 Mark Shklav, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going across the sea to Los Angeles and New York City. My guests are Gerald Libby, a partner in the Zuber Law Firm in Los Angeles, and Kenneth Stewart of Council to the Becker-Glynn Law Firm in New York City. Both are good friends of mine for many years. I usually meet with Jen, Jerry, and Ken at our annual meeting for the Inter-Pacific Bar Association. This year the IPB annual meeting was scheduled for April in Shanghai. Well, the COVID-19 pandemic changed that and has changed all of our lives. COVID-19 has kept us apart, but also strangely, it has brought us all together in a way. I've asked Jerry and Ken to tell us what's happening in Los Angeles, in New York City during these unprecedented times and how COVID-19 has impacted them and their cities. Welcome, gentlemen. Good to see you. Happy to be here, Mark. Thank you. Thank you both. Honolulu has a quarantine for out-of-state visitors, and we just went into a 14-day lockdown for the entire city. What's happening in Los Angeles and New York City? How has the COVID-19 pandemic affected your city? Jared, let me start with you and go from there. Well, COVID-19 has had a major negative effect on Los Angeles, not surprisingly. Initially, Los Angeles and also San Francisco reacted very quickly and went into major shutdowns right away, and that was seen as very successful and for quite some time, San Francisco and LA had relatively little infection from COVID. But there was great pressure from more rural areas of California to ease up on the restrictions, and those restrictions were eased up in the early part of the summer, resulting in a major return of the coronavirus. Actually, not a return, but more infection than had ever been seen in Los Angeles to the point where Los Angeles became one of the most affected cities in Los Angeles, and that has resulted in a new round of closures imposed by Governor Newsom that just took effect today in an effort to stop the major spread that we saw in Los Angeles, and it has affected everyone in a very dramatic way. Well, we're kind of going through the same thing right now, too. That's very interesting. I mean, it's very interesting that we're all together in this in a way. I mean, we're all going through the same thing. Kenneth, what's happening and what has happened in New York? What's happening? OK, well, it's a long chapter in New York because we were, as you know, COVID central, starting pretty much mid-March. The virus seemed to come from travelers who have been to Europe more than Asia, and New York had an insufficient number of personal protective equipment, insufficient supplies, substantially not enough hospital beds, not enough weight to dispose of bodies, et cetera. Ultimately, the governor, Andrew Cuomo, took a very firm hand and remarkably from a drop of, I mean, from well over 1,000 cases a day, the rate in New York for the last 23 days has been below 1%. The most recent numbers are that there are total hospitalizations of 429 people, Saturday or Sunday of this past week, and an intubation of no more than 47. So it's been a remarkable turnaround. I don't know if you have a photo that I sent of myself standing in Madison Avenue, which would show what New York looked like during the lockdown itself. That's amazing. Empty. But it was absolutely empty. A little during that period of time, New York was one of the first cities to see pretty severe rioting. There was looting. There was some serious problems. Gradually, things got better. And if one walks around now or goes out as I did this past weekend and went through Central Park, I think I provided a photo of the sheet metal in Central Park. And much to my pleasant surprise, there's actual social distancing, which is not something that we often saw, but was strongly encouraged. Unlike other cities, New York City still is prohibiting bars from serving and restaurants from serving indoors. And there's no sign as to when that will be lifted. So a walk on Amsterdam and Columbus Avenue is on the west side. And I think if it's available, I sent a photo of outdoor dining because that's how many of the restaurants are surviving. Of course, it's the summer. Suddenly a thunderstorm comes late afternoon or evening. And restaurants have to cope with that because they can't bring people into us and serve them. But New York has gotten substantially better. I would say that we still have a mandate of masks statewide by the governor. If one walks through the streets of New York, you would find maybe 50%, some days 40%, some days 60% properly wearing face masks. The other people have them on their chins, their elbows, their heads, anyplace, but where they should be. But fortunately, the current rate, as I say, was 0.67% statewide. So that's remarkable. We are all very concerned about what's going to happen next. There was one photo you sent us of some police officers sitting on a bench, I guess, in Central Park. What was that about? It's actually where we live pretty much across the street from Central Park and credit where it should be because I think it's a pretty good photo and my wife took it on my iPhone. But it was shortly after the worst of the riots happened. And that part of Central Park is also fairly close to Trump Tower. The headquarters of Trump Organization. So it looks like they were taking the break and on the personal devices, but I just thought it was a unique photo of New York City's finest. It sounds like things are getting better in New York City. Now, Jerry, we have a shot of the freeway near your house. Normally, I mean, I've been on the LA freeway. Not how it looks. That photo, that is not just any freeway. That is the infamous 405 freeway. North South freeway and it is very frequently described as the most congested highway in the United States. It's an infamous burden for those of us who live here. And you can see this picture is taken during the daytime. And on any day, even not during rush hour, there would be heavy traffic on this particular stretch of road. And as you saw from the photo, it was completely empty. And that was, that was the case during the early days of COVID, you know, March, late March, April into May, when LA and San Francisco had really locked down, the traffic just disappeared from the streets, which was perhaps the only good thing that came of it. It is different now. But there are still many serious restrictions on restaurants, museums, stores and the like, which are going to be in place for a long time to come. So it sounds like in both cities you've gone through some hard times. LA, Los Angeles seems like it's still having a tough time. New York City seems to be doing okay. Am I reading this right? Yes, Mark, interestingly enough, on Saturday, I think of this past weekend, the museums have finally opened in New York City, Metropolitan Museum, Museum of Modern Art, very popular places. But they are open only at 25% capacity, limited hours and only five days a week, and you must make a reservation online in advance and, you know, show up at your appointed time. And it's a very big museum, I think personally, it could probably, and they mandate mask wearing. So I would think that they could probably do more than 25% capacity, but it's a slow go. Gyms have been closed, but I think they are getting very close to when they can be opened as well. Whereas in Los Angeles, the museums are closed. Disneyland, Universal Studios, they may have opened in Florida, but they are closed in Los Angeles. Pac-12 football, Pac-12 sports for the fall season have been canceled, including football and soccer, and I mean, it's been a severe impact on recreation and working life in Los Angeles, not to mention the schools. The Los Angeles public schools will be closed for on-campus learning indefinitely in the fall semester. And in Los Angeles, have you also had to deal with these racial justice protests? And how have you handled that? How has that been handled? What's happened? Very much so. After the George Floyd killing in the beginning of the summer, there were many protests throughout the LA area. LA, it's no secret, is a liberal political, in political terms, city. We're very used to civic protests. And generally the police are equipped to respond to them. But there were many, many protests throughout the greater LA area, even in some of the suburbs. And we have a complex municipal structure. We have Los Angeles County, which is a very large area, which contains 88 incorporated cities, one of which is the city of Los Angeles, but other familiar names like Santa Monica and Beverly Hills are, are their own incorporated cities. They all have their own police forces. And they don't always respond with uniformity to emergency situations. And unfortunately at these protests were met with, in the view of many excessive police force in, in Beverly Hills and Santa Monica in one particular location in Los Angeles. And that was, that was a, that was a bad, a bad moment in the, in the Los Angeles experience with COVID. Well, you know, we, we are all experiencing similar economic problems too, I think, and New York, what's happening in, can in New York? I mean, how do you, how are you dealing with the down economy at this point? With difficulty, interestingly enough, today, or I think tomorrow possibly today or tomorrow is the first day in five months that people have to pay bus fares and subway fares if they take public transportation in order to provide protection for the operators of both buses and mass transit subways. And particularly the buses. They had people boarding in the back and not having to pay any fare, which is usually up front and the driver was somewhat rolled off. So there's an enormous deficit in the, the MTA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority, which governs essentially the mass transportation in New York City. And they haven't quite figured out if the federal government doesn't provide assistance how they'll ever deal with that. Just as one illustration, obviously New York has probably more restaurants than certainly as many restaurants as any other place in the world. And a substantial number of them will never reopen again. You know, I still close notwithstanding the outdoor dining. So that's been severe hit. Interesting enough in today's New York Times, and this may be getting a little astray of the thing, but one of the headlines, it might have been yesterday. Today's New Yorkers are fleeing to the suburbs and the demand is insane. And just having heard something not too long ago about the census, one of the most underreported areas in the whole country is the Upper East Side of New York. Probably because people haven't been home to get their mail or haven't bothered to respond to it. Because they all have all obviously I'm living in the Upper East Side and I'm here, but a number of them have fled. I'm in a building that has approximately 205 apartments or so. And you can almost count on the fingers of one hand, the number of apartments that are still occupied. We have seven on our floor and we are the only permanent residents who have been fled. Jerry, is that happening in Los Angeles too? I mean, are people fleeing the city and going, where are they going to? Yeah, well, there is a lot of that. People who are fortunate enough to have second homes or are vacating to those homes in other areas of California or out of the state. There are many other people who may not have homes elsewhere, but are looking at opportunities to get out of the city, partly for COVID reasons, partly because their employment may have been jeopardized. I mean, there's massive unemployment in Los Angeles. There have been layoffs. The film production business, which is probably the second biggest industry in Los Angeles, is shut down. Nothing is being produced. The tourism business, like Hawaii, tourism is a big part of the LA economy and again, Disneyland, Universal Studios, countless facilities, sporting events and so forth closed. Massive layoffs in the industries that support all of that. And some people are moving out of state. California has a quite high state tax rate. And Los Angeles has become a very high cost city. And those factors are driving quite a number of people to move to places like Texas, which does not have a state income tax and is, is a much lower cost in general, not, not perhaps Houston or major cities, but in other parts of Texas, the cost of living is much lower. Same would be true of Arizona. So there is a certain exodus from Southern California, but Southern California, of course, does have, still has great appeal. And this is, this is, this is not a new phenomenon. I think that in general over the last 10 years, it's been a net zero effect. A lot of people leaving, but new, new people coming in as well, both, both U.S. citizens and immigrants from abroad, legally or illegally. And so it tends to be net, but we, we certainly, I certainly am acquainted with people who are moving out of state. So Ken, let me, you know, ask you directly about your law practice. How is that being affected? And Jerry, I'd like you to tell me about yours too. But Ken first, I mean, how, how has your law practice and been affected? How has your law firm dealt with it? And is the bar association involved? Well, we have a firm of approximately 35 lawyers, about five paralegals and 10 non-legal staff. We have been working remotely since mid-March, maybe around the 15th to 20th of March. As of today, actually don't mention partner just sent an email that I got about a half hour ago saying, because previously we were looking at post labor debt as a possible reopening. And now it looks like the earliest might be 31st of October, and that's still up in the air. So it is all working remotely. It is possible to go into the office if one needs to. But partners, for example, cannot ask an associate or a secretary to come to work unless it is an existential client emergency and requirement. And before you can go into the office, you have to fill out an online health questionnaire to answer three questions, whether you've been out of state, whether you have temperature or cold symptoms to go into my office building itself. They have a machine to take the temperature and, and various other restrictions about it. But as far as the practice is concerned, it's been, I won't say vibrant, but it's been remarkably steady. We are fortunate that, you know, some of our clients work just keeps on going. The one area that, or maybe the two areas that probably are less successful are litigation, because of course, if not closed, they've certainly been putting off everything they can. And it's difficult to do a state planning and administration, although that still goes on. But, you know, the remote notarization, particularly for elderly clients is quite a challenge. So, you know, the inability to have people come to the office or to go to their apartment is a problem. Jerry, what's, what's, what's Los Angeles like? My firm has offices in our main offices in Los Angeles. We have offices in New York, Chicago and the Silicon Valley. They all closed in mid-March and we've been all of us working remotely without interruption ever since. We have no expectation of going back to the office before the end of this year, January at the earliest. We can go to our office in LA with a letter from the firm explaining that it's necessary for us to enter the office. We will not be permitted to enter the building without such a letter. I have not done that. But I have to say that as a corporate transactional lawyer, I've worked fairly effectively. And I think my colleagues would say the same. Los Angeles is famous for its driving commutes. I ordinarily have a 60-minute drive each way to and from the office. And I've exchanged that for a 15-second walk from our kitchen to there I'm now. That's two extra hours per day, which sometimes are billable. So I would say that our business law transactional group is functioning more or less as we did before. The litigators, as Ken suggested, life is different. The federal courts and state courts in Los Angeles are essentially closed. There are no hearings, no trials, no hearings. Filings are made. And there is sort of an easier path to settlement of many cases because when lawyers are told that their trial may be two years away, there tends to be a greater motivation to settle a case. So we're seeing some of that. We're seeing an increase in the amount of employment law matters, given the huge number of layoffs and the like. A great deal of work, particularly in the early months and analyzing force majeure and clauses and business interruption, insurance policies and the like, all relating to the shutdown and contracts being not performed and terminated and so forth. But the firm is doing okay. And I think we had involved ourselves in a lot of Zoom traffic before COVID. And I think we were pretty facile with Zoom. And we have, I mean, I'm on Zoom all day with department meetings and client calls. And we have a firm-wide town hall every month with everyone in all the offices on Zoom. And I think most people would say we've been able to maintain a sense of communication and cohesion, but I think we've been able to maintain a sense of communication and cohesion, despite the fact that no one has seen each other in person since mid-March. And what you say is kind of interesting too. I walk around my neighborhood in the morning and I feel rather thankful in a way that I'm home. And now you've mentioned, Jerry, that you don't have that hour every which way to work. But has something good come out of this? Is there a positive light you can shed on COVID-19 that you feel? Well, one of my partners who spent 10 years working for US law firms in Moscow, and I'd say 95% of his clients are not in Russia, but around Russia, around Europe, some I guess are still in Russia, but not on the sanctions list. And he used to come into the office at 6 a.m. and get up at about 4.30 because he has an hour and a half commute. He lives up in Westchester and has chickens on his property, among other things. So he is not only as Jerry pointed out, saving three hours a day of commuting, but he doesn't have to quite worry about being at 6 a.m. because of the time difference in dealing with his clients. In my case, I live 17 blocks from my office and it's about a 15 or 20 minute walk depending on traffic lights. So I have been going in generally on a Saturday or Sunday when I know nobody's going to be there or if it's a weekday I would try to go in late afternoon or early evening. So I'm essentially the only one walking around. I'd say very few of the lawyers have been going in. Interestingly enough, in our proposed Zoom, we had a new partner along with a team of three other lawyers join us on June 1st it was. And of course he had met some of the partners in the, you know, in the process, but most of us have only met him on Zoom. And we're working with him as if we know him, but we haven't seen him and we haven't met him. Well, and you know, we have a couple of minutes left. Jerry. You know, if I'm a new lawyer, I'm not a new lawyer, but I would just pass the bar. What are you going to, what advice would you give me? And then I'll ask Ken the same question. A young lawyer starting out, what advice would you give that young lawyer about the practice of law or beginning a legal career in this, in these weird times? Well, my advice, I'm asked that question from time to time. And my advice would not really be different. Now that it would have was a year ago or five years ago or 10 years to go and my advice would be first that the law is a, is a remarkably satisfying profession. I virtually every day I remind myself how, how fortunate I was to have been to stick it out. And stay with it. There are many, many rewarding aspects of it. So that would, and so my advice, the first bit of my advice would be to, to really, really try it and really make an effort to immerse yourself in the law and, and, and give it a, give it a good solid shot. Number one, and number two, if, if, if, if I'm speaking to a recent graduate and newly minted lawyer, I would do whatever you have to do within reason to get into an office where you will have some supervision and training by more experienced lawyers. And it really, there are many different types of offices from, from law firm offices to, to governmental offices, public interest law offices. But the most, there's no substitute in my limited experience for being exposed to more senior lawyers with experience who are good, who are interested, taking interest in younger lawyers and are willing to impart some, some type of training. That to me is the most important thing a young lawyer can do after, after graduating from law school. Okay. Ken, I mean, has, has the COVID 19 changed your advice to young lawyers or is it the same or what, where are you at? Not remarkably different or not very different from Jerry. Although, you know, as you can see from the color of my hair, I've been doing this a long time. And during my 50 years of practice, there has been a remarkable change in the nature of the law practice. And, and I think, you know, it has its pluses and it has its minuses. If I were advising young lawyer, I would encourage them that it's a wonderful, a, area in which to, to learn and acquire knowledge, whether you end up practicing law or not practicing law. But in addition to the training, which is so important, unless they have an enormous student debt and they need to try to get a big paying job to help hang off the debt, you know, try to find something that will give you personal satisfaction and reward because so many young lawyers get burned out, you know, pretty quickly if they go to big firms, they might, you know, be working on some challenging things. But I would really ask them to try to step back and, and try to figure out what they want in life and try to select the firm on that basis. But I agree with Jerry training and working with experienced people is invaluable. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you for your time. And, you know, it's good to get together. During this pandemic, it's interesting. I just feel like it, the pandemic is, is bringing us together in a good way. And I appreciate your willingness to talk with us about what's happening in Los Angeles. In New York City. And it makes us all relate. Because similar to Hanlulu, hopefully we can all work together and make things get better. As we move forward in life. So gentlemen, thank you. I'm glad to see you. Look forward to seeing you again. And maybe we'll meet up at the next IPBA meeting. We'll, we'll see how, how it goes. So Aloha. Or sooner I would hope. Yeah. My pleasure, Mark. Good to see you. Good to see you can. And you're caring. Right.