 Welcome to the Tuesday, September 3rd meeting of the Mapillier Design Review Committee. I will let members and staff introduce themselves. Liz Bridget, Meredith Crandall, staff. Steven Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Seth Mitchell. Benjamin Cheney. We are an advisory committee to the Development Review Board. We will review the applications on the agenda. As a matter of fact, do I hand pass them on to the Development Review Board? And do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. Second. All in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. And unless anybody has any other comments, we'll move forward to the first application for 12th Hillside Avenue. Tom Taylor and Vicki Koskowski. Do you want to come up to the table and describe your project? I apologize. I do not have a copy of the materials with me. Sorry about that. That's OK. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. So I'm Tom Taylor and I live at 12 Hillside with my wife Victoria Koskowski. Thank you so much. And so we are embarking on the process of repainting our house. And I was here earlier in the spring, actually, to submit an application for a yellow color scheme, which was approved. And then we had kind of a drastic change of heart about it. Before, without even really starting, we kind of had a complete change of heart about what colors we wanted to paint the house. So I'm back, hoping to get our revised blue and cream color scheme approved. We had gone with a yellow and cream the first time. Are these colors representative or should I go down and get the actual paint chips, right? Yeah, I submitted. Should I go get those? That might be good. Yeah, it's not an inconvenience because I would say that reproduction is a little different to my eyes. The blue looks more like an aqua reproduction. I would say, yeah, to me that it's not, the chip is not that a little less bright, I would say. The darker you go on the base color, the easier it is to maintain the cleanliness. Right. Not that it'll be cleaner, but it looks cleaner. The lighter color, if you're near a street, particularly during the summer, the road dust really kills the colors unless you're going to hose them off regularly. Right. Yeah, that was actually one of the factors or something I learned about the original color scheme we went with. I didn't realize it was actually the base color was, at least in Obashan's system, it was one that they actually just purely in terms of where from the sunlight it was one they actually didn't recommend as, or just I guess one that would tend more to change noticeably over time. So yeah, I didn't know that apparently blues are one of the colors that are less apt to change. Yep, that's the actual. So the blue is for the body? That's right. Yeah. So the white is the window door trim? Exactly, yeah. Window door trim and eaves. Oh, I see up there. So yeah, I don't know. I actually haven't looked at the chip in just a little while, so I kind of forgot exactly how close it is to the tree. It's not as far off as some copies. Did you ever get a small sample from them and literally paint it on the house on the sunny side and take a look? Yeah, we did. We tried that with just painted a very small area with a few blues and yeah, there were a couple other ones that we tried that it was amazing. It didn't look that loud from the chip, but even just getting them on several square feet, it was kind of like, whoa. And this one to us at least, even after painting a section of the house. I mean, we did, we kind of ended up, when we changed our minds, we decided we wanted something with a little pop, but you know, definitely not like an electric or something that would look really aqua to. So yeah, hopefully. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, sorry about that. Also, do you have any areas of the house that have any particular issues with peeling or flaking? There is, at this side, although you know, it's definitely starting to get a bit, you can see from the, sorry, we don't have a photo. The side of the house that's, so I'm getting my cardinal directions a little mixed up. This is kind of the south side of the house, and this side of the house, which gets very little light actually has the worst. I think it's the side, you know, we're right up kind of right up against the slope there. And this side gets very little sunlight and I think it just stays really damp or something. And that's, this is the only side where we have a couple sections with sort of bad, where the peeling is kind of a significant, not huge sections, but... The other areas that frequently you'll find it will be a chipper peel or outside of kitchens and bathrooms because of the moisture inside trying to get out during the winter when it's cold and dry. Oh, interesting. And the reason, the other reason I ask is a way to minimize that, and there's some special primers that you can put in those areas. Oh, nice. And all the shots are, sure, and when you saw the paint stores carry them, all the shots has one, one that's called Matt, it's actually a funny name called Mad Dog. Oh, I've seen them, yeah. It's a sexual primer and it's really, it'll make your paint job last a long time if you do that in the trouble areas. Nice. Thank you. Actually, because I had a former coworker who specifically recommended Mad Dog, but he just said it's fantastic. But he didn't specifically say why it's, yeah, it's in those like problem areas. Any places you have weather issues, whether it's on your soffits and fascia board, you know, where the water comes off the roof or on the shady sites of the house, it's really worth using. Yeah. Yeah, I had balked a little bit. I saw that it was, you know, like significantly more expensive than the regular Benchman more primer, but for those, I would, for those areas, like, I would definitely go for it if it would, yeah. Because you, I mean, you can see just in terms of the challenge of staging certain parts of our house, like, I really, we don't want to have to do it. You want to make it last. Yeah. So the fascia, soffit, rake boards, underside of the soffit, that's all the yellow. Yeah. And then when it comes to the window sashes, are you doing the sashes yellow or just keeping those white? Sorry, the sash refers specifically to the body of the window itself, right? Yeah, I think we were just those, yeah, sorry, this doesn't show up very well. We have the pretty much all, like, newer Marvin windows that have, they're like that kind of, it's kind of a gray brown, like darker gray brown color of the window. It's bronze. Yes, thank you. Yeah, that's, so yeah, we, I don't know, we liked. It's hard to see the industry. Yeah, sorry. We, you know, we like that. So we were just going to leave the sashes. Are they like aluminum, or are they a metal? Yeah, it's, yeah, the insides are paintable, but the outside is definitely like a, it's a planting. Yeah, a metal or a fiberglass planting, one or the other. Yeah. So how about the door? Oh, yes. How does that all shake out? But yeah, those, you're right. I'm sorry, we hadn't actually, I think for the, like this back, I think we were just going to do this. But yeah, that was actually one thing that the kitchen door, sorry, when we changed our minds, we hadn't, we hadn't really thought about, I mean, I know often the door is a third color. So yeah, I'm sorry, we actually haven't picked a third color for the door. You could either do a darker version of your body color. So in contrast with the trim color, because all the trim around the windows and doors, all the casings would probably be your trim color. Right. Sun. So you could use either a dark color in that same shade, or you could do a dark bronze to match your existing windows. Oh yeah, that could be nice. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, because we actually, we really do like the color of the cladding on the windows. But yeah, also the idea of a blue that's, you mean one that's different enough that you kind of, there's contrast. But it shows the contrast, but in the same color family. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I'm sorry, is that right, if I write on this? Yeah, that's yours. Thank you. You can add notes about the mad dog and everything else in there. Somebody has the name. Santa Clara. We just said you have the option that if you can get options on the criteria sheet. And an option, your option is to paint the doors a darker version of the proposed body color, which is the Santa Clara. Or a dark bronze color compatible with the color of the carpet. And the sashes, any other suggestions or options? Any questions, comments, suggestions regarding the proposed colors? It is in there to lead the doors. Okay. Morning, son. There he is. What's up with this one? Oh, yes. Sorry, I should have mentioned. Yeah, so that, that came up last time. And we're definitely, so we're planning to replace that clab, like feather in the clabbers there. But that was when that window was replaced. Like, they ended up just, I don't know why. There was something, something was done under there, I guess. And that was just how, like, I don't know why the clabbers didn't get replaced there. Looks like it might come up. So you have the sheeting, so it wasn't the door. Yeah. Oh, thank you. What? Thank you. I forgot. Okay. So we've been in the house for about seven years. There used to be a deck. Sorry. There was a deck over the, going out from, that was a door. Thank you. I totally, not before, before we lived there. It was when the door became a window. Yeah. It's a, you know, it's on the register, but it's non-contributing. Yeah. It's been, been messed with, I think, a little too much. I don't know. Yeah, we love it, but it's, it's pretty funky. I just made a comment in the section that that frame section will be filled in. Yes. Thank you. I'm sorry. I meant to, yeah, I think that was a, came up last time and I, that's definitely our plan, because, you know, aesthetically, we don't love that. Okay. So, I'm going through the criteria. Number one, preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district, or involves an historic structure, acceptable. Harmony of exterior design, whether the properties of the district, the paint job is acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, not proposed in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, colors, games, or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, no change in utilities. Do you have any lights? Is that a light above the triple door? Yes, that is a functioning light. And is there one beside the single door on the left? We don't have a light there. Should we? Is that? What we can do is... Yeah. What? We would need to have the specifications and all that stuff back in the office. Could we give them an option to put either an overhead light matching the other one, or a side light, a wall matted side light? Yeah, we would just need to have the cut sheets for it. Okay. Yeah, no, you can do that, because it's a single family home, so never mind. So we should, sorry you're saying because that's a requirement? No, it's an option. It's an option. It's just something that they can improve here, so that you don't have to come, because it's something on the outside, you don't have to come back to the designer view to them about light, as long as you do it with lifespan and apartment. Thank you, that's great. And it makes sense if you're going to have to be painting and dealing with the clabbered, adding new clabbered and other pieces anyway. Right. You may as well cut the whole of that light in, if you want a light over that. That's the kitchen door, right? This is actually a weird little, like separate side room that's, at one time, maybe it was part of the kitchen, but like now it's kind of its own weird little mud room. But it makes sense to have a light in the kitchen door. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so thank you. So you're saying you're able to kind of improve that as part of it. Yeah. Just a, normally what you would do is you could either put something overhead, or you could put like a little side light here. A little sconce. A little either a sconce or like a little, you know, a black color or something that, you know, looks nice beside the door. And usually you could put it, if the novel of the door is here and the door opens that way, you could put the light here because then the light switch would be, as you open the light switch would be immediately on your right. Right. Nice. Yeah. You could also use, they make them now nice side lanterns with a motion effector. So you basically leave it on so when you come home at night and you walk towards the door, the light automatically comes on. Nice. And the wiring, like doing it on top or on the side is kind of the same deal. I mean, Well, if you do the light on this side, on the outside, the switch is on the inside somewhere down in here. And depending on if you have basement underneath, it's easy to bring a wire up inside the bay to your switch and then up inside the bay to your outside light. Right. Yeah. I'll just say optional. This side. Another advantage of the house, you can find some easily that's compatible with that. The one that's already with the age of the house. Oh, right. Right. And lastly, recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including gateway views of the city and state house probably not applicable at this location. With the options and the fill in of the clack words, all in favor of the application, which you just signed this one. This copy on the lower left above my name. Thank you. You have a pen. Okay. Thank you. Thanks very much to all of you. Good luck with your project. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Sorry. That's okay. And yeah, thank you for all the good ideas as well. Okay. For the next application for 60 Main Street. Welcome back. Thank you. Just a reminder to make sure that whoever's talking has the microphone at the best you can. Sure. Now that we have enough people, I will have to accuse myself from a vote as I am participating in creating the sign. I just want to say that. Okay. What's that? What else? We've been discussing having me get all the letters cut and how I've been screwed to the bill. It feels like that should be publicly said before. Okay. And introduce yourself. Oh, yeah. We're very... And introduce yourselves again. Hi. I'm Talia Stoneroff. I'm an architect here in town and an architect for Ravel Rouser. I'm Jacqueline Reakey. And I'm one of the co-owners of the business, Ravel Rouser. Thank you all. I'm Bill Kaplan and I'm the landlord. And describe your new application. So we're happy to be back. Thank you all. The sign has been re-envisioned to really capture what Ravel Rouser and Nutty Stuffs want the building to say about their space. So it's really about making it... It's about clarity, about making it as clear as possible for the people walking down the street to know exactly what's going on inside. It's a really multifunctional space, so it was important to them to make that as clear as possible so everyone would understand what was everything that was happening. And there's so many things that are exciting inside. So we are proposing to do individual letters, simple aluminum individual letters that have a bit of a standoff. So you get a shadow behind them. There's quite a bit of contrast with the back. So it's easy to read. Each letter is two feet high. And we did precedent research within the town to make sure that that was within what was normal for the letters. We found that many letters in town you have those numbers. 31 was what we were seeing in several applications. So it's actually quite a bit smaller even though it has a boldness to it than many of the signs that are existing in town. And then on the side that you can see this came up at the last meeting that you all brought up and recommended and we really liked the idea. So we moved forward with that of recognizing that in fact that alley is street frontage. And so that should also be able to have that signage. So we have just the simple logo on that side. And then the idea of street signs in a way going down on the left there saying florist chocolate spirits and espresso again just highlighting what's happening in that space. Talk just a little bit about how this is laid out how people get to the floor as the chocolate spirits and express all one big space. Yeah it is all one big space. And we would love you to come visit any time it's open please come in. You come in the main space and to your right are couches and a bar to sit at and work in the windows. There's a lot of activity and excitement in the window. We're trying to just enliven that whole street you know that part of it which was empty for so long. Straight in front of you is a beautiful display case of all of the chocolate confections and please jump in anytime if I'm not right. And then there's a beautiful bar made of local white oak and then also a local stone as another part of it where you can sit and have coffee or you can have a drink or you can have a melted chocolate drink or baguettes. So that's another area and then the other part of the street frontage this storefront here that has a beautiful florist in it and she is a separate business but it's all sort of being run as under one register one register. And then in the back there's another area for standing and having drinks and their sitting area and I think that covers it. Then we have a wall that is the only thing that bisects the space at the back and behind that is where all the chocolate making is happening. So there's a whole factory happening back there which is really exciting. And then of course the bathrooms at the back right one that's ADA. Hi Paul and I wasn't at the last meeting but I couldn't come but I know there's some large signs in town but this strikes me as being really oversized and we lost the sign van isn't defined as all the black paint so there's a distinctive sign van on the building and I think some kind of a border would help. It is the sign van is the existing sign van that was there and we just painted it to have something be more cohesive with the whole building and it does stand off so there's a difference in elevation there so you see a shadow and material. So this you're right this really I think the print it washes it out a bit and you don't see it but you do see a very distinct sign van that you can see if you just look across the street too. I apologize if that's not as clear in the drawing. This font looks a little different I mean it's a little it's not as crisp I like this I'm just curious is this the one you're using the little lettering it's a little sort of fuzzy around the edges you see what I'm saying whereas this is sharper. Yeah we sharpened it for the size. So you go this is the one. A little bit of that will be dependent of course on what you're cutting the material cutting so having it but it's a classic old typewriter font. I'm interested in the relationship between rabble Roseter and the rest of the businesses here just for you know talking about the sign I don't care what the businesses are but sort of clarity as I look at this kind of confused about what it is. I think that I think that one of the things that happen with this space is that it's a very large space for this town and one of the things that we worked at in trying to understand how to best use the space is kind of how to do a lot in the space that would actually last and so when you go in the space it's very simple design it's very wide open and simple and so it is important to have these the list of what's happening in there and the cohesion is you know you have gifts you have chocolate you have flowers you have you know drinks and things and it's one kind of community gathering space where you can both socialize you can pick up a gift you can have your morning coffee the idea is that you create places where it's simple not confusing relaxing and can stay for a while. In terms of the size we did do a calculation to make sure that it we did do a calculation to make sure that it was within what was allowable per the code the zoning code and it is allowable would be 48 feet and three inches and we are at 39 feet four so that was certainly taken into account and I appreciate that comment. Many other shops in town use their sign ban to describe what's inside as opposed to the business name. Are there any? Oh yeah, yeah. Are there others? Do they? I thought you said many do and I agreed with you. I said no. I said are there any other businesses in town that the sign ban describes what's inside as opposed to putting their business name on the sign. The sign banned not just in the windows. I understand, yeah. So when you look at Walgreens, half the sign is dedicated to pharmacy. When you look at Obashon, a large portion says paint. Hardware. Hardware, you know. So I do I think that's pretty common. But you know whether the name integrates their use or it also shows ancillary uses in that sign ban. We did walk around and look at a lot of that. And many sign bans actually aren't even used. I think that the expense of kind of using a sign ban, you know, many have just put decals. I was surprised actually when I looked. There are a lot of there are a lot of just blank sign bans with kind of decals in the windows. So this is kind of taking it back to using the sign ban as a side ban. Are you going to be promoting in his browser? Well it does have in this window here. It's kind of. Yeah, promotion otherwise. I'm thinking about people coming down the street and recognizing that okay I found what I'm looking for. Right. Because I mean the signs in downtown you can't drive in downtown outside. It's too dangerous. So there are mostly street levels in the observation. And I think that the letter is just being so big. And it's such a big sign ban. It's not a small one. But I just wonder if somebody walking down the street on either side of the street is going to be able to figure out they have arrived at wherever they are. I think the street experience you will see rabble browser at eye level. I think the drive-by experience you will be able to see what's going on in the building. And the other thing to be noted is that each one of these letters is smaller than any of the letters that were in the one more time sign. Those were 31 and 28 inch letters. They were too large and not approved by everybody who was here. I don't know the history. I'm just going by facts. There was a lot of that was a mistake. The idea for the sign ban is you don't have to fill it. The idea is to put lettering on there that's a classy look in. It's contrast and it's readable from the furthest distance which is across the street on the opposite street. It's opposite sidewalk. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I go ahead. Just to your point about you said classy. We've been really focused on quality. So all along the way there are obviously cheaper things that one could do. There are much cheaper materials that you could use but throughout this entire process both Bill and Jacqueline have been really committed to using both local artisans and fabricators and local materials. There's no question of quality. It's just a sign. Right. I'm sorry to bring this up. Because normally for administrative permits for sign permits Audra usually does a calculation on this. The front sign on the sign ban the total width is 39 feet four inches. Yes. Okay. So yeah. So you did I hate to make you come back. I almost think this is bigger than you're allowed anyway. You did your 80% facade calculation. But there's a whole separate square footage calculation that's in the figure three dash 16. I almost think you have too many square feet because if you're talking this is I can tell you what the square feet are but what well I mean it would take a minute anyway. Great. I mean I think you came out at four the second week. We don't have the square footage marked on here but I could figure that out for you. Well I'm figuring it out right now. I'm just double checking that you're actually complying with this figure three dash 16. You don't have those numbers in here. Because that's a separate calculation from the 80%. Right. You're looking at each florist is a separate sign chocolate. The ones. Yeah. Well. Without the definition of the sign. The sign band of any really looking at the square footage. I mean are you trying to understand what's happening here. Is it that you don't like how it looks. Is that is that what's happening. Well there's there's criteria for the signs. I understand that. So I mean I think more of the ones you're talking about is the harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district. Yes. Compatibility. Right. Compatibility of proposed. Well that would be the exterior materials. Right. Yeah. I think those are the big ones. Have you seen the city escape. Books. Sure. I think. I think what we're trying to do is to fully understand the project and why you're doing what you're doing. It's. I've got it. I mean it looks huge to me. I wasn't here for the meeting. I'm painting in black but not a big fan of that. So and that's not entering into what was today. That's a done deal. I'm just looking at readability walking the streets of Montpelier. Trying to figure out what the business is. You mean what the like what the name of the business is. What the name is what you can get there. And that's what we're on the stage. Yeah. I think that's exactly what. What's trying to be this is what you can get in here. Because it's. It's got a lot of different uses even though Bravo Rouser is everything except the florist. That's all within the scope of what. How high are the letters. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24.24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 24. 25. 25. 27. 27. 27. 27. 28. 29. 30. 27. 28. 20. 29. 30. 30. 250. 37. 38. 39. 40. 70. 28. if you look to the previous application. It just, that, you know, I think. Didn't convey your message. Yeah, Rappel Rözer really felt like they wanted to, and I'm not speaking for you, but, you know, really wanted to say, this is what is happening in the air. You can get chocolate, you can buy flowers, you can, you know, have beautiful drinks with friends, and you can have incredible coffee and croissants and baguettes and all those things. So it's just, you know, it's out that clarity. Yeah, I guess to me it seems big, too. I like the font, just to me it seems awfully bold, but, you know, that's the message you're trying to convey. Just make no mistake about what you can get here. Yeah. Can I just ask a question? Sure. So you have, there is just the one door entryway, right? It's clear that there's only one door. So I kind of see how if you had two different names up in the top, it might get confusing because people might start looking for things in the forest. How do you get two doors? Right. Yeah. And when you walk in, there's a Rappel Rözer sign and then there's a really cool florist sign. So it's clear that both those things are, you know, okay. Well, there's several businesses in town that have a front doorway and you can go in and it's either split or open for one business on the left, one on the right. Obviously for a smaller storefront, a lot of spaces had to be divided. I almost liked the direction of that. The previous proposal had with the regal on the left and the Rappel Rözer on the right and then on the windows putting what each one, like on the floor side, you could do whatever the description was here, flower design, gifts. And here on your glass you could do chocolate spirits, espresso, you know, whatever else that you had going on there. The sign bands designed to describe a business that's inside. It's not these groups, it's not supposed to be a dictionary of everything that you're doing inside. And to me, it's overkill. I look at it in terms of compatibility and in terms of the criteria. I look at it in terms of compatibility with other properties in the district. Curtis, do we have a definition of sign band? Well, why don't you just pull that up for Google Maps? Anybody wanted to look at it? Sign band. I think one thing that's hard for us is it's one. One long sign band, but they're like two separate little storefronts and it's just different than what we're used to in our mindset, I think. So we do have a definition of sign band. It just means the flat horizontal area on a building facade usually located immediately above the storefront and below the second-story window so where signs may be attached. It doesn't say what kind of sign and it just says sign. It doesn't say like store names or anything like that. I think there's another reason it's not just about what's inside that, and please correct me if I'm mis-speaking, that they're choosing to have the name of the business be supported. It's that there's a humbleness about this business. This business is about the community down to every single way they run every piece of it. So it's co-op owned and there's just this, it's not about saying putting rabble rouser first, it's more about saying here's this community space, here's what you can do here, come join us. And here's the name of our businesses, which is also important. But I think that's, is that my rate? Is that part of it? But it's really about the community saying, please come in. But just because you put forged chocolate spirits in espresso doesn't, I don't read that into that. I think that, I don't know how to express this, but you're obviously having community space, but I don't know how you could tell that from any rabble rousers in the name of the community. I think that, I think rabble rouser's a great name. And I would think that you'd have pride in that name, you'd want that the largest, because sooner or later people are gonna identify, not as the coffee shop or the chocolate shop, where do you have a chocolate shop? You're gonna identify you as rabble rouser, because I look at rabble rouser and I think of you. That's sticky. And I would wear that with pride. That's really sweet. No further explanation necessary. I stored them at the calendar. You do a great job, you have a great business and I just, I would love to see rabble rouser like you had proposed before. Like super big. How do you guys like the alley side? I like your, oh my God, I like that it's really, it's really, very nice. Thank you. See I think people walking down the street are kinda like, I mean if I'm walking down the street and I level description inside the glass, which you can put anywhere you want, change it any time you want, describe if you add something, you can put another sign inside the glass so that people walking by can see that. I mean storefronts said they do clothing, they put their mannequins, they put their samples out in the glass. So if you're not looking at what a description is inside, you see what's actually inside in the storefront. That's your window display. And if you had chocolate, spirits, espresso on the glasses you're walking by, I noticed that more than it would driving by and seeing that up on the sign bank. I know you obviously have a different opinion. I think the alley's okay. Yeah, that's fine. I think it's subtle, it's readable. And again, your design is to be readable for people walking by. Nobody's gonna, you may notice lettering on the side but you're not going to necessarily read that as you're driving down the street. Do you intend to leave the lights where they are? That was the intention, to use the existing lights. We did want to put one, just a safety light over on that alley side. We'll need a speck sheet on that end. A speck sheet on that end. That'll have to be added. Yes, absolutely. It is noted, but we didn't have a speck sheet yet. I'm kind of happy we do that. The light on the side would be over the rattle of the insertion sign. That would make sense. What do you think? I don't think it's worth trying to go towards the street because there's a street light there that lights that up pretty well. I'm just wondering, too, if people see this and think, well, is it a store where you can buy chocolate spirits in Espresso? But you also can sit in there and relax and there's this Espresso bar and there's, you know, it's not just a retail store. Yeah, yeah, which is not really obvious here. You're going to serve music, maybe sweets and baguettes and stuff. I think that a window sign or somewhere by the door so people know that they can come in and sit down and eat because otherwise you walk by there and on the glass you could have it, you know, in the area, on the glass in the area where the bar is, you could have Espresso bar. Cheesecake. Oh, yeah. I mean, whatever your specialties are, you could put on the glass and, again, as you change that, you can change that. Well, I've been seeing, since the precedent, maybe pop-ups of different types of food being served as well, something along your slides or another almost a cafe restaurant option in there, too. Is that wrong? I've just been different articles. We're working with Cool Runnans, Jamaican food folks. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other aspect. It would be totally different. Right? Right? So how do you describe, how do you describe what they do when you're signed in? In a place there. Again, inside the glass, you can change that. As things come and go, as you change, as your business moves, as you are in there and people make suggestions of what they really like, if you tweet the business to suit the clientele, you can make all those changes inside the glass any time you want. You can make lettering, put it up there. I'm gonna just say this once, maybe like that. I don't mind this. I think it's a little bit oversized. I don't mind this. I think there's nothing that prevents you from doing it. That it's, you do whatever you want. I mean, it's the defined use of that purpose. I hear what you're saying, certainly. And if I were to do it, I would certainly go that direction as well, but this is what you like. My own comment would be to not make it as large. And then they have to come back because they need to change their signed ban. They have to come back. Right? Could it be that two feet or less was approved as long as it's this way? Oh, no, I just meant, like, if you were trying to change, if suddenly you're like, oh, I gotta change my words. I see, I'm sorry. All right. You gotta come back, okay? I think you're ready to do that. I'll tell you, as someone who's looked at a lot of downtowns in my career and was very hesitant to invest in Montpelier, I think that when I found a group that was as committed and as bold and forward-thinking as this group, I trust their judgment. I trust their business sense. And they are definitely doing things differently. There's no question about it. And I have chosen many times to just sit back and trust their judgment because they're doing something new. And if we apply old, we stay empty. If we try something new, we hopefully go forward with a really vibrant place. So I'd ask that you approve this. I think it's good for the town. I think it's good for everybody here. I think it's an exciting space, I do. And I think also to focus just on the sign, to do all the things of communicating what's happening in there is too much to ask of a sign. I think that you go by, you see the space, they've focused on the outside walk, experience with plants, seating, other things like that. The glass is clean and paired and fixed up and the lighting inside makes it so that it's warm. It's all cool up. I mean, warm tones. All the lights have been changed over so that it's a really warm inviting place when you walk by. You don't even need to know what they're doing to feel like you want to go in. So that, to me, is really great. It's really supporting the quality of the space. No, no, I'm just, I'm talking about the sign, but I think to ask the sign to do it. The criteria that we're supposed to judge an application by. And again, we're advisory. I mean, whether we approve it or not, you can still go forward to either in administrating it or, yeah, I understand. But I mean, I understand the conversation that's happened here, it's different. And so that's all. And I think that even if you do this, along with Seth, I agree that if the lettering was smaller and they were separate, it would be equally as readable, maybe more readable, because everything's not just sort of filled the entire space. You don't have to fill the entire sign with letters. Lettering, space, lettering, space, lettering. Gives it a different feeling than just filling it the whole space with lettering. And there's some signs in town that are lettering is too large, and not all of them got approved by us. Again, we're advisory. So it passes along to either an administrative approval or another toward the development review board. I haven't happened to walk by in the last few weeks, so can you see that they're seating through the windows? Although a lot of our chairs are yet to arrive. It's hard to have everything 100% in place when you open the door. The outdoor seating is here. The outdoor seating is here. Just rained too much yesterday. And the church pews. I will say that I do see some of the argument of both its size and the fact that it's all capital letters feels a little bit like it's shouting at you. You don't like to be shouted at? It's not my favorite, no. And then with having lowercase letters in the sign, rabble rouser and whatnot, so there is sort of, I think that's when I look at it, what is coming through to me? Two kinds of people in my total. One are people that don't look at the signs because they know where they're going. And so they don't look at the signs. Then there's the other people that probably the signs mean more to are than considers from out of town that are around. There's a lot of people that, I'm telling you, believe it or not, there's a population of 20,000 during. We're on the double string of the day and it's a ton of 8,000 and so on and so forth. Then there's a lot of people that are visiting in town see things, so you have to be, I think you have to be very clear and I don't think this achieves, it's not part of our view criteria. I don't think that you can be strolling by there and figuring out everything you can get. I also don't think you need letters big and capitalized to somebody that's across the street or even down to the intersection of state and main walking that way in front of the bookstore. It's not like you're trying to grab somebody on the very montaillier road with a sign. We're going right fast, yep. You want to go ahead with the application as you're proposed. I mean, we can go down through the criteria and we'll probably would ask feedback from the committee on each of the criteria. We can vote on the end to move it forward. Oh, that's up there. If we can request it this way, it would be helpful to see where you stand. Okay. Fortunately, I have to excuse myself and thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Okay, I'll read down through the criteria. Number one, a preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects and the historic district that involves an historic structure. What is the, I'll just ask who finds the post sign applicable or acceptable for 1A? I'm thinking. I'm thinking too. I mean, I really appreciate what you said, Bill. I think it's exciting to people from necessarily in our, for all routines. I'll go for it too. So two yeses. I'll say no. And I'll say no as well. Again, just size, it's more compatible to do it in your original application, but with this one with the size of the letters I'd have to adhere to theirs. So we're. So do we get two yeses now? Many of exterior design with other properties at the district. Same harmony of exterior, I'm sorry, see compatibility of proposed exterior materials. Can I ask a question? Sorry. Yes. In terms of harmony of the design with existing in the area. So I have to assume that that's just based on what it's saying. First, because for instance, down home has a very similar painted signboard and then letters that are offset, different font, what it's saying, but it's a similar idea. And I think that's seen in multiple places of the painted signboard. And then letters, if you're lucky, the letters are nice and offset and metal. Some of them are just cheaper. So is it, I just want to clarify from my own understanding of the design review, is it not compatible because of what it's saying or because of the design? Size. So size. So if it was a little smaller, then that might be more compatible. And how big are the down home letters? I think they're 18 inches. I made those. 18 inches. On a one foot storefront. I think I'm harder than that. But that's a good point, scaling. But I don't know the size of the storefront, but I do feel like the letters were 18 inches. That should all be in the permit file. For me, this is such a big storefront. Many designed originally to have several stores occupying it that have doing it all in a model that just emphasizes the size and the extent of it. And that was the problem with the occupant sale before that sign was just big. I think it would be far better if it was broken up in some ways. Businesses were defined with some different kinds of lettering. I think that would help my reception. It's a very, with the font and the capital, it's a very aggressive, domineering sign. I'm generally in favor of all kinds of innovation and signs and changes and things being done, although definitely. But this is just so overwhelming on that side of the street that it fits. And there are ways to break it up on a designer. And again, we'll go down through the other. One just comment per Talia's question is I'm also doing the sign for one Taylor, which is 24-inch aluminum letters that we approve that say Montpelier. And it's sort of spread out. And it's very similar. Different scale buildings, different location, all those things. Huge building. Yeah, yeah. But it's a different whole different scale. That is, it's 10 letters, so it's like 20-some-odd feet to say Montpelier. This cover is nearly 60 feet. 60, yeah. But the size of the letters you have to do with, I mean, there's very little foot traffic there, some, but mostly vehicular traffic. And you're also dealing with a transit center that has buses that are 60 feet long. So I mean, it's a different scale than walking down the street with a sign. It's just teasing out a lot more. Comparisons and clarity of life has been approved. That's transportation center, people in their cars. I imagine there'll be more pedestrians out there when it all opens up. And it's also something that strangers likely to be looking for. One C was compatibility of proposed exterior materials. I don't think there's any issue with materials. But ability proposed landscaping, that was approved at the last meeting. So that's not applicable in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes, or exterior materials. And again, E, incompatible designs, buildings. I would not. Yes, on that or what you're reading out. I don't know if you can. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes, or exterior materials. Again, my only issue is the design in terms of the size of the letter and crowded into the space heat. Whether it's formidable or not. Again, I'm looking at design. Again, everybody's opinion, that's how I interpret it versus the criteria. So you're good with it, you're fine. You're not, you're not. I'm all right with it. Same. Got another one at seven. Yeah, okay. We've got three more of these and then we still have to do the sign criteria. Location on appearance of all utilities. There's no change in the lighting for these signs, although there is an added. Yeah, you'll have to come back with a spec sheet. Sure. Because we don't have any kind of, we just cut ties from this. Recognition of, recognition of and respect for view quarters that's significant vistas, including gateway views of the city and state house. That's fine. Conformance with city's gate placement and design recommendations. Yes, on that? What is your? Yes, the placement is fine. One observation if you're sitting here looking at it is that this is a design issue and I don't know how to fix it. Somehow with all that sign band, this looks crowded to me. So again, that's a design issue. It's a design issue. So it would be basically the same. Compatibility with second property and adjacent properties. Same. Doesn't cool jewels have a, those letters are pretty big. Oh, don't go with that one. Well, I'm just thinking of. Don't go with that. What I'm just thinking about, you know, it's not. All the committee's got. It's less than that. Don't, don't, don't, don't compare anything to that one. Negative feedback from the entire community on that one. And I wasn't even in the meeting that approved it. That was years before I took the position. Even I know, don't bring that one up. But it was just about neighbors. About neighbors, right? That was just about neighbors. Yeah, yeah, no, not that it's what we're going for. Yeah, I'm not sure you want to be compatible with a sign that got so much negative feedback. Number four, shall not obscure significant architectural details. It does not illumination, not applicable for internally lead plastic signs prohibited, not applicable. Bannets and banner, pennants and banners, not applicable. Individual letters of fix painted or engraved directly on the building or structure are encouraged. And that's acceptable. All in favor of the application. I'm sorry, go ahead. Could we pose a straw boat on 18 and Chai? If that's acceptable. Yeah, so a straw boat on if it was 18 inches high instead of 24 inches high and appropriately spaced out, would that then obtain approval? Is that the question? Right, I'm just proposing. Straw boat. I would lean towards that more than the 24. I would too. So do you want to request an option of that instead or a four? I don't think we have the ability to do anything now that Jacqueline's left. I mean, if it's an option that could be taken or not taken, right, as in not definitive, but if it was an option. Well, because then you can come back and then we can sign off on it potentially. Do you like to table extra, just come back? No, I think we need to do this and get through this meeting and then do it because I know that the, it's a team that we're dealing with is not just Jacqueline and I think that people, I think morale and everything of that team operating without a sign and hearing that we went to another meeting without getting something resolved. I just, I think that she was very clear when she left that she wants to propose this and see what comes out of the meeting. But I clearly heard that 18 is more preferable. We'll talk to her about that. It helps me as the person who would be telling Andra whether or not to sign off on a permit. If they all are saying, yes, 18 inches we can do, that gives me something to you to go back and you can then talk to everybody and say, hey, would everybody be happy with 18 inches or do we still really want the 24? That gives me something to work with on deciding how to go forward. You don't, if they don't want 18 inches, they don't have to have 18 inches based on that. We can wait to issue the permit until you go back and talk to everybody else. So it's just a note that would say committee will approve. Yeah, committee, committee. Is there anything for us to do here? Are you okay with them taking a vote on, we would accept this at 18 inches, we don't, you know, it's a 2-2 tie vote on 24 inches. As far as signage to the, on the glass sign, the inside, that's completely up to you. So they can, you know, whatever, I don't know how much you've got up, but you can do that without, and that I think where the most important part of your signing is anyway, but that's... You can always have a couple of different votes on here. So you can vote for it as is, and then you can do a vote for it at 18 inches. Or do we table it? Rather than table it, we can have two votes. Rather than table it, they don't want to table it. Yeah, so you could do either one. So, so based on, based on the proposal, would the 24 inch letters in the sign ban all in favor? All in favor of the whole proposal. Of the as proposed, with this size. With the 24 inch in the sign ban. So what's the, is there another... We're gonna do two votes. Two votes. We're gonna do two votes. So what's the... But the only one that's real for this group right now, because we have no, the only one that's real that was asked to be voted by the applicant was the 24. If you guys want to do a 18, you can do that, you can do a 10. Wait, wait, Bill, my point is, this is not binding on anything until it gets to me. This is them giving me an option. And if they give me an option that's acceptable to them, you guys can take that option, come back to me, amend your permit, and we don't have to bring you back here. I see, I see. I'm trying to make this as easy as possible. I see. I see, I see. I'm trying to make it so you don't have to come back. So it isn't that I see. So if they, if 24 got approved and they wanted to do 18, they would have to come back and get approval for 18. Not if we do two votes. No, no, I know. If we didn't do the vote. Well, but here's the other thing. If you get a denied at 24 inches and they don't approve 18, even if you shrink it down, you still got to come back. Right, right. I understand. So I'm trying, I'm trying to make it so you don't have to come back here. I've never been here and I feel a little bit, you know, trying to represent someone who's not here. Yes, I understand that. I, my preference for process would be to table that and have you guys look at an 18 inch design and do a graphic on it and take it to council on the other comments that have been made. If that's what you want to do. That seems like the, the best way to get to something we can all agree on. Yeah. I just, they said they don't have the essential table. But as far as, as far as speeding it up for the applicant, I think we could probably, you know, based on feedback to two votes on a 24 inch letters in the sign ban and 18s. So we vote for one of the others, that's what you're saying? No, you can vote, you can vote, you can vote, so you can approve the both. Okay, I get it. So the first vote will be for this application as proposed with the 24 inch letters in the sign ban. All in favor. Raise your hand. The 24 inch. As proposed. As proposed. The 24 inch. As proposed. If you're okay with that. Yeah. Okay, so. I'm asking for a vote. Raise your hand if you're okay with the 24 inch letters. But if I would prefer the 18. You can, you can. You can vote for both. Yes, for both. It's not one or the other. Okay, we'll all vote for this one then. 24. Are you okay with the 24? No, no, so the vote for the 24 inch, I'll just put it here, the 24 inch sign ban letters. And remember, this is advisory. This is not the permit. Oh yeah, I get it now. Okay, just you. Thank you for that. I'm just, I usually go with the VR success, but it doesn't always happen. And based on 18 inch. Can we say 18 or less in case they want to do lower case? Sure. There. 18 inch or less. It gives you options. Sign ban letters. So you could do 18 cap smaller, similar to the rabble rouser, or you could do caps. All in favor of 18 inch or less, sign ban letters, raise your hand. No? No. Okay. It's not without seeing it. I'm not sure that's gonna, it's gonna reduce the sort of the face some, but it's not. Did we approve the? Oh yes. That would be a good tip. Yeah, and did we approve the, was anything? I have nothing to do with that, so I might. Yes, good. What about the Champagne Alley? The Alley is approved in both cases. The only difference being, the only difference being the size of the letters in the sign ban. And if these become smaller, would that be okay on this? Oh look. This. If they become smaller than they are? Yeah. On the end? Yeah, that list on the end. That doesn't seem to be, I mean that's. That's not a design issue. That's a. I mean that's fine, the way it is based again, based on the scale of the year. No I understand, just how about this at 18 or smaller, so I just want to. Yeah. It's really a smart place to put a sign there on the end. Yeah. And those aren't that large, I mean how large are those letters? It's in here. It's 12 inches. I think they're six inches high, and they vary, they're about average three feet, but they vary based on the height of the letters. Letters are six inches. Six inches. They're small. Yeah, that's fine. And again, that's very readable. And again, they're readable as much for contrast as they are for size. I think those would be readable for cars one by. Because they don't aren't for very fast. Thank you for explaining all that. I'll go inside and have a minute inside. Oh yes, yeah. Dude, we have to try the croissant, dip it in chocolate. It's so good. We should have brought croissant and chocolate. Should have put yourself up on your windows. People know they're in there, you can eat. So again, the sign ban letters that 24 inch above was two yes, two no, the 18 inch, three yes, one no. And then I signed down here, and the applicant, one of you needs to sign up here. Over my name. Well, I mean ultimately, one of you can sign, or Jacqueline can sign tomorrow. Well, I'm the, I was the official applicant, so I think it's good. You can do that pen there. Okay. Next meeting. Thank you all for the thoughtful. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for all your good work. Feel free to come down tomorrow. There's still a man for coming up. If anything's confusing, or if Jacqueline needs to come in and look great. Wonderful. Thank you. No, we wish your business all the success in the world. Definitely. I do tear. And your building. Yeah. I know what a challenge it is. Yeah. So we've got about six minutes. Okay. We have the minutes from, we're approved. Second. Second. All in favor of the minutes from August 19. Raise your hand. Minutes are approved. Next meeting, 916. Do I hear a motion to adjourn? So moved. Second. Second. All in favor of adjourn. Raise your hand. Meeting is adjourned.