 People of the internet welcome to modern day debate tonight. We are debating leftist groomers or lying accusers and we are starting right now So I am Kaz host of atheist edge tonight We are joined by Fabian versus jangles and tonight We have faith jangles going first each person is going to have 10 minute opening statements Then a 50 minute opening discussion and 25 minute Q&A. So jangles at your first word. I will start the timer Hi everyone my name is jangles and the last time I was on modern day debate It was during the live event. They had you know the big in-person live event They had a few weeks ago. So after completely demolishing alex stein on a topic pretty similar to this You might also remember a testy interaction I had with Arielle scarcella during her panel after she accused teachers who supported queer students Behind the parents backs of being groomers. I flipped her often It was very classy as I'm known to be so during the Q&A that panel I confronted her about the use of that term Which means to coerce a child in order to sexually exploit them And she tried to walk it back while also weirdly defending its use as a politically effective term She like most right-wingers who toss this term around these days knows it isn't true But values the power it has to demonize their political enemies I'll bring up this anecdote because hours later a deranged loser killed five people and wounded 19 others with gunfire with gunfire at a Gay club in Colorado the motives haven't been set in stone yet But today that person was charged with 305 criminal counts including Bias motivated crimes to be clear while it is too early to definitively say what their motive was It's hard to look at months and months of escalating rhetoric and attacks on queer spaces and assumed that it was purely Coincidental what's not conjecture is the right-wing response to the shooting on Tucker Carlson's show the following Tuesday Shootings will continue to happen until we end this evil agenda that is attacking children for Matt Walsh Is it that hard not to cross-dress in front of kids if it's causing this must chaos and violence? Why do you insist on continuing to do it from Tim pool? We shouldn't tolerate pedophiles grooming kids club Q had a grooming event How do we prevent the violence and stop the grooming? to be clear the Grooming event in question was a drag brunch to be held Tragically the next day on the transgender day of remembrance a day devoted to honoring trans people murdered for being who they are And all ages drag brunch involves fully clothed performers singing and dancing to songs to an audience Consisting of parents and their children. There's no reality in which an honest person can call this a grooming event Unless they think gender nonconformity is not only inherently sexual But infectious the grooming rhetoric and the panic it has promoted relies on the dehumanization of all queer identities in order to be effective if you saw us as People you'd see that we have a perfectly reasonable and moral reason for wanting to normalize queer identities in society And yes, that includes children. We were once children We remember what it was like growing up in a society that viewed us as deviant as evil as diseased We remember struggling alone because our family and friends and teachers in the media We consumed told us we were sick we fought for our rights for decades and not all of us lived to see the benefits We want to create a better world full stop That means we don't want to see innocent children Ostracized and demonized for natural and benign variations in human behavior That can only happen if gay and trans and gender nonconforming people are seen as a part of everyday life Which we are that can only happen if it's okay to be gay or trans or queer But that might sound dangerously close to reasonable So instead the right has to pretend it's an evil plot to harm children This national panic was never about protecting children. There's a reason. There's no libs of tiktok exposing children's who were brought to Hooters There's a reason there isn't an uproar about grooming children every time Disney includes a straight romance in one of its kids films There's a reason that children can be inundated with the victims of gender all day every day But introducing the concept of a transgender person Somehow sexualizes them. It's because plenty of people still see queer identities as inherently sexual and deviant and infectious We still have work to do For tonight's debate Scott is in a difficult position. He said that the term groomer has nothing to do with sexualization I know that's false. He knows it's false. And if you take a gander over at the more Interesting characters and the MDD live chat on his side. They know it's false, too This current queer panic is more or less a rehash of the CRT panic from 2020 and they didn't use groomer then Use of the term didn't spike until March of this year when the term became a popular slur against queer people who exist Near children the lie that they're coming for your kids has been levied at gay and trans people for as long as we've been Marginally allowed to exist in society the malicious sexual connotation is baked into the word and that's why It's been politically effective to the point where we're only beginning to see the violence it has caused This movement to use the term groomer to connect pride flags in classrooms or drag queens reading books to children to some nefarious Pedophile plot was always stupid and false But there's still just enough bigotry in the public zeitgeist to make it effective It's inspired far-right militia groups to terrorize children at drag events It's inspired lawmakers to baselessly outlaw effective medical treatments And it's very likely has inspired at least one person to fill five body bags not even a month ago So I'm interested to hear what defense of Scott has for its continued use I want to hear Scott's reasoning as to why my earlier reasoning for wanting to normalize queer identities is grooming But somehow the changes he no doubts wants to implement in society would not constitute as grooming So that's my opening statements All right Thank you so much jangles for your opening statement and now we will kick it over to Fabian for his opening statement at your first word Fabian the floor is all yours Awesome. Yeah, I am Scott from Fabian Liberty You know, you find me everywhere. It's Fabian Liberty. Thanks for having me Yeah, wasn't expecting to see I'm somebody standing on the graves of The LGBT community immediately in their opening statement, but let's go ahead and get into this Before I can explain why the left are groomers It's important that we define terms grooming is a word with many connotations Only some of which apply here for example if a CEO mentors a young man with potential in hopes of allowing him to ascend to leadership One can say he has groomed. He's been groomed for this. So moving forward I'll be using this definition grooming is the act of bringing a child into a sexual political or racial Ideology practice cult or lifestyle with the knowledge or consent by his or her guardians for the aim of Isolating them from their family so the external party can abuse and manipulate them So, how does this apply to leftism? Sure? We've all seen the dozens of cases of crazy blue-haired dear people on libs of tick-tock We also recognize this is the excess of a country of three hundred and thirty million people These individual cases are horrific and often involve love bombing blatant indoctrination Secrets from parents and a laundry list of abuses. They're a distraction. However They're simply the fallout the symptom of a far more pernicious and evil encroachment on your children and this country Groomers in schools are woke individuals engaged in the praxis of woke ideology or critical consciousness The philosophy speaks through them as Carl Jung famously stated people do not have ideas ideas have people Those blue-haired dear people. They're simply ideologically possessed many Americans Especially conservatives are finally waking up to the excesses of wokeness and the attack on their children But they fail to see the larger picture the entire field of education is overtaken with a philosophy that is both pedophilic and Marxist sounds crazy, right? I'm sure that my opponent will attempt to call me a conspiracy theorist He's done so before the problem is is that I've actually read queer theory So let's look at some of the evidence claim number one Wokeness is pedophilic and thus the woker sexual groomers at least in some capacity Well, Gail Rubin's thinking sex, which is the foundational document of all queer theory is overwhelmingly pro man-boy love So much so in fact that she's quoted on Nambla's website Pat Califa author of macho sex and public sex is explicitly pedophilic in much of her. Well his literature now Judith Butler Regularly advocates for the destigmatization of incest Foucault's often called the father of queer theory was potentially a pedophile We don't really know but he did sign a petition along with much of the French postmodernist to abolish the age of consent Including for infants along with Sartre Derrida, etc David Evans another famous queer theorist and college textbooks and many other theorists advocate for sexual citizenship For children that's in quotes and claim that childhood innocence is a myth But actually harms children FY David Evans also laments that pre-pubescent children aren't sexually active That really puts mark Hughes is a eco Aeroson civilization in a new light doesn't it claim number two wokeness is Marxist this is only a secret to general discourse nearly every sociology professor in textbook will state that Karl Marx is the father of critical theory The first sex education programs were developed by George Lukash in 1919 during the brief Hungarian Marxist Revolution to destroy kind of gromskies idea of cultural hegemony of religion and family Lukash went on to inspire many at the Frankfurt school who explicitly wanted to reframe Marxism into cultural institutions They called this cultural Marxism and so did Wikipedia until 2014 But it is here that critical theory is born Queer theory is Marxism rebranded to apply to heteronormativity and just like critical race theory critical legal studies critical gender studies Etc. It is anti-capitalist Anti-individualist and pro-communist just ask any critical theorists how they would feel how they feel about capitalism Okay, but what about the third claim? I kind of slipped it in right that the field of education is overtaken by critical theory Well, Paulo Freire father of critical pedagogy is the number one cited social scientist Period I'll repeat that the father of critical pedagogy an ideology of praxis on how to specifically train People to become literate in critical consciousness to bring about the communist revolution is the number one Cited social scientist with over 480,000 citations and his pedagogy of the oppressed has well over a hundred thousand citations To put that in perspective That's only about a hundred thousand less than Sigmund Freud the father of Psychology with none of his works even approaching pedagogy of the oppressed So I think it's very clear that academia is infected with these ideas Transformative social emotional learning is explicitly designed to destroy Individualism and create a critical democracy that is equity focused and anti-capitalist Well second step brags that they bring social emotion social emotional learning to over 16 and a half million children annually in elementary school that's 34 percent of all US elementary schools and Second step openly supports transformative social emotional learning giving teachers and students resources to push Diversity equity inclusion initiatives social justice through psychological interventions on your children psychists Sex education for social justice writes the national sex education Standards adopted by many states. Oh, and they just happened to do a recent conference with second step Ebram X can be Sumi Cho and Crenshaw and they all openly admitted that critical race theory is in your schools And that we need more of it According to psychist 61 percent of universities require that sexuality classes under gender studies women's studies programs Be taken for an health education degree. These are the same classes that are teaching childhood innocence Is a bourgeois myth to prevent child sexual liberation Yeah, pedagogy in america is fucked So given that education is seemingly full of leftists using psychological interventions to indoctrinate your children Into an ideology that is pro pedophilia so long as it brings about the destruction of cultural hegemon and marxists Do you have a better word for the people who run cover for this than groomers? I doubt it See the real problem is that right wingers are starting to wake up and they're kind of seeing what's happening And worse they found a word that gets under the left skin Just like the decade of being screamed at that you're a fascist a nazi a bigot a xenophobe a racist an ableist or your fat phobic Except this one works groomer Okay, thank you so much Fabian for that opening statement and we will go ahead and move to the The open discussion But before we do that I just want to let everybody know especially if it's your first time joining us here at modern day debate that we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics And we want you to feel welcome no matter what walk of life You're from and if you have a question or a comment for one of tonight's debaters fire into the old live chat and be Sure, attack me at modern day debate super chats go to the top of the list All we ask is that you please keep it civil attack the argument and not the person as insults will not be read And that goes for the general discourse in the live chat as well Our guests are linked in the description below whether you're listening on youtube or via the podcast on our many platforms So click the links if you like what you're hearing And hit the subscribe button because we have plenty more debates coming that you don't want to miss including Uh, let me just pull that up real quick Sorry Uh, we have daniel hakikachu versus michael jones coming up and alex stein versus hunter avalon Those debates are in the works. So please hit the subscribe button if you want to check those out And with that we will go and oh by the way I'm going to be planning and after show open mic debate discussion After the show tonight. So if uh, you guys want to continue the conversation there Both of the debaters are invited. So maybe they will join us and then you guys can continue to Break them with your questions. So with that we will go ahead and kick it into the open discussion gentlemen At your first word the floor is all yours Okay, I have two big questions. I guess I'm still a little bit confused. You talk to me like I'm an idiot Uh, is grooming about pedophilia or not you kind of like The first part of your opening statement was about how grooming actually it's not linked to pedophilia It's that's not how you're using it But then like half of the rest of your opening statement was trying to connect Wokeness to pedophilia. So is pedophilia a part of grooming or not? Yeah, so the the problem here, I think is that um Is is maybe you missed the portion where I'm talking about the philosophy, right? So, yeah, there's there's a connotation of pedophilia there, but it's not necessarily so so groin is Definitially like it involves it as a sexual connotation. So that's what everybody uses it as that's what you know It as that's what the entire right as that's right That's why you're using it and that's why you went on this one. So it'll be like connecting it to pedophilia Okay, relax. So you told me to explain it to you like a child. So let's do it like a child So there's a difference between an individual insult accusing that individual of pedophilia, right as opposed to Calling someone a groomer because they instantiate a philosophy that is wrapped up in pedophilia or at the very least The the destruction of the barriers that protect children, right? So when someone is a queer theorist and they're actively supporting queer theory, right? They're actively supporting ideas such as getting rid of the bourgeois mythology of child innocence and using frarian Cult indoctrination against your children To to destroy their ability to categorize things So it's both political and sexual grooming in a way that can be utilized by bad actors Especially okay, so you are using grooming You are intentionally like letting people know that as part of grooming the pedophilia the sexual connotations are a necessary component Of fully understanding what you mean when you say groomer that brings me to my next question And this is the problem that all conspiracy theorists have there's this grand conspiracy That is like top down and it's like And it's only evil motives that saturday morning cartoon villain motives to destroy capitalism and infect the west That requires that would require like an amount of Coordination that should mean that we're like on top of the fucking world Like we should be able to control everything and the problem you're running into is I gave a reasonable what I think is a very reasonable Goal for my what I want in society. All right, so and I can't you're against you're against the philosophy So there's two problems. No, no, no, okay. Let's I want to even address like Tell me no, no, no, no tell me if this is before we go before we tell me if this is a movie Like do you remember like part of my opening statement when I said like I want you to see this as people you're pivoting I'm not pivoting. Let me just let me just why not pivoting. I'm just missing. No, I'm about the conspiracy theory angle And I want to ask you a direct right, so let me let me just respond to the first part, right? So the first problem is that you don't need a conspiracy theory when like interests a lot, right? It's a great george carlin quote. I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy theory I'm saying that there is a philosophy that is promulgated That is being that is being brought forward. That's critical consciousness Right, so I'm talking about a philosophy. You're saying it's a conspiracy theory I've not laid forward any conspiracy thus thus so far So you you accuse me of something that you can't prove because I've yet to state a single conspiracy The so you're saying that there's just a coordinated effort that all of this stuff that we're talking about what what right-wingers Typically described as grooming It's all part of this coordinated effort and you really made it seem like it's coming from like these these philosophers who Believe things that I'm a little bit tenuous. I don't know if I trust your your description of them I can quote if you want, but it's part of my opening statement. I gave what I thought was a reasonable A reasonable outcome for society that I want with I can only answer myself I want you to say I want you to answer this question Yeah, so like how about you talk to me I can't I can't answer for the all the queer theorists Uh, and you could tell me if this is queer theory or not But remember part of my opening statement like what part of that do you think was grooming? Like uh, specifically the part where I was like if you saw us as people You'd see we have a perfectly reasonable and moral reason for wanting to normalize queer identities in society Yeah, that goes against so that's a talking point that shields, uh, the lie of the philosophy, right? So I'm trying to shield the lie of the philosophy that I secretly believe in when I do that See, this is what I was talking about. You can't that seems too reasonable So it has to be this like weird conspiracy theory where we're working like pet you just don't understand You just don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand what you're talking. I'm talking about my reasoning I do know what my reasoning is now what you do address that you can't Okay, you you keep you keep talking over me because you realize that I know what I'm talking about You don't so just relax for a second. Take a deep breath and let me explain to you why you're right I want you. No, why am I wrong with my reason? Hold on. Jen goes. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. Fabian. Let me let me speak Yeah, so again when you say that you you claim a group Thing that that we're asking for now if you as an individual just want people Um to accept individuals for who they are congratulations You should join the libertarians, right and you should fight against grooming, right? And you should fight against the left because it's the left and the queer fear It's such as like uh, David Halperin, right that says that queer theory is an identity without an essence Okay, this is a common aspect of all of the academic literature is that queer theory is about Abolishing any form of rigidity or any categorization whatsoever? They don't want you in the theory in the philosophy does not want you identified as a gay man It wants to be gender abolitionists and abolitionists on all forms of identity That is what the philosophy promulgates and then is the entire point of adding all of these additional categories So No No, there's a lot of disagreement in queer ideology. I don't queer theorists. We're not going to say like no You can't identify as a gay man. They're not just straight up not going to say that it's not that centralized There's a lot of disagreement and again. I can't answer for these like what these esoteric People who no one's ever fucking heard of that are apparently still influencing society I want you to address what i'm thinking. He has 10,000 citations. It's not someone who's never heard of I know but you think like all like the drag queens know that you think that you think that when like uh, The right wingers are accusing people of being grooming. They're aware of all this shit. No, they're not I want you to address what I was saying. So for example, like is would it be malicious? How about this? Well, you ask me a question. Would it be malicious to have do you want me to answer the actual question? I'm asking all right. Oh, would it be a different question pivoting malicious to what it would be malicious to show Pride flags to kids is that malicious So again, you have to talk about like you're you're you're taking an individual action Which is what I knew that you would do, right? Yeah, which is what you're trying to do is you're trying to ice No, you're trying to isolate things from the philosophy You're trying to make it a part of the reason that you can't answer why that's wrong So you have to make it a part of the conspiracy depends on bond the context like what is what is like? What's happening? Who is the person? Why are they doing the person right? Sure? So for example, I can we can talk about frairy we can talk about frarian concepts, right? So are they utilizing are they utilizing the flag as a means of conscientiation, right? Are they trying to decodify by putting forward the flag, right? Or is it just like hey, this person likes gay rights and like they don't do anything about it or are they using generative concepts? Yeah, except that's that's not true Like your inability to know anything about the philosophy or know anything about what's going on in this country and you're And when I mentioned people that are extremely cited in queer theory and you prove that you didn't prepare for this debate Doesn't mean that you can just play stupid and act like i'm a conspiracy theorist when you've still yet to demonstrate a single conspiracy that I've put forward The conspiracy is that you're trying to make all these like you don't want to talk about individual instances That's I think that's part of the the big thing Like so when you have something innocuous like a pride flag and we can no Distraction from the problem. Okay. It's a distraction from the problem because I'm actually making you substantiate what you're you're trying to like prove in some sort of like grand plan I'm talking about like The things that people 34 of all elementary schools like I've overwhelmingly Okay, the things that people call grooming that I see all the time from right wingers Are not that fucking complicated. All right. It's like when a character in a disney movie the new one That's gay. That's grooming now. That's that's sexualizing kids. You can't you okay? Can we start from there? That's ridiculous That's not grooming kids, right No, I don't give right so again fantastic. So that's right. No, let me so so one of the problem is right Is that conservatives are reacting to something that they don't quite understand right? They don't really most normies and most people they have a set of values and they have a set of deontological beliefs Right and so if you cross their values in some way they react, right? This is why you know Pardon me using and marx's term Kind of inappropriately, but this is why people call the right reactionary right is that they see People attacking their children in kind of like different areas and they don't understand what's going on, right? And so they've collectively used this word groomer to explain a phenomena That they haven't quite put their finger on the pulse of yet What I'm doing is I'm showing the finger on the pulse the philosophy and the ideology that Causes some of these ideologically possessed people to do the crazy shit. You see on libs of tick-tock, right? okay, so Just to be clear the the gay character in the disney movie. That's not grooming It's ridiculous to say it is right at the stupid thing to say it's not sexual I mean it depends upon the instance, but I don't can't think of any from like disney recently That's like grooming it just looks like woke people making woke movies Why is it woke to include a gay character in a movie? It's not woke to include a gay character It depends on why so I'll give you an example makes it look so like onward so like onward, right? I remember I was watching onward and like I saw like geeks and gamers and some other conservative people And they were like the onwards got this woke scene and I watched the scene with my kids And it's like a lesbian cop brings up the fact that she has a wife And I'm like this isn't this is just a lesbian existing like this isn't fucking grooming, right excellent Right, but then there are other there are other examples, right? Not necessarily with disney, right? But like where you can you can see something and it's so laden with philosophy You can see that there's like all like I mean like um I'm trying to think of like a good like feminist tv program like super girl, right? You watch super girl and it's just like feminist rhetoric is in every fucking episode, right? What does finish like she's the boss girl Yeah, she's the boss like he's trying to like show that like traditionally women have been like Uh Dissuaded from taking positions of power. They've been told that they're weak They're uh been told to be subservient to it, you know Varying degrees in society and this and yeah, there is a feminist message to say that no they can take charge They can be the hero of their own stories. Yeah, right. So you recognize that there's a political message in it Yes, but I don't know why that's a bad thing Yeah, I mean like in power women Taking like, you know map mapping the margins, right and things like that like yeah, obviously the personal is political Um why it's a bad thing Is is in a media that you can choose to watch or not watch it's it's not like you want to watch super girl Watch super girl if you don't want to watch super girl, don't fucking watch super girl But when you're talking about people in public education, right that are being specifically targeted Um by by cult indoctrination techniques I'm not not letting you do that. No, I am erupting cult indoctrination techniques. Come on. That's a loaded term Just not being fair. That's that's not a good thing. Oh, no, I mean totally fair I'm being you're not what social emotional learning is. It's not a cult the cult indoctrination You disagree with it without it being a cult. That's actually no, it's literally cult indoctrination. It's literally not It's literally like me to explain how it is Should I yeah, because it's going to say something that you really really disagree with and you're going to have some like Huge conspiracy nonsense to back it up like you have for the past like no No, no, like so all you need to do is like read the research on transformative social emotional learning, right? And recognize that transformative social emotional learning Is engaged specifically to destroy capitalism To create a quote critical democracy To destroy ideas of individualism and bias and to inform and educate everyone how far you're going, right? No, I'm literally you're going voting highly cited research to destroy capitalism Like to like literally in the research. I want me to link it to you. I mean, yeah They want to like destroy society Yeah, cool or whatever like yeah It's like this is why this is where like the big red flag Why I just can't take this conspiracy nonsense. Seriously. It's saturday morning cartoon villain logic Like we wanted to be evil to be no, it's literally we want to be like you literally accuse like my entire side the woke side Whatever the fuck that is of being inherently pedophilic. No, what the fuck no No, what's no one is actually advocating for pedophilia to be normalized and legalized. They're not there So, no, they're not let's go that in public. I'm gonna discourse. I'm gonna quote research All right, so quoting from david evans from his Sexual citizenship the materials the material construction of sexualities by david evans chapter eight embryonic sexual citizenship He specifically goes into Let's see. He let me let me find it. Um Most arguably aries argued that within the sociability of the pre-capitalist machinery of alliance Children were integral participants in adult life as soon as the child could live without the constant solicitude of of his mother his Nanny or his cradle rocker. He belonged to society likewise by the age of 10 girls were already little women both with their corresponding rights and responsibilities others have disagreed arguing that such definitions of the non-child Were restricted to the nobility and for that great majority of space like I can like we can look at that We can look at yeah, what about that like what about that was supporting your point That would read all the fucking research, right? Yeah, that that was just You were supposed to bring up a cool. I mean when you read paragraph point what you read out was just descriptively true Yeah, it was a lot more normal back in the day back in the early industrial way to sexualize children way too early We've moved past that and it's good that we moved past that It's good that we're not sexualizing children and expecting them to have families at 12 years old Gail Rubin 1978 and leaping lesbian, right? This is the this is the person that wrote thinking sex, right? Which is the foundational document for queer theory. Here we go Youth liberation is argued for some time that young people should have the right to have sex as well as not to have it And with whom they choose the statutory structure of the sex laws has been identified as oppressive and insulting to young people a range of sexual activities are legally defined as molestation Regardless of the quality of the relationship or the amount of consent involved The recent career of boy love and the public mind should say to serve as an alert that the self interests of the feminist and Gave movements are linked to simple justice for stigmatized sexual minorities We must not reject all sexual contact between adults and young people as inherently oppressive. Sweet. That's stupid No one thinks that Except no one. No, no, no one in the founder of fucking queer theory. There's nothing found There's no single founder of queer theory. Yeah, that's a stupid thing for that person to say All right, and yeah, that that that absolutely something that I do not agree with the problem that you're running into It's like why do you want to look at motto? So who is arguing that today? That was How is that coming up today? A lot of people like this is why it's so fucking hard to talk about that is because they anytime that like Again, if we talk introduce kids to the concept that being trans is a thing or the being gay is a thing Now people will accuse that of being pedophilic. That's the problem we're having like that shit What you just said that that fucking sucks. That's not what the national conversation is The national conversation is any things that would be normal if they were I know you hate this word Cis-heteronormative now all of a sudden are inherently sexual and deviant and exploitative of children. So That's the problem that we're running into Queer theory represents it again over and over again. We're not debating queer theory or we're debating like the groomer's slur Yes, we're debating the philosophy that is being instantiated in our schools via social The ultimate goal of this is to get children to have sex with adults. Is that the implication? I think the ultimate goal is to weaken the children's ability to categorize things meaningfully so that through a Frerian system People can develop the philosophy right that can teach the philosophy which requires the destruction of cultural hegemonies like antonio gromsky Layed out they have what what culture are we destroying are we destroying? So you have to go after the so the five main categories of Of cultural hegemony would be religion family education media. Let's go one by one. Let's talk about religion Media let's go one by one religion. How are we destroying religion? I didn't say that we're destroying religion. I'm saying that the philosophy In order to be able this philosophy fully has to go into these cultural hegemon Yeah, you're making the case that what we're trying to destroy all those things one. Let's talk about religion How are we destroying religion? It seems like the attacks on religion today is like you can't discriminate against gay people That's what the national conversation is. That's construed as an attack on religion I don't buy that for a second said the family. Who's trying to destroy families? No one wants to get no one wants to separate Healthy happy families. No one wants to have kids grow up without parents. In fact, the the queer side of things I mean, we both know that we want No, we both know that that what the no, we're not trying to destroy not all though Hashtag not all all right. We want to like make more families We want uh, you know queer people to be able to adopt and raise kids like we've been doing for a while and Something queer people, right? It's an identity without an essence, right? Identity with it just means non-sensitive or normative and I know you hate that word But that's that's what queer the umbrella term means Right, but it but it's it's a it's a lack of a category, right? It's a lack of identity like you it's like saying it is a lack of a category No, atheism is a is a rejection of a category. Okay, so it's uh, so queer is just not cis heteronormative. So, you know what cis is, right? Yeah, sort of Sort of yeah, cisgender you identify with the sexual or sign of birth. That's what cisgender is. Yeah trans will be not that Okay, uh heteronormative that means like you're not attracted to the opposite sex That's what that means. Yeah, and so that and so that's an umbrella term for all of these people and these people are what about it? These are normal aspects of human variation and it seems like any It seems like the grooming has to do with like introducing Children to the concept that these people exist and that it's normal and it's not dangerous And you're not a deviant if you end up being gay or trans or any other flavor the problem That's all that we're trying to do and and we're being accused of like sexually Want and teen to exploit children Being pedophiles for this, huh? Because I do you do I want to Philosophy that wants to sexually exploit children. No, I don't literally exploit children. No, I don't no You're cc. Yes, you do. This is how weak your arguments are you have to pretend that I hold views that I don't I believe how weak my arguments are you haven't addressed any of my shit You've just been gish galloping and freaking out. Yeah, I'm trying to yeah, man I'm trying to do like Questions about what my what is problems? What are the problems with my beliefs that you have I've told you I want to normalize queer identities a lot of people would already say that that's grooming Queer identity is already a problem because it's a loaded term in a philosophy that is ultimately destructive towards our Children's ability to be able to meaningfully have categories Individualism, you know what's really fucking distructed and anti-individualist like conversion therapy keeping kids like Teaching kids that's no being gays actually version therapy. Well, you know for tuning I'm some weird republican you're debating against and actually debate the issues that you're too afraid of I'm very afraid. It's why I agreed to the debate. Um, so How do we you know maybe they'll ask you what is the healthy way to let kids identify as gay or trans and let them become gay Or trans if that's what they're meant to be. What's the healthy way of making sure that they're not Can you make your question like meaningful like what is like do I have to describe the entire development of a child? Yeah, I want to know what the good version is you tell me what the evil version is How do we make sure that kids who are going to grow up to be gay or are going to grow up to be trans? How do we make sure that they don't feel ostracized? How do we make sure that we're not let them be gay? I agree. Now, how do we make sure that that's happening because there's still a lot of people in society That demonize queer folk that demonize trans people that demonize gay people How do we win the argument? But it has nothing to do with what's going on in schools and has nothing to do with any of the philosophy Of critical pedagogy, which is the dominant form of education philosophy in our country current Okay, so do you agree with the don't say gay bill in texas and i'm texas that well There's I guess the diversion texas to start in florida. Do you agree with the don't say gay bill there? I think that the don't say gay bill has issues in that like Like I like the idea that conservatives are attempting to wake up. I think it's ultimately toothless Um, and and I'm I'm you know, I'm against the state in most regards So like I don't know like 50 50 maybe like 70 30 agree with it Okay, so the impetus behind that I stated by like His press secretary was it's an anti groomer bill and it makes this and it makes the argument specifically that's introducing gay or trans uh people to under the age of uh, you know, whatever third grade is Yeah, first kindergarten first and second. Yeah, that's somehow grooming them into What is tricking them to be gay is tricking them to be trans or more likely what the actual not introducing that So that's what the actual kind of means somehow like indoctrinated them to like be sexually exploited by you brought Right, you're you're trying to dominate the conversation with your examples Because you can't deal with any of the facts that I laid out in the philosophy But then you're bringing up the don't say gay bill and now you've already lied about what the don't say gay bill Is actually saying you're allowed to say you're gay You're allowed to say you have a husband What you're not allowed to do is create lesson plans for first graders second graders and kindergartners Around gender identity and sexual orientation. So why are you lying about the own example? You tried to okay, let's see if you're willing to tell the truth You're too much you're willing to talk about the actual problem If we had a reading assignment in second grade that involved two husbands Do you think the parents would like say that that's in violation of the don't say gay bill? Some parents might say that yeah, and that's one of the things that doesn't make them right If if parents make a big fuss about it, that was the big confusion of it Are these things allowed and it looks like I don't know man It looks like a lot of parents would say that no that's sexualizing their kids Your confusion with what's in the bill is not a reason for the bill to be bad And it's not a reason for you to fucking pivot about the fact What was what was it banning it? Hold on what existed prior to this that it was banning then It was like what was it fixing predominantly predominantly what it was fixing is the fact that guidance counselors and school officials were able to Without any onus of any actual abuse occurring or potential abuse occurring we're able to hide The gender identity and social transition of children from parents. That was the major thing in the bill That's a really good one to focus on because that was the accusation of grooming. All right I know it's the pivot you want, but I'll I'll go with you It's not the pivot I want out like you're saying a thousand things I have to address one of them So that the hiding the hiding the trans identity or I guess it would also apply to like gave it That young probably trans identities. Do you know why that's Queer identities are unique in terms of like other marginalized groups It's because we're typically born into families that are straight that ours is that don't aren't necessarily deal equipped to accept us Because you're an outlier, right? Like it would be really unlikely to have queer parents with queer kids I mean, I know that it does happen but it's a lot less likely to happen And so do you like is it not more reasonable to assume that a kid hasn't told their parents because they're not they're scared And maybe they were looking for other adults in their life It is unreasonable. It is you ask me a question, right? Like relax first. You gotta let an unreason man Well, then don't ask me a fucking question and then I would ask other leading questions and more questions, right? I'm with the question. Okay. Go right there rhetorical questions that you're trying to slip in hoping that you get a jab With a question. So just fine finish the fucking question Cool. What do you think is more likely in a typical scenario? Of course, there's gonna be exceptions Do you think it's more likely that a kid is hiding the fact that they're trans from their parents? Uh, because they don't they think the parents are going to reject them and they're seeking comfort with the teacher The other adult in their life Or do you think it's some sort of like an indoctrination cult that is trying to pull kids away from their parents? What do you think is more likely in a typical scenario? Well, I don't know what you mean by a typical scenario if we're talking about california where the rates are like Are like 20 times higher than they were only a few years ago, then it's more likely they've been indoctrinated No, it's more accepted there We saw that we've seen an exploit. We see like like no, I'm saying like I know I'm simply saying that when you have a social contagion that is in certain areas where there's so much of these Indoctrination and cult indoctrination that's occurring from teachers. Yeah, you're gonna see this mass of me of loaded language It's cult indoctrination social. Well, you actually wouldn't let me answer that question You just dismissed it and I said I have proof of it. Yeah, what's the proof of social indoctrination? Sure, what you say is the rates are rising. I have a I have a theory for why the rates are rising I think it's becoming more accepted and so people are more more free to identify as that So you believe is that reasonable to believe? Jesus fucking Christ. How many things you want to talk about at the same time? All right. So so first of all You believe that like in areas where it's like 40 or higher where individuals are identifying as non-binary And you know lgbtq, right that that's just the representation It's more accepted and so throughout all of human history some Extremely large minority of people were non-binary trans queer folks like that's silly But in terms of the indoctrination the proof of that silly all you need to do is all you need to do is look at casel And look at the standards and social emotional learning and look at how they teach teachers And one of the things that they teach is they specifically teach just a kind of rebranding of frarian Tactics, right, which is to find a genitive theme Sorry a generative theme, right? Take that generative theme such as gender or something, right? Find out where the the the conflict is there and then codified or decodified by codifying And then make that theme problematic and then you can create critical awareness and critical Consciousness the way they do it in social emotional learning and they openly admit is that what they do is they focus on individuals especially individuals that have been marked by the systems Because they take tests to find who to target And then they target them and they pull them into what they call the fear zone Right and what they do is they try and bring forward their biases They try and bring forward their privilege and oppression and the way that they're like and their identity Statuses and then put them in front of classmates through a struggle session And they say once you break through the fear zone Then you go into the learning zone and they specifically and the literature specifically talks about how you can create a critical democracy with this You just got to read the literature, man It's not that fucking complicated dude. It really isn't right I mean, it's right there. No trans kids have existed way before all of this like social emotional learning stuff happens In fact, a lot of that is a response to them a lot of that is a response to them You just dismissed the notion that like an increased acceptance can cause an increase in identity That's you just I didn't dismiss that I didn't dismiss that that's a lie I dismissed that we think you're on video dude that it would be up to 40 percent in right 40 percent where I've never heard that statistic 40 percent of like jen z jen z in california jen z of california are identifying as like Some sort of queer identity most of which are non-binary and bisexual Yeah, yeah, which is completely normal to do bisexual. Yeah, so so we've created we've otherwise like these people would right You're saying that's normal. You're saying that like it is only 60 percent of people are straight 100 percent belong to some other category. I think if there was absolutely no social So yeah, you'd have a lot of you have a lot more people naturally non-binary I think yeah, if there was absolutely if there was absolutely no social stigma against queer identities Yeah, you'd see a lot of people identifying as bi or pansexual or even non-binary. Yeah, that's a normal thing to expect This notion that it's actually normal for That what happened in the past that was normal. That is ludicrous to me Like for the vast majority of human history, all these identities were suppressed by the state sometimes underpinningly of like severe punishments like death sentences and we see I'll have death sentences death sentences for queer identities in a Lot of the world to act like and all we're doing is more likely lifting those restrictions That's all this quote. That's not what you're doing nation grooming is really no that really is a lie No one we're not trying to trick cis kids into being trans. Why would we do that? What is the What nine saturday morning cartoon villain logic could you possibly have for us wanting to do that? So many strawmans in such energy So nobody nobody made the claim that you're making I've never said that they're attempting to indoctrinate your kid into being trans What I said is that they're engaged in trying to promulgate a philosophy That they themselves believe in critical consciousness and that this is harmful to children It confuses children and I think that there's obviously an environmental factor to both sexual Sexual sexuality as well as identity. I don't know if you know what you're talking about When you imply that there's a social contagion, you're absolutely trying to apply that they're tricking kids into being Identities that they would otherwise wouldn't be that's exactly what you're doing. That's what social contagion means You're like that's exactly what you're implied. I don't know why that's not what I'm in why Absolutely Have these queer It's not natural that we are like we are influencing these kids to identify as something that they're truly not No, it's not it man. You are making the case that it's a social contagion That's what that means social contagion a social contagion Recognizes that there's some environmental factor that does not mean what your claiming it means Which is that I'm patient is not a neutral term if it's environmental I get that you're triggered, but you don't understand what you're talking about You're straw manning me by saying that I'm saying that these teachers or that social emotional learning is attempting to quote unquote Trans the kids, right? I'm not saying that what I'm saying is that they're attempting to get them to destroy the understanding Categories that they're attempting to create critical consciousness and that this has effects That's not the same thing is trying to make a kid trans What it does is it confuses and harms children and makes them and indoctrinates them into a philosophy that has all types of unintended or intended consequences One of which might be an increase in the rate of self identification, especially with young girls So when you say social contagion, that's not a neutral term You you you flip flopped and said that no, it's it's just talking about environmental I just know you said it's the environmental factors if we're talking about environmental factors is As a factor in these increase in identity. I absolutely agree with it I like to explain it by an increase in acceptance and you want to and you had to like pivot to this like weird It's cult indoctrination like all this loaded language. You're pretending like I'm straw manning you But no you have this super loaded evil language and I go back to this again The purpose is apparently Saturday morning cartoon philology. They just want to destroy capitalism and disrupt society when you use words I can prove that you're impugning it with a negative moral Stance the same reason that you're using you mean you're trying to impugn with a negative moral stance Yes, and it's no see we want increased acceptance. I'll okay Maybe I'd like to ask this again, and I'm just I'm asking you a straight question right here how do we Support trans and gay kids in a way that you would not consider grooming. What would that look like? Well, I would say first of all, there's no such thing as a trans kid. There's a kid that has gender dysphoria, right? Um, trans the only way that you can be a trans kid The only way that you can be a trans kid is if you start transitioning, right? Now if you talk about socially transitioning, right? I don't actually have much problem with social transition given the current context It's unfortunate that so many kids are put in down a really bad path because of this um, but in terms of like gender affirming medical care like antigen therapy HRT or like, you know, you know any of the trans affirming surgeries, right? Like I so like what I guess I would say like what the fuck do you mean by trans kid? Okay, let's let's walk it back Like trans kid is someone who identifies with the gender they were not assigned to birth That's what a trans kid is And they do exist. Okay. So any kid that just says I'm a boy is a trans kid. No, that's a girl Deep rooted. I didn't the moment they identify. Yeah. Yeah the second they start to play with a girl That's exactly what the research says. That's exactly what the queer theorists do if you ever if a boy ever looks at a doll Absolutely not. That's a trans kid. Now. Sorry, buddy. You're a girl. Doesn't matter what what you identify as no No sort of safeguarding no medical research to support it. Let's get you on them Humanity blockers now who's straw manning who? Really what the fuck is very very you just went in your own little fantasy of arguing against alex thine That's what i'm not alex thine. You have to I know you're you're somehow you're somehow worse At least he was honest. So there are trans kids. Where have I like to support? In fact, they're like you told me a lie. Where is a trans kid? No such thing as a trans kid That's just a dumb thing to say. You said the other kids with gender dysphoria. That's a lie So so can you prove that I don't believe that sir? I think the gender dysphoria is different. If you say no, if you say there's not a trans kid A trans kid is just a kid who identifies with a gender. They weren't assigned to birth That's what a trans kid is and those exist. You might not agree with almost every child has been trans Almost every child. No, it's not. No, that's the straw man. It's not a a flippant. Uh, I feel like a boy now I feel like it's not that flippant. There's a decade to decade Let me help you out if you don't know what you're talking about. No, I know what I'm talking about I'm trying to I'm trying to tell you no, there's decades of research into this in fact a lot of like Let me help you because you don't know what you're talking about No, I'm trying to show you what I'm talking about Fabian let's let jingles uh make this point and then you can show him what you want to show Decades and decades of the gender research that uh has supported these identities and showed that it's really effective to the socially transition That's shown how important it is for societal and especially family acceptance for these kids to live happy and healthy lives Show that one of the biggest factors that are going to predict a persistence into gender dysphoria and trans identities as an adolescent and adult Is early onset? Gender dysphoria as early onset identification and they very very clearly state that it is language like I am a girl I in it's consistent and persistent and doesn't seem to be uh should folded by like pure whims A really good example of this and something you someone that you apparently in our last debate thought was a point in your favor You know john money, right? What about john money? John money had uh had a incorrect theory that all gender was completely blank slate tabula rosa socially constructed He had that Really fucked it was an evil. Yeah, he he fucked up. Absolutely. He fucked up because he was really really wrong And what did he do a kid with a boy with a botched circumstance? Circumcision was raised as a girl fully raised as a girl and guess what? He had gender dysphoria. He had what would today be considered gender dysphoria and immense immense stress that came from it So no, you cannot construct gender identity out of whole cloth. It is something deeply rooted in biology That's what all this research says. That's why I know what I'm talking about I know what the research says socially transition can be really really good for a lot of kids Can I go now you made like 20 points? First of all, I'll just let I'll just I'll just I'll just let you keep john money as a piece of shit Because I don't think it's really helping your side to it. I said he was a piece of shit. I'm green right No, I'm just saying yeah, like I'm just saying like that, you know The early research into this. I don't know that it's necessarily helping you. But yeah, yeah Absolutely help persistent and consistent gender dysphoria, right? Which is a very very very very small percentage of the population, right? Nowhere near this this larger group of people that you would say exist within gender Um within social contagion, right? You're talking about an incredibly small minority of individuals, right? And then you could maybe say like intersex, right? Which is like, you know 0.018 percent like there are certain Yeah, yeah, yeah, some people will come up with this claim of 2 which is hilarious. Um But yeah, so when you're talking about persistent and consistent gender dysphoria Again, you're talking about persistent consistent gender dysphoria. You're not talking about a trans child Yes, you're talking about someone that has gender dysphoria and they are trans they identify as the other gender That's what a trans kid is They don't have the wherewithal or the mental mental capacity to be able to identify as trans their children That's why they have research says that you're wrong. I'm sorry. I want to go back. No the research The research says that you're wrong. I guarantee you we could go through your research and find all of the fucking Fuck it. No, let's do it. Let's do it. I'll get I'll get my entire dog I know that I look I know that I know that you want to go through with this shit because you're You've pivoted so fucking hard away from groomers after I've crushed your ass Let's go let's go back a little bit. You can tell when someone's winning when they have to say that they're winning Well, I mean, I've just made so many points. So you refuse to acknowledge and then you just call conspiracy theory But you still have you have to prove that anything is a conspiracy. Um, so let's go let's go back, right? Because the the question is whether or not Um, we're grooming children into an ideology that does Harm in some regard, right? Like that's like originally kind of what we were on Sure And I and I the reason I'm calling you with conspiracy theories is because I offered an explanation for why we're doing what we're doing That I think makes a lot more sense than yours Now and I I've really really wanted to say like why my explanation for why we're doing what we're doing is incorrect Why it's grooming it's very simple. It's very simple So I'll just give one of many of the things I stated in my opening statement Which is that the number one cited social scientists with over 480 thousand citations Over 100,000 citations on um pedagogy of the oppressed Is exists, right? Like that is the overwhelming majority body of research within sociology And somehow I came to my positions without reading it I came to my conclusions without reading it so engage with my positions Why is what I'm saying groom you're you're instantiating a philosophy, right? Of what philosophy the philosophy is that I wanted to be accepted that poor people exist It's fine to be gay. It's fine to be trans. That's my philosophy if you if you were if you're if that was your philosophy It is then you would be against the very things that I'm against So it's very clearly not your philosophy. You can say with your words You know my philosophy better than I do fantastic, right? But but what your action show and what you're debating and supporting Is you're debating and supporting the idea? Well, for example, you said in the last time we had a conversation um That there was nothing wrong with teaching kindergarten first and second graders about gender identity and gender expression And fourth graders and fifth graders about puberty blockers and aging Let's go. Let's go. Let's go those one at a time. Yeah, absolutely. So those that's so those are psychist is national sex education Yeah, so kids already know like when they come into kindergarten, they know what gender is or at least they have some sort of Concepts they might not be able to give you a cogent definition of it, but they know what boys are you got a definition now? They've been called girls. They they've seen girls. They've seen boys. They've seen all that stuff It's it's not this new information. You couldn't define it before I'm really okay. I can define it now. You want me to define gender before I got a lot of definitions Which one you want? I would hope that you prepared something, right? Yeah from Oxford either the two sexes, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological Once the term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female Yeah, there's gender. All right. I don't think I don't think it's I don't think it's a I don't think it's a the point in your favor that like meaningless say a meaningless definition So what's your what's your how would you explain gender to to a five-year-old? If they ask you what is a boy five-year-old? Yeah, what's a boy? I wouldn't try and I wouldn't try and adequately explain gender to a five-year-old Right, they know what like they've seen boys. They've seen girls They know there's some sort of difference there and they might have they're able to identify They're able to identify sexes based off of secondary sexual characteristics And they begin to understand a concept of gender roles based off of kind of what those So you're agreeing that those things are so that they do have a way with all to have some sort of like Conception of what these things are and if you were teaching that to them, you would teach it to them in a developmentally appropriate way I don't know why you thought that was a slain way is such a is such a fun Fun little thing that left us like to do right is they say developmentally appropriate Which is a nice like little escape boat to people that don't actually understand like eric erickson's You know sociocultural Developmental model or like pj's model like they just say the words developmentally appropriate and then everyone goes I must be developmentally appropriate despite the fact that in early adolescence, you've used the words developmentally inappropriate Right, is that also like a dog whistle or whatever? No, I like because i'm actually going to explain right like so despite the fact that in high school Right, this is the critical time in the sociocultural perspective of the developmental model for role confusion Versus identity and this is actually the time so the problem is is that we'd like to take our adult brains And we like to map our adult brains On to memories of ourselves as a teenager We like to think that we're a lot more adult when we're a teenager than we actually are But the the the central thing that people are struggling with from 14 to like 17 Is their identity and how they're going to identify themselves And if you introduce philosophy that confuses the ability to be able to understand categories or be able to actually meaningfully find themselves because you're Problematizing things and then creating a political critical democracy Through your cult indoctrination tactics that are in one third of elementary schools What you end up doing is you destroy their ability to meaningfully actually be able to develop healthily So when they say developmentally appropriate what they really mean is harming your children That's the big thing. All right. I caught it in my opening statement Like when they say developmentally appropriate, uh developmentally appropriate It seems like it has a reasonable meaning, but no it's actually this insidious meaning. That's what I said I caught it clogged it in the fucking opening statement We have reasonable reasons that we say but they seem too reasonable. So no it has to be some uh, again Conspiracy theory. It has to be something like top-down means of role confusion We want we specifically want to make life worse for children for some undisclosed reason Great, again, you keep you keep trying to fall on this conspiracy theory But you can't prove a conspiracy theory because I'm not putting forward a conspiracy I'm offering. I'm putting forward putting forward a philosophy. I'm putting forward the reasonable definition for why I want this seemed very very reasonable if this seemed like a much better explanatory Reason than what you're putting forth. All right, so you're doing the thing where the reasonable thing can't be true because it's too reasonable it has to be Insidious so so do you believe do you believe that we should get rid of social emotional learning? No, based on what I know, right? So so now you're unreasonable, right? Because you believe that we should You believe that we should have programs that target individuals That are seen to have too much bias towards individualism or have the wrong racial or sexual identities That target them specifically bring them forward put them in their fear zone And then can and then use tactics in order to tell to create a critical consciousness In those children so that they can be allies for a critical democracy. All right, so what does that look like? Okay, so why do you believe let's say let's say what does that specifically look like? What would that look like if you had like a I don't know we have a Fourth grader who said something homophobic. What does that look like for them? What is what does that even mean? I want to know like specifically what that looks like Yeah, what does that look like for like a fourth grader? Give me an example of what that would mean by that To count what is that what you just said make it make it make sense make it make it actually apply to a social Emotional social emotional learning is curricula. It's not how you deal with an individual. So give me an example of it I want to know what it looks like give you an example of social emotional learning in like curricula Give me a concrete example of what that looks like Yeah, I just described You described that I want a concrete example. I don't want okay So you so you want like I want me to like find like a video camera in the school footage of like I don't think it's unreasonable social emotional learning going. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to substantiate like Your point with an example. Just go just go to session is not like I said, just go to second step second step.com Cool. All right. I guess I'll do that. It seems like you should have had a An example You can see their curriculum and like what it is that they seem like you should have had like how they support diversity equity What are you talking about? Because I want to know like what it looks like I had this feeling that you'd be talking like in broad Generalities that have insidious connotations behind them and you have and when I try to look like, okay, so what does that look like on? What does that look like as a single second step? Second step has computer programs right that they put into classroom where they test you based off of your like empathy rating Sorry, my co is like gave me a note. I was like, yeah says go for the juggler He's mad at me for saying no, we're good. We're good. No second step has What they do is they bring in computer programs so that they can do psychometric tests on your children, right? and then what they do is they try and Find out who's like lacking how they define empathy Which really just is is kind of redefined within the critical consciousness perspective that they have so that teachers can then be Can then have the the resources so that they can go specifically towards that child and try and improve their scores By the end of the year by developing like greater understanding of allyship progressive political values Believe, you know more belief in like collective things that you know, they have Resources so that they can train like anti racism for these children and things like that so that they can specifically change Their opinion throughout the school year to more align with like a critical theory perspective or like a progressive or woke ideas, right? Sure. So one of those ideas would be like Homophobia is still a thing in society and we want to implement steps in order to reduce it I don't I want to know what what that looks like and in what does that look like that is this yeah, so let me let me find one Right. So like so here's some resources that um Second step has in terms of their support Committed to addressing racial injustice and helping drive real change in the school communities a focus on transformative social emotional Which if you read, uh, you know the the the um you read the um Fuck the article that I sent you right that has over 300 citations That was like the first like um, like idea of like what is tsc l right? And so like some of the resources that they have is um, you know, the national equity project So this is for um for school districts and administrators, right national equity program casal framework Um national technical assistance center and positive behavior interventions, right? So again teachers are doing psychological interventions. They're not really trained for and engaging in Things that only counselors and therapists should be doing Coaching on equity conversations that change practice You know anti-semitism uncovered the anti-defamation league And then so some resources for educators addressing anti-asian racism with students so that they can teach anti Anti-racism like critical race theory in school. Okay, if if if racism against Asians was a problem What is wrong with like trying to instruct kids to have more empathy and not be racist anymore? Well, there's a big there's a big difference between trying to have kids not be racist First of all, you shouldn't be trying to train children with uh, psycho like with um, psychological interventions So you're not trained to do um on children like you're more likely to cause problems You can require basic. Yeah. No, that's just not like no you don't create school curricula To get unqualified teachers to engage in what counselors and therapists should be Okay, well, even if even if you even if they were trained to do that, right? There's a big difference between Training empathy or training someone to like not be racist versus training anti-racist Right, like anti-racist baby in ibra max kindy, right? Like what we understand what anti-racism is is critical race theory It is it is it's not it's not Liberalism it's not like just accept us for who we are right and you keep talking about like these identities But again, you know what is being promulgated is not the acceptance of identities. It's over and over again I don't know how much I have to say this the research Um in in in all of academia is that it's an identity without in essence It's not identity like we have a very strong idea of what a trans person is it could be an umbrella term But there's like we have To you're just denying you're just denying the literature. I'm not denying the literature You're trying to make it out as insidious when no Gay men are a thing lesbians are a thing trans women are a thing trans men are a thing non-binary people are a thing all those have You know flexible definitions, but most definitions are flexible in some way Especially when it comes to as something as complex as social identity and categorizations There's always going to have some wiggle room and the entire debate has been I've put forth a reasonable Hypothesis is why we're trying why we're doing what we're doing and we want to normalize gay identities Normalize trans identities So it reduces stigma not only for the kids who are inevitably going to be gay or trans and trans kids do exist I don't know why you want to die on that hill, but also to make it normal for the people around them arguably That's more important. The homophobia is mostly coming from like other kids who do see it as weird And maybe and maybe but you're not engaging with the reality right like you're engaging with the ideas Different concepts of reality on the left right you're you're engaging with the idea that there is no grooming going on in schools Right, and that conservatives are just in a panic Except I present to you that massive amounts of evidence and literature and theory of of an idea of an education system that is Constantly it could not identify a single example I gave you I gave you so many resources and shit. You're yeah, and you couldn't think of a single concrete example Anyway, q&a So do we have closing statements or is it just go straight to q&a? Um, we were just going to straight to q&a usually. Um, you wanted to take a couple minutes Okay, great I feel like I gave like a massive amount of shit and you just didn't address any of it and pivoted the whole time So we're good Okay, just to remind everybody 100% of tonight's superchats are going to be going to the sexual assault center of counseling and education Which helps victims of sexual assault and that link is going to be in the description below As long as well as a watchdog rating. So Please let those super chats fly all that's going to be going to that charity And you know that james will be very willing to post any kind of receipts that you might request So with that let's go ahead and go to the q&a and the first question Comes in from destiny's crack dealer for ten dollars. They say Remember when jangles gave a pen to a dude at the conference and equated that to children tipping drag queens He wants to redefine the world. So grooming is normalized Sweet i'm being accused of being a pedophile. I guess uh, you know Because grooming doesn't have anything to do with being a pedophile, right? Yeah, actually i'm going to stand by that handing someone an object is not akin to sexualizing them If you have another The context was The context was like you're tipping someone like a stripper When that comes in your head, you mean that what comes to mind is like shoving dollar bills in g-strings No, what actually happened was handing a dollar bill to another person hand to hand They tried and somehow it's more reasonable say that that's sexualizing kids than it is to Accurately describe what it is which is Handing currency to another person. I mean I'd have to look at the situation specifically you're talking about But I think handing money at like a drag show type situation something like that would obviously be sexualizing. It's not It's not it's not. It's stupid You should really read up on drag pedagogy and like why why drag is being put in should really be able to Why drag is inherently sexual? Yeah, I mean it's an over exaggeration of sexual and secondary sexual characteristics and with a history of sexuality and uh, deviancy and it's very obvious There's that word. There you go, buddy That's from queer theory of five dollars That's what defines market outposts for five dollars They say children are not being shown that lgbt is a quote-unquote thing It's advertised as a party that has bonuses. You're missing out on if you don't participate sweet, that's I want I wanted that person to like just think about like how did I become gay? A lifetime of suppression lifetime of being told it's it's it's diseased. It's immoral. It's a sin It's deviant and yet still ended up being gay. I don't think these people I think they're like a scot. They don't think they're like gay kids or gay or trans kids exist And the only way that you can eventually become your trans stupid ass slander. I never said gay kids don't exist Okay, you said trans kids don't exist I said that children with gender dysphoria and the only way that kids don't exist is is is if they go through transition Which is inherently wrong So the enormous like a matter of suppression and of any sort of queer identity from the past like Centuries and centuries and century all that stuff is normal, but the second It's like, oh never mind. It's it's okay. Now all of a sudden that's like showing them that it's a super cool party And tricking kids into what again? Tricking them into what how does that like tricking them into being gay tricking them into trans How's that a social contagion by saying that it this is an option now now. It's a social contagion Yeah, so I would say that there are instances obviously where this is true, right? I mean we had like the schools in california I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head I'll have to get back to it where they like where they were finding specific children Like the emails got leaked from the teachers and they were finding specific children to target and separate them And then love bond them But like that's like kind of like a special circumstance, right? Like that's not like something that's happening everywhere in america. What what I do think is being advertised Um is a unique victim status and a certain Like a certain privilege that comes with like, you know adopting a queer bisexual identity And and that's obviously true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're turning the kids gay I think I think what we're really focusing on queer non-binary and bisexual Would you make the argument that queer people have not been victimized in society and are not currently being victimized to some degree? Would you make that argument all people all people are being victimized Do you think that queer people are uniquely victimized in in comparison to non queer people for being queer? I think all people based upon the differences that we have are uniquely victimized. This is a being queer Just like white people are uniquely victimized on the basis of being white just like black people are victimized on the basis of being black Being excellent non-answer excellent non-answer, you know the answer the answer is yes, obviously, okay, maybe we should Yeah, it's it's a stupid question. That's why I gave you the answer because all individuals that have differences Are are are victimized on the basis? They're different I literally from surgeon general Surgeon general has been a member for one year. Thank you so much surgeon general for ten dollars They say for the victims fund amazing So thank you again surgeon general and then from arcade outposts for five dollars They say throwback to that time the official black lives matter page talked about abolishing the family And then hastily changed it once people know. Oh, thank you for bringing that up. No, it didn't that's a lie The traditional nuclear family requirement. That was the operative word in that black lives matter page They didn't want to abolish the family. They said they wanted to abolish the requirement to live in a nuclear family So essentially yes, you can be two dads with a kid. You can be two moms with a kid That's what it meant. It's weird that it wasn't strong enough on its own. You had to lie about it Gotcha and thank you so much from captain v for five euros. They say for scott What term would you give for the phenomenon of the religious right teaching girls to be subservient to men? Hmm Probably grooming groomer. Yeah Got it and it depends on it depends on the the level right like I'd have to look at the like the actual case Right, but like if you're like if you're being Led through your religion to be like totally subservient, right? Like it like it depends on what you mean by subservient But under under like those extreme cases. Yeah, they're groomed Gotcha and then from samara for five dollars. They say jangles. Why don't we treat dysphoria like other psychiatric disorders? Where does the clinical prescription for transitioning come from? The research we do treat it like other disorders We see what the research tells us and follow the research and right now it seems that at least for some Children with gender dysphoria the best option for them is to socially transition and be supported in that identity Some of those kids are going to do better with puberty blockies puberty blockers Some are not and some of those kids who do really well on puberty blockers will eventually take cross-exformums And they it may eventually as adults pursue Sexual assignment surgery that seems what the research says it's not for everybody and we're not supposed to be we're not trying to be Flippant about it. We're trying to be very very careful because detransitioners are a thing We want to limit the amount of detransitioners. We don't want to harm kids But this is not new research gender dysphoria or as used to be known gender identity disorder has been like studied for a long Long time. This isn't new. This is what the research has been leading leading us up to Can I just interject? Sure Yeah, so no, we don't treat it the way that we do other disorders. It's very difficult for people to suggest You know that they use psychological interventions Yeah, you know, there's been very limited research on um, you know comparing uh, persistent consistent gender dysphoria and um individuals that um, you know It's actually a lot of research in those two. Um entire papers devoted to just that Shut the fuck up. Um So, um, yeah, so there's there's there's terrible forms of there's terrible methodology in a lot of this research Um, you you can see that there's very little interventions compared as a control group One of the things that we very rarely look into um, very limited research on is cluster b personality disorders specifically Uh, covert vulnerable personality disorder, which is a form of narcissistic personality disorder and the fact that cluster bs are extremely high in the um, in Individuals that identify trans Um, like there's just there's a ton. There's a ton of problems with the research The fact that you just suggested a non interventionist control group shows that you have no business Having any say on what the research for any sort of psychological disorder should be Yeah, I didn't but that's okay No, I'm talking about a control group of non intervention and then a control group of psychological intervention Over a period of time and then a control group of individuals. Um, so the control group of non intervention would be kids with Generous for you where you just don't do anything. Let them suffer That's what the control group would look like and there's a reason we haven't done that because it's a You can do self you can you can do self report surveys of individuals that have gone through that process And they have done that. They have done it. But that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about having another variable where you compare the outcomes of individuals that are identified for let's say I don't know cluster B personality disorders and they treat those as opposed to Automatically putting them into gym to reaffirming care or trying to get them to pass in some regard in other reasons So no, we don't treat it the same people are terrified of losing their license They're terrified of the api or the aca coming after them So do you agree that like these uh lawsuits that like prevent uh doctors from pursuing general affirmative care? Do you agree that those are an overstep for the government? After your response, baby, we're gonna move on. Uh, your jingles has the last word go ahead. No No, I think question I know I think I think anybody that is um preventing gender affirmative care for individuals Um over 18 such as in texas like yeah fucking like that's bullshit What the right, but um good for under 18. What the research says? Yeah, I'm not a consequentialist because I'm not a leftist Like I have principles, right? So I don't believe in Harming children's bodies physically promote the debate with someone that can't someone that can't and he's not prepared for it Okay, let's move on to the next question. Um from tiny batman for two dollars. They say jingles a boy is a prepubescent human male Okay, and then from arcade outpost for ten dollars. They say People don't have such a preoccupation with teaching grade schoolers about sex and gender when they still haven't figured out lines between fantasy and reality Unless there is an agenda Yeah, I told you what the agenda was to normalize it just I could see mommies and daddies. All right, and that's normal. I'm good. That should stay normal The kids might also start seeing daddies and daddies or just romantic relationships between two people of the same gender And we want that to be normal. That's the agenda. Now. Does that sound the agenda is teaching their philosophy Yeah, no, no Disappointment I said sound reasonable or the in pedophilic Exactly. So what I said sounded reasonable too reasonable. So it has to be marxist and pedophilic is the underlying philosophy I proved it. It drives it all I proved it. You didn't address any of my fucking points other than to say, yeah, gail rubin's wrong Who's oh, I don't know. Yeah, you proved my tool documents to clear you proved it Absolutely Good job Okay, uh ladies and gentlemen, we only have two more questions, uh on the super chat list So if you have any questions that you definitely want to hear be addressed by our speaker tonight Please go ahead and fire them in now. Remember a hundred percent of our super chats go to charity tonight So it's for a good cause don't hesitate. Uh from arcade outpost for ten dollars. They say people don't have I'm sorry. Just read that one. Uh, so only one more uh from samar route They say for ten dollars off topic, but is scott a big lord of the rings fan What are the debaters thoughts on the new ring of power show? raise a power So, uh, yes, I like that one to end on that's a good one I like I yeah, I like lord of the rings the books and the movies I think the uh books were great But I was I'm like not like a So meridian reading fucking nerd about it like I read the fellowship in the hobbit And I mean the trilogy in the hobbit like as a kid and I like it the joke is actually like the reason I have um bags in behind me is because it's like Several layers of like a joke in the community because I'm six five First of all, that's part of the joke. The second is that it's just greenery and it's kind of funny The next part is that like the shire was basically a libertarian anarchist community That you know respected private property rights and only had limited councils Very rarely um, and then um, and then just like the general nerd shit. So it's just like multiple layers So I tend to have bags in behind me sometimes Okay And then we have another super chat from neon gul for five dollars. They say What's up with the disdain in the trans slash lgbtq and other minority groups towards those in their community That have different views for example D trans people the trans people There are some people who are uh unfairly mal who unfairly maligned d trans people the correct And the reason they do that is because a lot of d trans people will use like their own experiences to categorically Reject and prevent anyone else from achieving gender affirming care Now when a d trans person does that that is bad. They deserve to be attacked on those ideological grounds. However, a lot of D Transitioners are not like that and they should be supported Some people make mistakes sometimes medical institutions make mistakes And they should be absolutely be supported because the ultimate goal is for happy and healthier people And sometimes you're going to get it wrong and those people deserve support They deserve empathy and it's unfair and it's unfair to categorically decide that all d trans people are bad I don't think that happens a ton. I do think most of the disdain the malice Goes towards people who because they uh because transitioning didn't work out for them Then no one should be allowed to do it and I think that it's worth criticizing as long as you know You don't group all d trans people into that Yeah, so um, I've spoken with a lot of d trans people You know kind of friends with richie tulip are And you know, I did a panel with quite a few shape shifter and chloe coal and stuff like that And you know, um, I think what it really is mostly is that a lot of trans people I would say get wrapped up in gender ideology, right? Not all of them. Obviously, you know, they're people like buck angel that are not wrapped up into that ideology Um, you know, and then, you know, people like Blair white that obviously aren't in that ideology because they're Prominent right wing the good ones, right? Um, I mean Sure, if that's how you want to do it And there's a reason there's a reason the members of my own group There's a reason the members of my own community is getting really really popular on the right My violinopolis was really really popular because he was gay. Am I shitting on gay people? But otherwise really popular in the right wing because you guys every time I make a point every time I make a point You can't shut the fuck up Oh hush for a second I didn't interrupt you while you made your point, right? And so what I would say is that um What occurs is that detrains people often Have like some type of experience that pulls them out of the ideology And you know, there's no one that is able to see the cult more Then someone that was in the cult and so a lot of transgender people that are wrapped up in this ideology They're getting a kind of narcissistic supply Um from from people that are constantly beautifying and constantly, you know, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of Pernicious things in there, right? There's a lot of you know individuals that might have like auto-gynophilia And there's like sexual like problems within that are occurring in this Um, and and so what ends up happening is that when detrans people come out They start talking about the cult because they're the people that are most likely to have been harmed by it Right, they're the people like like look at someone like chloe coal, right? Like they're they're not what you might categorize as quote unquote true trans if that is a thing Um, and yet they were they were they were swept up in the indoctrination And in the cult and in the love bombing and all the support and all the social anxiety and problems And you know, they were able to like, you know, you know very easily and quickly get gender affirming care And you know attach their obsessive disorders like ocd or adhd or autism You know to um to gender ideology into the process of transitioning and more often than not They have these surgeries that deeply harm them and so they break out of that cult And once they break out of the cult they start talking against the cult and there are a large contingent of people Especially online very loud, you know, kind of activist types Not the types that kind of just want to live their life and like and pass and like, you know Go about normal life without being like engaged in the politics of it all Um, that you know come after them hard Do you think the constant validation that the detransitioners get from anti trans advocates and terfs and just straight up trans folks might influence their opinion Can indoctrination go that way? The biggest study on detransitioners performed by lisa lippin the progenitor of the rogd myth Recruited people from terf websites and and even though that she was recruiting the people who are most likely to be harmed Most likely to be rushed into transitioning almost as many people said that they were pushed to detransition that they were Persuaded not to transition that were experienced transphobic abuse Almost as many people said that and these are detransitioners as the people who are that you're talking about the people who were pressured to transition So can you indoctrinate someone out of being trans? Okay, I mean Yeah, I certainly think that it's possible obviously, right like if you can be if you can be indoctrinated to go one direction right then you obviously it's possible to be indoctrinated to go in the other direction The problem with that is that it's you know We have a we have a much bigger problem within the last decade And so much of this research is going to be Centered around individual like when we look at like what is the average like persistence rate like we're talking about like Seven years I think for for male to female Desisting and it's something like four or five for for a female to male And so like you know the data just isn't there to capture Individuals that have been part of this like new wave of social contagion So we can have so we can have a better understanding of like what indoctrination has done in terms of detransmit community Well, this might comfort you all those assistance statistics that come from gender clinics So it's very obvious they're not pushing people at the drop of a hat to pursue medical transitioning That's where those stats come from. So hopefully that's a It's irrelevant to what I said from Leslie Flemons for five dollars. They say jangles. Have you heard of the term? MAPs minor attractive persons. And if so, how do you feel about it? I'd hate them minor attractive persons. Fuck them No, wait, let me choose my words carefully there. Fuck them as in like dismiss them. All right Yeah See those are actual like groomers. Those are actual people who actually want to advocate for pedophilia Why isn't there some tick tock going after them? Like why are we talking about them? Those are actually they do pedophiles. They do. I don't see it Lives a tick tock. They're mostly focused on the queer stuff, man Okay, currently our last super chat on the list right now Samara for $10 they say for both debaters Approximately what proportion of homosexual or trans identity is predicated by genetics versus the environment? It's like asking like Yeah, it's like asking like is the length or width of a rectangle more indicative of its area Like you can't I mean like it's well, I mean like Well, the problem is we just don't have the data like we may eventually one day have that data But like we're technologically way way behind on that The best and then and then and the problem is is like the data is getting even worse because now Add like epigenetics like we know very little about epigenetics The best data that we have does suggest that you cannot meaningfully Change someone's sexuality or gender identity, especially not to a large degree. You can't meaningfully change it So if a lot of people will confuse like genetic versus environmental to mean like choice versus not choice That's not the case I'm pretty comfortable saying that it is not a meaningful choice that people decide so The data seems to suggest that there's more fluidity for females, right? Um, especially than males and like We have a very kind of like we have a very I could say, um I don't want to say sophomore. Uh, I don't know the quiet term but very early Kind of understanding of sexual imprinting and males and like how that leads to paraphernalic disorders Versus like sexuality and things like that and to what degree those two things are different I do think when it comes to like sexuality, it's it's it's probably more inherent than paraphernalic disorders Um, and so like and so even that becomes problematic because of our lack of understanding But it does we it does seem to suggest that sexuality is a little bit more fluid for females in general, right? like, you know Distribution, you know distribution at all. Um, then it is for males Got you Surgeon general send another super chat for ten dollars for our this is from our wonderful Moderator heat shield for the charity. Thank you brother Amazing. So once again, thank you again super general surgeon general and heat shield. Thank you so much so that's the end of our Super chat list. I will go ahead and move to the uh non super chat list from you dehef. I can't pronounce his last name. I'm so sorry, but uh, they ask um Education about sexual assault. What is the woke groomer organization? What is this woke groomer organization? What I don't understand the question. I'm sorry Education about sexual assault what? Oh, is that like the charity you're supporting is that was that a joke? Um, it was much earlier than debate. I can't even remember the uh, that might have been a joke facetiously calling your the charity you're supporting a groomer Organization. Yeah, I don't fucking know So sorry for ruining your joke. Um from atomic for ten dollars They say can't we at least agree that nobody is talking about explicit sex with children saying homosexual slash transgender people exist Is not the quote-of-quote grooming or indoctrination. It's asserted to be by right wing news No, we all agree to that No, okay I mean, is it large scale like we're like like in schools or something? No, of course not but like obvious like I mean teachers don't have an increased or a decreased rate of sexual assault than Then like than any other category, right? Um, so obviously there's going to be legitimate pedophiles in any in any place Um, when you say like what we're talking about like yeah, some of the founders are absolutely talking about that but even those the majority of queer theorists and founders are talking about um You know, some of them are talking about like, you know, um, gail rubin for example is specifically advocating, you know sexual sex between You know adult men and children. Um, but for the most part they're talking. They're really that's not really the goal The goal is destruction of category and boundaries I did a little bit of research on gail and A later interview talking about that said that no that's misconstruing what she was arguing That's absolutely not the case You go rethinking sex. It's a founding document Like I think like there's something like some really really specifics like if a 19 year old and a 17 year old Engaging sexual intercourse we can that might be creepy depending on the circumstances, but we can say that's meaningfully different than like A 10 year old right they can both be wrong, but they're not the same thing right As the resident libertarian i'm not getting into this Oh, yeah, I bet you have very interesting ideas on age of consent debates. Yeah, I know this is fucking It's a stupid conversation age of consent should be 24. There you go Okay, okay from a junk shop library. They say, uh, they know they missed the opening Statements, but they want to know is there a reason neither person arguing has their pronouns on the screen or in the description I should I should have put mine. They're he him Minor I think the whole I think the whole pronoun thing is stupid Mike If you want to fucking if someone like if someone has different pronouns and they're trying to pass as a different gender You know then fucking if they're not an asshole respect their pronouns at the same time this idea of like Come together for the pronoun game and like, you know, like it's somehow wrong that I don't present my pronouns I think you can get from what i'm saying that I probably go by he him Right, like I think it's just a silly thing All right, and we got one more minute left of the clock. So uh from pa mo 316 um Question for fabian do you make the conscious choice not to answer direct questions or is it a reflex? Um, I didn't I didn't not answer any direct questions I just I understand the bullshit that's packaged into the question. So I answer the question appropriately Like when when jingles is asking me if queer people are attacked on the basis of their queer identity I'm saying I think that I said I think that all demographics are you know at some level are attacked off of their differences Uh, if you had he wants to make it a unique victim Yeah, if you had to guess on the basis of like sexuality Do you think straight people are attacked more or gay people are attacked more on the basis of their sexuality? If you had to guess her capita, right? Because obviously yeah per capita. Yeah, that's a larger group And when we don't even have to be like physical attacks just like impugned historically or now I don't know that I don't know that both. I don't know historically without a fucking doubt Um, lgbt people have been attacked sweet. See how you talking about now If you're talking about now, I don't know that it would be statistically significant Dude, I doubt it would third of the country still thinks that I shouldn't be able to be married Who who thinks that straight people should be able to get married? Don't equate those two. Come on. You know better, but thank you for finally directly answering your question I don't it's all right So that is the end of the question and answer section. We have all the questions. Thank you all for your questions Um, I would apologize to you Fabian for that last one I feel like I probably should have censored that one, but I didn't have a chance to read it before I Read it out loud. So give a fuck. Hey, man. I made like 20 arguments that uh, jangles ran away from so I'm okay with a single answering answering direct questions with direct answers that he doesn't like Yeah, I don't like your answers because mine make more sense We have competing ideals of reality of what's more explanatory of phenomena. I think mine's reasonable and yours is moon logic 480,000 citations my friend Mm-hmm Hopefully you both will join me in the after show which is linked in the description below Everybody if you would like to uh, see the conversation continue It's going to be an open mic section as well So I will allow for one person in the audience to join at a time for a few minutes at a time as well But before we go, I just want to say thank you to the moderators in the chat Thank you to james for creating this platform Thank you to everybody the audience and especially thank you to the debaters who are the lifeblood of the show Like it if you loved it share it if you want to spread it and subscribe Is there are plenty more juicy debates coming your way that you don't want to miss? So once again, thank you everyone and remember to keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable Everybody have a great night All right