 And of course, and my answer is always, well, yes, it absolutely can. This is why, and we, we use the same terminology is that these skills should be used for Jedi purposes only. And it's always about the intent behind those actions. That's what I say to people all the time. That's a difference between manipulation and influence is your intent. If I'm looking out just to get what I want, regardless of how you feel, that intent means that your feelings are probably going to get stomped on. But if I want to accomplish goal A, but I do care how you feel, which means it will adjust my methodology. Now I can do that in an influential way, not a manipulative way. And that difference really could change the way that you operate using these skills. And let's be honest, an objective, get in the building, get documents is a one time thing versus risk of reputation that happens when you use these skills to your advantage, to the disadvantage of others in a manipulative way. And that reputation can be ruined forever. So it is important to understand that, hey, it's great to understand how this can get you in the building, this can get you in that room, this can get you that password. But if that person is feeling dirty or that person on the date now feels manipulated by you, they're going to tell all their friends stay away from that person. They might even post online, hey, don't have anything to do with that person because the way you carried yourself. Now you brought up pretext and I want to talk about this because once you understand this, it's a really powerful concept and I want to get into a little bit of your preparation because on a lot of these missions, you're in a different role. Like for me and Johnny, of course, we'd love to walk into every room and win people over and sure many in our audience would love to schmooze with everyone in a networking environment or have that great first date. But you have an even more important objective that's like I can't not win this person over. I have to ensure that this person likes me. So let's talk about pretext in your mindset going into those situations where the stakes are so high. When we look at social engineering from a security perspective, like what I do for a living, so not everyday life, my goal is to make sure the person I'm interacting with has to think as little as possible. Because the minute someone jumps out of alpha mode into beta mode, their brain starts processing. Now they're going to start analyzing everything I say, everything I look like, everything I do. And they're going to say, does that make sense to what I believe to be the truth right now? And if it doesn't, I'm usually going to lose, right? So a really quick example. I have this woman that works for me, her name is Shelby. She's probably 5'1". She weighs 95 pounds. Literally, I can curl her. She's like tiny. If we're going to go break in a building together and let's make believe our pretext is going to be pest control, I have to be the boss. Now, it's not politically correct. It's a stinky answer, right? Because she's smarter than me. She's physically more attractive than me. She's everything better, right? So she should, in essence of hierarchy, be the boss. But reality is, is that if two of us walk in, tiny little female, big man, and she's the boss of a pest control company, they're going to start thinking. The minute they start thinking, they go, why is she the boss and not him? And now they're going to start analyzing the words we say, the things that we do, and we're going to get caught, right? So your pretext, in the case of my job, our pretext has to be something that will create the least amount of thinking possible. Which means I have to think about what I say, my clothing, any artifacts, like a clipboard or other tools that are involved. If I say I'm pest control, but I'm wearing a button-up shirt like this, they're going to go, wow, that's the nicest dress for a pest control guy, right? So I got to come with my khakis on and a blue shirt and a hat and a spray bottle and a clipboard. So when I say I'm pest control, they go, oh, that makes sense. And there's little thinking. So the pretext is not just the story that you're saying, but it's everything that supports the story to make sure that the target doesn't have to think much when you say your first few words. And there's nonverbal communication in that as well. Huge, huge. Because so imagine this, it's your first time. And this, you know, I'll use Shelby as an example. First time we're breaking the building together. She's nervous. I mean, terribly scared. Like what if we get caught? What if somebody pulls a gun? What if this, okay, great, you know what? Here's what you're going to do. You're going to use your fear as part of your pretext. Because if we go in all confident, but she has fear and fears like this, right? Eyes open, tense muscles. They start seeing that. They go, wait, this doesn't, they may not go nonverbally. She is incongruent. They don't know that. But their brain says, hey, this is not matching what I'm being told. And then they feel unsafe. So what we say is let's use this. How about when we go in, you kind of do the look down at your watch and you say, oh, man, we are running so late. Like, you know, the boss is going to be ticked. We are not going to get to the next appointment in 30 minutes. Now, when they see fear or nervousness or irritation, the excuse is that we're late, right? So now their brains can excuse the emotion that they see. And that makes perfect sense. Or what she did, which I thought was genius, is she was like, this guy won't let us eat lunch until we finish this job. And I'm starving because I miss breakfast. Now, anything they see, I'm the bad guy, right? I'm the jerk boss who won't let her eat, right? The lady in the elevator even said, you should feed this little girl. And I'm like, hey, listen, if she gets the job done, she can eat, right? I had to throw that one out. I'm like, thanks for warning me, Shelves, right? Like, terrible, you know, whatever. But I had to throw that one out there, right? But it's like, at least with that, how I could sit back and do any weird nonverbals that they see, they're excused away. So the pretext involves everything about you from verbal, nonverbal, everything in between to prove that you are who you say you are. So the person never has to think. And there's this momentum that's carrying through, right? So at the very beginning, our spidey senses are up. And you write in the book that there are four questions that we ask ourselves when we encounter a stranger. But once we start to move down that aisle, and if you've ever been on a used car lot, you'll find yourself sitting down in a chair talking price because there is this momentum. And when you understand the momentum, well, you can work it to your advantage. But what are those four questions that we're asking ourselves when you show up as pest control and I was not expecting you? Yeah, that's a great one. So first, who are you? And let's not make a mistake. This does not need to be your life story. The simple answer in this pretext is on pest control. What do you want? Again, it doesn't need to be long. I need to go spray the 15th floor. That's what I was hired for. Look, it says on my work order, right? How long will this take? This is a huge one because people want to know how long are you going to be involved in my life? So you're like, look, we've got another appointment in 45 minutes. So we're going to be in and out of here real quick, right? And last, are you a threat? Now, are you a threat gets proved in multiple ways because you can't walk up to someone and go, I'm not here to kill you. That is not a great way to do a pretext, right? I'm not here to steal anything, right? That is also terrible. That's called negating the frame. But your nonverbals, your facial expressions, and the way you approach all indicate threat or not. So if the security guard, let's say, as a tiny woman like Shelby, and I come fully front to let her hips facing and I'm standing over her, she's going to feel like, whoa, hey, man, this guy's big and he's too close. And now I make her feel threatening. But if I blade my hips away from her and I kind of hold my clipboard, so I'm kind of pointing and saying, oh, look, this is why I'm here. My work order says this. Now I'm telling her I'm not threatening. Once you answer those four questions in a very non-answerable, like you don't just say them, like when they're answered, the brain does something amazing. It makes this decision, our brainstem makes this decision to say, I trust this person. Once that is made, the neocortex does something that is fascinating. It only looks for proof that your decision you just made is right. It's the most flawed part of human nature that I'm like, why are we this way? I don't understand it, but it's just amazing to me because then it says, if you accomplish it, you build trust. Neocortex has just looked for reasons that he's trustworthy. Now if you screw it up, they're going to look for reasons that you're not trustworthy and you're going to have to work really hard. I was just going to say, it goes the other way as well and there's this idea that I use all the time called no mode. So if you're trying to work your magic and for whatever reason, you run into a roadblock and they go to no mode where you're not getting in or this is not working or this is not happening, they made that decision. They're stuck in that. There's no getting them out once they've made that decision. And any forcing of them or just trying to maneuver only makes them go to no mode even harder. They're true because they think about it. So you come up, let's say you answer two of the questions. I'm pest control and I want to go spray 15. So you answer those two. How long will you be here? Let's say you didn't do that right and you left them feeling a little threatened. Now they're in that mode where they're like, okay, I know that you say you're pest control, but you are really aggressive, man. Now for me to backpedal from that, I have to first explain, I have to understand if they don't say it, I have to try to understand what is the emotion they're expressing, which let's say I could pick up on fear. Then I have to explain the fear. Why would you have fear of me? And if I can do that, maybe there's a chance. So I'll give you an example of this. I used to wear, when pandemic first started, I thought it'd be funny. I had this mask that was the Hulk mouth, right? So and you know, I just thought it was funny and it's but it's like these gritting teeth that looks like the Hulk. And I'm walking in a grocery store and I'm looking down at this list my wife gave me. And I round a corner and I basically like bam into a tiny woman that was coming the other way. Now a lot of times I think and you guys have probably seen this and talk about this in your class. What guys do is like they don't step out of the way for a woman, right? So but I realized that I'm going to do that. I'm going to step out and I turned my hips and I turned and she looked up at me like this. Her eyes were wide. And I realized, oh man, not only did I just run into her, I'm six foot three. She's like five foot two. And I got this Hulk anger face. And I looked down at her and I said, man, I am like the dumbest bull in a china shop. I am so sorry. I said, then you look up and see this. You must think like I'm just on a rage pill. And she goes, yeah. And I'm like, I am so sorry. I said, look, I don't want to take this down and show you that I'm smiling because you know the pandemic and everything. But hey, why don't you go ahead? I'm really sorry. And she goes, thank you. And she walked away with a big smile. And now I wasn't trying to build a relationship with her. I don't know if she walked away and hated my guts. But I quickly took the fear that was on her face and dispelled it and let her know I'm not aggressive. I'm not raging. It was a dumb mistake. I was looking at my phone, even said that I said, oh man, I'm staring at this list from my wife and I just walked right into you like some kind of dumb bull in a china shop. Like letting her know I'm reading this from my wife, you know, like dumb husband kind of thing. And all of that made her, oh, she breathed. Her shoulders went down. I didn't see the fear in her eyes. And it was something that quick, just realizing again what we started off talking about what happened. I walked in, I have the mask on. I'm way bigger than her. I bumped into her. Normal guy is going to be like, get out of my way instead of moving out of her way. And now I needed to change everything about that dynamic to make her feel safe. And something that simple, 30 second interaction. And I feel like she left feeling better for having met me as opposed to afraid for her safety. Now you mentioned you swiveled your hips there. What was that nonverbal signal about? Where our feet and our hips point indicate where our interest is, right? So like right now I'm pointing at you guys, even though we're not in the physical space. But imagine if I did the whole podcast like this. I mean, this would be off-putting for you. And if you have video, if your listeners are watching, right now, even this 30 seconds, they're all going, what the hell I hate this? Because it's awkward because we're supposed to look at each other when we talk, right? So interest says, I'm supposed to be facing you. And if I don't face you, then your body and brain go, does he even care about being here, right? Which is why, look, I always tell people in meetings, if you have two monitors, put the camera on the monitor where you're going to be looking because it'd be bad if your pictures were over here because even this is weird, right? So our hips say to the person who's watching us, this is where your interest is. So when I bumped into her and now she's feeling fear, if I stayed facing her, what her brain is indicating is this guy is aggressive and he's interested in me and that aggression doesn't feel good right now. That interest doesn't feel good because of the aggression. So by pointing my hips away, I'm basically saying, hey, that little bit of aggression you just saw, that wasn't about you, I'm so sorry. I was just a dumb guy reading a list and I bumped into you, I'm really sorry. Please, please go right ahead. And it led her feel like there was nothing about you in this scenario. It was literally just an aloof person looking down at their phone. Now, blading the hips away gives her that comfort level. Taking that tension off of the interaction that just happened. Now, pretext, many in our audience aren't going to be pretending to be pest control. They're probably not breaking into buildings. But we can use pretext in very natural situations and you give it a great example in the book. Maybe you have an Android, you see someone that you want to talk to online with an iPhone, hey, I'm an Android user. I'd love to get your thoughts on iPhone. I'm thinking about switching. Pretext, right? You gave an opportunity and a reason that you're approaching someone who's on their phone, who's not interested, who's clearly looking down as to why you are singling them out for conversation. We can do this in very small ways that don't involve costumes and don't involve elaborate stories, but they again go a long way towards warming that person up to whatever the potential for conversation is. Well, I just wanted to add to that as well. When I was going through the book and the pretext part came up, and obviously, as AJ mentioned, our guys aren't going to be trying to hack into a bank. However, I always talk about having certain missions in your life. Maybe you have a romantic mission to get married, have a family. Maybe you have a career mission. Maybe you have a passion project mission. So this pretext idea comes in very handy there because now that you have this mission, maybe you're going to a networking event and there's certain people that you're going to want to meet. That mission now gives you the goal that is being set up, and now you can use the pretext to prepare yourself, to go into that networking event to make the most of it. So that gives our audience a bit of some insight there. And I think that's a good example. You know, one of the things that I would do often if I'm traveling and I want to interact with people, let's say I'm alone and I just want to have a conversation, I may be sitting at the bar in the hotel and I look at someone and I go, hey, what are you drinking? Is it good? And a lot of times people are like, yeah, I don't know, they name a drink. Now I order it, right? Now I've learned my lesson. I'll give you a couple of bad examples. I don't really like fruity sweet drinks. And I did that a couple of times without looking at what people were drinking and ended up having to drink something horrific. But, you know, so I usually look for someone who's like got a glass that looks like something I would enjoy. And I'm like, hey, what are you drinking? Is it good at the first time here? And they tell you, now when you first, you ask for their advice, which is very validating. Now if I order the thing that they say, I'm rewarding that validation by saying I trust you enough to actually spend my money on something you recommended. Then I get it and I drink it and I go, wow, this is good. Thank you. More validation. That right there builds rapport right away because of that. And now I can start a conversation with the person and all I did was get a drink that I wanted anyway, right? And so that's a pretext. The pretext could be, I want to start a conversation with this person and I'm going to order the same drink as them. And it's not a lie. It's not based in falsehood. It's not based in something that's malicious. I wanted to go to the bar and drink and I wanted to have a conversation with someone. This was a way of doing it as opposed to ordering my own drink, walking up to a complete stranger and saying, hey, do you want to talk? That's going to be weird. Most people are going to go, no, weirdo, right? Now they're going to walk away. So by doing it this way, you make it okay for their brain to lower that force field. You answer those four questions and now you can have a conversation. Now, naturally, some environments lower the force field to begin with. So you sitting at a bar a lot easier than on a busy street corner when someone appears in a rush. So environment plays a role in our pretexting. So that we understand that there are just certain moments where it doesn't matter all of this backstory that you have where people just aren't even going to give you that window of opportunity. It's not a conducive environment for that interaction. Yeah, I mean, think about it. If I'm on a street corner and I walk up to the same exact person, and I went, hey, tonight, when you're at the hotel, what are you going to drink? I'm curious. I'm going to be like, what? Like, why are you asking me this? And what do you mean at the hotel? Like, do you know what hotel I'm at? Like, all of a sudden, now they're all just thinking and you're a creep, right? You're not a guy who won't have a conversation with. The pretext has to match your location, the person, the environment, what's happening, right? So if it was a busy street corner, I might be something like, hey, excuse me, do you have a second? I'm lost. Do you know where like third and 27th is? You know, I may do something like that. And now they can say, oh, man, I'm too busy. Okay, no problem. Or yeah, hang on. Where's your phone? I'm like, I keep trying to use the GPS, but the skyscrapers keep stopping it. It's like, I'm all over the place, right? You know, and then they help, they stop and they help you. You're like, man, thank you so much. I asked like four people and people are just too busy in this city, but you're here really cool. Thank you. Hey, my name's Chris. You know, and now we have a small conversation with somebody. The pretext, that one wouldn't make sense sitting at the bar. The same way the drink one wouldn't make sense on a street corner. So you have to match your pretext with the environment and what's happening around you. Otherwise, like you said before, it just seems too odd and people feel uncomfortable with it. That time constraint, right? It's answering one of those questions that we all have. You know, a second, I can give you a second. Hey, do you have 30 minutes to fill out the survey? How many times have you walked by that person with the clipboard? And we've even had this in New York where we'd stop them and say, hey, change the time. If you're going to say five minutes, say five seconds, just to get me holding the clipboard. Once it's in my hands, I'm more likely to fill it out and go to five minutes. But if you're starting with a long time, I have no time for you. I'm not interested. I've done that too where I said to them, hey, guys, try this. Just try saying, do you have 15 to 30 seconds for a quick survey? Try that, because that's believable. But when you say, do you have five minutes for a survey? I'm like, I don't have five minutes for you, man. No, I'm out. You know? And I was like, I'm going to walk back here in about 30 minutes. I want you to tell me how that works, right? And I tell them, I give them like a homework assignment. I'll come walking back and from across the street, they'll be like, bro, that's amazing. And I'm like, yeah, there you go. There's your tip for the day. To go along with it, we used to do this experiment with our classes every week. Our clients would have to go on the Hollywood Boulevard and get their first impression from random strangers. And the random strangers had to write it into a notebook so they could get a glimpse of what their body language and demeanor was saying to other people. And of course, everyone was utterly terrified at first. And then they would start to get more comfortable the more they did it. And what people were writing went from shy, nervous, to brave, confident. And they start to feel very good about themselves. But what everyone had to do to engage with the people who were walking was all over the map. For those who were really nervous, they're trying to do everything but ask them to do the exercise. And they're like, excuse me. Can you help me? No, right? They're getting a lot of no's. But when they just said, hey, all I need is your first three words that would describe my first oppression, they're like, oh, I just got to write three words and you're going to leave me alone? Great, I'll do it all day. But it was just great watching everyone, how they were computing of how they were going to get this done. But a lot of times, and certainly in this example, the most straightforward way was the only way to get it done. But because they were so afraid, there were anything but going straightforward. You know what I find too, probably you found this in your classes, is that a lot of people like to judge how they think other people will react based on what they think they'll do. Like, I would never answer these questions, so no one will answer them. And I'm like, okay, now that you said that, you got it out of your system, I want you to trust me. I want you to go out tonight and try it anyway. And when they do, they come back and go, oh my God, that worked. I'm like, right, because not everyone is you sitting in a security class, right? They're not thinking that way. So, you know, just try it. The beliefs that they had that were shattered was just insurmountable. I mean, they went into it, believes ideas out the world of what was going to happen, and all of those were crushed. And so, when we got back, I was like, what did you learn? Well, I learned that everything that I thought was untrue. Good, now we have a great place to start. And it goes exactly into your prepare, which I believe the last E was ego, right? We needed to squash, get rid of that ego so that everyone would be able to start learning. Because all the ideas that they had was preventing them from moving forward. And that acronym, I always use this constant method of re-evaluation. You constantly have to evaluate where you are to adjust. Because also, what may work for me today, may not work for me in three months from now, or even next week, right? Things may change. My personality, attitude, moods, the people I'm dealing with, the location going from New York to LA, I'm going to meet wholly different people, right? So the pretext may not, they may not, they will not be able to stay the same. I have to adjust based on so many different factors. And if I just say, well, this pretext works for me, well, that worked for me in this moment, but it doesn't mean it's going to work forever. So you have to constantly adjust. Now, what also came up in that exercise is oftentimes we would find that the first flattering comment written down on a first impression, handsome, confident, bold, brave, often empowered them to take more action and do more of those exercises. But I think where many people falter in this area is they overuse flattery. And they think that if I just give compliments, hey, nice shirt, great watch, that I can start to get people like me and I can start building that rapport. And that actually works against you. So I'd love to talk about flattery when you think it's okay to use it and how you approach it in social engineering situations and then just actually trying to win friends. Yeah, I love this question. I really do. So I'm going to answer. I'm going to tell you a fail story, a time I failed so miserably. It was embarrassing. So I entered this building. I was really nervous. It was kind of new in the field. And this secretary who I was supposed to get bypassed, she had all these pictures of her family, her kids, her two daughters and her on her desk. And they're all facing out. So many of them. So I was like, okay, that means in my head, she's not embarrassed to people to see her family. She's very proud of her children and her. As I approach, I don't see any husband in the pictures. This is two, looks like two preteen daughters and her. And they're always on these vacations on a beach. Now, I don't know what was happening in my head, but I thought I'm going to try compliments, see. But my brain probably knew what was happening, but there was no way to stop it. My hand reached for a picture as I went up to the desk and she goes, hey, how can I help you? And the picture I grabbed just happened to be her to preteen daughters and bikinis. And I went, wow, they're beautiful. And as it's coming out, you know how like a cartoon, I'm like reaching for the words. I'm like, no words, please come back. No, don't leave my mouth words. And she does this. She sits back in her chair, eyes get wide. She takes the picture out of my hand and she goes, how can I help you? And I went, I forgot something in the car. I'll be right back. I never came back. I just got in the car and drove away, right? Here's the point I learned from that. Compliments, they have to be at the level of rapport that you presently have. See, just because I think that this woman is beautiful doesn't mean I have the right to tell her that. I don't have the right to tell her because my level of rapport with her may be complete stranger. And a complete stranger telling this woman that she's beautiful is not flattery. It's creepy, right? So at what level of rapport could a person tell another person that their two preteen daughters are beautiful? You better be really good friends, right? Some of my best friends can tell me that my daughter is beautiful. Other than that, I'm wondering why you're saying it, right? Because why are you interested in my daughter who's way younger than you, right? So unless we're best friends, that is not an appropriate compliment. So our rapport and level of relationship indicates what compliments can be given. And oftentimes what I find in my classes that people make mistakes at is they give compliments thinking that the bigger and the better the compliment, the more rapport will be built. It's the very opposite. If I walk up to a woman as a pretext in my job and I go, wow, you are stunningly beautiful. Even if she believes it, let's say she woke up this morning and she goes, wow, I am beautiful. I say it and she's like, what do you want? Because there's no reason why a stranger would walk up unless you want something. So rapport wasn't there. Where what I should have done with that woman, that very same as I should have said, wow, you have so many beautiful pictures of vacations. You know, I stink at vacation planning. It looks like you're great. What beach is this? Because this looks like my kids would have a great time here. And now I'm validating her vacation planning, her picture taking, not her children. And that level of compliment is okay when you're a stranger, not talking about her preteen daughters in bathing suits, right? So where you are in the stream of your relationship that dictates what compliments you can give. Again, going back to asking for advice and opinion, you're raising that person's status and you're creating a level of rapport that I already trust you in your opinion, which is why we always teach our clients that a better compliment is around a personality trait than anything external. Because external is anyone can use it and a lot of times, shady nefarious people are using it just the same. So to really stand out for the right reasons, hey, you're great at picking vacations. I'd love advice on where to plan the next family trip. It's going to be a much better received compliment than, hey, you're beautiful or I love your watch or great shoes, which are just so surface level and throw away in many of these situations. And the only time those things work, in my opinion, at least or what I've seen, and I can actually say this is even more than opinion, like let's use the watch one. And I don't know anything about watches. And I wear a plastic Fitbit, so I'm not a watch guy. But I have a friend who loves watches. Like if he can look across the room and he can tell you the brand name of watch you have that it's made from platinum the year it was made, like the special cog that's inside, he can even say, hey, does yours have the engraving on the back? Now, if someone did that, right, if you were wearing one of those special watches and somebody came up and went, hey, man, is that the Elite X4237 watch? Like, man, there's only 100 of those made on earth. That's a beautiful timepiece. Now you feel special, right? So now that kind of compliment is different because they actually sharing knowledge and that they know something unique, right? I had this amazing experience where I knew I was getting SE'd and it wasn't nefarious or malicious. I had an Audi S6. And anyone who likes Audi knows that when you get the S series that they use red calipers and silver mirrors, right? Those are what make them different. So if you're an Audi fan and you're driving down the road and you see they all look alike, but you see the silver mirrors and the red calipers, that's an S series. So that's the sport series, right? Well, I had this young man come out and he's like, whoa, was that the brand new S6? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I just actually got it. And he's like, yeah, this has like 454 horsepower, doesn't it? And I'm like, yeah, you know a lot about Audi. He's like, oh, man, this is my dream car. He goes, I'd love to have this car because I saw you pull in from down there and I saw the silver mirrors and I knew. I knew what it was right away and I had to come over, I can hear the engine. And I'm like, oh, that's cool, man. You know, fist bump and I'm walking away. And he's like, hey, you don't think I can just sit in it, do you? And now I'm like, oh, man, like I'm like saying to myself, oh, crap, this kid, like he's like, gotta be what, 18? And he just validated me. He knew everything about the car. He told me it was his dream. And now all he wants to do is sit in it. And I'm like, in my head, I'm going, say no, say no. But my heart's like, I can't, I can't do it. Don't be a jerk, Chris. I'm like, yeah, man, no problems. Well, I unlock it and he sits there and he's like, oh my God, the sheet forms around. He's saying all these things. He's like, hey, man, can I just start it? And I'm like, I am not giving this kid the key. But I'm like, yeah, I'll hold it Bluetooth. You know, bam, he starts it. And he's like, you know, revving. He's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, oh, it sounds so beautiful. I love this. And then that's it. He didn't do anything bad. He got out. He said, you made my year. He goes, when I'm a businessman like you, this is the car I'm going to own. I'm like, man, when you're my age, you're probably going to own a better car than this. But you know, keep up the good work. You're a cool young guy. Fist bump and he's gone. But I knew what was happening. But he wasn't superficial. He really did know about the car. He really did love the car. And it worked on me. I felt really special. The fact that I had this brand new S6 and he knew all about it, the horsepower, all the things, everything about it. Yeah. It was an interesting thing to watch it happening, know that it's happening and not being able to stop it. And this is a great transition because I do want to talk about using your knowledge to prevent and raise awareness around this is happening because a lot of what we talked about here definitely works for building friendships, winning people over. But in your line of work also gets you in the office building, gets you in the bank and out the back door. So with all the knowledge that you have, it sounds like in this instance, because it was a kid, I don't know exactly why, you were falling for it. But do you find yourself being more on edge and more aware of this in a way that prevents these interactions? Or do you fall into the same traps that we all do as humans around these skills? A good question because I think the answer is, is that we're all human. So I've sent 19 million fishing emails in my career, 19 million fishing emails, all legal, right? I fell for a fish, right? It happens. I'm not proud of it, but I'm an Amazon junkie, right? I am literally like I love Amazon. I would live on that side and never leave home if I didn't have to. And I got a fish that said one of my orders wouldn't be shipped to do with a client credit card and I clicked it. I tell everyone, every client I have, you open up a browser, you go to amazon.com, you log in, you check it. But I was stressed, I was running late for a flight, I wasn't thinking critically, and I clicked a link, right? So the saving grace was that when it happened, the minute it happened, I knew exactly what happened and I was able to fix it with no repercussions. So where I think there's a value in knowing this and why I tell people to know this is that even if you do end up falling for something, even if that does happen, the knowledge is gonna save you from long lasting repercussions, right? So you can stop a lot of the attacks, but you also could stop the after effects of any attacks that you did fall for. In addition, that this helps you realize when someone may be being malicious with you and not being real, right? So in the case of like, let's say dating or something, you may be sitting in a bar and someone comes up and starts flattering with you. I mean, this happened to me in Vegas, okay? In Vegas, this happened to me. I'm sitting at a bar. We know where this is going. I'm sitting at a bar at Caesar's Palace, right? And this unbelievably beautiful woman walks up to me and she's like, hey, what are you drinking? And I said, oh, whiskey. And she's like, is it good? I'm not really a whiskey drinker. I said, well, I'm a huge whiskey fan. So if you don't like it, you probably should get something else. God, I would hate you to waste your money. She goes, I trust you. Now she orders what I'm drinking, right? She gets it, she tastes it, he goes, oh, this is actually really good. And I'm thinking, well, okay, she likes it. That's cool. And then she's like, so you're here for the conference. Now, I think that's a great opening question because there's so many conferences in Vegas. And I just went and I didn't realize I'm falling for it. I'm like, yeah, I'm here for the conference. You too? She did not look like a security person, right? And she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm here for the conference. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. I said, yeah, well, you know, there's like 30,000 people here. So I haven't seen you yet. She's like, no, it's no big deal. She goes, it's just been a long day and I'm really stressed. So I wanted to come down here and get a drink. I'm glad it's quiet right now. And, you know, so we had a conversation for five minutes and all of a sudden she's like, so, hey, do you wanna like go to your room and maybe just relax a little? And I didn't understand the question. That's how dumb I am. I'm like, yeah, I'm about to go do that. And she's like, well, I can go with you. And I'm like, oh, no. I said, no, I'm married. I'm good, I'm fine. And she's like, well, you don't have to wear a ring. I said, oh, yeah. I said, I don't wear a ring on my finger a lot because I'm always, you know, I thought she was in security. I'm always breaking into places and stuff. She goes, you do what? I'm like, you know, like the social engineering brain. And I'm like, then I'm realizing she's not in that. Well, I'm like, oh my God, this is a prostitute. I'm falling, I'm like, I'm getting scammed here. Then all of a sudden all the things, and I'm like, hey, they have a nice chatting with you. I'm gonna go, right? And I just walked away, but I'm like, wow, that totally, I didn't fall for it. Nothing happened, but I fell for it, right? Well, this is where it gets important because people are going to use the tools that they have to get what they need. And if you are in their way and they have a tool to get you out of their way or to get you to do something that gets them closer to where they need to go, they're going to use it. This is why this is important to learn these things. It's much like with marketing. And anytime that I discuss body language and stuff, there's a lot of things that ties to marketing and you're gonna see something, an image, it's going to heighten your emotional state. So now you're engaged and it's gonna ask you to do something and then there's a call to action. It's all the same. And the people, when I bring this up and there's always people like, yeah, that kind of stuff doesn't work on me, then you've already been bought and sold a long time ago because you think you're above it. And this is the same thing. And if you know how these things work, well, then you can make better, much more informed decisions that are gonna be better for you then be run around by your nose because your emotions are leading you. And as we're talking here, we're talking about our poor and marketing. We're talking about enhancing emotions. It's all about emotions. When we're using appreciative statements, we're allowing people to feel good when we're making them an expert and asking them for advice, this is heightening their state. AJ and I were, we were in England, we were on a running a program where we're taking the guys out when we had gotten approached by two hustlers who were trying to roll us into a club. And the first thing they said to us was, man, you guys dress smart. And of course we're like, all right, someone appreciates some style around here. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. This is so key and this is why we're so big on taking programs, getting the coaching. Experience is the greatest lesson of everything we just shared today. You are not gonna be scammed at the next conference. You are not gonna put yourself in that position. And I read all the travel books around Thailand. And one of my friends was like, adamant, you should get a suit in Thailand. So I went to Thailand, I had a wedding coming up and I was like, oh, maybe I'll get a suit. That was the only thing, but I knew there were gonna be scammers, me and my girlfriend at the time, now wife, we were walking around Thailand and we're like on edge. We know that people are gonna be approaching us and hustling us. We had a long day on this boat tour. We came back, we pulled our map out and we were just a little lost. And one of these took-took drivers came over and he was like, oh, you guys must be Americans. Obama was just here, started warming us up, got us into some rapport and he quickly discerned that I was actually looking for a suit. Now he took me to his suit guy to scam me, but now I know the next time I've traveled, like I'm even more alert and aware of all of these things. That if I'm getting too much attention, I'm getting too many compliments, I'm getting a lot of rapport-building tactics thrown at me quickly and stacking up, that I'm gonna go back to the hotel, I'm gonna hold my wallet a little extra closer. And we had the same thing happen in Barcelona. We had a mastermind there and one of our guys got their phone stolen. And we told the guys that listen, this is notorious for pickpockets. They all said, yeah, don't worry about it, don't worry about it. Next day, two guys got it stolen. So just because you're aware until you experience that loss and it's seared in your mind and you start to see how the matrix works, how people approach this, what their reasons are, why they're stroking your ego in that way, you are gonna fall prey to these things. Even if you read all of the books, you listen to all of the podcasts. Yeah, exactly right. Soon as that first incident happened, I made sure that when I went to a bar, I was either with somebody else, when I was in Vegas, I was with somebody else or I sat in a location that it was not convenient for someone to come just sit next to me. And that way I stopped that particular attack from occurring ahead of time. And people can do that, right? If someone listens to this podcast and they're like, oh, I'm about to go to Vegas next month for the first time. And now you know that this is a potential attack. Well, you can stop that by setting up these scripts ahead of time, right? They can hear your story about Thailand and they can set that up. They can hear your story about Barcelona and okay, let's take care of it this way, right? So they can hear stories from others and set up quote unquote scripts to help them stay safe. But sadly, the experience is the best teacher. It's just hope that the experience doesn't equate, have to always equate to massive loss so that way we learn that, right? It's more fun when the experience results and wins. Yes, yes, and wins are just a funny story, right? Maybe a funny story. Like, well, my bar story ended funny because I literally didn't even, you know, I'm an old married guy. I'm like, why would a prostitute, why would anyone would ever approach me like that? I'm like, that doesn't make sense to me. And then, you know, here's this like super attractive younger woman and that didn't dawn on me. I don't know, my vision of what a prostitute looked like was not that, you know? I mean, I live in Orlando. So when you go drive down like OBT and you see the prostitutes there, you're like, no. Like, no, that's desperation, you know? I don't want any, so. A different level. A different level. I wasn't expecting that, you know? And that, yeah, it was an interesting experience. So I learned a lot from that that really helped me to rethink next time, okay, what can I do? So I don't put myself in that situation again. Now the last point I'd love to touch on is in the subtitle, leave them better off for having met you. Seems a little odd coming from a social engineer. What do you mean by that? And what ultimately was your goal with this book? Because I realized that in my job, my job for the last 20 years has been to manipulate people so that way I can break into a bank or steal corporate documents or get you to give me passwords. But these skills have real life use. So I can only tell you stories about me breaking into banks, but how can you, as a citizen reading this book, apply that? So you don't have to do all the things I did. You don't have to lie, you don't have to cheat, you don't have to be manipulative that you can use these very same communication skills to win friends, influence people, but the focus always needs to be how do I do this and leave someone better for having met me? Because if I focus on that, if I think about this, if I, again, that same pretext, if I come up and I see you and Johnny outside and I'm like, hey, I wanna be their friends. They dress smart, I wanna be their friends, right? I wanna learn how to dress like that. But I see you guys both smoking or vaping or whatever and I'm gonna come up and use that's a lie. So if I say to myself, man, if I walk up to them and start my friendship up with them with a lie and then eventually they find out that was just a lie to become their friends, they may feel betrayed and that's gonna ruin the trust I worked hard on. So instead of that, I may say, you know what? Maybe I just walk up and be honest and say, hey guys, look, I've been struggling, man, I don't know how to dress. My wife's always yelling at me, telling me dress better. You guys look amazing. Like you got any tips for a guy my age? Like where can I shop? What do I do? Maybe that honest straightforward question to you validates you, compliments you, asking you for advice, putting you on a pedestal above me, telling you why I want this will have the same results as the lie of, hey, can I bum a cigarette? And now I'm in and I didn't have to do anything malicious. That's gonna ruin a potential relationship later, right? And that is what I mean by that subtitle is that if I think about what my end goal is, but how can I accomplish it by using truth, by using empathy, by using honesty, by leaving people feeling better for having met you? You can be an amazing social engineer but never once have to hurt someone to get your goal. I love that. And it's a great mission for this book. We love asking every guest what their X factor is. What do you think makes you unique and extraordinary? You know, I think for me, if I had to focus on one thing when you asked that, and I didn't know you were gonna ask that. So I liked the fact that you didn't tell me that question ahead of time. That made me really think the first thing that popped in my head was that I have tried my hardest in my career to base everything that I do on proven science. And that's different than what I see a lot of people in my field do. It's almost like the Jedi. Like, well, this worked for me three times. So I'm gonna go teach someone else this. But I try to say, hey, this worked for me three times. I wanna know why. And then I go and I read and I read books and I read and I have stack of books here on my desk and I read things on psychology, influence, leadership, whatever, and each one of my books. Like I'm reading this book right now by Amy Herman called Fix, right? And my book, I had a pen and a highlighter and each book that I read. And the reason I do that is I highlight things and I write notes as I'm reading the book. And then when I'm done, I add that to my list of things. Like, okay, she talked about this certain principle here. I think I do that here. Let me document that and try it on purpose next time. Now when it works, I can teach people say, hey, I know why this worked. But I think what my X factor is that I don't just rely on my own experience, which could be very different than yours even if we communicate similar. I want to be able to teach this to anybody. And my COO, who's an amazing social engineer is a complete introvert, the opposite of me. But he's amazing because what I was able to do is scientifically show him how to do all these things. So now he applies it, maybe very differently than me, but the science means that he can still apply it in his own way. So I think adding science to this very artful piece of work is maybe my X factor. Well, thank you for coming back on. We could go for hours. We're gonna have to have you back on, share some more stories. Great book. Where can our audience find out more about all the great work you do, Chris? So social-engineer.com is my website where you can find out all sorts of stuff about what I'm doing and information on the book. And if I can share one more website, I started a nonprofit just about five years ago, well, four and a half years ago called theInnocentLivesFoundation.org. And what I do is I got people from my industry that are really, really good at security. And we help federal law enforcement agents track down and locate people who are trafficking children and creating child abuse material. So my foundation just completed its 623rd case. So we are working a lot with law enforcement and people can find out more about the work that we're doing on that site too. Well, thank you for sharing your secrets from the dark side and all the great work you do. Really appreciate it, Chris. Thanks for having me on.