 Good evening, everyone. My name is Ryan Klopp and I'm Arlington's conservation administrator the January 18th 2024 meeting of the Arlington Conservation Commission will be conducted in a remote format consistent with chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 to extend the remote participation of public meetings until the 31st of March 2025 Please note that this meeting is being recorded. I will put a link to all the meeting materials into the chat right now all right Dr. Roni our conservation Commission chair shall facilitate tonight's meeting Please note that there will be a comment period for each hearing and each vote during taken during this meeting will be conducted via Roll call vote and we will begin with the roll call of the tenants Sure. I guess I'll lead that um Mike guild this game present Susan Chapnick present David White present David Kaplan here Brian McBride Hearing nothing Brian may join us later. I know Nathaniel Steven said that he joined us later So did Brian say he wasn't going to be here for what? That he had a family Yeah, he said he's going to miss tonight's meeting. Okay. Okay Brian McBride will be out for this meeting and Nathaniel will join us later and we have associate member Eileen Coleman present and Sarah Frank Afro I'm present I got it now Sarah Al Faro Franco. They got it. Thank you Thank you. Okay, so we have a roll call at this point Leave the next step is to Review the agenda So I'd like to do that because we have a couple continuations and I don't want people hanging around If they don't have to just to find out that some of these items have been continued to our next meeting So we're going to start off with our minutes review. It's administrative and then Just note that the correspondence is of where the correspondence is available that the commission received over the last two weeks then we'll have a discussion item on 34 Dudley Street for an X scroll agreement and then an update on Mount Kilboa an update on the water bodies working group will have a vote on the warrant article and a The spy pond proposed change after then parks and rec and An update from the parks and rec and I think that no one went to the last meeting. So this will just be about talking Finding out who's going to join the next meeting on the 23rd and then the artificial turf update And I was going to ask Sarah If she had an update from the tree committee, but we'll get to that later on when we come to that point in the agenda then the hearings were as a quest for determination for 35 Beverly and 35 Beverly is going to be continued. So if anyone's here for that I want you to know that and then a request for determination for 43 Beverly and Our two notices of intent 88 Coolidge Road and Thorn Dyke place will both be continued until February 1st And with that we'll start in on the first item, which is the review of the meeting minutes And you have those available to post so we can look over the any corrections and edits Yeah, let me know if you can see that. Yeah Perfect, so it looks like his first corrections from Susan. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was on mute I want I wanted to just scroll back up and correct Sarah's name. Yeah, the spelling was was incorrect It Commissioner, it's s a r a without an H. Oh, and then a l f a r o. Yeah, you got it Thank you. We don't want to misspell people's names Accidental Yeah, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Sorry about that. Go ahead Chuck. Oh Sure, so moving right along So it's a little small on the screen, but I'm trying to try to read it and Some more from Susan. I think Nathaniel looked this over also. So there might be some edits from Nathaniel Yes, there should be a few comments from Nathaniel, but majority were So don't don't keep scrolling down go back up a little bit because Nathaniel and I both agreed that we need to list the items That were in the letter and I didn't have the letter. I don't think Nathaniel did it either It should be in David Morgan's I have a copy of that letter so I okay great So you could just put bullet points in yep, what was in the letter because we said that should go in the Updated enforcement order so it would be good to list them That was our recommendation. Thank you. And again, just stop me if you Yeah, someone sees something just call out otherwise So the only reason I added some information in here is I just think it's important To have a record of what Park and Rec said they were envisioning in this space just in case that changes over time Clean is misspelled again. Oh, yep. It's Ian. Yeah Ian good Common error I Think spell check always tries to change it David Yeah, looks good to me Okay So I get a motion to approve the minutes I Move to approve the minutes as mended and second Go ahead David David White second Step to the roll call so Mike Gildes game. Yes Susan Chapnick. Yes, Dave Kaplan Yes Who'd I miss here? Oh, yeah, David White. Thank you and Chuck Turoni says yes, I think I got everyone so Minutes are approved And we only we only had one set of minutes and the next is just the correspondence. So Commission did we receive any correspondence? between the last two meetings Yes, and that is through the novice agenda and then there have been a couple of items that were received since the agenda was posted and those are on the Google Drive and I can talk with a Jennifer to get those posted as well One significant one and I'm not sure Chuck if this is where you want to put this on the agenda is for the emergency certification for Was it 46 to 48 Lake Hill? With the trees do we want to put that here or we want to put that somewhere else? Yeah, I'll bring that into discussion, but it would be the next thing anyway, so So the Lake Hill property sure So we received several comments about a thornbite placed as well So all the correspondence that we receive between these two meetings are available on the on the Google Drive and there's a link on the agenda and you can find the agenda on the town website on the calendar page and also by reaching out to Ryan clap so Chuck could I just make a comment sure look the Google Drive is not available to the public so All the communications will be on the novice agenda on the website that Chuck was telling you had to get to Thank you. Thank you, sis All right, so moving on to discussions Let's put Let's do this one first since we're going to do the hearings first or the discussions first sorry So on the agenda the number two a is the discussions So I was just going to go with the agenda. Do you have the Lakeville view pictures available? And can you give a summary of what? Cool happened with that so we got a call from a tree company reached out through the town website to Susan and myself and Ryan and from that point Ryan, why don't you take it? Yes, so um, this is for 46 to 48 Lake Hill Avenue So they were looking for removal of two trees So one is this large tree that you can see on the left here. It has four stems coming out from the trunk All of which are rotted and pretty poor health and then there is also That's another image that you can see of it And that's just showing the proximity to adjacent cars the street in the house And there is also a dead pine out there. I keep scrolling on that is also within striking distance of structures and the road So they have requested that these trees be removed. I did stop by earlier today and they have started Pruning the pruning the branches on the large tree that had the four stems coming from it and they have removed the pine tree They're also looking to remove some dead branches and invasive vines But that is all under Below the 20 percent canopy removal So we did issue a Let me grab that a emergency certification to this project I will share that right now And so that does permit the Project to go forward immediately. So I set a site date start date of 117 2024, which was yesterday and then assuming the commission is you know agreeable, I I tend to Let them go the fall 30 days For that so that is the end date of 216 2024 So the work to do work to be allowed is the removal of the sassafrest tree with the damaged co-dominant stems And removal of the damaged pine trees Special conditions that were imposed initially Permitted the stumping and grinding of removed trees But the removal of the root ball was prohibited Within 48 hours of completion of the work. They are to contact the conservation commission The schedule site visit and determine if any erosion controls are necessary And to confirm compliance with the certification And then they are to ensure that wood chips are stored outside of the 100 foot buffer zone to the resource So that was issued yesterday And so it does need ratification from the conservation commission And then if there's any sort of amendments or additional conditions that the commission is looking to impose on this emergency certification Yeah, thank you, Ryan. Can I make a suggestion? Yes Can you can you scroll back to the special condition? I mean I get that the intent is to have erosion controls in the site inspected before The start of the work. Maybe you should say should we should we say commencement instead of completion? uh, so the idea here was The ground is pretty frozen right now um And so putting erosion controls in at the current moment won't necessarily You know really benefit the uh the site uh, there shouldn't be too much erosion coming from that But once the snow starts to melt that's when you might expect to see Additional erosion and so kind of to see what kind of exposed and bare soil is left after the removal of these trees Sure. Got it. That makes sense. Thank you, Ryan Yeah, so uh, David for northeast, uh, it's like north northern boston tree service Yes, not does not use cranes. So they climb the tree and they just drop pieces And they don't even grind stumps. So the stump's going to be close Cut close to the ground. So it was determined that no erosion would be needed for this job But we did want to be prudent and check On when we're called that the job is finished and then have that ability to ask for erosion if needed So that's that's how um, we handled the erosion on this and you know, it's Also, it's pretty far away from the resource area on existing lawn So there's a lot of roughage between where this is happening and you know, the edge of spot blunt Um And for all those reasons, that's why we made that determination. Are there any question other questions about 46 48 lake hill Seeing none. Can I get a motion to ratify the uh, emergency assert for 48 uh, 46 and 48 lake hill So moved A second Oh second. Oh my god, Mike killed this game. I'm too late at the game here Roll call uh, susan chapnick. Yes, david white. Yes Say david kaplan Yes Mike gildes game Yes, and check taroni says yes okay next on the agenda is Dudley street escrow so it's an amendment to extend That's right. Let me just check again Yep, Dudley street an amendment to extend the escrow agreement um, it was drafted by nathaniel stevens and susan chapnick And um Chuck, did you want me to just give a very short summary of this or I absolutely did and I didn't forget about you But I was going to give the lead in so sure That's all uh, so it's an amendment to extend the escrow agreement It was drafted by uh, nathaniel stevens and susan chapnick and susan chapnick vice chair of the arlington conservation commission will um go over this For the commission and take any questions after she's finished susan Thank you. Chuck. Okay. Um, those of you who have been on the commission a while might remember That 34 deadly has actually two orders of conditions There was one order of condition with a prior owner And then a new order of condition and the first order of conditions not all the work was done One part of the work that wasn't done was putting in storm water management And that was then supposed to be done by the second owner Under the second order of conditions, but the conservation commission was concerned. What if it never happened? So we requested money be put in escrow in order to Perform the storm water management if the applicant of the the new owner the second order of conditions didn't do it So it was kind of a insurance for us um, however When we when we put in this um escrow agreement it had a um It expires this year and during this time We had extended the order of conditions of the permit for the current owner So now we have a disconnect between our escrow agreement Expiration and the current order of conditions expiration So I think yes, so I think um ryan just put up This very simple extension of the escrow agreement that nathaniel and I prepared where we're staying where whereas the storm water management system hasn't yet been um Installed as I said and the escrow agreement is set to expire This march, but the current order of conditions expires august 17th 2025 We're proposing to extend the escrow agreement to the same period as the order of conditions So it's as kind of as simple as that um, but if there are any questions I or somebody doesn't understand what I just explained be happy to answer them Thank you, susan. Um So ryan, could you take that down? I had a couple questions, but I uh saw them Uh earlier. I wanted to know if ryan reached out to the escrow agreement the applicant Received the order of conditions and if they are agreeable to this extension I think you're a mute ryan. I did leave a voicemail, but I haven't heard back yet Okay, um my second question is Did town council review the escrow agreement? and I sent that to uh Claire for her to send to a town council. I never got a response back unfortunately, so Council has not reviewed this escrow agreement or escrow escrow extension Okay, so susan Knowing that What's your recommendation? So my recommendation just so that we don't have to revisit this again Would be to ask if the commission would vote to approve this pending Um any comments from the town council or any edits from the town council Um when I prepared this with nithaniel and as everyone knows nithaniel is an environmental attorney He um didn't think it was a big deal if town council didn't look at it But because the escrow agreement is With the town he he wanted to cover all bases and have him just glance at it. Um So if it would be agreeable to you chuck, I would like to take a vote to approve it pending pending the town councils review sure and What do you say about? the Applicants, uh, so the applicant actually requested this in an email. Okay to david morgan So that may be information. Maybe we didn't get to ryan Since they asked for it in an email. I I don't see why they would be opposed to it Great, and I feel like we've just Wrapped this up and it's it's all set. So can I get a motion to Uh approve this escrow agreement pending town councils review I'll make a motion. Whoops Who got that one? Uh a motion to approve the escrow extension I'll second Uh and david kaplan. All right So what this means um chuck is that before you take a vote since this discussion period I just want to explain if this is um You might give a period of a week or I don't know how long you want to give town council to comment Um, and then if there's no comment We already have the vote That commissioners will have to sign it and I don't know how you want to Facilitate that but that's something we if people come into town hall or But it's a physical document that needs to be signed So sure so I don't think I would limit town councils review And we could we can talk about how to sign it after the after the vote But I I think that uh it will be at town hall And we can either do that or we can start at a signature chain But hold off on answering that all right, and we have uh We have a vote and we have a second and I'm going to go through the roll call might kill this game Yes Susan chapnick. Yes, david white. Yes david kaplan Yes, and chuck taroni says yes Okay, so that's approved and we'll wait for town council to review that which I don't think is a Too much of an ask so that can that can happen um What's the preference of the commission? Do you want um me to pick it up and drop it off at susan's house who brings it down the line or Does everyone want to go into town hall? The last person would have to bring it back to town hall Town hall is fine. We'll be Okay, let's go with town hall Okay, that document will be available at town hall and town hall closes tomorrow at 12 o'clock So But you don't have to get there. We wouldn't be signing it yet because council hasn't Reviewed it. Well, we can still sign it. We can sign it. They'll review it. Go anywhere. Yeah I wouldn't have the um applicant. So the applicants also have to sign it We could all sign it then hold it in the office wait for review and then send it to the applicant Maybe that's the best way to do it. That sounds great. Okay. I'll be there tomorrow because that tomorrow works for me Right and if if anybody is having problem getting to town hall during its open hour So it's the town hall annex where the conservation commission offices Um, just email or text me separately and I I'm very flexible. So I could probably bring it to one of your houses Okay, the work schedule. Thank you moving on so Our next thing on the agenda is um the monkey bow of feasibility study update And I don't know if anything Uh Yeah, so here it is right here. This is the survey. So I want to let you know that the um, they uploaded the survey on january 9th and um I was someone reached out to me from the ahcd and they wanted I think they reached out to several people but but I was fortunate enough to answer and they wanted someone From the committee the mount gilboa committee to talk at their next meeting, which is on january 25th So I reached out to david white because he's very active in this neighborhood And david had a conflict that night. So nathaniel stevens has stepped in and um, I'm not sure if he sent the email Reply letting everyone know that he will be there to discuss this if they can accommodate his Before nine o'clock request Um So david i'm gonna throw this to you because like I said, this is something that's in your neighborhood. Do you have anything to add david white um, look at the survey Sure comments in She results month or so then we'll see more More actual also see what then you'll learn from the meeting too. So they were learning process here Is a survey so I asked ryan to put the survey On his signature line and his emails to to get it out there I'm not sure if that's happened yet, but I know that it's probably went out in all the town's social media um Ryan have you heard if it's uh active? Do you know how many people have taken the survey at this moment? Well, if we look right at the top there it says there's 117 responses. That's pretty good Yeah, pretty decent traction so far. Yeah, that's great 117 we got to get the word out. It's only going to be open till the end of this month that was supposed to Just be one month. Yeah, that's what it says survey will close on january 31st Yeah, I've told the neighbors about it Mm-hmm I think we should tell everyone about it because that's a uh, that's uh, You know an area of town that everyone everyone gets to It's also been on the on the town emails, which is great Um, if they finally put it on so that's good All right, moving right along Number c or c letter c and this agenda is water bodies working group We're not going to get an update. We have two votes to discuss The first one is for a warrant article Funding the water bodies working group and again. I'm going to turn to david white Uh to let us know about this warrant article This is the basic standard place soda article because approved for the warrant and the um Finance committee Figures out what the number is going to be makes it voted on by the town So this just since she gets in place for the next stage of things So right so we're hoping that the town will um Town meeting will approve the money for the management plan for this water bodies fund and um I think it's a problem, but anyway Yeah, we can get by the friend comms. You want to give a brief update on uh The talk about the cost of the management contract and you're just working with all the all the um I guess like with brad bobber and To try to figure out how to bring that contract down. Do you want to just give a little bit of that problem? is that the contract proposal for spy pond Is much more than it has been in the past We've put together some ideas that we're going to pass on to the consultant Just try to bring that cost down to a reasonable level Because it's as is now it's over our it's over our budget for the coming years We have to cut things somewhere I'm going to see what we can do to them We spring the spy pond piece down I think Reservoir is probably the same as last year And the also I think hills pond is somewhere as well, but it's a the spy pond Contract that's the issue at the moment Um, Dave Kaplan's also on the water bodies working group. Uh, Dave. Do you have anything to add to? Dave and white's uh report No, I mean, we've just been sort of picking apart the tasks and in the proposal and just looking for opportunities to either um, you know Trying to figure out how they got to the number for the task and and Develop some questions that we can have a conversation with the With swca Just to try to right size those numbers a little bit but You know also looking at, you know, each task and how it supports The broader goals that we've set over the year to see if there's any opportunities to Um, I guess, you know cut cut something here and there Yeah, nothing's nothing, uh, is getting any cheaper these days. So you have a You get a it's gonna be hard to to find those things, but you know, I appreciate the effort and Something this is expected, but this is much more than we anticipated We beyond All right Okay, so we're not going to get into the nitty-gritty of what you're looking into But we'll get a report when that's that's finalized and we'll have to vote on the management plan so, um And so david presented and uh warrant article And we saw that on the screen and I'd like to get a vote to approve that language So we can get it ready for um town meeting and move to approve it Or a second given somebody a chance. All right. I'll second him Thanks, Dave. Yeah David Kaplan Yes Mike guilders game Yes Susan Chapnick. Yes David white. Yes And Chuck Turoni says yes Okay, so that's first of two things and the second thing is our Second thing is a spypond determination so Susan again, I'm going to set this up a little bit They have a spypond determination and so This is the process in arlington We have an existing order of conditions But the applicant which is the town this time has decided that there's needs to be a change in order to do this process We need to determine Whether this change is um Warrants a notice of intent of whether the change is sufficiently minor that it can be an amended We can amend the order of conditions, which is existing so That's the overview and susan who knows a lot about this Uh, a particular item on this order of conditions Volunteered to talk the commission through it and help us out and take on any questions. So susan, I'll throw that to you Thanks, Chuck. So, um through The process with swca getting a management plan for the next year And discussions with the water bodies working group We realize there may be additional invasives that we need to control That we hadn't considered In our order of conditions that exist now One of them is frag mites and there may be some others So these additional invasives may require um alternative Uh herbicide control So we only approved two chemicals to be used on the for aquatic management of spy pond One of them, um, is for the curly leaf mainly for the curly leaf Ponweed and some others. This is called daiquat And the other one is for harmful algal blooms if they do pop up We usually see at least one a year and that's a copper based alga side Um, there are other herbicides. Um, we've discussed them in the past in this commission Some we refuse to To consider and there have been new ones on the market and they they all have pros and cons We're not going to consider them right now. What i'm just asking is Would you consider an amendment to this order of conditions? to, um discuss and potentially add Additional herbicides as appropriate for aquatic management And I personally think it would be an amendment because if you um look down if you could scroll a little Um, ryan to the section that there it is. I think it's 20 21 So number we only have one special condition that Talks about the herbicides the two I just talked about Um, and I think and the rest of this is talking about other types of management and what we're doing It's by pond. So I I think it's appropriate to amend the ooc to cons for Rather than doing a new Um notice of intent for additional herbicides. So that's that's my summary Sure. And so just before we take, uh Have a discussion or take a vote just in section 17 of our regulations When we it gives us some it lays out some structure to help us decide whether this is a minor amendment Or if it needs to go through a notice of intent. So Uh, first one is that the purpose of the project has not changed Scope of the project Has not increased a third one would be the project will still meet the relevant standards in the regulations for would be resource areas are still protected and The last one is the potential for adverse impacts To the resource area values will not be increased from the approved project So that's I'm sorry, you know what? I don't know if I was looking at the right order of conditions because I'm looking at 21 and it does have um a It does have an herbicide for frag mites And I didn't think it was in there on my version of What's the date of this? Ryan Looks like it's 3 15 23 Okay, so I still want to consider an amendment because we may consider an alternative herbicide But I am encouraged to see go back to 21 that We did add the um frag mites herbicide in here and I didn't think it wasn't in on my draft version So I didn't have the final version So you see it says Manual direct application cut and dab of a masamax is allowed for treatment of frag mites and my version didn't have that So I thought we needed an amendment asap to treat frag mites and we really don't But I still think we should consider If this is an appropriate route because there are some other um Some other aquatic invasives that are being discussed by swca that have been cropping up that we may need an alternative um herbicide so I'm not So we don't How do we determine To going through those five items on the list if we don't know what the next things that swca is going to uh Going to ask for Yeah, they ask they ask for a potential use of priscilla core Which is not approved in here So that's one they they added um So is that part of your request tonight priscilla core Well, I wasn't requesting a specific herbicide Because what we weren't talking about that. We're not going through the pros and cons. We're just asking if The addition or change of an herbicide would be considered an amendment Or a new NOI Yeah, I guess if the delivery method is the same I Think that would matter so The delivery methods wouldn't change So priscilla core or mox Moxacore Well, priscilla core is more like a diquat. It's it's it's an aquatic one A mass box is is like a new version of glyphosate. It's not glyphosate, but it does the same thing So that's a cut in dab Um for frag mites Sure, so we could ask for um We could ask for a determination that uh adding additional Herbicides to the list that have the same application method that it currently exists in the order of conditions is a Is sufficiently minor In nature and can be considered for an amended order of conditions So if I think that's a great way of wording it. Yeah, sure. So if someone wants to So maybe I can get a motion on that And you can just say so moved Thanks, David. Can I get a second? I second All right, uh, any discussion seeing none Mike Gildes game Yes David Kaplan Yes Susan Chapnick. Yes, David white. Yes Chuck Taroney says yes, then you'll see it too. I think Oh Sure, Nathaniel, would you like to vote on this or would you like to abstain? I'd like to stay and I came in only at the tail end of the discussion. Thanks Chuck. Sorry Great, uh Ryan, did you get that vote down? Yes, David white Susan Chapnick. Sure Okay, so, um, so now he's here Mm-hmm Okay, so, uh Definitely past 7 30. So I'd like to hold off on any more discussions We stopped at the park and rec and we're going to move on to our hearings Our first hearing is our request for determination of applicability for 35 Beverly road But as I understand it the newspaper ad did not go in Um to the to the paper and time So, uh, the only thing I'm looking for with this is to continue it to our next meeting Which is uh, February 1st So could I get a vote to continue? Uh, 35 Beverly road to February 1st So moved In a second Second It's going down the list might kill this game. Yes, Susan Chapnick. Yes, David white Yes, sir. Thank you. Uh, David Kaplan Yes Nathaniel Stevens. Yes And chuck taroni says yes All right Moving on we have a request for determination of applicability for 43 Beverly road If I have this whole thing sure I only have half No, no, I don't No, I don't here we go So 43 Beverly road the public hearing will consider the an application for a seasonal floating dock at 43 Beverly road along the bank and land underwater or the mystic lake And that's what I have so, um I know that uh Someone's here. Do who do we have here to uh talk about 43 Beverly road Ryan? Uh, John Barros here Hi, john, uh, you can I don't know if you're sharing the screen, but you can turn your video on and talk and uh, I'd like you to Tell the commission about this project and Um, just the first by introducing yourself to the commission for the record Also, I'm here. I'm the owner Hi, everyone. Yeah, um, yeah So both both just uh introduce yourself for the record whoever goes for us is fine Uh, my name is John Barros. I'm from Salem Village Consulting with me tonight is uh, miren She'll just jik He is the property owner And why don't I just run through a little bit of background? of the the site in in the In the structure, um, so the uh She'll sold sold j6 um recently bought the perp property back in 2022 It's located at 43 Beverly road and it has shoreline on the lower mystic lake um when the Homeowner's bought the property. Um, there was an existing um seasonal floating dock on the property It was understood that that dock had been in existence for some 30 years and the prior owner Had received a state waterways License for the dock um One of the conditions of that license was that when the uh Property transferred that the new uh owner would have to purchase. I'm sorry not purchase But receive a new license within a year So we went through the the process started the process with the state waterways division to to receive a general um license for the dock You know after its review period, you know, you probably actually received correspondence that we applied for that back last spring um after some time the state waterways division put the application on hold asking us to receive permission uh or Truth that it was approved by um conservation commission. We had kind of understood since the license had been around for some 30 years that uh, they had done that originally. Um, turns out we we couldn't find any Existing water conditions or requested to turn negative determinations So, uh, we reached out to david morgan, uh, david explained that that was something that the commission had Granted him the ability to do an administrative approval So we went through that process with david Uh, we received the you know correspondence and the documentation for an administrative approval We took that information and sent it into the state And after some time they're to be honest, they're not really quick to To respond, um, they finally came back and said well, that that doesn't suffice. We either need a negative determination or the order of conditions um with the you know official form work, uh for the Wetlands Protection Act so um That's pretty much where we're at. Um, you know, so we we filed for the negative determination, uh with with the uh commission um And as you can see the you know, the dock is a you know 40 by 20 foot aluminum dock it's only anchored By a couple of hinges, uh on a at a masonry wall along the shoreline It's a seasonal dock. It's taken out typically, um, you know in the late fall Back in the spring The previous owner, uh secured it to the shoreline, uh during the off season I apparently it The commission did a little site walk and um, it hasn't been removed. Um as of yet Myron is doing a lot of traveling overseas and I think it's probably one of the things on this list to do um And but anyway, that's that's where we are at and um, I think ryan also requested a little, uh Operations and maintenance, um A plan and I think uh, I put that together yesterday and sent it off to him. I believe that's to be on record Sure, uh, susan I'm not sure if you want to take it from here Sure, um Thank you. Um, thank you john. That was that was a good overview. Um, ryan clap and I did a site Walk of this, um Property um, the owner obviously was was overseas. So we didn't get to have a discussion But ryan, could you put up your pictures and then um, Maybe your site notes Um, maybe the picture is probably a more illustrative and we can just talk about the site notes So it's a very steep slope um all the um the backyards on beverly that face lower mystic lake, um have really steep backyards um and um So there's steps walking down to the water the banks. Um In so this is one area looking. Whoops Yeah, so Going a little too fast for me to explain Um, yeah, okay. Um, so this is this is um, the edge of the property is kind of uh, little past where that tree is Um, and you can see a canoe on the right That's and you could see the the bank. That's the bank to mystic lake. Okay next picture Maybe is the dot. Okay. So this is a patio area That looks like it's been existing if they say the dock's been there for 30 years this patio area's likely been there for 30 years Um, it it is not permitted. Um, but the dock was in I don't think came before the commission Um either. Um, it it is older. Um, there's more growing through it Um And you can see that there's some stone work On the edge of the bank there and then do you have a picture of the dock there's the dock? Okay, so the dock right now is just tethered um To the side Of the bank with ropes so it was not removed Um, my understanding um, and chuck you tell me if i'm wrong because you're the one who figured this out That if you get a general permit for a dock Uh, it's considered that it's taken out in the winter time Um seasonal means, you know, take it out in the winter you put it back in You know In late spring early summer Um, there are no dates on that, but it's not supposed to stay in the water And can you show a few more pictures ryan? Whoops that one's There we go. Um Whoop, okay, that's just showing what the bank looks like there near where The dock goes out from So you can see it there tethered to the side That's the canoe again So there's a canoe this is a tree that looks like it was cut Again, it's been that way a long time. It does look like it was diseased It's nice that there's a a snag there. That's about eight foot An eight foot snag And this is a small, um, probably a storage unit We didn't get to ask the owner because he wasn't there. Um, that's within the 25 foot Footprint of of the bank I think that's it. Is that right? Okay, and um ryan wrote up a short Memo on our site visit notes just explaining what I just said to you for the record And we did ask for an operation and maintenance plan as ryan said Um to ask, um, you know, when is the dock coming in? What is it coming out? Is there any maintenance that needs to be done? How is that done? So Are there questions from commissioners? If I could just add one thing, um, so there was um, you know, we did some research because We thought that the dock had been permitted through the commission and and there was um A order conditions for Mola on the shoreline, um, I Was kind of vague on what it what it was but there was one that was received by the previous owner Like the date was Uh, April 18th 96 Um, okay. I'm sorry if I didn't find that it says lands landscaping Um and construction of path to the water. So, um, so there had been some permitting there by this owner Thank you. That's probably in a physical file somewhere. It's not in our electronic files. Yeah, it was 96. So it was okay Yeah, I see Nathaniel. Stephen has his hand up. Thanks. Yeah, just I see the operation maintenance plan I didn't is it in the google drive? I'm because I was looking on the I'm getting the documents through the posted agenda for the public. So I'm not Yes, we've just gotten that yesterday I don't think it was posted the Just gave it to us. Yeah. All right. Um, can then can someone go through it because it's just saying inspect Uh maintenance and I'm not sure about inspect for what I mean, I guess what's the what's the purpose of This and maybe it says it down below but what if I if I could jump in there So part of the the waterways permit is is that you're you're supposed to keep it in and you know, good working condition So inspection would be that basically it's it's holding together an insoluble condition. I guess, you know, if it's starting to Be in disrepair then it should be repaired But other than that it's aluminum. So it's not that it's refinished or anything like that. It's uh, you know, it's pretty straightforward kind of proof fabricated dock, so Okay, I get maybe my suggestion would be then to add for the maintenance requirements add something to that end of the sentence to say Sort of explain what john just said the homeowner, you know, she'll inspect And it you know to ensure the dock is In good condition and no pieces are falling off or just something. Yeah, I think the second page has that on it if you look down Yeah, the dock maintenance requirements, okay Yeah, good. Thanks. Yeah Thank you And then susan, I don't think it's respectfully. I don't think it's really our jurisdiction as to whether they're complying with the general license chapter 91 license, but if we want I guess if we issue They're seeking negative determination a condition could be to have it entirely out of the water for You know the winter period or six months out of the year or some some time period So that would be the way to address that Thank you. Yeah, my concern was um shading and things like that because it is right on the bank and we do have aquatic vegetation that grows in the spring and Um Yeah, right. So yeah, that was my concern. Thank you. Nathaniel Chuck Sure. Yeah, john that second page Uh Comes comes through and in fanny. I was gonna ask since it said that I think it said november 15th that it would be out of the water And then may something first Maybe I get those reversed, but um, oh there it is right there. Yeah, november 15th and uh Each year and then when we put back in no earlier than may 1st Would would that be sufficient instead of having that condition? or To restating this That time that it seems to be out of the water I think it would be best to have it within the paperwork Okay, especially since it's such a simple requirement. I think there's room on the form to include that if I remember There sure is um, I had another question, uh, and so so, uh Math waterways, um Is issuing the dark permit, but the conservation commission is issuing a uh request for determination of applicability and the running time for this type of permit is usually three years and I just want Everyone to understand that if we don't in my opinion if we don't extend that or make a comment that it's in perpetuity, then we should look at it again. I feel uh I don't feel very comfortable about approving this in perpetuity Except that one thing that I know is true is that if the owner changes that dock in any way They have to get a new permit. So this process would happen all over again um With that being said I think that uh, one of my questions to john would be Are those planks on top also aluminum? I couldn't make that out Yeah, but the decking. Yeah, the decking the decking is aluminum. I look like Oh on the on the dock itself. Yeah, there was a picture of that. Yeah Okay, so that's it's all decking so And when it comes out of the water is I understand there's a steep bank there. Are you putting it on that? Bluestone runway that's next to the Mystic is that where where it's going or is it not actually getting out of the water? lately well, I know Marin is new to the the property. So I'll let him speak but I know it is A very heavy dock so they would have to be pulled up probably mechanically onto the slope Above the slope And is the is that how do you area in the flood plain? I would say probably yes. Yeah So the uh, so this general permit but it floats so it's it's not like it would be filling flood plain Right, but I right I unless it's anchored. I'm just worried about it You know getting pulled away with the flood waters, but I Right. Yeah, I mean, obviously that's probably chained or something that would keep it You know, and that's part of the reason why it's taken out every year is is you know, to be honest, it's um His ice flows and what have you at certain times that yank it out and break the connections and cause You know, just repair to it. So that's that's the reason to Disconnect it previous owner told me is that So basically during the summer, it's connected with his hinges to the wall And she told me that in during the winter. She just connected it and tied it with a rope to the coast so it can Kind of float freely The dock itself is pretty heavy. So pulling it out would be quite labor and as john said would probably need To have some kind of mechanical tool to accomplish that uh, so, um Yeah, I'm not sure that tool then need to be built into the patio or something like that because it cannot be you know, like I It would take quite a few people to pull it to pull it out. It's it is. Yeah, very heavy How deep is it at that location? It's about Yeah, it's about a foot or so maybe a little bit more than a foot something like that And how about at the end of the dock on average? The depth at the end of the dock is pretty you mean when it's when it's vertically It's pretty deep. Yeah, I can just about stand there. Okay So, um, I just will make a comment that a neighbor of yours has also requested a an rda for a dock That they have not yet installed and in in their search for this The company that's going to install the dock will also put it in and pull it out every year for them so that Because obviously they're getting an aluminum one as well and it will be too big for them to do on their own So i'm just giving you that information Okay All right, so just give me a few minutes, uh, please Everybody wants to jump in but I had a few questions. Um So i'm concerned for a couple of things this general permit requires the dock to come out during the season Um, it doesn't state a date, but but we know that it needs to come out That doesn't mean you can't get a chapter 91 permit That doesn't that allows the the dock to stay in place. It's just that this one Requires it to come out um, I did make a call, uh about this because it did seem to be something that the commission Sometimes uh, at least when I was on the when I'm on the commission I'm not sure where we're supposed to be with these dock permits So I understand that we're looking at this dock through The lens of the wetlands protection act on our own by law and so some of my concerns are If you left it in the water, we would have some scouring going on You might have some shading going on. We might have some erosion that happens each year and those those things would consent concern me so Impacts to land underwater and bank and ice scouring are Things that I'm concerned about and Again, I didn't think they were going to be an issue because in your the right on the first page it says seasonal floating dock So I'm assuming this thing comes out. I just didn't know When or how that process happened or what but it sounds like it's not coming out It sounds like it's only going to be tied to the shoreline So if that's the case, I don't think you have the right permit Well, actually that it's the same permit with the water response at w w 24 So it's whether it stays in or comes out. So if there was an actual physical dock as well as a Float that came at the end you'd still be going under the same permit Can you date the section that that's in w w 24? It's the it's the form Chuck. It's the it's the general license certification form brp. The form is brp ww 24 that you apply for the license and I can't say the chapter 91 licenses There are different types of permission you get under chapter 91 and this general license Certification is a newer creature But like getting a 30-year license One of the prerequisites is to get your permission under the wetlands protection act Prior to DEP completing the license or signing off and it seemed like that's as john explained. That's what happened to them as DEP said you need to get concom sign off either an order of conditions or negative determination Yeah, but when I called DEP and we talked about this exact permit They told me that was supposed to come out of the water Oh, this is where I'm confused and they said there's different permits for For different things, but john said that it it's it's on the permit But I guess It's I think we should as you said we're looking at through the wetlands protection act lens So even if we you know, we could say keep it out of the water longer than they're required to license Or keep it under shore, but they still have to Right, I think we should I think that particular license covers both, you know, that's I think the way that to look at it So but because it was the it was a removable float We you know, we put in checked off that it was seasonal and that was prp w 24. Is that I mean, I must have it here You 24, yeah I'm looking for John you don't have the registry citation for the General license for middle sex county. Do you I'm trying to find it online? Not I'm done. I I think that if we I feel more comfortable with conditions on this application And if we're willing to ask for it to come out of the water You know That would be that's where I'm at Mike Yeah, I just wonder if uh Talks concerns wouldn't be addressed in the o and m requirements by instead of saying The uh, it'll be unhinged And rehinged to say removed Uh, in other words, it says currently it shall be disconnected from its hinged connection And uh, could it be said to be unhinged and removed from the lake? Would that cover it? Or does it have to be the actual language of the permit itself? I think it should be both, but I think that's a good point that you raise it should be there and then it should be a condition of The determination in my opinion Sir, I just have a brief question. Are there some like 10 or 15 other dogs at that exact lake? Which are neither unhinged or removed from the lake during the winter? You're saying they went for a different approval process No, they might not be within the town of arlington and We can only hear when the town of arlington. Yeah, and we can only deal with what's in front of us So That's unfortunate. There's just some other decks out the docks out there that uh, are not, um I guess, uh, you know following the rules that were set out when the when they came to the conservation commission if they did and When they got their license uh from DEP I also had um A question about the three-year period chuck and your interpretation that this would have to come back My understanding of the rda is it's a three-year period to do the work. So let's say this doc wasn't there You know, so It's we're doing an rda. It might be a negative determination. They could build the dock They have these conditions. So to me, I look at it like okay, if somebody asked us an rda for fence Um, it's a three-year rda if we have a negative determination and we have a Special condition that says the fence has to be four feet the four inches above the ground So turtles can go under whatever But they don't have to come back every three years that fence still exists So I guess I don't understand the three-year concern That you have Yeah, I I I hear your point. Um that it seems like the three years would be during the construction, but um You could just simply solve that by saying that this will run concurrently with the chapter 91 permit or I I was saying before in perpetuity, but you could say that and if they ever had their reapply The state would send it back to the conservation commission, right, right So, you know that That makes sense. I think that's that's not a problem. Um Talking that through Yeah, I believe these general licenses So what happened is so DEP issued these general licenses, they record them in the registry and then people apply to actually to sort Uh, join on to them. So depending so those licenses that are recorded there should be one for middle sex county And I think those are 15 years Maybe it's a 15 year period. So DEP at some point is going to have to renew that license And then I think it'll be interesting. I think then everyone will have to reapply To the new license. I'm not sure but it has a shorter license Shorter term than a traditional chapter 91 license Yeah, that's a leg Chuck's concern Yeah, it's my understanding as well that um, you know, it's there is a gonna have to be a reapplication at some point down the road The present one was a 30 year. Um That that was considered an interim general license Okay, so I guess where are we in terms of having the dock removed? Like I'm leaning towards that being your condition I think it's just goes to the ownership of having a dock. I mean there are It sounds like the neighbor next door has located someone who can come and you know, install it and take it out Um, yeah, I mean it's it's in the onm. So I mean, I think I assume that that means that that's what they're proposing to do I mean, I'm hearing trepidation about how difficult it is or you know conversations about that, but I mean, it's it's in the onm So, right? You can certainly get You know for people in standing in a foot or two of water to lift it out if needed It always says about being unhinged Uh Disconnected from its hinge can actually doesn't say anything about removal Yeah, yes, we need to amend that language if that's what we want to do That's a good point Mike Storage storage for the dock shall be along the shore of the property. So Um, I I guess, you know, the thought was is that was just going to be slightly pulled up and secured So it wasn't that it was going to be taken off property, you know No, just up on the bank up on the patio Yeah, john what I my recollection from my conversation and I was Um, You know fever should be writing things down, but it seems like a couple of points have come up during this discussion that I think that there's a difference between inland permits and Yeah, non-title So this is this is non because my my original questions to to go ahead and talk to Chrissy hops was to um Ask her about this term seasonal because I couldn't find it in the regulations and so it you know, I was Mystified by where do I find a definition for seasonal? And so I reached out and we had a conversation. So I I do think that this permit Um, and I know that we reviewed the two that are coming in front of the Arlington Conservation Commission I asked her about seasonal and and that was one of the requirements that it needs to come out of the water So this might be something you want to check on well, so I have um, I don't know if I have it Share with you, but they have a flow chart that you go down through as far as under what type of permit you apply for So you reach a point where um, you know, it talks about the size of the dock and then if it's Where it's located in relation to the property line So if it's less it's more than 25 feet Um, you know, if it's four by it's under so many square feet And it's so many feet from a property line They they throw you into um Into one cat, you know In the flow chart you go towards the ww 24 And then as you go down it asks, you know, if the structure is limited to 300 square feet And you say yes, and then it's it is the structure a season will remove and you say yes And it throws you back into the ww 24. So it's a flow chart of a bunch of different Categories that end up into the same Same license That makes sense Just just you know what what the process was that we went through it up to apply for it all right, um Susan Yes I I I'm I agree with mike that I think this language in the for the seasonal storage needs to be clarified because it can that second sentence or third sentence could be read to say Because it says it will be secured. Oh, I'm sorry the fourth sentence. Sorry, it's small writing Storage of the dock will be along the shore of the subject property And I guess that's Looks like it where it is now the photo that ryan and susan took I mean that's along the shore of the property. I guess you could also interpret that is Out of the water on the along the shore of the property, right? So I think it needs to be clearly stated if the commission Wants it to be out of the water to say it shall be removed out of the water You know and can be stored along along the shore of the property, you know on the shore of the property I guess not along the shore but on the shore along the shore line But out of the water if that's what we want Yeah, if it could get up onto that Bluestone like runner that that's there that would be That would be best. I mean, I guess it's in flood plain, but it's armored And it would be pretty hard to get it anywhere else Yeah, I I mean, I'd like to leave that open for the the homeowner so that they didn't have to hire somebody and You know have to float it downstream someplace and have it removed. You know, I think that's would be a better option I agree. I'm fine. And as you said, it's probably in the homeowner's interest as well to tie it down For the if the water does got look like it's going to flood Or if they're before they travel again In case the flood waters do go up all their way. Yeah Yeah, I think myron had spoken to the like he mentioned that he had spoken to the previous homeowner and The past 30 years that's that's pretty much the way they handled it. They just tied it off to the shoreline And so he assumed that that would be sufficient All right, so hopefully we're not talking about two different things because commission saying it's coming out And that's the commission wants and that's that's what we'll have to put into the conditions Okay, so should we should we take a um Temperature of the commissioners To see if that's what we want to do with these types of docs I I feel it should come out, but I haven't heard from everybody I don't think it's from everybody and John you were talking quickly explaining sort of the flow chart in the process that you went through and you It sounded like you said that You know, you clicked the button that said it was seasonal means that it comes out on a seasonal basis Correct. So is that the implication of the Of the license to well, that's you know, that's just the the way they put you through the form work um So I don't necessarily it's it ends you back at the same point Uh in the same license, but so I don't know if it actually gets word into the license line Which I think it's just they they just try to figure out they they try to pigeonhole certain types of docs and situations Some docs are bigger And they still qualify for the ww2 some are small Uh in close It has I think it has more to do words located in relation to the property lines, believe it or not So, you know, if it's a the bigger dock and it's close to the property line You know, it goes under a certain category, but it's a smaller dock and it's you know, further away from the property line gets you know Back into it. It's one of the categories, man. Okay. All right. Thank you. But I guess my temperature I guess regardless of fit being more labor to do so. I think it Serves the resource better having taken it out, you know seasonally and Placing it on that armored portion and out of the water On the shoreline and it does staying in tethered to the you know Still in the water, but just tethered to the shoreline It's also tethered to a tree It's a very big tree So it hasn't been harmed by it yet I think I was better for the resource area All right, Mike. Did you um What's your opinion of whether the dock should come out or not for the week in Syria? I think if you if there is concern about impact to the piece of the lake that's under the dock Because they're shading or whatever which I think it's a minimal problem Because I don't think this you know in that winter period. I don't think shading is a big issue for critters or for plants Uh because nothing much is growing During the winter. So I would not be too concerned about that Unless there's some specific issues that someone can bring up Yeah, so according to alicia gaolin, uh, some of the things you need to look at and she's our circuit writer here in the northeast um, she says one of the a couple of things that you want to look into is ice scouring and impacts to land underwater and bank and she also Once you know went through the process trying to educate myself on this application and reached out to those two sources So her recommendation was Not to have it in the water, but I also feel like that's where dp is also that they're saying it's seasonal Um, you know christy said that it doesn't tell you a date, but it does call it seasonal So it should come out of the water um I think that's where we're at. I would see this going You know two ways You're going to get a determination from the commission that tells you that it needs to come out of the water For the same dates or different dates that's in there. Usually december 1st through sometime For the first thought or you can continue Sorry, susan, but if I could just explain this or you could continue do some more research come back for the something the commission can uh can you know Understand about the seasonality of this dock and we could proceed from that point Are you asking the applicant? Yes, I am john. That's a I don't want to speak from marin, but you know The intent was that it was seen in a seasonal dock that it was going to be you know taken off of its anchors every So it does fall under that that category and that's you know You know how it went through the You know the waterways permit process So I assume that that's the way you want to go whether it's removed from You know It's anchors and removed seasonally And I will say um to the owner to marin You know, we we do come across in the town of arlington unpermitted projects including docks Um, and it happens and we can't be everywhere all at once. We're volunteers all of us so we When something comes in front of us we try to do the right thing for the resource area and consistent with the regulations at that time And we try to be consistent, but we can't catch Everything if somebody has in an unpermitted dock and never went through this. So I'm sorry about that if you feel that this is unfair I will say that we do have another dock permit coming up which we've said and we we will go through the same exact process and the same exact discussion Okay, thanks for explaining that I did a quick search on uh google why they were talking about it seems that this particular dock is maybe up to 600 pounds And there will be impact on the On the patio and on the ground when I take it outright Well, that's interesting. So should we consider the impact of a 600 pound dock on the bank? Now I didn't think about that before chuck, but that is a concern. I didn't realize it was that heavy Yeah, I'm I'm back to the same spot. So from what I've heard from christie that um, it has it's There is a permit that will allow the dock to stay in the water But it's a different permit. This is not the permit I would suggest just going back doing your research again reaching out to d. E. P and and coming back to the commission because If it can stay in the water, then then that's great. Everyone's happy But the seasonal dock from what I heard has to come out of the water And I think that's the way the commission is leaning at this moment Even though it's 600 pounds And I realized that it hasn't hasn't come out in 30 years I just think that there's a permit out there that and I did ask that exact question because I originally said What's up with the seasonal dock permit? And that's just one of many permits that they have for docks Yeah, right and we'll chuck. Sorry. I again we we don't administer chapter 91. So I don't think we need to find out what chapter 91 is saying about whether the dock is seasonal or not again I think we need to consider the things that alicia said because those more pertain to wetlands protection act jurisdiction And having the dock Removed for those reasons that she said I you know I again our Well, we're not issuing a permit but still our jurisdiction is not chapter 91 So it doesn't matter what again what chapter 91 thinks about this being a seasonal dock Or not if they don't come if the homeowner doesn't comply with the general license certification Then that's up to the waterways division chrissey and her division of the ep to go to uh take enforcement if they want or deal that issue. It's not up to us to Sure compliance with that chapter 91 License or permission. We're concerned about what are the impacts on the wetland resource areas land under water potentially the bank here And all those things that alicia was talking about because alicia is in the wetlands program And which is what we administer and we also have our bylaw So I think that if we want it taken out seasonally, we should have wetland related reasons not chapter 91 reasons yeah, I was Only thinking that the requirements would have it moored out in deeper water But and that's not on the table at this moment. So Understood. I think that if it's moored to the area that Was suggested we're going to have impacts to the bank land under water scouring all the above and I'm sorry to interrupt just a question about the bank too. Is that I saw the stone wall Is that armored all the way down and you know from the shore to the to the water? So is there like a armor that if the dock were left in place? as it's You know as ice flows come in and and it would it would the dock itself start damaging or scouring the shoreline with wave action and That's a good question. Um, could you put up those pictures again ryan? um, the one where it shows parallel to the Because yeah, I mean no one at 600 pounds now. I'm wondering if it's going to be more damaged to the to the shore Taking it's armored where it is. So where where it's tied off. So it's off of its little mooring thing, but tied Um, where it's tied and it's tied to a tree on one end Um, and it's tied to the concrete on the other end that is armored There is other parts of this property that are not armored. You see it ends there But that's not where the dock is sitting So you are correct that where it's sitting in the water is armored But you see that rope Now that rope so the dock can move a little bit and you see where that rope is I mean, I don't know if you can make this picture bigger of ryan, but Um, that's the one end of the dock and that's that's not armored right there So the armoring almost makes the whole edge of the dock, but The dock could move a little bit because you see how that rope slack That would allow the dock to move Yeah, the dock actually does move quite a bit actually even during a single day when it's tied to the tree So I don't think the shading in particular would be an issue because it actually moves quite a bit even in a given day Right So um, but the fact that it moves means it moves past the armored part of the bank as well If that's your question david Yeah, no, I I mean I'd be open to consider leaving it in the water just based on the potential impacts of taking it You know taking it out putting it back in just to the to the bank is an unimpacted portion of the bank If it can be tethered in a way that the most most of the Dock can abut the arm the existing armored portion of the shoreline Just one more point is that um in the spring The thing that you're seeing right now that's on the edge of the lake It grows in this like a bunch of nice bushes like irises and so on which also not Serve the purpose not only to be nice, but actually protect the shore So whichever dates we pick to take it out before that thing starts growing You see what I mean you are you talking about it kind of in front of that tree Yeah, like everywhere along the shore there like these Bushes like irises and stuff like that that actually protect the shore From you know like the dirt from falling into the into the shore So whatever dates we pick to take the dock out should it should be before they start growing Which is usually I think first of may is probably okay So I don't know where that leaves us because I started this thinking seasonal dock that's got to come out But now I'm thinking 600 pound dock impact on Bank erosion Coming in and out. I'm concerned. Maybe more concerned than having it sit there Yeah, not the 600 pound thing is I this is a very quick search on google of a similar dock that they sell in Home Depot So I should double check that particular number, but I do know it's heavy Right. The the only thing I'm thinking is is again a neighbor who is going to do this was having a company come down and Pull it in and out. I don't know how they will man going to manage that Maybe they had a little forklift or something But how how are they going to get a forklift here? I don't know Yeah, because you have such a steep I guess I have I have friends that have docks down the Cape and There's been up in Gloucester as well and there's just companies that come along and they they just float and they connect them All and they take a boat and they run them, you know to a dock and they get lifted out and they store it for the season In Gloucester there's other people down the Cape that they have come along on trees And they just they just pull them right up onto the shore for the for the winter But they they come with a boat you're saying because I mean can they come with a boat onto a mystical lake? I mean, are there such boats on Mystic Lake? I'm not sure to be honest. Yeah Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't think there's a boat ramp. Is there I mean the other thing is I've seen people do is float them to boat ramp and then pull them out on a trailer But I don't think right boat ramp on the lower mystic to do that But you know better than I would yeah not being a resident But I just think for for new docks we just better make sure that they're light enough to be able to If they're going to be seasonal it should be easy and easy out Right, and I guess that would be that would be a condition I would want in the determination to say if this Dock gets replaced then you've got to come before us again because presumably I wouldn't expect them a guess that a lighter dock might be a different different approach Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of different systems some of the newer ones probably you know, they have posts in in the water And maybe they've just get anchored up above Water level during the during the winter so they don't get damaged. So I think there's many different systems out there I thought there was some condition that you're shouldn't anchor them into the water Well, there are issues with the anchor. You're right. I mean there's issues with putting anchors on on the ground because the chains drag The connectors drag on the bottom and it's not good for the benthic habitat either. So But each other pluses and minuses Well, that that's when you get into the other waterways promise too. So, yeah, right, right if you're putting in a post. Yeah Fixed you got pilings right So So I don't know where that leaves us. Yeah, I don't know either because I mean It seems like we're making a decision based on the weight of the dock rather than yeah And we don't have a verified weight of the dock. So I'm almost tempted to go back to my original and say, you know negative determination and and put It's a seasonal dock and it has to come out and Sorry, it's so heavy But it may not be we don't have any we don't have verification of the weight of it. We just Right, I mean and it's not in the materials that That was submitted Yeah, I apologize. I'm not sure what the weight would be No, and as john said, you could maybe come along and and too too strong people could could pull it out or flip it out I'll flip it on you know on the deck side onto this audio area. I don't know but it's um Yeah, I'm sure there's ways to do it. It's just It's not gonna be easy No, but Okay, I'll figure it out. Yeah, I think again, that's yeah, but it comes with a privilege of living on the waterfront. I'm afraid It's a beautiful. It's a beautiful. Um area Really? Yeah, we went down there Beautiful. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, really nice I'm gonna make a motion to issue a negative determination with the conditions that we discussed which is removing the dock from Having a dock out of the water from I guess they don't remember 15th to May 1st Yeah, did you want to make that earlier than May 1st or are you okay with May 1st? um uh Yeah, sometimes I put it back even later, but uh, maybe 15th of april or something like that just to make that's okay I think any time after the shore we're sure there's no frost. What what do you think netha and y'all because you made the motion I'm I'm fine with with april 15th exactly And we had another condition to revise the mate the o-nam plan to make make it clear that it's going to be stored on the shore Out of the water for those time periods Did you want to Yeah, you were talking about if they replace the dock you would want to have them come back to the commission To make sure that it was going to be No, I think now No, I think uh, if it's going to be out of the dock You know the dock if it's going to be out of the water for that time period It doesn't matter to me what the dock material is I I think they need to come back if they enlarge the dock for shore which Would they Chapter 91 would probably trigger that anyways, but we're issuing a determination on a specific sized dock So if they enlarge a new one we could say no no no you gotta come back another Have us look at this again I second ethania's motion okay, um Okay, so I'll find a way to take it out of the water. Uh, I didn't quite catch the part about the three years Sorry, we need to vote first. I'm sorry. Oh, and and wait, um, I made a mistake Um, we didn't we didn't open public comment Oh By the hearing that was my error. Sorry about that. Nathaniel. We got so far into the discussion so, um Chuck can can I open public comment? Sure, sure. I'm assuming you're still running this. Okay. All right. Thanks Um, if there's a member of the public that would like to make a comment on this hearing for uh determination of applicability for this seasonal dock um, you can use the raise hand function if you're on zoom um and it's Let's see if I see anybody Tell me if I'm missing anybody ryan because sometimes I don't See all the little boxes I don't anybody's hand up No, no No hands. Okay. So I'm going to officially close the public comment period and go back to a motion from commissioner Nathaniel Stevens for negative determination And he had stated three A two special conditions one was on um dates The seasonal dock Unstole no earlier than april 15th and remove no later than november 15th every year and to revise the o&m plan To make it clear that the dock is coming out of the water Onto the shore Did I get those right Nathaniel? Yes. Yes, and then And then was there a second to the motion? It was you susan I did the second Okay, and then and and I guess now, um, is there any further comment from commissioners? Any further discussion? So I just wanted to explain that we did talk about a three year But that was talked through so That's not part of this. That's not going to be part of this permit Just so you you understand that so we talked that through And this will be this will run Uh in conjunction with your chapter 91 permit if you have to get that again You're going to have to come back to the conservation commission. So it could be another three years Or maybe in 20 30 when the general permit is uh expires Right, so it'll run with your chapter 91 permit with waterways permit. Is is does that make sense? Yeah, I believe it is 15 years. Yeah, is it okay? Okay Okay, so we should do a vote then Yes, okay. Great. Uh, david white Yes Mike Gildes game. Yes, Dave Kaplan Yes, chapteroni. Yes, Nathaniel Stevens. Yes, and susan chapnick says yes So sorry that took so long. We had to talk through a lot But you'll get a negative determination with those conditions and that should satisfy the um waterways Um, okay. Thank you very much for taking the time uh to resolve this Uh, I just have a very brief completely unrelated question. I heard in the beginning of the meeting you were discussing Getting doing something about the invasive species in spy pond, which I think is fantastic Uh, it turns out there are also invasive species in lower mystic lake I was wondering if there is any plan to do something about those So that's very interesting and I I um, I will just say there are um neighbors of yours. Um, that have formed groups of themselves to do Aquatic management and then they come to the commission to ask for a permit So if you're interested in that, um, you can contact ryan clap the conservation administrator and we can Um, give you a copy of what they've done before Um, the permits are usually for three years Um, and and and they have stipulations on what kind of management needs to be done So The conservation commission permits that but we don't as a town do it ourselves The individual residents do it on mystic lake because mystic lake is so large Um, and some residents choose to do it and some residents choose not to Um, and I forget susan. Is that does that go through dcr as well as the There was that just through the consortium Isn't dcr the owner and they have to get permission through them to do the work? Um, just remembering No, it's a group of neighbors dr. Blonde was the neighbor on the west on the non dcr side david So they don't need permission from dcr is my reflection. Okay. Thank you Okay, is it considered a great pond? Yes, it is a great pond. Yes. Yeah so dcr I'm sorry. You might need you might need to get a sign off from dcr just at least to do the work I think there's an exception in the regs about if you're on a great pond or commonwealth You don't need a the signature on the noi form if I remember Like we haven't gotten it in the past. So I hope that we weren't non-compliant We really we just did it through through residents groups and um oversight by the conservation commission because there are certain herbicides Will approve or not approve. We did go through um national heritage Which you need to do because that's a group marina if you didn't know Who checks to see if there's any kind of endangered species in the area Before you do any treatment or likely to be so they have to sign off on that that there Isn't any assuming there isn't Or else there are tighter controls over what you can do and one of the controls. Um, they're concerned about um Um The department um the department of Is it fishing game or is it mishap is uh the herring? It must be fishing game They were concerned about the treating and and when the herring runs. So they have time um constraints on when Aquatic management can be performed and it has to be outside of the times that that that the herring run Up into the lakes because obviously we don't want to impact that Sure. Yeah, thanks for explaining this. Uh, actually there isn't uh, almost any of them in front of my Property, but I noticed it started growing uh in front of some neighbors. So I was oh, okay I was just you know, it might spread. So no, no, it's good to stay on top of it And and if you'd like any more information about that you can reach out to ryan Thank you. Yeah, thanks for asking Thanks. Okay Back to you. Chuck. Thank you Have a good night. Thank you Okay. Wow, we got that one and that was good Okay, so luckily we don't have another doc permit tonight. Um, and um, but moving right along on the agenda so 88 Coolidge Has a request to continue to Uh, February 1st. Can I get an emotion to continue 88 Coolidge? to February 1st so moved Have a second All in favor. Yeah, let's see. Michael. It's game. Sorry. Yo, yes, Susan Chapnick Sorry, I was on mute. Yes, David white Yes, David Kaplan Yes, Nathaniel Stevens. Yes, and Chuck Turoni says yes So that is moved to February 1st. Notice of intent that the one I place Uh, we also had a request from the applicant, uh, to continue until Uh, February 1st. Can I get a motion? So moved Second second Um So with that we'll take a vote. Uh, Mike Gildes game. Yes, Susan Chapnick. Yes David Kaplan, yes Uh, Nathaniel Stevens. Yes, Dr. Roni I say yes, too You don't say yes. You're abstained That's David white right. David white is that's right. That's right. This is the right place. Yeah. Yeah Just just a reminder. That's why I skipped you Uh, did I get everyone except for David white? I think I did. Yeah So moved to February 2nd Okay, heading back to the discussions. We stopped at the park and rec Um, Mike Gildes game. Can I can I just say did you Did you do a continuation for 88 Coolidge and I missed it? You did miss it because you said yes I said yes. My goodness. Everything went so fast Sorry I know I so so we got 88 Coolidge and we got uh thornedike plays So that's all set. Uh, we're tidy with that stuff And now we're going to head back to the discussion items and start with d which is the park and rec commission liaison um report but like I said, there's no No one went to the last meeting and the next meeting is on the 23rd of this month And as I understand it, Nathaniel Stevens can't make that meeting and Susan Chapnick has accepted uh to go to the meeting Thank you, Susan. Yeah, yeah, the alliance land trust meeting came up and I'd like to attend that so Yep, that sounds great. Um, I'll report back to that. So thank you, Susan. I much appreciate that. Sure And truthfully, we probably could skip the park and rec meeting if we I'm gonna look at the agenda to tell you the truth and see what they're discussing because there have been meetings I attended where really There was nothing that that would have affected the conservation commission. So I will look at that before I go Yeah, so, um, I think it's I've had a fun time And I thought it was important to get to know the park and rec A committee so for me that was uh, kind of valuable time Next on our agenda for discussions is uh letter e artificial turf Um study committee and mike guilders game is the liaison to the conservation commission for that And I reached out to mike and he has a report for the conservation commission So mike, please Thank you. Chuck. Um, well, as you know, the uh, the artificial turf study committee Set up by the town of arlington uh has Begun its work and we are into I think our fourth or fifth meeting at this point The group as a committee is meeting weekly every tuesday and uh in between The uh committee has set up three subgroups Based on our charge from the town to look at safety health and environmental impacts Uh, each of those subgroups is also meeting between meetings So there's a lot of stuff going on um, uh from The uh environmental subgroup, which is consists of myself and uh claire from planning community development and uh, joe bar Who is I think our capital planning? Uh, we've been meeting Seems like all the time there are a lot of unanswered questions and where we are at this point is gathering information and finding that, um One of the key issues has been the infill on artificial turf, which Has in the past largely been crumb rubber And there's been a lot of studies done on the environmental and health impacts of the chemicals that come out of crumb rubber And how they may affect wildlife and other forms of life out there What we've also seen is that there are more recent Ideas for infill including things like coconut shells walnut shells and cork and a bunch of other things and Unfortunately at this point I haven't found studies that talked about the potential impacts of those newer infill products that said We still know that from the grass the artificial grass polyethylene and other components of artificial turf. There are some, uh off Well, there's some difficulties in in Some of those chemicals as well So what we're finding is that there are a huge number of variables And it's been challenging for us to actually nail down the specifics that we want to look at Outside of the crumb rubber studies of which there are a lot And so we are finding that there are Some Unknowns at this point that we are going to have to deal with one way or the other In our little meeting we had today With the subgroup we finally decided on what the outline of our report should be Uh and the way it's going to work. I think is each subgroup is going to put together a report in its area and submit that to the committee as a whole and then those three sub Reports are going to have to be somehow melded together To form a comprehensive picture because we are required by the town charge To compare artificial turf to natural turf fields in these three areas And look at potential mitigation measures One of the big challenges we face is time We have to provide this report and recommendations to the town 30 days at least before town meeting And that does not give us a lot of time to do the work we want to do so It's going to be interesting to see how this all Teases out because as I say, we know there's the research gaps And there's one important factor That was not part of the charge But the committee feels we need to address and that is cost the financial issues And because that's going to be one of the first questions that come up What's the comparison of cost between artificial turf and Natural turf and there are a lot of variables there too When you say natural turf, what are the operation and maintenance plans that you're looking at? What what are the uses of the fields? How often do they have to be have undergo certain kinds of treatment and so forth and so on so That one has yet to be answered, but I'm sure we'll get to it So as you can see there's some progress being made But there's still some challenges ahead of us And the other challenge of course is The variety of places where these fields are going in or not going in The Town of Belmont for instance, I think I reported last time Did not even look at environmental impact. They just based their decision on cost The town of Sharon This based their decision on PFAS And not cost and that was not the main thing so different towns have different Basings for making their decisions. So it I don't know if that helps us or not, but The bottom line is that we've got a fair amount of work to do in a fairly short period of time So if you guys have any questions or suggestions, I'm wide open Mike if I can First of all, I want to say I really appreciate all the work you're doing I've been sitting in on all these meetings as as a resident and I really you're doing a great job. It's a lot of work It's a real it's a lot of work One thing I would encourage is as As you are representing the conservation commission on this study committee I hope you don't get mired too much in the chemicals and what chemicals are coming off mean it is important But I think there's more There there are other impacts that we've discussed in this commission that are equally as important including Plastic is not habitat You know wildlife habitat concerns heat concerns for the environment And then climate resilience, which we have in our regulations in the town We are one of the few towns as you know who have that and we are one of the few commissions in town That have a clear climate resilience standard And is our artificial turf fields consistent with that. I think they're not but You know, that's my opinion But you're representing the commission So at least you have to say the commission has In our local town regulations Climate change resilience standards You need to bring those those kinds of issues up because I just worry that everybody gets So Lost in the chemicals, you know the PFAS and the lead and the zinc and and those are important But there are other things that are also important, right? I appreciate that Susan Yes, I'm well aware of those and I thank you for your contributions to Our discussions with your emails and papers that you've sent along. They're very important Yes, those are key points and one of the other aspects of the committee's work is that we are going to be having speakers I don't know yet. How many speakers for each subcommittee? or anything like that, but The the questions we are going to be asking Speakers will give the committee a chance to ask questions that they did not get a chance to ask at the May town meeting I think there was a lot of feeling there that they were not able to Get into some of the details that people were interested in So hopefully the speakers will be able to do that Nathaniel Thanks, I was just going to note that I If I remember correctly reading the or skimming the latest changes that dp is proposed to the wetlands protection act And the stormwater handbook and stormwater standards I believe they included in their they've now included in their definition of impervious Surfaces artificial turf fields. That's correct. I noticed that personal water purposes. So that's something to note. Again, those are proposed regulations, but it's certainly Indication of where the agency's thinking is on this and what they're proposing, right? So that's another piece of data for your for your thought Yeah, thank you. Did I send you that? That language mic if I didn't I can do that. I thought I did but from my ms4 or from From it in the in the in the proposed regs. Yeah, I don't recall. Well, I can look Okay, and if not I can send them And I also do echo Susan's deep gratitude for you taking on this assignment, especially with a particular with the weekly meetings Yeah, even if you are retired, I'm sure you did not It's spending this It's an interesting process. I must say It is indeed All right Other questions of the cross. Yeah, David Kaplan, yeah, that's clapping hands. That's not a raising hand Thank you Okay, I think uh I think we're all set. Um Yeah, I did want to thank mike also. I attended all the all the meetings except for the last one and I'm surprised that Each member's commitment to this process and I think that we're going to come out Or at least they're going to come out with a well thought out well thought out recommendation or recommendations um Have to think of what artificial turf and and and the resource area and our our jurisdictional area and think about You know For us and for our jurisdiction this what comes out of this meeting May not may not affect the conservation commission because we already have our regulations We already have our standards in our and our The wpa the act and the bylaw um But it would be interesting and I'm and on that note. I'm also not sure What calling artificial turf and I'll look into this more Impervious changes Where it would be located within the buffer zone um But that's just me Interesting, you know something to move forward and think about during the this process okay, so As I see it on the agenda We don't have anything else, but I did want to mention that everybody Well, I saw a lot of commissioners and I know Mike took the first boot camp on I think it was two weeks before a week before so I saw commissioners on the january 9th boot camp And everyone will have an opportunity in person if they want to attend the next boot camp So that's the wpa boot camp by alicia gaylin um on January 31st and then on february 7th That will be in tangsboro. I don't expect anyone's going to tangsboro But uh, I was quite surprised at how interesting and how many topics they covered. I mean people really understood um getting into the second and third layer of what we do And the process that needs to be taken as you're looking at and application And maybe some of the thought process that goes into that. So alicia does a great job And she had another one today, which was completely over my head, but it was about enforcement and it was uh, it was uh Something else, but um It was about dp appeals. I believe not not enforcement. Well, yeah, it was the appeal process, but but how to How that's interpreted and how to position yourself to you know I guess to prevent that appeal or to understand that appeal Yeah, so it was it was a lot of that um and to So I forgot the terminology, but there's a thing where you want to be you want to be a Partner or something in the appeal you have to you have to start asking questions right away in the process Previous participation. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and and some of that stuff was really deep, but Interesting, you know, I guess if Nathaniel ever decided to leave the Oregon conservation commission We we'd really have to start paying attention to some of these Appeal processes, but they're done. Yeah. Yeah, we're good. I deal with it too often too frequently with clients that I care to admit so Chuck may I make a suggestion? And then I see Mike has his hand up. Um, we get through the concom emails. We get all alicia's emails and after she does a training she sends the slides Would it be possible for ryan? um To send the slides to the full commission so that commissioners who don't get those emails or aren't on those email lists Can avail themselves of looking at the slides if they didn't get to do the training So I don't get those to everybody Sure, so I uh Not a problem. I will send uh ryan those slides because I don't think ryan attended um So I'll I'll when I get the slides. I do have the slides. Oh good. I could send those to you all right now Rating and maybe if you could you know if that's okay with you chuck if I hope we lost susan training. He sends them out because why not Free training so she did did she do coastal stuff? It was for northeast region, right? So she did coastal. Yes A little bit a little bit And chuck did you see mike has his hand up? Oh, hi, I actually don't I was just wondering. I don't know sarah had an opportunity to deal with the tree committee yet. Um, But I don't know if she has a vision off there to that Yeah, thanks for talking to sarah. Sure. I actually even said that at the beginning of the meeting So I I would be happy to if that's okay So first thank you to my to my guilders game for preparing me Meeting with me to prepare me and make sure I was up to date before I attended So I attended the tree committee on the 10th the tree warden had a scheduled conflict and he was not able to attend um They were they were discussing new members. They are two new members whose names are being put forth Uh to the select board for approval. One of them was here, uh, but did she dropped off earlier? because We talked about, you know that there is mutual interest and um They they discussed the tree damage from the storm the dpw was working on it and very busy um They discussed some warrant articles that they were considering voting on for the next town meeting um, they additionally they discussed that They're their wish to have their tree committee annual report included in the town annual report And that was something that they were going to discuss Uh, and the final thing was they discussed uh goals for the new year That's it, but nothing specific. Uh, that was con con That you know, um, but it was very interesting. It was truly a pleasure to attend Thanks for attending. Oh my pleasure the report Yeah, thank you, sir Sarah, do you uh, do you know when the next meeting has been uh scheduled? Wednesday of every month the second wednesday or first wednesday of again First wednesday February would be the 17th I think I have that right Sarah, I think you're muted if you're speaking Yeah, uh, thank you, uh, february 14th 14th Yeah, so I I wrote it down just in case Mike could not go Well I was gonna I was gonna see if uh, sarah you were interested in sort of Permanently taking on the liaison with uh, if the commission is interested in having you do that I'd be very glad at least until this turf committee is done to have one last meeting to go to I would love to but it's up to the commission to okay it Time with me Okay You're okay with that. That's good to me It's in my calendar Does that need a vote or where where I mean, it's fine with me too. I think this is great. I mean One person can't do all the meetings Okay, thank you Thank you. Yeah Anything else Move to adjourn Wait a minute one just before we adjourn I want to just reach out to anyone that was attending tonight that may have something to say to give them an opportunity to speak I see some names out there that I don't recognize If you feel like speaking just use the reactions button at the bottom of the screen and raise your hand Seeing none Do we have a motion to adjourn? So moved Second or second all in favor just wait. Hi. Hi. Thanks everyone unanimous everyone. Good night. Thank you. Good night, everyone night