you're going and that's how you have to kind of think. So I 100% hear that and there've been times in my, I guess my life where I've had to almost act like delusional, like everything is telling me this is not going to work, but I have to keep pushing forward. But that's not easy. It's not easy. Not only that, there've been times when I've had to look at myself and say, I might just lie into myself right now. So what do you do when you have, I guess that feeling I wear? And I've had that feeling a lot sometimes, you know, but you have to be practical and smart. Do you get what I mean? You know, like with every business that's ups and downs, I've been in business, this is my 20th year self-employed, you know, and you've got to kind of be like, okay, what is working? What's not working? Kind of figure it out quite quickly. So then, you know, okay, where do I want to go? And what makes me feel happy? I think sometimes people jump into altruism because they see how other people do it, but it might not be for them. What actually makes them happy? Do you get what I mean? And that's what you have to kind of look at. And if you're not happy doing what you're doing, you're never going to be happy even if you make money. Does that make sense? You have to be like, okay, I love this and I'm making money from it, do you get what I mean? And that's kind of where you have to kind of look at. So, with that said then, when do you know when to stop? Because you've had multiple companies, you start at a time, you stop some. When do you get to the point where you realize this isn't working or there's a better opportunity? Yeah, when it isn't actually working. And that's what we just have to be practical. If it's not working, then it's just not working. If the money's not coming in, if it's not achieving its goals, it's not working. And sometimes, yeah, you can flog a dead horse and then it might revive and do you know what I mean? But you have to kind of be at a position where you'd be like, okay, how can I pivot? Do you know what I mean? How can I reinvent? How can I get to this place where I'm like, you know, I'm getting to a different space. So, you know, yeah. So, one thing that you speak about a lot is being willing and able to reinvent yourself. Can you tell us a time when you've done that for yourself? Yeah, oh God. I mean, like, I wouldn't even call it reinvention. It's more of adaption, you know, because, you know, with my whole King of Trainers name, everyone said the story about myself and JD Sports. You know, love to JD Sports now. I love you guys. But there was a time when they tried to take me into court over the King of Trainers name, you know, and I was literally just on Twitter and I've had the name since a kid. Like, it's a nickname from school. My mom loved Boris Becker. She loved tennis. She'll buy me trainers. My friends used to call me King of Trainers, right? And then it developed into, I tried to do a block in 99, then, you know, I'd done different parties and it was just like kind of a local nickname. Then it went to social media. I registered, I had a forum called Fabs Network, which I built. It was a social media website. On there, it was, I had a King of Trainers section and I just registered Twitter to promote that section. Then my old friend said, I'm just doing, I had a son of possible nothing. Why didn't JD Sports be the King of Trainers? For me, I was just talking about trainers. I wasn't, it wasn't like serious. But then they, you know, came at me and said, look, they're gonna take me to court, cease and assist and all of that. And then from me, I had to make the decision like, okay, do I now turn my personal brand into like a major brand? Do you know what I mean? And that was kind of a way of saying, okay, I reinvent myself. So when I went through that back and forth with them and then they decided to kind of back down and kind of leave the situation, I registered the Instagram and I thought, okay, how can I get my word out Instagram? And I started to turn it into a news page and then, you know, posting up sneaker news, foreign news, et cetera, et cetera and kind of just freshen the competition. I mean, like working hard and everyone I was doing 20 posts a day, like for 20 years straight, no, 20 posts a day for three years straight before the first brand contacted me. 20 posts a day? Yeah, for three years straight, yeah, before the first brand contacted me, you know. So in terms of that whole multiple posting thing, I was one of the first people to do that. And obviously people have now done it and come, you know, they've been successful at it. And from there, at the time when I was looking at the whole game and everyone doing the news thing and I thought to myself, no, let me make it more of a personality around myself. You know, I never used to show my face and I've used to, you know, and then people didn't understand who's this person. And I think I went to an event and then I was wearing a crown and people like, take off that crown, like, you're not like anything that, if you don't understand, it's actually a proper brand. Like it's a person in it. You know, then I started to say, okay, let me put my face in front of the camera and then let me go that way. And then by me doing that, I've had more opportunities than I can ever imagine. So there are two things that you said that I want to dive into a little deeper. So firstly, there's 20 posts a day. That takes a hell of a lot of, I guess, perseverance and consistency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I would love to touch on relating to that as well is, this idea of being your face of your brand. So like, a lot of people don't want to be on, they don't want to put their face up. Yeah, yeah. So let's start with the posts. Yeah, so the post was a way to kind of work hard in the competition. Cause a lot of people were doing the news pages, but I was like, okay, how can I make mine more potent? You know? And I was giving it in a more of a kind of down to earth way, not technical, I was talking, saying my own opinion and people may like it, people may not like it. Do you know what I mean? What I would do, I wake up at five o'clock in the morning cause the way sneak and use works is the US will always get the kind of major news. And I'll scour all the blogs on the US side. And then I would use that information and then regurgitate it on my page with kind of my own kind of funny and so concepts and jokes. And then it just, it just got crazy. Like, you know, and then I'll just, from there it just went and went and went. So how did you find, oh, Vava, what was it inside you that allowed you to wake up five o'clock every day? Yeah. 20 times a day, all of that. I wanted to be the best. I mean, that was it. I wanted to be the biggest. I mean, I wanted people to know my name. I think it was very, I was very kind of, what's the word I'm looking for, direct and intentional with my actions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. So I was very intentional in being the best. And that's kind of where I was. I didn't wanna, you know, when you have the title King of Trainings, you have to be the king. There's no left or right. You have to be the king. You have to let people know, oh, you're the king. And I think some people kind of got misconstrued with the name King of Trainings. Yeah, it was a nickname. I've got a lot of trainers, et cetera, et cetera, but it was more so helping people recognize the scene as a whole, do you get what I mean? And I think that's kind of, because I went through so many trials and tribunations as soon as people saw me wear a crown and a robe. You know, I got racist abuse. You know, my son got racist abuse, just me posting a picture of him, like people just didn't get it. And I'm like, how can you guys get sort of set because I've put a crown and a robe on? But that kind of fueled the fire, that fueled it more. So I was like, okay, let me just really push it in their face. You know, I would turn up to events, parties with a crown and a robe, you know, walking through people like, this guy's crazy, hey, but I loved it. I loved it, yeah. And that lead beautifully into the second part of the question that I'll ask around, now that you've became the face of your band just to not show yourself and not have to, but at the same time, being as, I guess, confident or direct about what you wanna accomplish, it opens you up to personal attacks. Indeed, indeed. So I know that's why a lot of people will try to avoid being the face of their brand. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you see, the thing is, right, I've been in business for a long time and there are certain businesses you can do and no one has to see you, right? But then when you look at creating a personality, it's hard to do that without being seen, unless you're Banksy. I mean, you know, I've actually seen Banksy before, by the way. I ain't gonna go into that. But it's one of those ones where you have to kind of be like, okay, how do I separate myself from other people? And you do have to have that thick skin because people are gonna attack you, no matter what people are gonna attack you. They, you know, it's sad because I think we live in this society where the minute you're the face, the minute you do something wrong, they just wanna rip you down. Forget what you've done, they just wanna find the way, oh, here's the face, let's point our finger at him and let's tell him how we feel. Do you get what I mean? And that's how it goes sometimes and you just have to kind of swallow that if you're willing to take that risk. So what advice would you give to somebody who right now is thinking about, I don't wanna put my face out there. I wanna be able to just hide behind my brand but they also know doing so, putting their face there might take them further. Yeah, and I think they have to toy with that situation. You see, like, even with my personal brand, I've got King of Trainers, the personality, but then I've got Franklin and Broughton and what I've done, I've built up Franklin and Broughton in a way that I've got my, like I always advise people, this might be kind of topic a bit, is register your personal name as a domain name, right? Because the internet space is getting smaller, et cetera, et cetera, right? But what I've done is I've developed it in a way where, yeah, I have my personality but my personal brand, Franklin and Broughton, can speak for itself. Do you get what I mean? And professionally, you can't talk to me. That's the thing, professionally I've done talks in places that people be like, what, you know? And that's where I've kind of been able to balance, okay, professionally I've got that and then on my gimmicky side, I've got King of Trainers and think people kind of, you know, it depends how you kind of want to position yourself, thought leader, personality, gimmick, whatever, and how you kind of can balance that, do you get what I mean? Because yeah, people can say, oh, King of Trainers, there's a crowd of stuff, but look at my resume. They don't say it, look at my resume and then they'll be, oh, because people have done that. People have been like, ah, let me Google, let me see if this guy's really, you know, yeah, and then they're like, ah, yeah, he's really about that. So you've spoken about your son being attacked, at least online, I guess, ultimately you're confident that you've displayed. Yeah, yeah. How do you deal with that? It's hard, it's hard. I mean, the actual incident is we, there's a pair of trainers that was really expensive and myself and my friend Chris, we took a shoot of him and he was only two at the time and this picture was so beautiful, it was him wearing some trainers and holding the trainers and they were like, two or three thousand pounds, each had two pairs, we had two pairs and we posted it and it was the most viral post of that year, like all the blogs posted, every single blog posted it and then people come onto his page and I had a page for him called Prince of Trainers. This is before Duda Kelly done his son's thing. I was like, I'm gonna call him Prince of Trainers, I'm gonna have got Prince of Him wearing all my trainers and I was gonna make a kind of personality out of him and people, unfortunately, came onto his page and said, why is that F in N words got these trainers? And it was horrible, it was horrible to the point, yeah, his mom had a guy at me and said like, and I had to kind of just leave that alone. But you see, the thing about the internet, and this is what a lot of people have to realize, is the people are keyboard warriors. I have been insulted, I've been called N word online, I've had my fam, I've had death threats, everything you can imagine, but no one has ever said it to my face. And that's what people have to kind of really kind of say, okay, the people that you're engaging with in this manner, are they brave enough to say it to your face? And I've been to the same events with my crown on my robe and people still haven't said it, you know what I mean? And I'm just like that, maybe it's where I'm from. I'm just like that. But you know, I know sometimes other people can't handle those types of abuse and I don't really recommend anyone kind of go through or just have the kind of thick skin I have because it's not realistic, you know? I even done a TED talk about teaching people about online abuse and stuff, like from a young age, you know, it's a business again and other business that I tried and it go through well. But it's just one of those situations, you've got to kind of weigh up what works for you, yeah. So it makes sense, obviously, figure out what is, what's the angle you want to do? Do you want to be a public face you've done, et cetera? But like you say, not everybody can deal with that, that type of abuse and can they not deal with it? I also don't think you should necessarily have to. No, no, 100%. But then what do you do? So let's say you are a founder right now or you want to go on to create a social brand or whatever it is you're doing. But you don't want to deal with that abuse but you also still want to put yourself out there. You see, that's the thing. Unfortunately, depending on, it doesn't even depend on what business, all successful people are going to get abused. Like it's something, it's unfortunate that people feel the need to point their frustrations at someone else. You know, I'm online and I crack joke and all that sort of stuff. But you would never catch me just going on someone's page just to abuse them. You will not catch me do that because I don't see what is the point. If someone's doing whatever they're doing, just okay, cool, just keep it moving. If you don't like it, don't comment. If you don't like it, unfollow. But some people are so kind of disturbed by their own reality that they have to mess up someone else's. Do you know what I mean? And unfortunately, all successful people are going to get some sort of abuse attack because the minute you do something wrong, oh, you done this wrong and blah, blah, you're a bad person or you said this wrong and it's just unfortunate. This is the way to learn we live in. And I feel when you're in the business space, you have to understand that. Do you know what I mean? Okay, they're going to see every word, you know, and then when you become more popular, oh my God, they're going to go for your Twitter. Do you know what I mean? You just have to kind of, you know, and this is one of the reasons why I went into social media from a young age to four people of a young age because everything you do does come back. It's a boomerang, they'll find a way to, oh, you said this about this person and then, you know, so you just have to be very careful, especially from a young age. Okay, so we already know that you're going to do with money as an entrepreneur, like you're going to deal with haters, etc. Indeed. And on top of that, you're going to have to difficult your run in the business. All of that is going to be weighing on just your mental health. 100%. What do you do or what would you advise people do to, I guess, bounce that out and look after themselves when they go to school? Well, my first thing is to advise people, just from my personal experience, do not weigh, do not let things weigh in your head because at the end of the day, as long as you've got your health and your family's okay, nothing else matters. And that's what you have to remember all the time in business. You can go through so many things, I've been through near enough hell in business, but it's not that deep. Do you get what I mean? It's not actually that deep. It may seem deep at the time. Oh my God, these people, whatever, whatever. But as long as you've got your health, you can always have a chance to kind of move forward. And also try, as an entrepreneur and as a business owner or a person, you have to be passive. You've got to be more of a fixer than a warrior. Doesn't make sense. So if the problem arises, okay, how do we fix this? How do we discuss? How do we make things happen? You know, the minute you let it worry, it will go on your mental health. It will dwell on your mental health in a way that unfortunately could hinder you. Yeah, but hearing that, that sounds like great advice, but it also sounds like it's easier said than done. Oh, it's way easier said than done. You know, look, I feel that I'm a kind of amongst an anomaly of people, right? Who can continue no matter what and it's hard. Do you get what I mean? It is dead hard. And I feel that people need to kind of really be at a place. What can I handle? Do you get what I mean? Because I handle this stuff. I've been through stuff, you know, I'm doing businesses, setting up businesses. And my father passed away as I'm doing businesses, as I'm releasing my trainer, you know, a couple, you know, before my recently my dad passed, as I'm saying, you know, so it's like, you have to be at a point where what can you do? Don't look on anyone else. And be like, oh, he went through this or she went through that. Look at what I can handle. And it's okay to take a step back and be like, I can't handle this right now. You know, sometimes, especially entrepreneurs, we feel that taking a step back or kind of slowing down is a form of failure. It's not his feedback. It's this world, your body, that universe telling you, okay, I need to just chill out for a bit just because of my own mental, you know, sake. No, I can't agree with that enough. For myself, that's something that I've been public about, so I don't mind sharing it here, but yeah, I've definitely had to take a step back as well. So around, I think it was 2016, the end of 2016, like, same much was going on, personal life stuff, business was this, all of that. Like, it was completely, I guess trying to push through it all for so long. That's broke me down. Sorry. By the end of that year, like had mad anxiety, like was dealing with depression, all of that. And a part of me just wanted to see, I miss for the sake of keeping up appearances, just keep on pushing, keep doing events, keep doing that, et cetera. But then I reached a point where I'm like, ultimately my health is something that I can't get back. 100%. So I took 2017 off, took 2018 off as well, but within that time, it gave me a chance to immerse, reset, figure out what I want to do for myself, my life, my business, and instead of being able to take it much further forward. Yeah, good stuff. Well done, well done. I think sometimes, you know, as fellow entrepreneurs, we have to tell people when they do that, it's okay, well done, because it's not easy. It's so not easy, right? It's a hard, hard thing to do, to just take a step back and kind of leave it. And then, you know, but well done. Thank you. So I guess my question to you of that is, have you ever had to slow down and take a step back? Oh, of course. Of course, you know, I mean, you know, like when I was younger, I had a mildly successful installation company. I was installing mortgages, right? And then that was part of my thing. Okay, I want to be a millionaire, but I'm blood and I'm investing in property. And then, you know, we get into the point. And then literally, I'm like, oh man, I'm like a couple of properties in. The credit crunch is 2008, it's on the horizon. I lose the contract that I had was installing the mortgages. Then... You're saying multi-gims? Multi-gims, yeah. Multi-gims like, like, like fitness, treadmills, water rowers, concept twos, all the mortgages. Into people's houses? Yeah, houses, yeah, yeah. I've done, I've done some really good places, like the American Ambassador's House, I've done one at his place. I've done one for Natalie Portman. I've done one for the ex-Pakistani Prime Minister. Done, I've done it, yeah, done a few, a few bits of pieces. So yeah, you're saying... Yeah, no, but I mean, you know, so I went through a time when like my tenants weren't paying their rent, you know, and I was trying to pay the rent, you know, I had to rent out one of my places. So to be clear, so you're doing the installation business? Yeah, yeah. You're owning property? Yes. And they're saying that the tenants, Yeah, they weren't paying their rent, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was paying like probably like three mortgages at one time. And then like by losing the contract, I was earning a certain kind of money and I was thinking I was doing, I thought I was doing okay. Then, you know, it got to a stage where I was like, oh man, how do I kind of get back to kind of earn this type of money where I was? So I was doing like three jobs, three contracts, all at one go. And I was building myself out. I was really building myself out. I was working like, I remember I was working like at Tilbury Docks from like six in the morning to 12 in the afternoon. Then I had a courier contract where I was doing 12 to run about seven, eight o'clock. I was sleeping in my car for two hours. Then I'd do a nighttime alcohol delivery from like 10 to four a.m. or five a.m. Then go straight to Tilbury Docks and I was doing that. And I just, I just burnt myself out. It was too much. It was way too much for me. How did you recover from that? I thought I'm out. Exactly what you did. I took time out. You know, I remember writing to all my creditors, all the people that owed money, the mortgage companies. And I said, look, this is what's happening. I'm not running away from my responsibilities. I'm going to make sure you get your money, everything. And then I just, I just took time out and started to kind of, you know, because I'm a graphic designer as well, work part-time doing my graphics, trying to sort out all those different things. And then it worked out. So hearing you speak, you have started so like, more business than I've been able to count. Do you know, do you know how many you've actually started so far? I don't know, man. But I mean, I've had quite a few graphic, had a help service for, for there's creatives to help them find work experience, an installation company, then like a graphic design company called FabGraphics, an installation company called FabVan, plus a man and van removal called FabVan. Social media, teaching and consultancy, property, investment. I had a, I've had a few studios as well. Like I had a studio where I sold trainers and we'd done photography there in Wood Green. Then I had another one in Tottenham, still got that one. Yeah. Then we set up, like we've set up a retro store, which we have in a box park. Then we had us, we invested in a company called Green Machine, which is now Healthfulness. And then I'm a partner with, on Averix shop as well. You know, yeah, box park. So if I was counting correctly, that sounds like about 15 brands that you created. It's probably more, but I've probably been a bit, like, you know, and I've had business in Ghana as well. I've had a few businesses in Ghana. So with all of those companies and all the time that you're putting in, I know not all of them still exist. How do you manage to balance other parts of your life? So you've mentioned stuff like your family, except like, how does that work? It takes its toll. It takes its toll, you know, because I'm always switched on. And I feel that, like, you know, whoever my partner, like, she understands that, like, that's how it is. Do you know what I mean? Like, he's always switched on. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's kind of where it is, you know. But it's, yeah, I don't know. I just, I don't even, like, everyone knows how I am. Do you know what I mean? It's not, it's like, it's not a new thing. They know I've always been driven. I've always been, you know, and I give everyone time, you know, I give everyone time. Even now that's what a lot of people kind of, they kind of find, not weird about me to be like, but Frank, you're super busy, but you reply back to DMs, you reply back to emails, you know, you apologize, you're very intent with, you know. I'll say just an intervention of you on this, that's definitely true. Yeah, thank you, thank you. I guess, do you have to be switched on? Is that a requirement for entrepreneurship, or is that just your approach? Well, I mean, it depends. Like, you don't have to be switched on all the time, but you definitely have to be switched on to be successful, because you have to know it's opportunities, you have to know exactly how much you're putting in. Do you, I mean, it's, there's no point being a lazy entrepreneur. It's just not going to happen. It's not, it's not going to happen. Some people can be a lazy entrepreneur because they've got a kind of safety net. Do you know what I mean? I want my parents, or I've got this, I've got that. It's not for me. You can't be a lazy entrepreneur, so you have to be ready, especially, okay. Like, you know, I have to get my phone, I have to make sure what's happening is. And I can't agree with that enough. So I remember I've been on business investment programs before, so being with other entrepreneurs. I would just, sometimes when we just talking, and you realize that we're not playing the same game. So I was out here putting my, my last savings, getting some help from family to make things work. And they legitimately had an actual trust fund in their name. So it was like, if they don't win, it's cool. It's okay. They're fine. This is it. And I think having that understanding that, not everyone you're seeing around you is coming from the same place. No, no. I know when I look into, say, Mark Zuckerberg, or Jeff Bezos, most of those big tech entrepreneurs, part of the story that gets missed out is, oh yeah, their parents gave them 50K. Yeah, yeah, 100%, we can't compare ourselves. An entrepreneur's journey is individual. You cannot compare yourself to anyone. You don't know what circumstance. And sometimes it's a part of luck at the right time, the right universe came and everything kind of works out. But you just can't compare yourself. A lot of people like, that's the problem with social media, is we look at other things, oh man, he's doing it so I can do it. But you don't know what that person got behind them. Do you, I mean like, you know. Yeah, social media can be such a highlight, we are. I guess on that point then, what's one of the biggest challenges that you've had to face an entrepreneurship? I think the hate, I mean I said it earlier, but I think the hate, because like, everyone who knows me and you have to really know me, like my attention is always pure. Do you know what I mean? I don't have no bad vibes. I really want everyone to win. A lot of people say that, but I've been actively like, one of my friends the other day, he said, Frank, you're the king maker because even though you've got such a big platform, you have no problem sharing someone else who can become bigger than you. And that's what I've done. I've helped brands just become huge. I'm not gonna mention what brands, but and it's like, and this is that time when you don't have to do it. Like, yo, man, yeah, look, follow this person and follow that person. I've helped some really, really big people. Do you know what I mean? And sometimes people are like, wow, like, you know. So that's kind of, you know. So when I'm getting people say this and say that, I just realized that these people don't really know me. That's why I don't take it offensive. And were your thoughts on the entrepreneurs or the personalities that take a completely different approach? They're cutthroat, they're willing to step on people, all of that. Boy, that's them. That's them. And some people, it works for them. Do you know what I mean? You know, I've never really been like that because I'm a real believer of karma and stuff like that. Because if you look at these entrepreneurs who are cutthroat, it's not how you live, it's how you die, you know? It's how you die. I know it sounds really cold, but you can even see the tail of the tape or some of these entrepreneurs who have been cutthroat. Look what's happening to them now in the media. Do you know what I mean? You know, everything gets revealed. Do you know what I'm saying? There's no stone that doesn't go unturned. And if you've lived the life where it's been treacherous and you've done bad things, it always comes out. You just look crazy. No, I don't really believe it out. What's done in the dark does come out. Oh, it comes out. It comes out 100%, 100%. If you were to talk to an entrepreneur right now that is at the start of their journey, they are trying to figure out what to do next instead of what advice would you give them? Well, I feel that if they're just at the start of their journey, I would tell them to take some time to look at themselves and see if they really are cut out to be an entrepreneur because an entrepreneur is easy. Oh, I'm doing this, I'm an entrepreneur. But to be consistent is hard. Do you get what I mean? And to have a business where you'll move from entrepreneur to a business owner is also a transition that people just can't get heads around. So you have to really be like, am I really cut out for this? It is not easy than a nine to five. Whoever myths, everyone says, oh my God, the entrepreneur's easy. It's not easy than a nine to five. It's the hardest thing in the world. So you have to be of that mindset. Sometimes I'd be honest, I do sit down and think, should I have taken a job? Should I have, do you know what I mean? I'd sit down and think, should I have, you know, do you know what I mean? And then I just think, you know, this is just my path. This is what was meant to be for me. And it's not for everyone. But I'll say to them, are you ready for this? Yeah, because it's probably the hardest thing you're ever gonna do. So it's one thing to ask the question, but it's a totally different thing to actually know the answer. How would somebody know if they are actually cut out for this life? Well, it's consistent time or time. It's consistency. If you're consistent enough, and I mean, you know, sometimes it could be quick. It could be like, oh, I've done it two years, it's worked, I've done it three years, but you have to be consistent through the failure. You have to be consistent through the fire. And when you're consistent through the failure and the fire, that's when you know I'm really built for this. You know, things can go, whoa, oh, but then when you're hit with something, you crumble and everything falls down and you can't get back up. That's when you're like, I wasn't really ready for this. I just had a good break, you know? But you have to be consistent in a way that, okay, this is the world's coming on top of me. I'm losing everything. How can I navigate? And do I still want to continue after this? I think sometimes things get kind of misconstrued. Entrepreneurs are business owners, right? But to be a successful business owner, you have to be able to leave your business. That is a successful entrepreneur. To be able to, I said this earlier, to be able to just leave your business, you know? Because you've hired people that can do your business for you and are making your business successful without you. You have to be able to know that you can't stay at the helm. And that's even been sometimes, at my fault, I can't stay at the helm all the time. I have to be like, okay, I've employed people, this is what's happening. Let me, let me go back. So you have to kind of know that transition. That's really a big point in terms of that transition to another level of entrepreneurship. You have a finding the right people and trust in people. Oh, it's hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I've been done over by people I consider to be some of my best friends. Do you know what I mean? And it's just a shame that you have to realize that reality. But again, like I was saying, you have to have your own self-belief. I always say to entrepreneurs, no one's coming to save you, you know? No matter what you think, oh, my friends, my friends, no, no, no. When it comes down to it, it's down to you. No one's coming to save you. No one's coming to help you. And I know it sounds really bad to kind of install that into them. But if they have that mentality, like, okay, I have to be self-reliant. I have to know when to use people, when not to use people, who to trust, who not to trust, they can have a better adaptation of how to move forward. In terms of knowing who to trust or, I guess, building that network or those relationships, what advice would you give to people? Time will tell. Time will tell because there are some things and it's not even a fault of anyone. People change. So you and another person have a vision and sit down and work things out and be like, yo, we're going to do this together, man. We're going through this together. And that person will be like, ah, like a year down the line, ah, I don't really want to do this. But you're still dead set on doing it. Do you get what I mean? So you have to know, is your vision our vision or is it your vision? Do you get what I mean? And once you know as an entrepreneur, this is my vision and then people can help. As long as you know it's your vision, if that person's not there, you can still do it. Do you get what I mean? And that's how I am. I can still do anything I want to do. So if you're sharing a vision with somebody and six months, one year, two years down the road, they decide to leave, what do you do? And even like on a legal level, like how do you handle that? Okay, well, I guess in the beginning, you have to start in the beginning. I said this before, I said buying trainings are cool, but more important is account fees. But more important is also solicitor fees and getting a business set up correctly. If you can get a business set up correctly from the beginning and have like a kind of an agreement in from the beginning, so solicitor isn't about that, I feel that you will be in a better position if things break away. I feel that you should set up your business with that in mind. You know, anyone who's going into a business, I know people say, oh yeah, this is my best friend, I love him, but best friends or love her, sorry, or best friends, relationships always, not sorry, sometimes fail, sometimes fail. So you just have to have that in mind, this can be a situation that fails, what do we do if it fails? And sometimes have that honest conversation with your business partner. What happens if this fails, man? What happens if we don't reach our target? What happens if mean you fall out? Do you get, I mean, cause anything can happen. And that's just how it has to be. You just have to really go in it with an open mind. And let's be honest, there's so many tools around you, examples of things like this happening. So you have to be like, yo, can we get past this? Okay, so have the difficult conversation. Oh, 100%. Don't shoot caught nothing, it's business. Yeah, yeah. So then with that, even say, would you recommend going into business with your friends or family? Oh yeah, I would, I mean, people say it's not great. I would say, yeah, go for it. If they, you know, I've got business with my sister, my mom, everyone, my friends, you know, one of my good friends, we're in business. Of course, my friends, like, you can do that. It's just, you have to just have those conversations and just be realistic, you know. So thank you, I definitely want to say thank you so much for taking the time out to do that. No, thank you, man. Not just this podcast, but in all honesty, as I've said earlier, like watching what you've done for all these years, you've been an inspiration to a lot of us. Thank you. And no need that, but the amount that you're willing to give back to other people, young entrepreneurs, et cetera, it's beautiful to see. Thank you. And I'd love to see more people with that type of mentality in heart. Yes, let's go. There's enough for everyone. We're all going to win, we all can win. It's enough for everyone, man. Yeah. So thank you for today. No, thank you. My last question to you is, as we continue to build this podcast, is there anyone that you think would be a great guest to ask to have one in the future? Oh, goodness. I was saying my business partners, like my business partner, Charlie Barker, she's amazing, she knows everything about health and she's done a lot of business. And then one of my friends, Anthony, he's also my business partner as well. But I mean, I would say, look, aim for the skies for your guests, you know, Steven Bartlett, aim for everyone. I mean, everyone who you aspire to kind of meet, aim for them and hopefully they will reply. Right, thank you. Cool, thank you, man. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. We release a new episode every Sunday, so make sure that you subscribe and follow us so that you never miss out. If you'd like some more inspiration while you wait for the next new episode, then check out the recommendation above. Don't forget to follow us on social media and you can send us a question or a dilemma that you'd like us to answer on the podcast. This is Clue Williams, you've been watching Behind the Dreams and we look forward to seeing you at the next Dream Nation event.