 The next item of business is a debate on motion 657.2—on the name of Ben Macpherson—on progress on the automation and take-up of Scottish social security benefits. I invite those members to speak in the debate, please press the request and speak buttons— At this point will allow me to ask Ben MacPherson to speak two and to move the motion— Until about 12-minute onwards, please. Mae'n hyn yn gofymu, dyma oedd yn gweithio'n gweithio brydolog. Mae hyn yn dweud i'r gweithio gyda digwydd, y dychwil edrych ond ac ynghylch gwrdd y 21rchu Rydym yn ei beth sydd wedi'i gweithio'r cychwyn, ond mae'n gweithio'n chweithio'r cychwyn. Mae'n galw pethau ffongol, ac mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'r gychwyn. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'r cychwyn. oedd bod yn ond ar gyfer yr plant yn golygiad oeddi sydd oeddi't fairdfaiddau yn cael�io'r byn teimlo ddarparu. Mae yna gweithydd gwrdd cyfnodd yn gwyfodol iawn, yn bod yn dwylo fwy o bobl yn gwylluydd ar hyn yn ymgyrch yn yweud. Mae'n gwybod yn ymgyrch yn gweithio'r environment. Ond mae'n entrym, os yw'r ysgrifydd yng nghymru, amser yn ddullion perthwyr hwnnw i ddwynt yn gynnwys i gweithio cyflymidol and households during this time that is not available elsewhere in the UK. That, of course, includes the Scottish child payment, which will shortly increase to £25 per week, and be extended to under-16s. Yesterday, the Deputy First Minister also confirmed that we will double the December bridging payment for families to £260 and increase our fuel and security fund to £20 million. I acknowledge the action that the UK Government has taken so far and it is welcome, but also we need them to use the vast amount of levers that they have to do more in this emergency, to tackle the scale of the challenge in a way that is required, including increasing benefits in line with inflation and increasing universal credit by £25, which should also be extended to means-tested legacy benefits, because in the context of this cost of living crisis, in this unjust context that has undoubtedly been influenced by Covid and international affairs, but has also undoubtedly been exacerbated by 10 years of ideological austerity, the calamity of Brexit and reckless recent UK Government economic policy decisions, in this context the importance of a reliable and responsive social security net has never been more pertinent and how we use the limited powers and resources of this devolved parliament ambitiously but also realistically where we can to make a meaningful difference has never been more important. Presiding Officer, the Scottish Government is clear that social security is an investment in the people of Scotland. Indeed, this is the first of the eight principles in the Social Security Act 2018. It is a shared investment in building a fairer society together and from promoting devolved Scottish benefits to delivering more accessible application processes, from providing advice and advocacy to taking a more person-centred approach and starting from a position of trust, we are committed to doing what we can to ensure people are aware of what they are entitled to and feel empowered to seek what they are due. That is why we are working day in day out to remove barriers, to provide support, to tackle any stigma around applying for benefits and to get more money out to low-income households, more money out to them than anywhere else in the UK. Remarkable teams are doing this work out of Social Security Scotland's offices in Dundee and Glasgow and we are also working in communities across the country directly with people using the social security system. As we have successfully implemented Social Security Scotland's local delivery network with over 400 excellent staff now operational in 32 local authority areas. In the four years since the 2018 Social Security Act was passed, we, the Scottish Government, with highly motivated and extremely capable civil servants, have delivered 12 benefits, seven of which are completely new forms of financial support only available in Scotland and our 13th will be introduced in February called winter heating payment. We are delivering a simplified, easily accessible, compassionate system that treats everyone with dignity, fairness and respect, a system in which 92 per cent of respondents to a client's survey have rated their overall experience as very good or good. I thank the minister for taking the intervention and I welcome the approach that the minister has outlined to Social Security Scotland, but how does that explain the high rates of redeterminations coming back overturning the decision, particularly in child disability payment? I'm not sure what empirical evidence Ms Pam Duncan-Glancy is citing, but I'm happy to engage with her on that point. Of course there is a determination on both child disability payment and adult disability payment to get our decisions right first time, but I'm happy to have further engagement on that point, but certainly the situation that she has outlined is not reflective of the situation as I see it, but we can engage on that further in a constructive way. Just to deal with the amendments at this juncture, the Conservative amendment, I've already acknowledged the support of the UK Government but pushed and encouraged them to do more. Unfortunately I cannot accept the Conservative amendment because there's a factual inaccuracy in it in that it states that the Scottish welfare fund review has been delayed, which has not. I will update the committee shortly on that but I cannot accept that amendment because of that. Unfortunately I cannot accept the Labour amendment either because it deletes huge portions of the motion and also through what all I can see is wishful thinking seems to state that matters could be done quicker and could have been delivered quicker through the years past. I say in good faith that since the 2018 act has been passed, this Government has worked with innovation, determination and passion to deliver as quickly as possible but also as safely and securely as possible Scottish devolved social security benefits and we will continue to do that. The motion itself is and not party political in the sense that it doesn't criticise and it doesn't talk about the constitution so if both amendments are defeated I would hope that all parties can support the motion and we can take a united approach because this Government is working proactively with determination to support people who are eligible for assistance and to help them to access and take up the benefits to which they are entitled. For example information about Scottish social security benefits is featured as part of our new cost of living campaign which directs people to our new one-stop shop website that was launched in September and moreover social security Scotland has delivered 12 paid for marketing campaigns since October 2021, covering a range of online and offline channels including TV, radio, print, digital and out of home advertising and of course we will continue to work with stakeholders to ensure information about each of the Scottish benefits is available in places where our target audiences already are so that it's accessible as possible. For example 43,000 leaflets covering the five family payments and more recently the child disability payment are included in the Scottish Government's baby box and in NHS midwife and health visitor packs. We are also providing materials to DWP work coaches and job centres to encourage young people to apply for the job start payment and we have partnered with supermarket retailer ASDA and worked with Iceland, Scotland and the co-op to make sure that information about our benefits reaches people where they are and information about our benefits is also included in refugee welcome packs and fact sheets are proactively translated into community languages like Ukrainian in particular this year and of course in January we launched our free and independent social security advocacy service to support disabled people to access and apply for Scottish social security benefits and we have also continued to invest in providing advice and accessible settings to maximise incomes and tackle poverty. I'm unsure maybe it's my ignorance but I'm unsure where within my region these advisers sit. Would it be possible for at least MSPs and maybe local councillers to be given that information because I'm certainly not aware of where it happens within Lothian? Social security Scotland has been proactive with MPs and MSPs about reaching out to raise awareness of the services available and Pam Duncan Glancy met her local delivery team just recently. I can take that point away to following this debate to write out to members again with sources of information so that all of us can play a role in spreading the word because we're doing it in GP practices, it's happening across Scotland as I've set out and all of this is helping with take-up rates and it's being done to drive take-up of benefits and our latest estimates of take-up for benefits were published on Monday and this has been a very helpful publication. It is estimates and it's difficult to analyse but it will help to give us a benchmark in order to continue to track where we are. Our most recent estimate take-up rates are reassuring on the whole, showing really encouraging figures for our Scottish child payment and best start suite of payments in particular. We're not quite where we want to be with funeral support payment and job start payment however we're working proactively to make a difference there. Presiding Officer, automation is one of the key tools available to us in driving up the take-up of benefits and automation of processes and payments across the social security system is an area that we're working proactively in to remove barriers to access. We have already automated the carers allowance and child winter heating assistance and if Parliament agrees next week we will also pay the best start early learning and best start school age payments automatically to eligible individuals who are in receipt of Scottish child payment from the 28th of November. There's more to do in that area and I'm sure we'll discuss it today but we're already making good progress. It would be inappropriate for me not to outline in this debate at the beginning important ways in which we seek to maximise the take-up of Scottish benefits without referencing resourcing and the financial uncertainty that we are in. Social security expenditure is needs-based and demand-led and as such is determined by the number of people who are in receipt of benefits. It's important to acknowledge that after benefit take-up has taken place any shortfall between actual expenditure and the social security block grant adjustment will need to be covered by funding by the Scottish Government in line with the principles and policies set out in the mid-term financial strategy. But we are absolutely committed and resolute in our conviction that this spend is important as it's an investment in the people of Scotland and about putting our principles into practice. We have a finite budget, one that is already worth 1.7 billion less than it was in December due to inflationary pressures and UK Government actions but every decision we make in social security that needs additional investment must come from that fixed budget as the constraints of devolution mean that we cannot borrow to meet increased costs but we are absolutely commuted to promoting and encouraging people to access benefits and the support that they are entitled to because it's the right thing to do. In conclusion, the collective challenge our constituents face underlines the need for us to work together to help support and empower people to access assistance that they are entitled to, both Scottish support and UK Government support such as universal credit and pension credit. I wish to emphasise that if we all need to encourage people to access social security Scotland and that when they do so they will always be treated with dignity, fairness and respect. I move the motion in my name. Thank you minister and before I call the next speaker could I remind all those members who wish to speak in the debate to ensure that their request to speak buttons are in fact pressed? Thank you. I now call on Jeremy Balfour to speak to and move amendment 6572.1 up to eight minutes please Mr Balfour. Thank you deputy Presiding Officer. I'm happy to be speaking in Mr Bate today and to move the Conservative amendment in my name. It's amendment that I hope can unite us in this chamber in recognising the work that both the Scottish Government are doing to help people during the cost of living crisis because that is what this country needs at this moment in history. It needs both our Governments to work together to elevate the stress that is being placed on families. The benefit of devolution is that alongside national measures that are enacted UK wide we can also provide targeted local support here in Scotland. And our amendment reflects this, acknowledging that there's a positive working relationship between the dark department of work and pensions and the Scottish Government and I want to give credit to the minister for engaging constructively with the DWP to ensure that claimants in Scotland have been seen minimal disruption during the transfer to Social Security Scotland. However, I'm afraid that that is where the credit for the Scottish Government runs dry because the transfer of benefits to a devolved agency has been far from smooth. Late and over budget doesn't even begin to describe the extent to which the SNP have struggled to take control of benefits in Scotland in a second. The handover won't be completed until at least 2025, meaning that a project that was projected to take full years will have taken almost a decade. The admin cost of Social Security Scotland has quadrupled from £36 million in 2019-20 to a staggering of £130 million in 2021-22. I'm happy to take the intervention. Minister. I thank the member for taking the intervention. Does the member recognise that increases in cost have been because we are delivering more than was envisaged when we passed the 2018 act in that we are delivering seven benefits that are not available elsewhere in the UK? Does the member acknowledge that both the Department for Work and Pensions and the Scottish Government made a collective decision to pause the delivery of some of our benefits because of the need for reprioritisation during the pandemic? This is a joint exercise between the UK Government and the Scottish Government, so any criticism on delay should be targeted at both Governments if it's going to have any validity. Jeremy Balfour? I think that the minister actually misses the point that this would have been delayed even without Covid. These delays were already in place before Covid hit and that was all to do with the Scottish Government, nothing to do with DWP. I add to the fact that the Scottish Government's soft approach investment has cost Social Security Scotland over £64 million in fraud and error over the last year alone, and we find ourselves staring at a complete mess. Thankfully, the broad shoulders of the UK Government have been able to pick up the slack led by this SNP mismanagement. Thanks to the steady hands of DWP, claimants have experienced minimal disruption and money continues to get into their hands of those who need it. It's worth noting at this point that if the Scottish Government had their way and broken up the UK, the people of Scotland would lose their vital support. It would be on its own to muddle through the difficulties of setting up a social security system for an entire nation, and we haven't been able to do a few benefits. I'm afraid my time is running short. The truth is, Presiding Officer, as much as this SNP Government might like to defect from their own record by complaining about big bad Westminster, the DWP is taking action to ensure that the people of Scotland are supported through this difficult period. No, I'm afraid I don't have time. We are providing the £650 cost of living payment for every household on mean-statted benefits, meaning that over £8 million of the most vulnerable UK— Will I get the time back, Presiding Officer? You can get a wee bit of time back, yes. Do you stop, Bob? I thank the member for giving way. The member keeps talking about the broad shoulders of the UK. Can I ask the member to believe that the broad shoulders of the UK should operate all benefits in line with inflation, so that people living in poverty aren't suffering at the hands of the broad shoulders of the UK? Jeremy Balfour. Yes, I do. I do believe that. Let me continue. Over 8 million of the most vulnerable UK households will be directly sent a one-off cost payment for £650. We have increased the winter fuel payment to £300 in addition to sending all existing recipients an additional one-off £300 cost payment, helping families to heat their homes this winter, not another delay by the Scottish Government for another year. An extra £150 disability cost of living payment for those in the seat of disability benefits provides support for the most vulnerable in our society. For those in disability benefits such as the DLA and PIP, £150 boosts will provide much-needed supplementary funds. That is all in addition to the £400 cash grant to every household to help with energy costs over the next six months. Presiding Officer, this is in contrast to the sovereign rhetoric of the SNP Government. It never seems to live up to the hype. We get huge promises to grab headlines and fuel conferences speeches and almost immediately it comes down and fails. For this reason, Presiding Officer, we on these benches are skeptical of the Government's ability to deliver on their plans. I'd be interested to hear from the minister about the number of welfare advisors that are in place across Scotland and how many GP practices today have somebody in place rather than something that will happen in the future. I'm happy to give way for you like, shall we? Minister. I thank Jeremy Balfour for the paragraph that I had to cut from time, but the investment that we are making takes our total commitment to 3.5 million over three years and places welfare rights advisers in up to 180 GP practices in Scotland's most deprived areas. Jeremy Balfour. Again, the minister fails to answer the question how many are in place today, not in the future but today and yet again another delay and another failing. The Scottish welfare fund, and I would be generally interested if the minister can tell us if it is not delayed, will he give a guarantee that we will see that report on the due date and perhaps he can cover that in his closing off rather than keep saying he's going to write to the committee. Presiding Officer, to round up, we on these benches support both of Scotland's Governments in efforts to ensure that support makes it to roads we need us quickly and seamlessly as possible, but the promises must be matched with action. People don't need kind words about future plans, they need real action right now. Thank you and I move the amendment in my name. Thank you Mr Balfour and I now call on Pam Duncan-Glancy to speak to and move amendment 6572.2 up to six minutes please, Ms Duncan-Glancy. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and I move the amendment in my name. In the midst of the current cost of living crisis, people are struggling more than ever. We need a social security system that meets that challenge. It is crucial that it is fit for purpose and is able to catch people when they need help. Social security exists to provide that safety net, but safety nets are no use if there are holes in them. There should be no one entitled to benefit in Scotland that does not yet receive it. Sadly, there are too many people in that position. Nearly 30 per cent of young carers do not get the grant that they are entitled to and over 30 per cent of people who are eligible do not get funeral support payments. There are other examples. The easiest way to sort this is obviously to automate payments, so I welcome moves from the Government to do so, but I am again frustrated at the pace of and ambition for change on this. We should really be striving for a system that is smart enough to identify incomes, recognises when people become eligible for benefits and can then pay out. Instead, what we have is something that is piecemeal, staggered and disconnected. We really need to address this because automation would not just ensure that people do not miss out on the money that they are entitled to. It would remove the burden of having to hunt down support in times of crisis. Part of the problem, though, is that right now we do not have a system that is fully administered in Scotland, never mind fully automated. There is still no timetable for the development and delivery of many of the devolved benefits, the replacement for attendance allowance, carers additional person payment, severe disabling allowance or employment injury assistance. We are still waiting in the Government's plans for a replacement carers allowance too, and in the meantime, thousands of carers are falling through the net, not receiving anything for the care that they do. Disabled people, I welcome. For taking the intervention, I appreciate the point that she is making around pace. She will know that I share the want to get money into people's hands as soon as possible, but she must appreciate that it would be easier for a system to take into consideration incomes if income-based benefits were also devolved. Does she support the overall devolution of the full social security system so that we do not have to keep asking the DWP for this data? I thank the member for that intervention and the member will know that I have said timing again that I think that this is about planning and proper co-operation between both Governments so that we get the data that we need and can deliver the benefits that we have to. Disabled people, carers, older people and women have been left in DWP administered system that is widely recognised as unfit for purpose. Now more than ever, as people are struggling to eat their homes and put food on the table, they need the Government to take responsibility for the powers that they hold and stop leaving them in Tory hands. The simple fact is that they are not doing this. The system is failing to meet people's needs and I worry that, in its current form, it will never be able to deliver the sort of vision that Scottish Labour has, where inequality is a thing of the past, where everyone has enough money to live on, can enjoy the right to work and have access to a social security system that is adequate, automated, based on human rights and there when you need it. The reality is that we know we are near achieving that vision and I do not think that we are even on the path to it. I acknowledge that some work has been impacted by the pandemic but that does not explain all the delays nor does it excuse the fact that the Government has failed to make any progress at all on so many benefits that it has power over. Instead, it has handed those back to the DWP and it is spending huge swathes of cash doing so. Half the benefits that we should have control over are still administered elsewhere. It is disappointing. Take adult disability payment for example. The SNP could have made real changes by removing the 20m rule and the 50% rule, recognising that those are arbitrary numbers allowing for no recognition of fluctuating conditions. It has said that it must prioritise safe and secure transfer first, but it promised disabled people radical change seven years ago. It is getting tired of waiting. It is frustrated that it has taken years for all the eligible kids to get Scottish child payment and that uptake is still not what it should be. It is also frustrated that, when the SNP were challenged on that, it would not accept responsibility for not planning on it, instead saying that the UK Government did not give the data to it. However, the then Secretary of State confirmed in committee that it did not ask for it. There are countless ways that I could criticise the DWP, and if I had more time I would, but they cannot be blamed for not giving the Scottish Government data that it did not ask for. In the same vein, I understand that DWP data sharing is also one of the barriers to automating local authority administered benefits. As it stands, local authorities have access to real-time income data from the DWP in order to access eligibility for council tax reduction, but that data has been shared with the explicit agreement that it must only be used for that purpose, meaning that it cannot be used to reach out to those who should be eligible for best start grants, school uniform grants or free school meals. One way around that would, of course, be to level eligibility. I will. I welcome that, by the end of this month, eligible families in receipt of the Scottish child payment will receive the best start grant early learning payment and the best start school age prepay payment without the need to apply. I thank the member for that intervention. As I said in the earlier part of my speech, about 30 per cent of those young people do not get that, so I welcome it. We really need both Governments to start working together and delivering for the people of Scotland instead of pointing fingers or, in the case of the two who are sitting on their hands. We cannot understate the opportunity. We had to create a whole new system from the bottom up. It was a key moment, and it feels increasingly like the SNP failed to meet it. Can I get my time back, please, to get to the side of the screen? Yes, thank you. I just wonder if, in amongst her unfriended criticisms on timelines, Ms Duncan Glancy would like to acknowledge that the only reason that we have powers over social security in this Parliament is because of the SNP. In fact, it was her party, along with colleagues, who opposed more powers for the Scottish Parliament in years past. The minister is somewhat rewriting history in that statement. We cannot underestimate the opportunity that we had. It was a key moment, and it feels increasingly like the SNP has failed to meet that. Not just, but in some areas, and I say this, although I also recognise areas where they have improved. The situation in some places has regressed. There is little good about the DWP, but some of the things that they do get right seem to be the areas in which the Scottish Government has decided to diverge. For example, Social Security Scotland, unlike DWP, refused to accept signed mandates via email, something that I discovered because it created barriers for one of my constituents. Last week, it was confirmed to my committee that there are currently no referral pathways in place at Social Security Scotland, allowing direct referrals from agencies such as schools or GPs. That is a huge missed opportunity and a problem that the Government must urgently seek to address. Low uptake could easily be addressed by automation, but it could also be addressed by proper referral mechanisms. Focusing on fancy comms in social media puts the burden on the person to apply. It is expensive and is not really leading to enough uptake, so the Government should instead be investing in people, intensive referral mechanisms and smart IT that can automate payments, identify minimum standards and recognise when people fall below it. If we look at the figures on redetermination requests, it is clear that Social Security Scotland is not getting the decision-making right. For some benefits, well over half of those are approved, meaning that the system has forged people through additional hurdles when they should have been awarded payments in the first place. That is not the system that we were promised with redetermination rates. It is not the system that the SNP has told us that they are delivering. There is still time to fix that and there are still opportunities that lie ahead in the benefits that the SNP has not yet started to work on. However, things need to change and they need to do so quickly. For that to happen, the Government must be laser focused on delivering the social security system that it promised. I should say at the start of my speech that I have referred people to my members of interest where I am with the seat of PIP and hopefully I don't have the disability to live in a lounge at some point. That is now on the record. I am also in receipt of PIP and I refer members to my register of interest to apologies. Can glancy? That is also on the record. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Scottish Liberal Democrats have tried to work constructively with the Scottish Government on its welfare responsibilities and we will continue to do so. We will remain constructively critical where improvement is needed. In April, my colleague Willie Rennie highlighted the Scottish Government's decision to continue disability benefits under DWP administration, leaving recipients of the adult disability payment daily living component enhanced rate worse off by £135.20 per year than it would have been. Being too slow off the mark to use the full extent of the powers that the Scottish Government has under devolution is a failure for benefit recipients across Scotland. Scottish Liberal Democrats support the welfare system based on dignity, fairness and respect and I echo the sentiment that there should not be any stigma around accessing benefits for people entitled to them. Simplifying and automating benefits payments is welcome and it helps to break down stigma that unhelpfully surrounds benefit uptake for those entitled, but extending automation to the best start grant early learning and school age payments could have been done sooner. The motion expressly states that the best start grant early learning and school age payments will be automated by the end of November 2022 this month and I'm sure that this will be welcomed by families across Scotland as I welcome it, but they could have benefited sooner. The cost of living crisis will be getting tougher as we enter the winter and our usual cold weather along with eye-watering energy bills. The UK Government is warming us up to tighter budgets from tax rises and public spending cuts. Every penny in household budgets really will be stretched and relied on heavily this winter and I welcome the launch of an independent advocacy service and welfare rights advisers to be placed in up to 180 general practitioners surgeries in Scotland's most deprived areas as well as rural areas. There should be an effective publicity campaign to make sure people are aware of the service. I was going to ask the minister to provide information on the plans to publicise this but I noted what he said earlier and leaflets are fine but will there be a national advertising campaign and in what form might that take? This service and the welfare rights advisers will be a valuable resource for communities across the country and too often there's simply not enough known about what is available for those on restricted budgets. Online information can be interpreted differently and this can convince people that they can't apply for a benefit when actually the opposite is true and they are eligible. Our rural areas are often home to some of the most deprived communities and so any innovation to break this should be commended for its intent. However, I would like to put on record my concerns that this resource could be slowly eroded with public service cuts putting the enormous burden back on our fantastic and valuable Citizens Advice Bureau across the country. Citizens Advice services make representations for people across Scotland helping them with benefit queries, housing issues, energy costs and much more. The Deputy First Minister outlined adjustments to the Scottish Government's budget yesterday and will now see slower growth in the mental health budget provision and this will impact on some of the most vulnerable in our society. There will always be more work to do to improve the take-up with entitlements. Work will need to continue to ensure that estimates of the number of people eligible are as accurate as possible and that accurate uptake figures are generated. These figures and the reasons behind them will need to be continually updated and analysed to ensure that all those who are eligible for a benefit are receiving their full entitlement. Thank you very much. Ms Wishart, we now move to the open debate. I would advise colleagues that we are pretty much exhausted any time we had in hand, so any interventions will need to be accommodated in your speaking time allowance. With that, I call Natalie Dawn to be followed by Shan Dowey for up to six minutes, Ms Dawn. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. The motion before us that we're debating today is truly a positive one and I continue to be proud of the social security system that we are building here in Scotland. We've built a system that is kind, fairer and more progressive than anything that we've seen before, a system that does not treat social security as a burden on the state but that actively encourages people to take exactly what they are entitled to. I wholeheartedly believe that social security is a significant investment in the people of Scotland. Let's imagine for a minute that the benefit powers that have been devolved were still under the DWP system. There would be no Scottish child payment for a start. Many families, children and people with disabilities all across Scotland would still be stuck under the degrading, stale and discriminatory DWP system. I'm actually really disappointed with the amendments that we have in front of us today. While there's always more to do and scrutiny is absolutely essential, it would be really easy to sit in the opposition benches and cast negativity and doubt upon every positive move that this Government makes to improve people's lives. It's interesting that you start off speaking about the fact that you wish people weren't in the system of the DWP system, which is so incompatient. I then can't understand why members on this side want to push the Government to do as much as they can to get the systems in place as quickly as possible. I wonder if you could just acknowledge that point. I thank the member for that intervention. I actually never said that I can't understand why you're pushing us to do more. I actually did say that there is always more to do. I just find that the negativity that comes from the opposition benches is often overlooked the really positive steps that the Government are making. So I want to move on to what is an important point in line with the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecast. The Scottish Government is committing £4.2 billion in benefit expenditure this year forecast to rise to £6.5 billion in 2627. To put that into perspective, that is more than £460 million above the level of funding forecast to be received from the UK Government in 2020-23, and it's then anticipated that that will increase to £1.3 billion by 2627, still a massive shortfall. I think that those figures show the divergence between the Scottish and the UK Governments. We're investing in our people, meanwhile the Tories are doing everything they can to put people off benefits. Rishi Sunak burying his head in the sand when it comes to raising benefits in line with inflation, scraping up every... Yes, I will, thanks. I'm grateful for the member for taking this intervention. At social justice committee we have heard again and again the fact that in Scotland this SNP green government currently has a £760 million black hole in future welfare policy payments by the end of this parliament. Where will that money come from and why do you think the finance secretary didn't touch upon that in the two statements that he's made to Parliament? Well, I think that the figures that I was relating to relate up to 2627, and I believe that we will be a flourishing independent country by that point, so I think that we'll have much more freedom on where to allocate our resources. No, I'm not going to take any more interventions that I'd like to make progress, thank you. So, scraping up every penny that they can from those that actually need it, it's actually shocking that a Conservative would even stand here in this Parliament and defend the crooks that are running things down in Westminster. Automation is an incredibly positive thing. Filling out form after form after form is trying, degrading and demoralising, so a system that works to simplify that is only going to help people. I think that that's one of the key points that sets this Government apart from the catastrophic DWP system. We recognise that there's still work to do to deliver the automation that we want to see, and that's why we're investing over 20 million over the next four years on the Social Security Independent Advocacy Service. That will ensure that people looking to claim what they are entitled to are given the support that they require in order to do so. Encouraging take-up, making it easier for people to get what they're entitled to, it all works towards reducing the stigma that exists around benefits. Stigma has been identified as one of the key barriers to the take-up of benefits, and the only way to reduce that within the system is to design it with input from the people who use it. Stigma exists within the system because it has been bred through it. I remember attending the job centre and making my claim for what at the time was jobseekers allowance and honestly feeling like a piece of dirt that someone had just scraped off their shoe. As a young teenager who left home under difficult circumstances, I needed support, not judgment, and it was not there. So I'm so happy that our social security system is taking a different route and evidence from claimants and people who've used the systems show a clear contrast in the way that people are treated. Not everyone can work, and that can be for a variety of different reasons. Not everyone can work full-time, not everyone can work regular hours, and over and above that, a person's circumstances can change at any point in life, which is why it is key that we have a robust and compassionate social security system in place to protect our citizens. So let's get down to the real issue here, because we can highlight the positive steps that the Scottish Government are taking all day long with just 15 per cent of welfare powers. Whilst the Scottish Government is actively encouraging benefit take-up and investing in social security, the UK Government welfare policies are deliberately penalising those that need it the most in our society. It's notable that the UK Government does not have its own comparable benefit take-up strategy, but not only is the UK Government shirking on its moral responsibilities to encourage benefit take-up, its welfare policies are actively harming people, causing poverty, destitution and hunger. It's actually embarrassing listening to members speak about the broad shoulders of the UK Government when that Government has imposed the two-child limit, the benefit cap, the removal of the £20 uplift and the continuation of the bedroom tax, which are just some of the aspects of the UK benefit system that have deliberately hurt people. Only with independence can we ensure that we have all the economic levers at our disposal to protect our social security budget from the absolute car crash that the Tories have made of our economy. You need to wind up now, Mr Thomas. And to protect ourselves from red Tories in the Labour branch office that bow to their masters down in London and will indeed overlook Scotland like they already have done for decades. I will wind up, I will wind up. Social security in Scotland is undergoing its biggest transformation in generations. With this comes many opportunities, but the journey is also not without its challenges. The system's success is essential for the wellbeing of hundreds of thousands of our fellow Scots and it is in the interests of all parties in this chamber to support the system where appropriate. As a member of the Public Audit Committee, the section 23 report about the progress of implementing the devolved benefits was one of the few positive reports that the committee has discussed over the past few months. The auditor general noted that the implementation of the new social security powers was going well, however, he drew the committee's attention to substantial risks that remain unaddressed. To look at the positives providing officer, Social Security Scotland now administers 12 benefits. As mentioned in the motion, we are now seeing automation of some of those benefits which is a welcome development. The child winter heating assistance is paid automatically based on entitlement and the carers allowance supplement payments are made automatically. In addition, by the end of the year the Scottish Government are aiming to award the best start grant, early learning payment and school age payment automatically to eligible families in receipt of the Scottish child payment and this is welcome news. But as I mentioned, new systems face challenges and Social Security Scotland is not immune to those. When giving evidence to the Public Audit Committee, the auditor general highlighted three substantial remaining risks including assessing relevant data, putting in place longer term digital solutions and getting operational staff in place. He went on to say that managing those effectively will be crucial. So I would like to use some of my time today to focus specifically on the issue of data collection and measuring outcomes. Lack of data is a problem that has been highlighted in numerous Audit Scotland reports. I believe that we can all agree across the chamber that without data it is near impossible to determine whether solutions are cost effective and are achieving the desired outcomes. It is the outcomes that we need to be looking at, otherwise it is like throwing money into the fire and those we are trying to help see no long-term benefit. As it stands, the baseline data is there to tell us how many of those entitled are claiming it, but it does not go much further than that. For example, less than one third of eligible Scots took up the job start payment. This is the lowest estimated take-up rate for any Scottish benefit. Only 73 per cent of those estimated to be eligible for the young carer grant claimed it in 2021-22, while only 66 per cent of eligible Scots received the funeral support payment. Why? The truth is we do not know. We need to find out why. What is stopping or preventing people from applying? We need to find out what the barriers are and remove them. We need to speak to people on the ground and find out what is happening. More importantly, we need to listen and take action. I did note in the minister's speech about the actions that he has taken and is going to write out to us, which would be appreciated. Poor data collection and evaluation are persistent problems that the Government regularly runs into. One policy area that has been negatively impacted by the absence of sufficient data collection and evaluation is tackling child poverty. As highlighted in Audit Scotland's tackling child poverty report, it is abundantly clear that a crucial barrier to developing sufficiently targeted policies is the absence of children and families with lived experience of poverty in the policy development stage. Again, that is something that I have noted in various topics and in various reports. We need to spend more time in the policy development stage, work out what it is that we want to achieve, listen to stakeholders and put in timescales, targets and measurements for outcomes. We should be using every tool at our disposal to understand why there is only partial uptake of some benefits and whether it is even delivering the desired outcomes. A system that does not listen to the people it sets out to help is simply unsustainable. It requires two-way communication. In fact, a key recommendation of the tackling child poverty report includes working with stakeholders such as the local government, the third sector, COSLA and those with lived experience of poverty to set out how actions will be delivered, monitored and how their impact is evaluated. I would like to reiterate that no matter how much or how little progress has been made, if the Scottish Government truly wants to build a system that works for Scotland, then the data must capture a detailed picture of its workings, its impact with stakeholder involvement and weave throughout its operation. Given the ever-changing nature of the external environment, the system must be flexible, it must be adaptable to change and it must be done with the input of stakeholders. I understand that this is not a registrable interest, but in the interests of transparency and as other colleagues have indicated the same, I am now in receipt of adult disability payment. I have been really happy to see the efforts made by the Scottish Government to make applying for and receiving new Scottish benefits as easy and accessible as possible. Just last week, I noticed a sponsored column in my local newspaper, The Inverness Courier, directing people to the Scottish Government's cost of living support page, gov.scot.com, and the next morning a fancy online graphic popped up, sponsored on to my Facebook home feed, promoting the same. It was great to hear the Minister talk earlier about the translation efforts and the leaflet campaigning that is going on as well. Effort and money are being put in by the Government not to gatekeep and confuse, but to reach out to people and make them aware of what they might be entitled to. Ensuring that people can access the support that they need is a model and legal duty, so it should not be surprising or refreshing that this is happening, but to those of us with experience of trying to deal with the DWP, it really, really is. Visiting the headquarters in Dundee remains a highlight of my time as an MSP so far, and on Jeremy Balfour's earlier point about regional delivery, following round robins from the Minister and the Agency, I have been in touch with the relationship lead for Shetland, Orkney, Murray and the Highlands, and I am looking forward to my visit to the local delivery team in Inverness later this month. I encourage MSPs of every party to make sure that they are doing all they can to get information about the Scottish support to their constituents. I think that it is right that today's motion focuses on progress. It means that we can recognise that we have come a long way and also that there is more to come. Nobody is claiming that the system is now complete and as good as it will ever be. I have a lot of sympathy with Labour and my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy's asks and I am sure that they are being put forward in good faith, but I think that we have to recognise that going too fast risks the safe and secure takeover that the Scottish Government has prioritised. Automation is complex and I do not think that it is unreasonable to acknowledge that complexity and for the Scottish Government to ensure that it is getting things right the first time. The progress on automation has been impressive and welcome. Cares allowance supplement is automatically given to those receiving carers allowance. Child winter heating assistance is automatically paid to those with qualifying benefits. Payments of the best art grant early learning and school age payments will be added to this list of automatic payments by the end of this month is extremely welcome news. There seems to be extremely welcome news just about every day at the moment. Doubling the fuel and security fund, doubling the children's bridging payment and £1.4 million for islanders with higher energy costs, which will mean so much to so many in my region. Those new systems being built by Social Security Scotland are fantastic. A world away from White Hall's computer says no latitude and claims that payments can't be increased because of limitations in the software. What does hold us back though are the very limited fiscal powers in place here. If we cannot borrow and we cannot overspend, we cannot react to crises. Whatever we do with the 30 per cent ish of social security powers that we have here, our constituents are still subject to the humiliating and degrading treatment if they need universal credit or another benefit that is still administered by the DWP. The punitive approach does absolutely no good in tackling the massive stigma that still exists around social security. That is something that we have to keep in mind here. Even those who are entitled to help and getting some may not be comfortable seeking out further help. Regardless of how well automated the system is, tackling the stigma will still be a worthwhile endeavour. To automate top-ups, people still have to be in receipt of the passporting benefit. We need to get to a place where nobody is ashamed or afraid to ask for basic help. It's interesting that the Tories have focused on data collection in their amendment. I wonder if their members think that it's okay that the DWP repeatedly refuses to publish the data that it collects. A committee in Westminster actually had to use special powers to publish a DWP report on disabled people's experience of its benefit system. We can't compare the over 90 per cent satisfaction rate of clients of Social Security Scotland with the DWPs because they haven't published those figures in years. The Tories do not have a better strategy for social security. They don't have a strategy at all beyond criticising the Scottish Government. While the SNP focused on increasing benefit uptake, the Tory Government down south, I will. Miles Briggs is grateful that she says that the Conservatives are criticising. She will be fully aware of the Social Justice Committee, which we are both members of, and the Finance Committee are raising these very concerns with ministers. I think that that's important to put that on the record. Emma Roddick. I think that there are ways to raise concerns on the Social Security Committee does great work, I think, as one of its members in scrutinising, but I do think that the hypocrisy in the amendment was worth pointing out that the Tory Government down south has decided to increase the threshold that people actively have to search for work in before being sanctioned. They focused on taking benefits away during a cost of living crisis for those with the least. CPAC told the Social Justice and Social Security Committee that we have evidence that strict conditionality does not help people to find better jobs, better paid jobs or more hours. In fact, poverty in itself is a barrier to people being employed. So not only is the approach down south cruel, it's ineffective, it does not work. So much so that the DWP again won't publish data on just how bad it is, which is why, although both Governments working together are necessary in this setup, we cannot put politics aside. Political ideology is what determines whether a person or a party believes in spending money or not, prioritises people helping people or funneling money to those who already have more than they can use, moves money around in the budget to increase the Scottish child payment or to increase bankers' bonuses. Politics matters, is all of our jobs. We cannot leave politics at the door to discuss social security because my idea of what a social security system would look like with dignity, fairness and respect at its heart is extremely different to that of the Tories. Thank you. I am sorry particularly for those that are taking interventions to still keep you to your six minutes, but we do have no time in hand with that. I call Pauline McNeill to be followed by Paul MacLennan up to six minutes, Ms McNeill. Thank you. With more than one in ten not claiming child benefit, child payment, one in three not applying for funeral support, which is quite concerning, and only 29 per cent claiming job support, we can see that we've got a huge job to do to make sure that people claim the benefits they're eligible for. I'm sure we'll agree on that. During my time as deputy convener of social security committee, I recognised that many families entitled to vital financial support that they were not claiming, and at the time I championed that for that reason. In fact, I'm sure that the members opposite will give Scottish Labour some credit for the work that we did in the early years of the creation of the social security system. We also championed a social security system in Scotland that was fit for purpose, and on that and the SNP, and even some of the Conservative members, we were at one in Mark Griffin, put essential elements into the act, which were really, really important, and some of the things I want to talk about myself about the importance of automating social security benefits. I moved our Labour amendment to the Child Poverty Act 2017, supporting local authorities, and asked them to consider the automatic payment of benefits and to support that. Also, a duty on the Social Security Agency, which I've not heard much about, that on application of one benefit, the Social Security Agency in Scotland has a duty to check if you have other benefits. These are the kind of distribution things in the Scottish system that are meant to set it apart from the Westminster system, so we need to see evidence that that is being used. I convened a round table in 2018 on the question of automation to explore the options that are needed to be looking at, particularly for the figures that we've looked at today. I agree with Emma Roddick that it's not a simple thing to do, but it's one that we've got to be very ambitious. I'm fully content with the Scottish Labour amendment. It really asks the Government to be more ambitious around that, because we're in 2022 now, four years later. The round table that I conducted brought together local authorities, anti-poverty campaigners, as well as other members, and the then Minister, Jeane Freeman, who was also very keen on that idea when we discussed the automation of benefits such as free school meals, school clothing grant, which helped to reduce the number of children living in poverty. In Glasgow, which is the authority that I'm Pam Nung and Glancy represent, it has been very, very good on this, and it's definitely worth looking at a three and a half thousand children where eligible for free school meals were not registered for them and they were not accessing this important benefit. I think that that's the situation right across the country. Importantly, as Noam has mentioned so far, single parents in particular are one of the groups who don't apply for eligible benefits, just because of the very nature of being a single parent means filling in forums is not the thing that's first on your agenda. There's many many reasons why automation of benefits are really important. In fact, Glasgow Torantial Inclusion department talked about when they did the automation of the school clothing grant that people were phoning up saying, I've got this check for £200, I think there's been a mistake, unless you know this is money you're entitled to. So you can see the change that that can make to people's lives. Pam Nung and Glancy is also right to mention the issue of redetermination, another issue that was meant to set apart the Scottish system from Westminster that we do differently. I confess to the minister, I'm a wee bit out of touch with this so feel free to intervene in me, but the idea behind this was that we would get it right first time. So we'd see less people having to appeal and they'd make the appeal system easier for people. If the Government can't demonstrate that we've got this right in 2022, I'd like to think you put your hand up and say, well four years on, we haven't got that right, I'm happy to take an intervention. I've taken an intervention on this point and again Pam Duncan Glancy for raising it. I would just re-emphasise to Parliament that the points Pam Duncan Glancy made around redeterminations on child disability payments is not a situation that I recognise and not something that's been brought to my attention when I've discussed with my officials on child disability payments. So I think let's all look at this carefully and lays together. Pauli McNeill. I'm pleased about that answer and I'm sure Pam Duncan Glancy is too because a lot of time was spent around this provision at the time and also there's also further provision in there that should you lose your redetermination all the paperwork for your appeal will automatically be sent to the tribe, you know, again another way of helping people make that application for their appeal. So lots of things that set our social security system aside. But we all already know that 104,000 children at under six are currently getting the Scottish child payment and we know that given the government's very welcome announcement to extend this could be an additional 300,000 children could be eligible and with only 87% uptake of that we must find why the rest of them are not applying for that benefit and again that's why automation of those benefits are really important. The resolution foundation suggested that the Scottish child poverty sadly could rise by 29% by 2023-24. So I think we're all agreed. There has never been a more important time for us to get this right to make sure that we can do more to make sure that people have got the benefits that they're entitled to. We've all used the term the cost of living crisis and an ocular sounding phase in many ways where the grim reality behind that lies hungry children, anxious families and mothers go without basic essentials. We can change that. Higher levels of automation would ensure that families would receive the support that they're entitled to. I do welcome the progress that has been made and I want to say that but I think four years on I would ask ministers to think very carefully what else can be done. One of the issues is about data sharing and that's one of the complex areas that I recognise that we must do better. We can do better except to Scottish ministers to be more ambitious and I'm happy to support the Labour amendment tonight. Thank you, Ms McNeill. I now call Paul MacLennan to be followed by Maggie Chapman. Can I just remind members who've made an intervention or haven't pressed their buttons and are expecting to speak to check that they have pressed their buttons and with that Paul MacLennan up to six minutes please. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. As a member of the social justice and social security committee, I'm delighted to be speaking in the debate this afternoon and supporting the Scottish Government motion. It's an important issue that merits the debate this afternoon. As the motion says, the positive impact that the existing automation of Scottish security payments is having is very welcome, including ensuring that the most eligible people receive the child winter heating assistance and carers allowance supplement without needing to apply. We've also heard during the bit obviously it's very welcome the proposal to automate the best start grant early learning payment and the best start grant the school age payment for eligible families. We just discussed that in the committee a few weeks ago. The Scottish Government also intends continuing exploring opportunities for further automation and we've heard the minister talk about that. Looking at opportunities to ensure more people get the benefits that they are entitled to, which of course is essentially important at this time of cost of living crisis. The committee again has discussed this with the minister in detail. Uptake of benefits is also key at this time. The Scottish Government has launched a one-stop shop, the new cost of living website, and we heard Emma Rudd uptick about that, Ella Renn. Of course, we have a unique level of support in Scotland such as the Scottish Child Payment. The Scottish Government also decided to increase eight Scottish benefits by 6 per cent in April 2022, as against 3 per cent by the UK Government. The UK Government has to immediately commit to raising benefits online with inflation. If they choose not to do so, they will be responsible for pushing 200,000 children into poverty, and that's according to research from a child poverty action group. The Tory UK Government is more focused on sanctioning rather than supporting people. The number of sanctions issued against universal credit claims in Scotland has almost doubled in the last year. That demonstrates a fundamental issue with the DWP's attitude towards low incomes, preventing vulnerable families from receiving the social security that they are entitled to at a time when they need it most. That's a political choice. Natalie Dawn mentioned about the two-child limit and bedroom tax among others. Again, that's a political choice. In comparison, in line with the Scottish Fiscal Commission's forecast, the Scottish Government is committing to £4.2 billion to social security spending, and that will rise to £6.5 billion in 2026-2027. That additional spending is needed as a Scottish child payment and to fund a different and improved approach between social security Scotland's adult disability payment and PIP, and on borrowing powers. Social security is demand-led service. We need the ability to react to an increase in demand now. I can understand the Tory's position and not want to increase borrowing powers, but Labour, I can't understand their position at all. Not supporting giving more powers to Scotland to tackle issues is a position that I can't understand in any way, shape or form. The child poverty action group sent a briefing for this debate and it highlighted to the committee that the child poverty action group sent a briefing for this debate, and it highlighted three key areas. Pauline McNeill mentioned data sharing, and I think that's key. That's the first step to automation of low-income Scottish social security benefits and other low-income payments such as those that are delivered by local authorities. Aligning the eligibility criteria for low-income benefits would make automation and promotion of take-up easier. Again, that's been discussed at the committee. Universal payments have higher rates of take-up and have a vital role to play in tackling poverty. I want to touch on some of the points that CPI raised today—the importance of data. CPI welcomed the ambition of the Scottish Government to automate payments to low-income households. However, it raised the issues of access to data, stating that data sharing is key to automation. It also helps to make decisions about spending and resource allocation to target support at those families that we most need and support. I know that the minister has picked this up in the minister's committee before, but can I ask him to pick this up in closing as well? In regard to take-up of Scottish child payment, we should be aiming for 100 per cent take-up of Scottish child payment and other low-income benefits. Local authorities have individual household level data on many low-income families, and they are already delivering better supports to those families on behalf of the Scottish Government. Social Security Scotland has access to DWP and HRM at RC data to allow for processing of Scottish child payment claims. Data sharing arrangements can be complex, but if solutions can be found, that would allow identification of families that may be entitled to additional supports such as the Scottish child payment and school clothing grants. I know that the Scottish Government is looking at that, and I know that there is a complex situation around that. In conclusion, CPI welcomed the commitment in best start, bright futures to bring the best start food in line with the criteria of best start grants and the Scottish child payment. That will make automation within Social Security Scotland easier. In committee discussions, members raised the benefits of aligning the entitlement criteria for other payments. For example, the entitlement of school clothing grants and free school meals could be aligned with the Scottish child payment. That will make automation easier, simplify, take-up messaging and ensure more. The Scottish Government is unique in its support for the most vulnerable in our society. Automation of existing future benefits will make take-up easier and support even more. I joined my parliamentary colleagues this afternoon in welcoming the work that has gone into the automation of Scotland's social security payments, the proposals to extend this further and the acknowledgement that there is more work to do. Those payments are vital to the wellbeing of people across Scotland, both in supporting their day-to-day expenses and at critical times, especially in the lives of young families. I also welcomed the work that has been done previously in the development of and over the last year in the implementation of the second benefit take-up strategy. The principles that underpin that strategy are worth reiterating, especially now when the existing challenges of child poverty and Covid recovery have been so heart-breakingly deepened by brutal food price rises, terrifying energy costs and Westminster policy, which swings between incompetence and outright cruelty. Those principles, focusing on real people and their actual needs, speaking and listening with clarity and sensitivity, reaching people where they are, not where we assume we'll find them, cooperating with those working for the same common good and learning both from successes and mistakes. These are principles we can usefully apply not only to social security but to all the issues we face as a parliament, a country and a world. The strategy also identifies barriers to the take-up of social security entitlements. One of those is access, the ways in which that can be so complex, so costly in terms of time, energy as well as money and the process itself acts as a wall instead of a doorway. That is a challenge to policy makers and to systems and one that can be addressed in part by the automation we are focusing upon today. Another barrier is lack of information and that too is an issue for those who make and those who implement policy not just at a national level but within local government and other agencies remembering and celebrating the crucial role of the third sector. But it is clear from evidence from other European countries that even with very slick and integrated systems such as Pam Duncan Glancy and others in the Chamber this afternoon have urged Social Security Scotland to develop, even with these systems, take-up remains below 100%. That is why the final barrier identified in the strategy matters and it involves us all, the complex, often hidden and deep-rooted social obstacles that still stand between so many people and fulfilment of their rights. The Scottish campaign on rights to social security, representing key organisations, has written wisely about this, about institutional stigma from official processes, social stigma from the attitudes of others and self-stigma, a person's own feeling that it is somehow shameful or negative to be receiving what they are entitled to. We know only too well the role that toxic media and poisonous politics have played in creating, extending and embedding this discourse of shame, of stigma, of othering and demonisation. We know how it interrelates with other forms of bigotry and prejudice, with other expressions of hate and hostility, not least that of the current Home Secretary just this week towards those seeking the protection of the Refugee Convention, a solemn obligation which it is her particular duty to uphold. It is one of our most serious responsibilities as members of this Parliament to challenge the language of stigma and exclusion and hate. We have a secondary responsibility as well to tell different stories based on evidence and experience of why and how social security supports and builds the common good, how it helps to create strong communities, thriving families and healthy, confident, informed and compassionate children, children who are ready to take their place in the society of the future, a future which will need them more than ever before. I think we have a third responsibility to think not only about how we talk about those in or at risk of poverty, but also how we talk about the rich. How does our language, philanthropist, wealth creator, business leader, our concepts of aspiration and success, the speed with which our doors are opened, reinforce hierarchies that are based on money, on privilege, on status, on profoundly ablest conceptions of competence and contribution? In a world where net subsidies to the fossil fuel industry were over four billion dollars in 2019, it is not social security recipients who are taking more than they give. In conclusion, I reiterate my welcome for these automation measures and for the ongoing work being done at many levels and in many sectors to improve rates of social security take-up, but this is not work only for policymakers, institutions and advice providers, vital though all of these actors are. If we are to build the fair, resilient, compassionate and creative Scotland we long for, we need to dig deep, to uncover and challenge the assumptions we have brought with us, to recognise and celebrate our interdependence. This is a work in progress. We need to keep going and we need to keep going better. Alexander Stewart I am pleased to be able to contribute to the debate as Scotland continues to develop its own distinct social security system. It remains my hope and the hope of those benches that this journey will result in a distinctly Scottish social security system that is effectively tailored to Scotland's needs. One year ago, the Parliament debated the Government's progress on implementing the social security powers as well as the Government's obligation to promote the uptake of those benefits. Since that time, the social security picture in Scotland has continued to develop. Most notably, we have now heard that adult disability payments have finally been introduced across all areas of Scotland. While I welcome the nationwide launch of this to be the 12th benefit to be delivered to the Social Security Scotland, it is disappointing that it has taken so long to get to this point. It also remains the case that it will be not until 2025 before this Government will finalise taking all the benefits and the powers that it has. While social security Scotland continues to grow its capacity, it has not been without its problems. The total cost has doubled compared to the original estimates and administration costs have quadrupled. It is disappointing that benefits, and despite the necessary cost of the agency, will no longer be any cheaper than the run by the DWP that it is designed to replace. Social Security Scotland lost nearly £65 billion to fraud and error last year. That is something that cannot be allowed to increase in the scale of the cast that grows significantly in the coming years. I am happy to do so. Just for clarity, those points are important. I am sure that the member meant to save $65 million, not $65 billion at that point, recognising the need for us to continue to reduce that figure through diligence. Alexander Stewart. I thank the minister for my clarification, and that is quite correct. It is simply satisfying the service that users under. It is also important that we look at the satisfaction levels that are taking place, because we have seen that there has been a 74 per cent increase in the number of complaints received in the last year alone. With 475,000 cases to administer from the disability ability payment alone by 2026, it is also important that the Scottish public receive the services that they rightly expect. I certainly hope that the agency does not face any further problems, because Social Security Scotland is to succeed. It will ensure that we all benefit across Scotland, and that is vitally important. More generally, several looking at the benefits will take-ups remain. For example, the social justice and social security committee highlighted the problems of lack of internet access that can create, which digital access requires when applying an order to ensure that you get the benefits. That is essential, and especially true to older people who are more likely to, than other groups, live in the remote rural areas, where internet access is more likely to be a problem. The issue was made worse by the fact that one in 10 people between the age of 65 and 79 are able to use a computer effectively, and that research was carried out by the CISN Advice Scotland. As with other vulnerable users, it is important that Social Security Scotland continues to engage with older people to ensure that the systems that they are properly tailored to their needs. It should also encourage, as the committee recommended, the increase of access at public places, where that might be a library or a community hub. Of course, automation is particularly key to integrating and increasing the benefits, and we want to see that in the eligibility. In a complex social security system, it remains the case that many families simply can't fully aware and are not fully aware of what they are entitled to. As such, anything that can simplify the process for ensuring payments to those who are entitled to them is to be welcomed. To descend the automation of payments such as the best start-up grant and schoolage payments will hopefully provide a significant boost to overall take-up of those benefits. There is no doubt that automation in certain payments can also have a benefit in areas, including processing speed and good value for taxpayers' money. We also need to look at some of the automated elements of universal credit, for example. It remains to be seen, however, whether such automation can be adopted more widely across the Scottish social security system. I urge the Scottish Government to take an evidence-based approach when assessing how effective that is going to work. When it comes to Scotland's social security system, any progress is always to be welcomed, but there is still a long way to go on this journey. With devolved social security spending projected to increase by £2.5 billion by 2027, it is important that we get this right at all levels. Going forward, it is important that Scotland's Government works constructively with the UK Government, and I am delighted to have heard from the minister today that that is the case. They want to ensure that there is good dialogue and discussion. It is equally important that we engage with service users to ensure that all benefits are being delivered as effectively as possible. In conclusion, the coming years will be crucial to getting the system right and ensuring that it is something that we all can be proud of, rather than a missed opportunity. To the end, it is much, much to be looked forward to, and I hope that the success of this journey, and I will continue, as others will, to ensure that this Government delivers the social security system that the Scottish public expects and deserves. I cannot speak in a debate on social security without highlighting my disgust at the hostile and cruel welfare system that is overseen by the Tories and Westminster. Their treatment of working people, their lack of compassion in helping those most in need and their intrusive and discriminatory assessments are representative of a Government not fit for office. I must say that the Scottish Conservatives are too responsible for the actions of the UK Government in relation to welfare and social security. Their lack of Opposition 2 and, in some cases, involvement in a Government that has overseen such brutal cuts to social security is shameless. However, as colleagues have said before, I must stress that we must work across this Parliament to tackle the impacts of the cost of living crisis to ensure that more people are not forced into poverty and to alleviate the pressures facing working families on a daily basis. The ambitions of the Scottish Government to automate payments to low-income households, whether delivered by Social Security Scotland or local authorities, is very welcome. The Scottish Government says that it is committed to delivering a transparent social security system and reporting annually on progress, and that is welcome. On the first publication, the Minister, Ben Macpherson, said, "...we are committed to making sure everyone gets the financial support they are entitled to and our benefit take-up strategy outlines how we are going to do this. We actively work to encourage take-up of social security benefits by promoting our 12 benefits, collaborating with various organisations and removing barriers to access. I do appreciate that the minister wants this to happen and I have said this in the chamber before. I don't doubt many of the Government-backed benchers want this to, but, as we have said in the debate today, we need to be a little bit more honest about what the movement is. If we are not honest, then how are we going to achieve the outcomes that the minister and the Government actually want? We must not ignore the fact that these measures are coming too late, too slowly for many and will not be enough for others. Indeed, we should also not ignore the fact that this is a powerful Parliament. It has the power, but this Government acts with no urgency and seems little ready, or perhaps it is little able, to use those powers. The Scottish Social Security Bill was passed in 2018, and we have heard that from across the chamber. Yet the Scottish Government is not expecting to take over full control of the system from the DWP until the end of 2025. In December 2021, the Scottish Government boasted that 2022 will be the biggest year yet in building a new social security system for Scotland, but now it seems that it has come to the chamber in this motion with a list of fancetypt predictions of what the Scottish benefit system will look like. I have acknowledged that it has made some progress. Of course, I acknowledge the benefits of the existing automation of Scottish social security payments that it has, including ensuring that the most eligible people receive the child winter heating assistance and careless allowance supplement without needing to apply for it. I believe that that is a good thing and is very welcome, as other speakers have said. However, the motion, as is often the case, seems so self-congratulatory. It needs the Government and the back benches to understand that there is some urgency. The system is not even nearly fully automated, and we have heard how important that is if we are to lift our communities out of poverty. Take-up of Scottish benefits is not complete. More than one in 10 people eligible do not claim the child payment. One in four people do not claim the young care grant. One in three people do not claim their funeral support payment. The Government has not mentioned any plans to automate the benefits for the largest case load, the Scottish child payment. There is an estimated case load of 304,000. There are 353,000 claims for adult disability payments. By comparison, the number of claims that have not been automated is just so tiny. It is important that we think critically both on the Opposition benches and on the Government benches, because I believe that they want to get better systems in place for people. It is important to note that over three quarters of devolved social security spending is still administered by the Department of Work and Pensions. As I mentioned to the member when she took her intervention, that is why the Labour benches are so keen to raise again and again what more can be done because we want that compassionate system that the Government and the back benches speak so much about. If the Scottish Government does not get a grip and all to the speed of change, child poverty targets will be missed and more children will grow up in poverty. Therefore, although I accept that any additional support for children and their families is welcome and I have welcomed the child payment before, there is a lot more urgency needed. It is time to keep moving forward to keep making progress to be more radical and to end child poverty and support families and those most in use using the powers you have, all of the powers you have at all the times that you can. That has to be the aim of this Parliament and I will continue to hold the Scottish Government to account on that. In concluding, I will be the first person to stand up to oppose Tory UK Government cuts to benefits and social security, but it is clear that in Scotland we can do more and we must do more. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I call Cogab Stewart, who is the final speaker in the open debate. We will then move to the wind-up speeches and I would then expect everybody who has participated in the debate to be present. Cogab Stewart, up to six minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Social security is itself a human right and essential to the realisation of other human rights. This statement on the face of the 2018 act affirms the Scottish Government's commitment to develop a benefits system that is accessible, efficient and with dignity, respect and fairness as its core. As we know, there are currently 12 individual benefits delivered by the Scottish Government to people across the country, seven of them new and unique to Scotland and all of them vital importance to those in receipt. We also know that the development of Scotland's social security system reflects the lived experience of users of the much criticised DWP systems. Having heard of the often callous and distressing way people feel when they are treated when engaging with the DWP, I am glad that the Scottish Government has taken an entirely different approach to administering and delivering benefits. People are supported at all stages and can request extra support. The application process includes the innovative local delivery service in every council area, which means that anyone applying for Scottish benefits can access direct support from an adviser. At the end of last year, more than 90 per cent of those responding to the Scottish Government's survey described their experience with Social Security Scotland as very good or good. However, it is clear that there is work to be done to reach 100 per cent take-up or close to it as we can get. Key among the means of achieving this is automation. Automation benefits dramatically improve the experience of eligible people who are removing the need for multiple applications. Along with campaigners, I welcome the imminent automation of the best start grant early learning payment and the best start grant school age payment. I urge the Government to move as swiftly as possible to further automate benefits in the interest of increasing uptake. The recent One Parent Families Scotland report, Living Without a Lifeline, acknowledged the importance of the Scottish child payment. The increase from £10 to £25 for each eligible child and its extension to all young people up to the age of 16 on 14 November will be welcomed by One Parent Families as it will be by all eligible families. Described as a game-changing benefit by John Dickie, director of child poverty action group, it is providing essential support at a time when the UK economy is in free fall and making life so difficult for so many people. It goes without saying that our goal must, of course, be a 100 per cent take-up for this benefit. I would ask the minister in his summing up to confirm whether a further round of invitations to apply will be sent to all families to coincide with the extension of the Scottish child payment. Can he also provide any detail on data gathering on behalf of Social Security Scotland to support benefit take-up? I would also ask him to confirm that thresholds for eligibility are reviewed regularly so that they keep pace with the reality of income and expenditure. Free school meals and school clothing grant do not lie within the remit of Social Security Scotland, however it would make great difference to those payments if they could be automated for those in receipt of universal credit and tax credits. I understand that the Cabinet Secretary for Education is acutely aware of this and is working with the UK Government on the provision of data to progress this, hopefully next year. I was pleased to welcome advice direct Scotland to Parliament today, supported with Scottish Government funding and based in my constituency of Glasgow Kelvin. They have powerful benefit calculator on their website where people can check what Scottish benefits they are entitled to, including passported benefits. I commend this calculator to my colleagues and their constituents and anyone struggling to check their entitlement can phone for friendly and helpful advice. In conclusion, Social Security Scotland is a work in progress. It is growing in terms of the number of benefits it delivers, the number of claimants it supports and the automation it facilitates. It is delivering well for all those who are already engaged with it. Its urgent task is to identify those who are not yet claiming what they are entitled to and I urge the Government to consider all practical means of achieving this. I am glad that this motion has been brought so that we can celebrate the successes so far and move the debate forward so that we can improve further. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Thank you very much indeed. Ms Stewart, you now move to the wind-up speeches. I'm disappointed to note, despite my earlier warning, that there are a couple of colleagues who participated in the debate who are not here. I will expect an explanation for that. I now call Fousal Choudhury for up to six minutes, Mr Choudhury. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It is a pleasure to close this debate for Scottish Labour. Once again, less than six months after the last part of themselves on the back over their delivery of Social Security benefits, we have been presented with another motion of self-congratulation from the Scottish Government. Once again, this motion does not represent the reality on the ground. Once again, the significant points of the cushion and the Audit Scotland report on Social Security Scotland go unanswered. My colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy has already noted the apparent lack of priority given to automation of social security. Moreover, she has highlighted the amount of benefits still being left administered by the DWP, which is surely nothing to congratulate the Scottish Government for if the entire point was to do it better themselves. The Scottish Labour amendment highlights many of this ongoing problem left out from the Scottish Government's motion. There are many problems waiting down the line for the delivery of Scottish Social Security benefit, but I want to focus on the so-called EGIL approach that the Scottish Government is overseeing in its IT system. The theory is that this allows Social Security Scotland to be adaptable to focus on, must have system for launch before building upon them later. These systems will be crucial for automation to work. But the Audit Scotland report in May made it clear that this approach has trade-offs. It says, and I quote, for Social Security Scotland to operate efficiently and effectively, sources will be needed over the longer term to continue systems development and replace temporary and manual processes. It continues, the scale of this is not fully known and will need to be planned for alongside other Government priorities. Presiding Officer, this remains a huge step in the dark by the Scottish Government. I'm running out of time, so I've got a lot to go through. What is the EGIL approach has produced so far is a minimum viable product to onboard the initial Social Security benefits. As we've heard, it has only automated to so far, and too many still rely on the DWP systems. What we do not know is how easily this can be scaled, how well a scaled up version will function, or crucially how much any of this will cost. We already know that IT costs for Scotland's social security system have already soared to more than 250 million from initial estimated of 39 million. Jeremy Welford noted this additional cost. When we on this benches raised these questions in May debate, there was no answer from the Scottish Government on any of them. I suspect this is because they do not have those answers. Orders Scotland certainly do not seem to think that they do. The consequence of this is that the Scottish people are being asked to assume much of this purely on faith. We need to again note the looming 760 million black hole in the budget of the Scottish social security benefit identified by Orders Scotland. We cannot take on faith alone such a large and important part of the functioning of our social security. The Scottish Labor amendment also noted the problem with take-up of the devolved benefits. As mentioned by my colleague Pauline McNeill, Pam Duncan Glancy rightly noted that this could be solved by automation, but has not yet been. The Minister noted in opening that the Scottish Labor amendments engaged in wishful thinking in suggesting automation had proceeded faster. Yet he also said that the Scottish Government is not quite where we want to be on the take-up of the benefit. Surely this then raises the question of why they have presented us with emotion declaring a job well done. Put simply, it is far too early for the Scottish Government to be congratulating itself on the matter of the devolved benefit. For this and many other reasons, I commend the Scottish Labor amendments as a dose of reality. I think it's important to recognise the context of today's debate and when it's taking place. I think the minister did indeed state this at the beginning, because the global cost of living crisis is impacting on the most economically vulnerable individuals and families across the UK, and that is why both of Scotland's Governments need to work to help address those pressures and support people through this period. That is why we called for and have supported targeted benefits being delivered by Social Security Scotland. It is also worth reflecting that, to date, £243 billion of support is being delivered by the UK Government and the Scottish Government together to focus direct support for the most vulnerable families in Scotland and across Britain. Emma Roddick. I thank the member for allowing me to speak. In the debate on Tuesday, he asked me to welcome one of the measures that he is speaking about—£324 to people on tax credits. Those have been denied to people with a sanction—£7,342, which are in Scotland. Does he welcome that? Miles Briggs. No, I think that that's where there's reviews built into the system to actually look at that, and I think that that's important. What is important is how that system is being reformed. In both the UK and here in Scotland, I welcome that, and that's the work in committee I want to take forward as well. Despite the SNP Government's motion for today's debate, it must be said that the establishment of Social Security Scotland has not been all plain sailing. As Jeremy Balfour stated, we are all fully aware that SNP ministers have had to hand back administrative roles around many of those payments to the Department for Work and Pensions, and I actually welcome the positive comments that the Minister at Committee has often made with regard to the relationship between these two organisations. They have to work together. We must make sure that they succeed in making our welfare system in our United Kingdom and here in Scotland work for everybody. It is worth reflecting very quickly. Minister, I thank the member for taking the intervention. I just urge the member to engage in any correspondence he has with the new DWP ministerial team in Westminster to encourage them to do the same. I'm absolutely happy to do that. But it is despite the many promises that we have seen, SNP ministers have not fully put in place our welfare system here in Scotland, which was promised ahead of the 2021 elections. Indeed, Audit Scotland continued to express concern around the challenging timescales regarding delivery of all those new devolved benefits. As I've stated previously and I'll state again today, it is in all of our interest to see Social Security Scotland succeed and see that organisation able to deliver efficient and cost-effective assessments and payment systems. It is the role of Opposition parties, I'm sorry, to tell SNP ministers to hold ministers to account on this, because we must focus on making sure that the delivery of Social Security Scotland is effective and the outcomes that we all want to see are indeed delivered. A few members highlighted some of the issues that I hope the minister has taken on board. Alexander Stewart made an important point with regard to the digital divide and why maybe people aren't taking up payments available. Pauline McNeill, I think, made an important point with regard to funeral support payments. Why is it, given how we plan and take forward a funeral, that 40 per cent of people entitled to that payment are not taking it up? It is a real issue, which I think ministers should have tackled by now. Sharon Derry also stated, as part of her public audit committee work, that the case around the Government making sure that they are efficiently looking at value for money for the taxpayer, I think that that is important. Both the Social Justice Committee and the Finance Committee of this Parliament have raised concerns with the Scottish Government over where currently over the system and data collection is not fully in place. Foisal Traderie said, and I think that this is important, around projected costs for Social Security Scotland and delivering our welfare system. They stand today at over £290 million. That equates to 10 per cent of total resources to deliver the payments compared to 6 per cent for the Department of Work and Pensions. Now, I know there is a projection for that to come in line, but we have had no data or opportunity to really see where we are and where that is on track, and I hope it is on track. I know from discussions with Social Security Scotland that that is a projection, but it is also something that we need to make sure that ministers are held to account. Today's debate is also an important opportunity, I think, to highlight the need for greater transparency. That is something all committees of this Parliament are asking for in highlighting what it Scotland states that implementation costs regarding the new devolved benefits have not been routinely reported on in the public domain, and I think that that needs to change and change quickly. That makes it impossible, if not difficult, for proper scrutiny, which all of us want to make sure takes place. In terms of some of the points that have been raised earlier as well, Social Security Scotland the Minister has highlighted 90 per cent satisfaction. That was as the benefit system has been rolled out. As we see more benefits being rolled out, I think that it is concerning to note that client complaints have increased by 74 per cent in the space of one year. Now, I note what the Minister said with regard to looking at the appeal system and redeterminations, and I welcome that. I think that that is important for us to really make sure why we are seeing rapid increases in complaints around Social Security Scotland. That is something that all of us want to see addressed. The Scottish Government needs to make clear that it is long-term vision for Social Security Scotland. What that is and lay out practical steps that it is taking to make sure that the body is more transparent and accessible to the public on the delivery of this new system. Finally, Presiding Officer, I think that one thing this debate has also brought forward when members are raising independence and what they want to see is that there is a key financial part of our Scottish public finances that no SNP member can get away from. That is simply two words and that is the Barnett formula. There is £8.5 billion of Scottish taxpayers' money we are spending because of the Barnett formula. I welcome that. I think that it is an important part of redistribution, but ministers and members of the SNP and Green parties cannot simply wish that away. It is the size of the NHS budget in Scotland. Independence would leave that £8.5 billion black hole, and honesty is something that we need to hear from SNP and Green members over what would be cut. One of the key things today's debate has brought is the future, and this week's announcements is the future around our public finances. We need to make sure that we are all working together to deliver social security Scotland and the payments to the people who desperately need it. I call on Ben Macpherson to wind up to nine minutes or so minister. Thank you Presiding Officer and to colleagues for an important debate in these serious times. Sharon Dowey, who made a very thoughtful and the majority of fair contribution, I thought made an important point at the beginning of her remarks where she said, it is in the interests of all parties to support social security Scotland and for us to work together in the service of our constituents to make sure that this service delivers for people, and particularly at this time. Important points were raised by Pauline McNeill and others around data sharing. I can just confirm that we continue to work with many parties, local authorities, the DWP and the HMRC, to improve data sharing, increase take-up, and that extends to our work on automation as well and will continue to do so in this time ahead. Colcab Stewart asked me some particular questions regarding thresholds. We do continue to keep them under review, and with regard to the fact that when the Scottish child payment is extended and uplifted, we will indeed be text messaging and emailing all current claimants to make them aware of the extra support that is available. That is demonstrative of the practical and proactive work that I set out in my opening statement and others have set out today that is under way in terms of promoting benefits in our communities. The Scottish Government, of course rightly and indeed in the 2018 act, is obligated to take a lead in that, and Beatrice Wishart raised a question around what specific engagement is the Scottish Government undertaking to promote benefits. I laid out in my opening remarks around the 12 paid for marketing campaigns that have been undertaken since October 2021, with a range of channels considering digital exclusion to promote our benefits on television through the radio print and digital as well. For example, when adult disability payment was launched across Scotland at the end of August, there were eight pieces of broadcast television and radio coverage across national and regional channels and 44 pieces of print and online, as well as individual engagement by organisations and MSPs to promote the benefits. Miles Briggs. I wondered what work has been done specifically with regard to funeral payments given the system, given how you plan, that 40 per cent of people are not looking at taking forward that. Poor in point, and what is encouraging is that the amount of support that people are getting through funeral support payment is much higher than it was under the previous UK benefit, and there is a lot of engagement with providers and relevant support organisations to encourage people to uptake that support. There is evaluative work going on, as we speak, based on the estimates that were published on Monday, and that is the data that Co-Cab Stewart talked about being so useful. The fact that we now have this estimated data, as was published on Monday for the first time, helps us in that analysis. I am happy to engage more with Mr Briggs, because he is right that we want to get the level of uptake for funeral support payment to a much higher level. I can confirm to Jeremy Balfour that we are in around 150 GP practices across Scotland, so that is happening. I am happy to pick that up further with him if he would like more details. On some of the wider points that were raised and the thematic issues that matter to us all, there has been a lot of discussion today. Alexander Stewart said that we want Social Security Scotland to be something that we can all be proud of. I am proud of Social Security Scotland. It is not perfect, but what it has achieved in its short existence since 2018 in terms of the thousands and thousands of people that it has helped and the way it has developed in a, with 21st century infrastructure and a proactive approach based on the values that we agreed as a Parliament is something to be proud of. That is why I find it so deeply unhelpful for members, especially those who are as well informed and well-intentioned as Jeremy Balfour, to call Social Security Scotland a mess. It is such an unjust characterisation of this organisation that is helping people every single day and populated by such well-motivated people. Jeremy Balfour I am grateful to the minister. I do not generally believe that I have used those words in my speech. My point was that, due to the Scottish Government, nothing to do with the agency that has been made the delays in delivering these benefits. However, please collect the record, I never called the agency a mess. The process of rolling out our delivery of devolved Scottish benefits and Social Security Scotland being that delivery agency is part of the same equation. Opposition members are absolutely right to hold the Government to account. However, when we are doing things well in Scotland, let us be honest about the challenges, but also honest about the achievements and about how that makes a difference for all the constituents that we serve. It is a success story. Fosal Trowdy raised the point around IT costs, but then also spoke in the sentences following that about how he wanted to see more expenditure. We have to get a degree of consistency and fair analysis when it comes to this question, because this is an agency that is at the beginning of its development, but it is going to be a really important organisation for delivering for all of our constituents, particularly this year, compared to years past, but then also in the decades ahead. We are investing and establishing really firm and effective foundations to do that. Carl Mochan and other Labour members talk about a sense of urgency. I can tell you that there is a deep sense of urgency within the ministerial team and within the civil service to do this as quickly as possible. It is also a sense of responsibility to do it right and to make sure that it is done in an effective way, not just for the short term, but to future-proof the service as well. It is a very successful delivery organisation. The Labour Party criticised the SNP, who, as I mentioned, is responsible for gaining the powers over social security here in Scotland. The Labour Party said, you have not done very much and it is just back patting. I am sorry, I will take that, because there are around 25,000 children here in Scotland who are getting 200 pounds through our child winter heating assistance. As a Scottish child payment that is helping people now, was £10 a week, now £20 a week going to be £25 a week from the 14th of November, and we have had a bridging payment effective roll-out to 140,000 households. This is a significant amount of investment that is helping people day in, day out in our constituencies. By the end of 2022, our five family payments could be worth up to £10,000 by the first child turn six and up to £9,700 for subsequent children. That is a significant difference and investment in our communities. Do not talk that down as if it is something that is not a remarkable achievement. £460 million is going to households above the block grant adjustment more than in any other part of the UK. Let us be really, really serious about this. We have done remarkable things with the powers that we have, and we have a lot more to do. We need, on all parts of these benches, to be thoughtful and realistic about the lessons from Social Security Scotland about how taking the right time to do things correctly enables good delivery. This is an example of that we can take learning from and we can take confidence from. I will end on what I hope is a point of consensus, because I hope that everybody votes for this motion because I have drafted it in a way to be consensual, because we all have a responsibility, whether it is through cost of living events in our constituencies, the social media that we engage in, the communications from our political parties, how we share things in our communities to get the word out. The Scottish Government is being proactive and showing leadership on driving benefit take-up and on increasing automation, but we all have a role to play. On 14 November, which is coming very soon, when the Scottish child payment is extended to under 16s and goes up to £25 a week, I want to see every single MSP in this chamber taking responsibility to amplify that in their communities, because that is what working together is all about. That is what making a difference is all about, and that is what this Government is absolutely focused on. I will close the debate and ask Members to support the motion in my name. That concludes the debate on progress, on the automation and take-up of Scottish social security benefits. It is now time to move on to the next item of business, and there are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first is that amendment 6572.1, in the name of Jeremy Balfour, which seeks to amend motion 6572, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on progress on the automation and take-up of Scottish social security benefits, be agreed. Are we all agreed? The Parliament is not agreed, therefore we will move to a vote. There will be a short suspension until our members to access digital voting.