 This week on the anxious truth, we're going to talk about why in the context of things like recurring panic attacks, panic disorder, or agoraphobia, avoiding anxiety triggers might seem like a good idea, but it actually makes things worse in the long run. So let's get into that right now. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is episode number 284 of the podcast. Today we're going to talk about why avoiding anxiety triggers and panic triggers might seem like a good idea, but it's actually not and it can make things worse in the long run. This is actually episode number four and our foundations of panic series, which is a little mini series here on the podcast of the YouTube channel that's targeted at newer members of the community. So if you're just starting to experience panic or panic attacks, you really don't know what's going on. You're trying to get a grip on that. You're trying to get some good evidence-based, well vetted sort of expert advice and information about what's happening to you. Then the foundations of panic series is definitely for you. And if you've been around for a while and you're a long-term viewer or listener of the podcast, thank you for giving me some space to help the newer members of the community. I really do appreciate that. I am Drew Linsolata. I'm creator and host of the anxious truth. It is January 31st of 2024. And as of today, I am a therapist and training in the state of New York in the United States, specializing or attending and specialized in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm an author on this subject with multiple bestselling books on anxiety and anxiety recovery. I'm a podcaster, as you can see. I'm an educator. And I'm also a past sufferer of panic disorder, agoraphobia, probably diagnosable OCD at several times and depression for many, many years in my life on and off. So not only am I speaking from professional academic and sort of book knowledge here, but I'm also speaking from my own lived experience. So keep that in mind to actually do know what this stuff feels like. So today, we're going to talk about why avoidance would seem like a good idea. And it seems like a common sense thing to do because nobody wants to feel bad. But in the end, when we're talking about chronic and disordered anxiety, especially those things that are driven by panic and panic attacks, why it's actually counterintuitive, it doesn't make sense. It's not a good idea to avoid. So sort of let's get into that. When you are afraid of how you feel, which is really sort of the underlying principle underneath all chronic forms of anxiety and anxiety disorders that are panic driven, you become afraid of the panic itself. You become afraid of the anxiety itself. The anxiety itself, it's actually natural to want to prevent that from happening. You want to look for ways to keep your anxiety from being triggered, and you certainly don't want to trigger panic. Like that is the foundation of avoidance in our context, right? You're trying to identify all of your anxiety and panic triggers, and you're trying to find ways to avoid them so that you don't feel those sensations and those thoughts and have those emotions and those mental responses and physical responses that scare you so damn much. I get that. Before we get into that, let's talk about why avoidance as a universal concept isn't necessarily always bad. Like human beings learn to avoid things that truly are dangerous in many situations, avoidance can actually keep us safe. In certain circumstances, avoidance can be a strategy that helps us find, say more effective, safer or lower energy and more productive solutions to actual problems. So avoidance isn't always a bad thing universally speaking, but in our context, chronic and disordered anxiety, well, avoidance can in fact be a problem because it seems like a good idea in the moment, but it turns out that it's not. And I need you to remember that in this series, Foundations of Panic, we've talked quite a bit about how the thoughts and sensations and emotions that come with anxiety, high anxiety and panic attacks are certainly really scary and disturbing. Well, you've talked about how it certainly feels every bit like you're in actual danger and need to save yourself, but we've also talked about how you really are safe at all times. You're just really afraid and uncomfortable. It's important to remember this concept and hang on to that as we go through these discussions. So if there was an actual threat or danger present, then avoidance, like we said, might actually be a good idea. But when there is no actual danger or threat, only fear and discomfort, because in our context, fear and discomfort can exist without an actual threat or danger being present, then avoidance probably will make you feel better right away in the moment, but it fuels a cycle that ultimately starts to make things worse, which doesn't make any sense. So let's kind of break that down. How does avoidance make you feel better in the moment, but make things worse? When you avoid the things that trigger your anxiety or your panic, you avoid your triggers, you avoid circumstances, situations, tasks, places, people that might trigger you into that anxious state that you fear and hate so much, you are confirming to your lizard brain, which is just a funny term. I know that isn't entirely accurate. If they're evolutionary biologists in the room, I get it. I miss using that term. But if you trigger, you are literally confirming to your lizard brain, the lower part of your brain, your limbic system, the amygdala, and all those associated lower brain structures, you're confirming to that part of your brain that, yeah, something really is wrong, and we really do need to escape or get away from these feelings. Because remember, in our context, we're not escaping the supermarket, for instance, we're escaping how we feel in those situations. So if you avoid the things that trigger the things that you don't want to feel physically, mentally, emotionally, then you are confirming to the lower part of your brain that, yeah, these are problems, and we need to get away from them at all costs. So if we operate from the assertion that the lizard brain, the lower part of your brain, thinks that it's just doing its job, keeping you safe, but is always wrong about how dangerous those feelings are, then when you obey the command to avoid things or get away from things or escape from things that might make you anxious or trigger panic, you are literally rewarding that part of your brain for being wrong, and you're asking it to continue to sound those alarms, and you're asking it to continually trigger feelings of extreme fear and discomfort, even when that extreme fear and discomfort is not an appropriate response to what is actually going on around you or even inside of you. So when you avoid, you are asking your amygdala, the lower part of your brain, to continue to do what it's doing. It thinks it's keeping you safe. It's doing what it's designed to do, and when you obey its commands to escape and avoid, then you are telling it, cool, good job, let's keep going down this path. It will just keep firing off alarms and it will keep triggering that cascade of horrible physical sensations and thoughts and emotions that are super scary, super uncomfortable, super disturbing, aren't actually dangerous, but those are the things that are actually causing your problem, the internal experience of how you feel. So in the next sort of Foundation to Panic episode, which I guess would probably be episode 285 of this podcast, we're going to talk about triggers and why everything becomes a trigger and the idea that your nervous system has become air quotes, dysregulated, keep that in mind for the next episodes, and we're really going to sort of challenge that. Is it, you know, I have to avoid my triggers, I must avoid because my nervous system is dysregulated. Many people will operate from that assumption, but we're going to challenge that a little bit in the next episode. So just keep that in mind as we go. Is your nervous system really dysregulated or is it just following your lead and running because you keep asking it to tell you to run? Just something to think about as we go forward in this particular episode. It also avoidance also makes things worse because as you avoid and get rewarded in the moment with an instant but temporary sort of lowering or decrease of your fear, discomfort, and anxiety levels, you teach yourself that more and more places, people, tasks, situation, context must be avoided at all costs. So for instance, if you panic in the car, you stop driving over time. If you panic in the supermarket, you stop going there. If you panic in a restaurant, well then you might refuse to eat out in restaurants with your friends and families going forward. Did you panic in a movie theater? Well, you might decide that you should never, ever go to the movies ever again. Here's what makes that even worse. If you panic or feel really anxious or uncomfortable, say in a movie theater, as an example, not only does avoiding the movie theater or the movies seem like it becomes a good idea to your lizard brain, but that avoidance will often generalize into situations that are like the movies where you're trapped in the middle of the aisle and you can't easily escape, where there's a big crowd and everybody's quiet and they'll see you if you panic. So it becomes a really nasty cycle and a nasty process where the more things you avoid, the more you teach yourself that you must avoid them and over time, the smaller and smaller your life can start to become, more full of restrictions your life can start to become. So if you are going down this road and you feel like you keep identifying different things that trigger your anxiety or your panic and you start to build a life where you avoid those things, then you may already notice that your life is being ruled by anxiety or fear-based restrictions. Your life might be getting smaller and smaller and that leads to developing things like panic disorder and agoraphobia over time. And if you want more information on that, you could check out, I have two workshops that are on my website. One is called Panic and Tax Explained and the other one is called Agoraphobia Explained. Those are on my website at theanxistruth.com. You could check those out. Or you can check out episode 152 of the Anxious Truth Podcast, which is on your favorite podcast app or if you're here on YouTube watching on my YouTube channel. And while you're listening to the podcast or watching here on YouTube, maybe consider leaving a five star rating for the podcast or writing a quick review if you really dig it, because it helps more people find it and then more people can help. And of course, if you're watching here on YouTube as I'm looking into this camera, I'm looking at you. Maybe hit the like button on this video. If you're liking the video so far or consider subscribing to the channel, first leave a comment if you're interested. I always like to hear from you guys. So thank you for that. Now, at this point, this is where you start to get that like, wait a minute, what is this guy talking about? I get that. You know, what is he saying here? He's saying that I'm not supposed to avoid my triggers. That's crazy. How could this guy say this? I just need to address that because I'll always come back to addressing these things because everybody's personal process has to be respected in this situation. So this is where things get kind of dicey for people sometimes. If you find that what I am saying here, that avoiding your triggers is actually a bad thing in the long run. If you're finding that that somehow offends you or just rubs you the wrong way, I totally understand. When I provide this kind of psychoeducational material that's focused on breaking the avoidance habit and turning toward fear, sometimes people get really upset. And I understand that because you might be really uncomfortable. You might feel like you're suffering or struggling right now. You're coming for help and you have this crazy guy from New York telling you that you're supposed to go toward that struggle. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Sometimes people have told me that I've never actually experienced panic or that I'm lying about my own mental health history because there's no way that I would tell people to face panic if I ever actually felt it. I understand that response. I really do. Sometimes people will say that I just don't know what I'm talking about or I'm trying to scam them somehow or I'm feeding them ridiculous information. If you are having that response right now to this sort of information, I completely get that. It's okay. I'm not taking it personally. You can't offend me. And I think it's always important to say if you're not at a point where this type of information or this approach resonates with you, you don't think it's right for you or you think it's offensive to you or it's invalidating to you in some way. I'm not meaning to validate you or make you feel that way, but it's also okay to maybe either switch off the podcast or turn off the video and walk away from the podcast of the channel. Maybe forever or maybe for a while. It's okay to do that. Everyone kind of gets there when they get there in their own way. Every mental health professional has to acknowledge and I believe has to acknowledge and respect that process. So if this information doesn't seem right for you right now, it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It doesn't mean you're broken. It doesn't mean that like, I'm a horrible person for saying it. It just means that you might not be interested in this or ready for this right now. Take however much time you need. I'm gonna support you no matter what. I'm always gonna cheer for you. And I just need to say that all the time because I think it's really important that doesn't get said enough. So if we operate from the assumption that avoidance is a bad thing in the long run and we want to try and get rid of that, then what are we left with here? We're left with facing the fear. It's like the opposite of avoidance. That sort of means that you start to have to embrace the idea that you have to do the unthinkable. Like, wait a minute. When I have a panic attack, I feel like I'm going to die. I feel like I'm going to go insane. I feel like I'm in real danger. I feel like something horrible is going to happen. Feel like, feel like, feel like, there's no way I should go towards that. But unfortunately, breaking the avoidance habit to avoid making things actually worse over time means intentionally turning toward panic and fear and uncertainty and discomfort and all of the things that come along with those things. It means allowing them. It sort of means choosing to willfully tolerate it. If you guys listen to Disorder the podcast that I do with Josh Fletcher, you hear willful tolerance all the time. It means choosing to willfully tolerate those things to practice, to learn how to do that. And it means surrendering to them. Now, that's a word that sometimes gets people really riled up because when I say surrender to your anxiety, some people will hear, oh, you're telling me that I just have to surrender to the idea that I'll be anxious and afraid forever. Well, it doesn't mean that. It means that you're learning to give up the fight and avoidance and escape rituals and behaviors are actually resistant to anxiety and they are part of the fight. And as ridiculous and silly as this sounds, if you're watching this video or listening to this podcast episode because you're struggling with things like chronic or recurring panic attacks or you've developed agoraphobia or you have another anxiety disorder, it's actually the fight that's making things worse. And you can't conceptualize anxiety as an enemy that you must vanquish in a war. You have to start to look at the process of anxiety recovery, not as a war that you're fighting but as a classroom that you're in where you get to teach your brain lessons that get you out of sort of the pit that you might be stuck in right now. So when we say turn toward the fear, it doesn't mean turn toward it to fight it and vanquish it with your flaming sword. It means turn toward the fear and sort of stop the fight so that you can learn that you never had to fight it to begin with. There's a lot there, right? I'm feeding, I'm throwing a lot at you here. So yeah, if you are choosing to go that route and you're dismantling your avoidance behaviors, then you're choosing to fully experience things that really scare and disturb you and make you really uncomfortable. But remember always that we're always talking about things that feel really scary and dangerous but are not. You're always actually safe here. So it's important to always keep in mind that that's the magic part of this. When we choose to break our avoidance habits and say, okay, I'm not going to avoid anymore, I'm going to go the opposite way and turn toward my fear, you're essentially choosing to have those full scary experiences because you can feed those experiences down to the lower parts of your brain because experience is all it speaks. It doesn't understand words. It doesn't understand inspirational memes. It doesn't understand song lyrics. It doesn't understand poetry. It doesn't understand words at all or language. It only understands experience. What you're doing here is you're leveraging the principle of being afraid, but still safe to feed your lower brain experiences that teach it that, oh, wait a minute here. We're wrong about this. We don't have to keep firing off these alarms and alerting and triggering fear and discomfort and all the sensations and all those kinds of things. So when you're doing that, you're teaching your brain through experience. There's a method to that madness, if you will, pardon the mental health pun, but you're doing it so that you can learn. That's why I say dropping avoidance is about sort of surrendering the fight and turning your recovery not into a warp in a classroom. Very important. Hard to put your brain around though sometimes. That's why I gave you the whole spiel about if you're not ready for that, I understand. So I get that this is a lot to take in, but I also understand that at this point, if you've hung in this long, you're saying, okay, cool, so now tell me what to do. The problem here is that we can't cover that sort of thing in a single video or a single podcast episode. Keep that in mind. And really I want you to keep in mind that when you hear things like, oh, I get it, this is feel the fear and do it anyway, or this is just do it, or this is mind over matter, it can be easy to accidentally glue yourself to those sort of cliched explanations. And there are actually methods and principles to follow along the way. It's not as simple as that. And while those sort of cliches that kind of encapsulate this aren't entirely wrong, they're not completely wrong, they are woefully inadequate to describe the nuances of the recovery process and how it actually works. Don't glue yourself to just do it, man, because that is a gross oversimplification and it can accidentally lead you into frustration, anger, feeling like you're hopeless, you're never going to get it. This won't work for you. And you start to judge yourself negatively if you do that. So just do it isn't entirely wrong. Feel the fear and do it anyway. It isn't entirely wrong, but there's so much more to this. So all of the podcast episodes and videos I've ever done in The Anxious Truth are talking about how to do that in some way, right? So there's a ton of information. There's a ton of nuance. There's a ton of principles. There's a lot of different things to learn, to start to understand, to wrestle with. It takes time. If you're new to this game and you're watching the Foundation to Panic series because you're new to this, I know you're hoping that I'm going to now tell you in three more minutes how to overcome this, but it doesn't really work that way. If we're going to break the avoidance cycle and start to go toward the things that we fear, so that we teach our brains that we didn't have to fear them to begin with and that it's okay to be uncomfortable and afraid and that we can handle that, there are particular ways that we go about doing that. They're not magic. I didn't invent any of them. These are things that have been clinically proven over many, many years and refined over decades, but it's not as simple as just like, okay, let me just run toward my fear. It doesn't actually work that way. So what I would urge you to do is avail yourself of the other 280-something podcast episodes and videos that I published over time. Yeah, it's a lot of content to consume, but there's also a lot to learn. There's a lot of concepts to kind of mull over. There's a lot of concepts for you to wrestle with before you come to grips with it, and that's not wrong because everybody wrestles with these concepts. Everybody. So you have to kind of go through that process. Listen to the podcast episodes. Follow me on social media. All the links are on my website at theanxistruth.com. Listen to the disordered podcast that I do with Josh Fletcher that comes out every Friday. There's a lot of good information there. Maybe consider the workshops that I have in my website. You can find those all on theanxistruth.com or the book that I've written, I specifically wrote a very long, almost 400-page book that details this process for people who have things like panic disorder or agoraphobia. It's a lot. It's not a tiny little pamphlet. There's no reason why that's a big book. You might want to check that out if you'd like to. But there's a ton of free information also that can help you get started with that. The bottom line here is that you have to understand that while avoidance might seem to make sense right now, you may already be finding that you're running out of things to avoid. There's a limit to how much that process can help you, and the process of avoidance can actually make the hole get deeper instead of helping you get out of it. And if we're going to get better, we have to recognize this. We have to come to grips with the idea that avoidance really isn't the way, and we have to work on breaking the avoidance habit, turning around and starting to go toward the fear in a particular way that I've just published a ton of information on how to do. So I've thrown a lot at you today. I hope at least the concept of how avoidance fits into this has sunk in a little bit. Maybe it's something you have to chew on or think about a little bit. Of course, if you're watching on YouTube and you want to leave a comment below and ask a question, I'm more than happy to hear it because I will circle back and answer those and try to get involved in that conversation as much as I possibly can, as time allows. But I will see all the comments and I will try to answer as many as I can. So if you have questions, YouTube is a good place to do that for sure. And in the next Foundations of Panic series, which I think will be in about two weeks, I'm going to do that one next, we're going to talk about that dysregulation of your nervous system. And we're going to look about, look at how for many members of our community, the idea that everything can be a panic trigger becomes surfaces, comes right up to the forefront. And it may lead you to say, well, there's clearly a problem, everything triggers me because my nervous system is dysregulated. Then I really look at that and we're going to dismantle that a little bit and provide maybe an alternative view that can be helpful as you go forward. So look for that one coming up in two weeks because I publish podcast episodes every two weeks. I hope this has been really helpful to you in some way. I hope you can apply it in some way. I hope it encourages you to consume more of the free content that I have out there or maybe check out workshops or books or courses or whatever. Maybe you're working with a therapist and you can bring this into therapy. That would be awesome. I'm a huge, huge fan of professional help. Obviously, I'm a therapist and training myself. And yeah, thanks for the time. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. I hope it's been really helpful. And I will see you in the next one.