 Hi everybody, welcome back and this is Paul Kengor your host for this regular podcast series which we've been doing monthly for Tan Books and we've done several of these now. We had Bob Moynihan, Kerry Gress among others and today we've got a special guest, Patrick O'Hearn who is the editor. He's the new editor for Tan Books and he's also an author. He's got this great new book called Parents of the Saints and let me tell you that just because this is sponsored by Tan and he's the editor, no one asked me to do this. I heard about this book, I read this book and I said, Patrick we got to have you on to talk about this. He's very humble as you'll see and he's probably thinking, why would anybody even want me on the show? Why would anybody want to hear about this book? But it's important and it's a very good book. So Patrick, welcome, good to have you here. Thank you, Paul. It's a pleasure to be here. So let's, before we talk about the book, tell us about yourself. You've got a very interesting story, I mean one of the things that I like to focus on in these podcasts that Tan Books is all about is making people saints and bringing people into the church and this is above all of course, first and foremost, a Catholic publishing house. So we're interested in people's spiritual paths and backgrounds. So tell us where you're from and where you came from, tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are now. Sure, sure thing. So I was actually born in Bismarck, North Dakota and I'm the youngest of three boys and so my dad's job, my dad worked for John Deere and we kind of got transferred around a lot and ended up spending about 18 years in Illinois and then when my dad retired we ended up moving to Ohio, both my parents are from Ohio and so then I was in Ohio for a few years and then I ended up joining a Benedictine monastery for about three years, kind of discerned my vocation there and then eventually God led me out of that vocation and then I went to a Franciscan university in Steubenville and I was doing some graduate work there and met my lovely wife there and then kind of ended up in North Carolina where I'm currently at, kind of so I'm blessed with a one son and then we have two children in heaven and then through God's providence, you know, I just this position, you know, working for TAN it opened up, I started a publishing company called Contemplative Heart Press where I've done a few books on miscarriage in a children's book and so just really an answer to prayer to to work at TAN, I've always admired TAN books as a young boy, read the lives of the saints and so just I was kind of praying to Novena to our lady and you know and that's how this position came up, really it was kind of miraculous to have this role and so that's kind of a little bit about me. All right, well okay there's a lot there, so you went up in Illinois, were you in Peoria? I'm guessing maybe. Yeah, I was actually in Molina, Illinois, so an hour and a half from Peoria and you know actually in this book Parents of the Saints, you know, I talk about venerable phone sheen's parents, you know, I love phone sheen, have you spent some time in Peoria? I have and I'm going to be there again in August, yeah and I've been to El Paso, Illinois, which is the tiny little town that phone sheen is from and that whole area I've got kind of a shameless self-promotion in the background there, Ronald Reagan and John Paul II, one of my books I've opened to president, Ronald Reagan and phone sheen both came from that same area and I gave a talk at the Peoria Museum, Peoria it's Peoria Riverfront Museum which is run by my good friend John Morris who ran the Ronald Reagan Society in Eureka College, Eureka College is the one of the most important college and I gave a talk there on Fulton Sheen and Ronald Reagan in that area and you'll appreciate this Patrick, but the I remember giving a talk to a Lugatus group, I think or some Catholic group in Philadelphia and talking to this big group about Fulton Sheen, about Fulton Sheen, I get to talk on Fulton Sheen and Ronald Reagan, same talk I gave in Peoria and this guy comes up to me from Philly and he's you know kind of a tough Philly guy and he says hey you know we think we're so cool here from the northeast and everything but here you got the two greatest communicators of the 20th century, a priest and a president and they both come from like little northwestern towns in Illinois right and so so yeah that's um that that area has some amazing history people don't appreciate it and you get in your car and drive through it it's all completely flat and and yet you had people there like Fulton Sheen that that end up major celebrities right he was a celebrity priest but but indeed yeah I know that you that you wrote about him here so that's one thing I want to ask you about the so Illinois you end up you and at a Franciscan first and then the Benedictines right sorry the Benedictines first then I discerned out yeah yeah okay so I joined the Benedictines right out of you know I spent a year working in a large community to help with people's special needs I lived in their home kind of took care of them and uh and then after that year then I you know there's a monastery close by and went there and then after about I was about there three years I felt the Lord saying you know this isn't your your calling and you know it was kind of difficult for me because I always thought I would I kind of thought I'd be like a hidden brother for the rest of my life that was kind of like my goal I love like blessed Andre who I are saying Andre who I talk about in here and you know it's and how God kind of sometimes he changes our desires and a lot of these saints too in the in the book that we'll get to in a second I'm sure you mentioned but you know how like Saint Therese's parents they wanted to be religious and God had another plan so yeah so after the monastery I ended up going to Franciscan University and can you say where the monastery was or would you rather not yeah yeah I know it was uh St. Andrew Abbey in Cleveland okay interesting and so three years there and so you decided ultimately that that wasn't your calling right and that's right so you went to Franciscan which are last guests Kerry grass as well right went to went to Franciscan I have a son Franciscan currently in the master's program so so you were there for four years bachelor's degree you know actually I did so I'm master's of education so I was there about a lot two years so okay all right and you and you have your wife there as well I did him okay and then and then so after that did you go straight into publishing did you start your own you know I didn't I actually so I went into uh I went I was a school I actually work with high functioning autistic students so I have an ant with down syndrome and I've always loved people's special needs I went I went there teaching I love teaching and then I realized I really you know with student debt and being a teacher you know it was really difficult you know we wanted to have a family and so then I went my under my undergrads in marketing I went to St. Ambrose University in Iowa and so so I kind of went with my business background I see and went back into sales for about five years and then in the meantime while I was doing sales I was I was writing I would spend most of my evenings you know it's kind of really the Holy Spirit gave me a gift for writing because you know I was I was joking it's like the two things I've dreaded the most in life were speaking and writing and somehow God kind of like he's like okay well you know I want if I have a mission for you I'm going to give you that gift so so I kind of I would do as I was working on sales in the evenings I'd come home and pretty much stay up late just writing books and so that's see what is what does that tell you right I've had that conversation with students before who who say I'm an engineering major or you know I'm a marketing major but but I just want to write right I just want to study and I just went and I said well you know maybe maybe that's maybe that's what you should do and the hesitation Patrick is always well there's no money in that right how can I raise a family doing that or what will my parents say right or my parents want me to be a doctor or a lawyer but if that's what you're if that's what you're called to do now it's interesting that you said writing is writing hard for you do you not enjoy it are you kind of do yeah you're a grown-up I didn't really like it as much but now I now I love to do it now I feel I find it very humbling in my role to when I get um you know manuscripts and I do mostly you know I'm doing uh not so much the copy editing but the developmental editing and uh and you know a lot of times I'm looking at a manuscript from someone that has like yourself that has a phd or a master's and you know I give suggestions and then we take it to the copy editor who looks more at the grammar but but it's it's almost like you know like I think in a role of being a priest or you're kind of like you feel like unworthy of the role but you know somehow god has chosen you you know to do this role and so you have to just you know you constantly trying to get better each day and just pray for that grace to do a good job well hey I can tell you having the phd after your name doesn't mean that you're a good writer I mean everybody everybody needs editors and and also too phd often means that you've just gone to a college for graduate work and specialized in something really really really really near all right sure but but everybody every good writer is you know while most good writers are often good writers because they have good editors and and and and and the worst writers really I found this the worst academics who try to write are the ones who don't think they need editors and you know that's that's mistake number one so um you know pride arrogance I mean humility is an important part of being a good writer so so you mentioned st ambrose in there in Iowa that's really in Iowa yeah okay so I went from undergrad yeah so I kind of I commuted you know lived at home and commuted and I did business there so and I helped out when I was there you know I played some tennis and I was on the we did a pro-life club so we're kind of the minority you know a lot of these Catholic universities unfortunately you know that there's you know nominal and in name you know you you have to fight for your faith there you know I think phone she had a quote he said it's better to send your kids to a public school but they can defend their faith than do a Catholic school will they lose their faith you know and and uh there's you know something to be said about you know there is some really great Catholic schools but there's other ones where you definitely feel the the persecution and I felt it when I was in my undergrad I had my student assistant a few years ago left a major Catholic College in Pittsburgh you can probably guess what it is because she was tired of being attacked for her faith there and she said I'd rather go to a college like Grove City which is Christian but not Catholic where um where where she actually felt that her faith was more respected here than that Catholic College but but St. Ambrose I I don't even know where it is we're in where in Iowa is it yeah yeah so it's in Davenport Iowa so it's the Quad Cities you know yeah okay and it and I take it um it's not on the Cardinal Newman list uh recommended no it's not it's not no all right I guess maybe I'll keep praying I think they have a really good chat but I don't I don't really since I moved away from that I don't follow it too much but I'm hoping I mean there's some there's a couple I had a couple friends that one became a nun when I was there so I mean there's there's some really good pockets of Catholicism you know from I think it's really from the parents raising their children to go there and they're strong in their faith so right right so okay so you're you're a marketing person you're moonlighting as a writer and you realize you stand up late at night writing and um so the and you said you did a book on on miscarriage is that correct that is that's that's correct yeah but so it's a book called Nursery of Heaven and I co-authored it with another author Cassie Everett since she's had uh she has a right yeah miraculous story and she's been on EWTN with the book she had five miscarried five miscarriages and and then now she has five children you know three biological and then two adopted and so we wanted to tell the story of the saints in there too and I think you know like St. Gianna and then Saint Therese's parents you know just dealing with child loss and then also just we have all these stories of you know just people that have lost children you know at stillbirth and then there's some beautiful prayers in there and then I think it's really a great resource for priests to have to to know what to say to couples um so it's really I think you know people don't realize but I mean in your pre-cana classes they don't talk a lot about child loss and it's probably I would say it's the that and finances I mean those are the number two you know um factors that they lead you know there's the the sorry the statistics are pretty high on divorce for people that have miscarriages I think it's like you're 20 higher more likely to have a divorce if you've had a miscarriage so I mean it's really it's a real struggle and I think our our goal right in this book was to help couples to find healing so yeah so Cassie had five is that right I didn't know that that's correct yeah yeah my wife had at least four I I thought it was five but she corrected that it's four and you know she would know right she would know better but but um I mean the first one's the hardest the first one was it's 17 yeah and and you know they they were they weren't as far along after that but it's really hard and we had we have eight kids two two are adopted and we you know we we would obviously have had more right but that's yeah yeah so yeah nursery of heaven it's called nursery yeah yeah that's nursery of heaven I'm sorry hear about that Paul and and we have a facebook page Cassie post stuff it's just nursery of heaven facebook and the other day you know there was this beautiful homily we shared this happened last month and this was in Wisconsin there was a lady that had a stillbirth and the blessed mother actually appeared to this this young girl and was holding her child in her arms and says said like something like I will take you can find the story the homily on her on that facebook it says I will take care of this child just like I took care of your son and like do not do not do not be afraid and uh and this lady you know she saw this happen in in daylight and uh that I believe you know that that's the image of our book has the image of our lady with the children and uh so we had our friend Michael Corsini paint that image but that's I believe you know that that's what happens in heaven you know I haven't seen my children in heaven I'm at my wife's had dreams of them but I do believe that they're you know they're in the nursery of heaven with with our lady yeah I don't think of it enough but I do think of it from time to time I mean imagine so that that that you know hopefully if I get to heaven someday and I'm maybe there before my wife and other kids and and there will be four or five there and one of them will look just like my daughter Amanda right one of them and it's mostly these are the kids right these these are the kids that that didn't make it out of the womb so it's yeah it's a really powerful thing yeah and yeah what percentage of women have miscarriages I think it yeah it's a lot it's like I think it's 20 to 30 percent or maybe even more than that and you and you see a lot of these Hollywood stars that are like really opening up they're sharing their third loss of stillbirth and miscarriage and it kind of I almost think the more we grieve and and harm miscarriages then these people do it kind of eventually it can turn the tides of abortion because they're seeing the connection now you know but it takes a while but I'm hope I'm praying that you know that that does happen that's a great point I mean if there could be such an outpouring of sympathy as there would indeed by the culture at large the women who've lost children through miscarriage right so you're never going to have Planned Parenthood or Chelsea Handler or some kind of angry feminists come and say well that's not really a child right you know they're not going to do that for a miscarriage right it would be vulgar and be too insensitive but but getting them to acknowledge the humanity of that child of the room and that loss then you just easily say okay well what about the aborted ones right you know they don't want to go there they don't want to go there but but you follow the logic and that's that's a great point I mean it's very much this is very much a pro-life thing so so that book was published then by which publisher so that was the company I started Contemplative Heart Press so I published that that would have been in 2019 so in October 2019 so Contemplative Heart Press is that still operating you know it is I don't I don't really know that I work at TAN I don't operate as much but I do have you know that book Nursery of Heaven and then another children's book through them okay okay so all right you you so you did that and then you came to TAN when I don't I actually don't know the answer to these yeah yes so I started in TAN in January this past January and you know sadly as you know the former editor John Morehouse died unexpectedly and so there was a role that was opening that opened up so yeah I've been here since January okay and had you so you you obviously this book was in the works right I mean you were I mean this this must be here's the right so so you so you kind of came to TAN probably through that book right or maybe you knew yeah yeah yeah yeah you know actually that that book so it was funny a couple years ago you know I presented the idea when I hadn't finished writing you know I was in the middle that I was interested I wanted TAN to publish it and then I think a lot of times with production schedules they're booked so they'll tell authors hey we're booked so you know that was all I heard we're not interested and so then I just decided self-publishing November this past November and I didn't really promote it that well you know sent to a couple you know Jason Everett I was able to speak on his show but and then you know when I came from my interview I said you know here's my book and I just want to share with you and I think that does happen a lot of TAN we also get a lot of we publish a lot of self-published books so we're going to publish this this great book called Terror of Demons by Kennedy Hall he self-published it so I mean ideally it's nice if you can just have a publishing company just take over the book you know like you know in the manuscript stages you know because there's more costs you have a higher cost when you when you self-publish right so so that that um that was one um so that was a factor but I do think that there is a room you know I want to encourage like writers that you know they get rejected by you know big companies to you know to persevere and to you know even to self-publish it and and then you know that's still on your heart you know sometimes send it to a you know you know like a someone like TAN or Ignatius Press as well so right right and you know I used to say probably 20 30 years ago before self-publishing was possible right that about 99 percent of book manuscripts never get published right but now because it is new technology and self-publishing you can do that right you can get your book published but but that doesn't mean that it's going to get in the bookstore that it's going to get read that it's going to get noticed so you know if you've got something good enough for for a publisher like TAN books or another publisher go for it try it right try it yes yeah and definitely so so all right so so this is um this is an impressive book and I didn't even I didn't know that you had done it until we were talking on the phone about three weeks ago I that you were working on this and this is um this is dense I mean there's a this is almost 400 pages in fact it's three and it is right it's not it's not big wide margins big spaces not double spaced on the pages I mean this is I told you in the email I consider scholarly I mean this is it's it's not um I so I thought first parents of the saints all right this is going to be a book going to be this how I would have written right there's going to be probably like 12 chapters maybe 20 chapters each with a different set of parents right and then each is kind of like a biographical biographical profile but but that's not how you organize it you organize this in a really interesting kind of thematic I would almost say academic way but I don't want to scare people away from buying the block right but it's it's it's a it's a very thoughtful thematic organization so explain how how you organize how you organize yeah yeah so the book is organized into seven hallmarks and that is what it's I was literally walking on a golf course with my wife and we had just been married uh you know a few months and like the Holy Spirit just put this book on my heart out of nowhere it's like just like this idea came and I'm like what would the topics be as I started praying about it and it was these seven hallmarks and and the seven hallmarks all begin with an s and I wasn't like I was I do like alliteration but just happen to be you know so we started with an s I didn't notice that yeah yeah so we started with the the sacramental life and then we have sacrificial love surrender suffering simplicity solitude and the sacredness of life and so yeah yeah and uh I think lucky number seven of all things are like seven sacraments right that's right that's right and and I want to outline two in the beginning of the book I mean there's other you know like hallmarks I mean you could even talk about humility yep and courage I mean there's so so many other things but these ones were just the themes as I was reading this book yeah you know and I wanted you know I love mother Angelica and she said you know she's like I wish you many years in purgatory for those who you know sugarcoat the lives of the saints so this was really important when I was writing this book I didn't want to just I had mostly the good in here but I also wanted to put in a few things that parents they made mistakes on and I wanted to show that you know sometimes we ideally put the saints on a pedestal that we can never emulate them and I think this way you see like hey they were human they had kids that fell away from the faith like Piedre Pios you know mom and dad you know they had one of their daughters left the faith and sometimes you only think oh they only raised the saint but they had other ones and uh so I think that the way that I wanted to write the story is you know it was very painful but you know going around those topics it just took me took me like three years to write but I think and one of the things we did at the end I did at the end of the book was put an index so it is kind of tough as you're reading you kind of don't know which thing is who but you can kind of tell by the last name but the index in the back of the book also kind of spells out who they are but I think it leads the element of mystery as you're reading it so there's little you know some of them you know I do talk about st. Teresa's parents the most and that's because I had the most the most information on them was that right okay I was going to ask if they were the favorite right they actually they are they are my favorite I think the reason is you know because I kind of had that experience you know when I left religious life that I think a lot of people can vouch for this you know when they discern out of this priesthood or you know not the priest but the seminary I mean they but when they leave the seminary or a convent you know and I was just in the I wasn't even in final vows so but you kind of have this sense of like what next Lord and there can be a sense of like you know you don't want to disappoint God and I think st. Teresa's mom like on her wedding night she was in tears she's literally like she just wanted to be a nun so bad and her older sister was a nun and and I think eventually when she got married and she had kids she's like I do not regret having children and so I think that was the connection that I had just because you know I had this ideal of religious life growing up from my from high school and college and I you know and I think by writing this book I wanted to show the world that marriage is not a second-class vocation you know it's yeah we need we need holy parents you know this is such a powerful example so so st. Teresa's mother was named Zell Zell I think it's a Zellie is the pronoun but Zellie yeah I wasn't sure how to pronounce it um and the last name is Martin pronounced like Martin right yeah I believe and and her father's name was Lewis okay Lewis and they were and Louis and they were yeah and they were canonized in uh 2015 I think October 18th 2015 so think of what a powerful example this is so um Zellie or however you say her name the mother so she she had initially thought that she should have stayed in a convent and not had children but she does have children one of them becomes st. Therese who's a doctor in the church of all things right and and you know one of one of the most renowned saints of the last 150 years she's a doctor of the church right correct correct yes and was she the first me there's Catherine of Sienna there's also the surprise surprise the six did I can't remember when she was made the doctor of the church there's Catherine of Sienna there's Teresa of Avila Therese Lissue and then I think and then Pope Francis Pope Benedict did st. Hildegard so there's four of them yeah exactly so so she so she um so Zellie goes she decides to get married has kids one daughter becomes no less than st. Therese she and her husband are both canonized right um so then that another daughter I think is is a venerable or yeah yeah one of her is and I mentioned then the book her most troublesome daughter Leone is who was actually like kicked out of school three times is her cause is open for canonization and she became a visitation none four of the sisters became carmelites and then the one daughter became Leone became a visitation then they also lost four children two sons they were named Joseph and they wanted those two sons to be priests that was kind of their they always dreamt of having a son they'd be a priest and this is interesting this is why st. Therese is literally the vocations director for I mean pretty much you can ask any vocations director in any diocese but she's our unofficial vocations director she brings in more vocations to priesthood by her prayers because she always wanted a little brother she wanted a she knew like her older brothers were going to be priests her parents had a dream of that so she always dreamt of having a brother as a priest so in a mysterious so in a mysterious way she intercedes for you know you hear stories about young men going to the seminary I said yes st. Therese was the one that interceded for me so there ultimately it was all girls in that family right so did the boys get the five yeah the five surviving girls and then they had two girls that died and then they had two boys that died so total of nine children they had well and and so think about this folks if so Therese's mom had stayed in the convent and there's you know nothing wrong with that right I think we we want nuns we want we want women to go to the convent but but she felt called to something different right so it depends where you're called for and discernment is hard to figure out um they that it can be very difficult but she went on and got married and look at this is why we're having this conversation today right that's because of the literal saints that that that she she formed right so so yeah that seems to be your your maybe your favorite case of parents by the way you you had mentioned parents who made mistakes yeah um maybe I hadn't seen that yet do you have any examples of those yeah yeah well even even Saint Therese's parents even they you know their daughter Leone the reason why she was such a problem child is because they had a maid servant at the time not because they were super well I think they were you know upper middle class but you mean both parents worked at the time they had Zellie had a lace making business and then Lewis had a watchmaking business eventually he quit his watchmaking business to help his wife because it was more profitable but they needed like you know a couple servants you know I think it was one servant to help the family and one of the servants was manipulating Leone so that was the the issue there and they they didn't know that that was going on so and so that was the reason why she was kind of manipulating her you know like kind of yeah and I don't know if it was physical abuse or it was definitely emotional abuse and then they found out like why because Leone would never listen to her parents but she'd only listen to the maid servant and they found out that there was uh that was the reason why so so they they kind of just they missed that opportunity you know and and and um and I think another example was Saint Therese of Avala's parents like they her mother loved like romance novels and and and so Saint Therese of Avala like would end up reading her mom's novels and I think just and that kind of changed her desires you know a little bit she became more worldly secular kind of dressed up with makeup and then she also had a cousin that was very um uh nefarious and that that cousin kind of influenced her so I think just the fact that even the most saintly parents they can you know that they make mistakes they they oversee things um it kind of gives nothing like you take comfort in that you kind of in a sense you do take comfort in that because you're like hey no one is a perfect parent yes so Therese's family they weren't just floating around a little clouds with halos around that right yeah correct like we envision the um another family so there's so many that I that I have written but but you already mentioned um Saint Gianna Barretta Mola I think in passing and um my family feels feels close to her my my daughter's name is Gianna Maria and she's named for Saint Gianna by the way I've noticed Patrick in the last few years my wife and I have Gianna has become a popular name and um just in the culture of large and and I mean not just among Catholics I'm not quite sure where this is coming from I I mean sometimes people just like the way a name sounds or is spelled there there's also I think her name is Giada right from from the Food Network she's Italian she cooks yeah okay yeah I saw her name for a while that name is being used for a while I haven't seen that one as much lately but Gianna is increasingly popular and I don't know maybe it started in part by a lot of Catholics using the name Gianna Barretta Mola but but but so she was I want to say she died around 1962 something like that and and so we think a lot about her and her making the choice to to deliver her child have that child and that that child um her name she's around today she speaks all the time what can I think of her name yeah yeah I think I think her name I think I want to say she was named after her mother Gianna Manuela yeah that is that isn't that is it indeed but the I had never thought of Gianna I always thought of Gianna Barretta Mola and her husband as parents of course it's her as the saint and the fascinating I think she was maybe the first one in history I should read your opening page it's really interesting but she was the first saint in history who's like father and children were at her canonization right yeah yeah so I that that was um let's see I think that I may have confused you on that that one in intro is a blessed there's a blessed Chiara so that blessed Chiara but Badano she's pretty recent she was born I want to say in the eight seventy nine or eighty 1980 it's pretty recently but her parents were at the canonization and she died of cancer you know as a teenager yeah okay here Gianna yeah okay sorry I can go ahead I want to get this way this is I thought this was really cool it's a great way to start the book June 24th 1950 marked the first time in the church's history that a mother would attend the canonization of her own daughter the 11-year-old Italian martyrs saint Maria Goretti and that's interesting and we can talk about her September 25th 2010 marked the first time in the church's history that both a father and mother would attend your beatification of their own daughter blessed Chiara Luce Badano unlike Maria Goretti who was stabbed to death Chiara suffered from a lengthy bout of terminal cancer that ended her life in only 18 she's a very modern saint right so she was canonized by Benedict 16 on October 28 or October 18, 2015 marked the first time in the church history that a husband and wife were canonized together saints Louis and Zellie Martin the holy couple is not as widely known as their as their daughter Saint Therese of Lizzou who's one of the church's greatest saints and one of only four female doctors of the church so yeah so those are some different examples but but back to you Gianna Berettamola so again I mean you know we think of her as a mother we think of her as a parent and so forth but I never thought of wonder what Gianna Berettamola's parents were like and you talk about them tell us a little bit tell us a little bit about them yes I believe her father was Alberto and can't think of the mother's name there's so many in the in the book but the one thing that was that was fascinating about them is they lived near a Capuchin friary and so the father would get up early and go to mass in the morning and then he go to work and then his you know the wife would get up and you know she would serve her husband kind of make him a meal and then you know after again after mass and then she would go to the second mass later with the kids and they you know the walking distance the Capuchin friary and and then in the evening time what was most I think one of the things that kind of influenced me the most in this book was the way that Alberto would take time to have a family meal with his children and he would ask them about their day and then if there was any any issues serve this like you know he would kind of correct that fault and and then I believe he liked to smoke his cigar at the end of the day but he just he really got to know his children you know and I think in our culture today there's very few like family meals you know people are running to the soccer practices and I think the more we know our children you know the better you know we get to know them you know how their how their day went and so that really influenced me a lot and you know the Gianna Mola all of all of her siblings became like very successful I think she had one one sister that became a nun she also had I think I want to say there's a priest and doctor so it's a very and I think that was attributed to the fact that the father took the time to know the children you know he influenced them didn't really steer them in a direction and it was interesting too that I don't think I mentioned this book but Gianna was praying in novena she was I think she was about to become like a she wanted to become a nun and go to I want to say it was brazil somewhere and then on the last day the novena is like she became clear like you're supposed to be called to marriage so wow the so this is on page 26 and I commend you for remembering these details a lot of these italian families were talking before this started and you asked me what my what my ethnic background was my mom's a hundred percent italian and so it's interesting how many of these italian families of this era had 810 11 kids and everyone got up at like 5 a.m the mother and the father and went to mass and it's just the hardship and of course they had to walk there right but they but they did it and this is this is saint gianna okay and she is I think describing in herself what's the stores I believe what's my book by Ignatius press okay oh yeah this is Gianna speaking mama was really the valiant woman of the scriptures her day began early at 5 a.m when papa awoke to go to early mass and begin his day's work before the Lord and in the Lord's name he went alone 5 a.m right because mama stayed home to prepare breakfast and in a small lunchbox his midday meal when papa left work from Milan sets Milan Italy more than you mama passed through our bedrooms to awaken us caressing our faces I just imagine this we knew that shortly I think there's 11 kids or something like that right we knew that shortly she would go to church to assist at holy mass and we dress quickly to go with it happy to kneel beside her to prepare ourselves to receive Jesus in holy communion and to make our thanksgiving with what marvelous words she would suggest we tell Jesus then we would return home have breakfast and be off to school families that live this way today are made fun of right I or called like um crazy devout or something but this was this was not atypical of of families in Italy and France Germany and a lot of these countries at that time it's really sad to see what what once was and you know what the culture and so much of the west Hilar Bellach said the faith is Europe and Europe is the faith and you know Europe isn't very faithful today but a one point in time and again especially with these so many of these Italian families this was this was pretty typical how people work definitely I mean I think that that's the devotion to the holy Eucharist is what was you know passed on to these children you know when they when they saw their parents praying at mass it's like they believed in the real presence not just by you know by faith and by tradition but also by their parents body language and you can tell if something's real or not you know if you're going through the motions and as you know you see it the way you know just the way our culture is you know the respect you have towards you know even a symbol like the flag you know like if your child sees that like the respect they're like wow like I have respect for our country our soldiers in the same way you know for these sacraments and a lot of these parents they're not intellectuals they're they're farmers right they're what we today would call like blue collar working class folks and I mean it's sad read Charles Murray's book coming apart about the kind of detonation of the white working class in America today where they're not even they're not even married the the children that they have are a massive percentage are out of wedlock and at one point in time you had people far and they were having eight ten eleven kids and they would get up of like this at five o'clock in the morning the mom would go around to caress their faces father had already gotten up and you know walked up the hillside to go to mass it's um while this is inspiring a lot of the a lot of times it's kind of depressing to me to see what used to be and what's gone now and you know what um the whole point is the whole point of ten books right is that maybe we can do more of this in the future right we can yeah we can do like this in the future yeah no I definitely I think even like Padre Pio's parents were you know peasants they were uneducated you look at Maria Gretti's saying Bernadette's you know and I think it's also consoling to know for parents because I think a lot of times you think well if I don't have like a master's in theology from you know somewhere you know the Angelicum or Franciscan or you know any other you know Christendom that you know that I can't be the best teacher of my child and that's you know you are the best you know the best teacher and you don't yes it's helpful to have a degree and as parents we need to continue our education but you know by reading books and praying you know through meditation prayer but it also it's just a lesson for us that really that God works through the humble and simple people you know people with strong faith and really getting I mean I know it's kind of cliche but it is like getting our children to heaven is more important than Harvard you know for our mission in life to get our children in to the best college we failed you know because you know if you can imagine where our kids will be a trillion years from now I mean that's the destinations that heaven or hell and you know like a trillion years from now like is it really getting into that college does that matter we're just giving our children the faith you know passing on our love for the rosary for our lady you know these are the things that these parents you know they were the salt of the earth people but that's why I think they wanted to be hidden you know as as you know and I think in our culture it is it's tough you know because you know like we're always told to to go out there and love our careers more than our families to be you know to be um money hungry and I feel like these parents were the opposite they just you know they're very simple dedicated souls so I got to read this quote this is one of my favorites this is from father Thomas Dubey and this is on pages eight to nine of the book there are two and I think it goes exactly what you're just talking about there are two kinds of human excellence the first of which is on the level of natural talents gifts accomplishments these occur in many areas into differing degrees intelligent scholarship literature music art sports and really that's that's where that's where parents are focusing on excellence day right by and large and kind of the western secular church the second and higher type lies on the level of personal goodness integrity virtue sanctity it goes back to tan books mission right we want to cultivate these things right those those virtues here we find the beauties of selfless love humility honesty patience chastity fidelity generosity and he said and he adds is immediately obvious that someone can be eminent in the first area of talents and accomplishments and yet a moral wrench in the second there are however few excel in both levels Augustin Thomas Aquinas Catherine of sienna Teresa of Avalon it should be obvious to a consistent theist that could be a saint is immeasurably more important than to be a world-class scholar violinist or an olympic gold medalist it's a very good spot on yeah absolutely you you had um I'm watching the clock because we keep these under two hours we're under an hour and well as a time flying we got like 10 minutes so there's so many people I wanted to hit here but I had mentioned before um you had mentioned um parents who made mistakes and I said I don't remember seeing mistakes but now I do and you just mentioned Maria Gretti was Maria Gretti the one whose father insisted that the family moved to where they moved to and then that was where Maria got raped yeah yeah yeah she she was actually she prevented the rape you know she said you're gonna go to hell so the gentleman tried to Alessandro tried to rape her and thankfully he was unsuccessful but um and so they had some issues they had moved away from their family because of I think they were already destitute and they're looking for a better you know better life to provide for his family and so they moved to another area of Italy that was a warmer climate and then the father ended up getting I think it was malaria he died of some kind of sickness and then and and before he died he goes he told his wife he goes like return you know return to their hometown pretty much and uh the wife didn't have the means she had like five children like under the age of it was like 10 or maybe 13 sorry with Maria Gretti and uh and she kept the children there and then they became sharecroppers with this other family and that's and they shared the same common area with this family with Alessandro who ended up you know trying to killed Maria Gretti and so I think um you know I think the mother felt guilty too like you know she wish she would have heated the husband's you know warning but you're gonna head back right but but there was a deathbed wish right like you know yeah please yeah go back home go home yeah and the father had they didn't really want to leave people in the community didn't want them to leave but he felt he had to leave for financial reasons yeah and he got there and man is it a mistake right um I mean he he gets malaria guy died from it I mean and and and think and people watching this think about what these families went through I mean there are so many people today who when um when a trial happens in life or your family loses somebody they lose their faith these these people didn't lose their faith I mean you know these kinds of trials prevails this is just part of why they knew that I mean they lost multiple children multiple children yeah so Maria Gretti's mom loses her husband and and whose deathbed wishes you know take the kids home but she can't because she can't afford to right she can't afford to buy a ticket or go or there's I mean you can't get there and then of all things her what happens to her daughter happened to her daughter and and I think Patrick that all the kids right ended up being raised by somebody else and the poor mom died yeah I think they yeah yeah they put the kids up for adoption I believe some of them were putting some orders and I think some of them emigrated to the United States and then it was you know then the gentleman that you know that killed Maria Gretti like he ended up going after he got you know uh I think he got uh was released from parole and he ended up visiting Maria Gretti's mother you know on it was like Christmas Eve and and she goes well if Maria can forgive you then I can forgive you and that was the toughest probably moment her life to say like do I am I going to forgive this guy and they went to pass together right they did yeah I think it did yeah Tom Paul II with uh Mahomet Aliasha is would be assassin right meaning in prison and and you know the picture of this image of Maria Gretti's mom who's lost everything she lost her husband lost her kids lost Maria and there she is and she's a she's a side Maria's killer or murderer the man who caused her death right and and and she goes to Christmas mass with right I mean I mean you'd be tempted if it was my daughter to be tempted to strangle the guy right I mean how's that right and they were both at the yeah yeah they were both at the canon folks and they were both at the canonization together I believe Maria Gretti's mother and then Alessandro but you know and I think you have a good point when you look at like John Paul II a lot of these saints in the chapter I wanted to write the most on was suffering because really I mean you look at these countries like Poland where these saints are you know they're raised and it's they're raised in difficult times you know I think when we get in prosperous times our faith becomes comfortable and you know I wonder if John Paul II if he was born say in the United States today would he become a saint and I honestly don't think so I think that his adversity made him a saint and I think a lot of these saints the same same thing happened so I think it's a lesson for us even me as a parent you're sometimes we're like when we go through suffering I mean it's really a sign that God loves us even though at the time we don't we don't see it that way but it really it kind of detaches us the more suffering we have and obviously not like one thing about St. Teresa's mom she goes I didn't never prayed for suffering you know and I think it's you know I don't know I haven't I think all of us have enough suffering that you know but we just you know right yeah and yet there are some of these saints Catherine of Siena, Faustina, Gemma Galgani who did pray for suffering right and and in fact there's another one from that same era by the Maria Goretti, Gemma Galgani, Padre Pio, you show they're all born around the same time 1870, 1880, 1883, Rez is around that time too. Gemma Galgani who ended up she died in 1903 I think and maybe around 25 years old and she had the stigmata but she I think she lost everybody and she lose her parents right and raised by somebody else like a wealthy woman in the area I believe I believe that's correct yeah yeah yeah and one more because we're running out of time wow there's some Padre we should do a bunch of these right in fact that was great you could you could do I mean every mother's day every father's day you should write something put this out there you can do an interview we do a press release you know just yeah mind people somebody you can you can mind this for the next 50 years yeah yeah thank you yeah quickly on Padre Pio can you can you tell us about him because his um his father came to America yeah he came to America twice I think one was it one time was in Pennsylvania I believe the other time was in New York and he did this so his son could he worked on I believe it was one of the railroads for his son to be able to to go to seminary that that was the whole purpose yeah that was it to come to America to make money to send his son to seminary yeah by the way the western PA was a new council which is about a half hour for me I'd love to know which house he stayed at but anyway go ahead yeah and he even missed his son's ordination mask which is you know that what a sacrifice I mean I would be you know I would like my brother-in-law this year was ordained a deacon in Rome and we had wanted to go so bad and you know because of COVID everything was shut down I remember watching it on there and thankfully we'll be able to go see his ordination in in Wisconsin but it was so painful and I can't imagine just like you know Padre Pio's dad to be at you know not to be there for his son and I also mentioned that in St. Jose Maria Screva like his own dad died before his ordination mask and his first mass and just like you know it's like it's a bittersweet moment you know for a son you know as a child you're looking up for the gaze of your father and he's not there at the most important moment of your life and I think Padre Pio understood his you know his father's sacrifice but but just it just kind of shows you the love that these saints had for their parents like they like Padre Pio was he was so devastated when his mother died that he couldn't even celebrate her funeral mass like he was locked up in his room he loved his mom that much you know I think sometimes we think oh you know when you lose someone you know it's like the saints just kind of moved on with their life but they had such a such a profound love for their parents and I think when God willing when we get to heaven you know hopefully we all know you and I we make it there we go up to Padre Pio and I bet Padre Pio almost like you know John the Baptist is like you know behold the land of God Padre Pio is going to be like I want you to meet my parents you know because yeah my probably most common intercessors that I go to like Padre Pio Michael the archangel yeah and Padre Pio's mom you tell about the moving moment where toward the end of her life she gets down her knees right she's like kissing his hands or each finger right like 10 times or something like that yeah and and and he and he says no right he tries to tries to help her up and and he said the son must kiss the mother's fingers I think that's what he said you must not kiss my fingers but I must kiss yours you know right but she wanted to kiss the man's not just her son but but of the stigmata right yeah and and the and and the father so the mother died before the father and the father um whose name was Grazio right so so the father ends up living with Padre Pio's um American friend that he had Padre Pio had these women they call they called him the uh Pia Donna the Pia Donna the holy women right the other friars kind of made fun of that because they were almost like uh uh he was like they were like fangirls to Padre Pio I don't want to make fun of it but but Padre Pio and the other guys would laugh about it too some of them could be really effusive can could be a little crazy but one of the American women who followed and who wasn't crazy um was Maria Pio and and so the father Grazio actually lived with her I think the last few years of his life and he's got to spend a lot of time with his son in the in those last few years but here again imagine today folks right where so often today the person becomes older and you send him off to a nursing home or wherever here was a friend of Padre Pio Maria Pio said I'll take your dad I'll take it yeah yeah until it was dying days the same way what St. Teresa's parents you know they took care of their um her mother took care of the father in law and then her own dad you know before they died they lived with them for the last few years of their life so that was kind of a lesson that was really inspiring for me to read about that all right well I yeah I think we need to wrap this up but is there is there anything I mean I have a whole bunch of questions wouldn't I go ahead well okay what would be for people watching what you know what what's the takeaway what what lesson learned here what's what's the big picture sure yeah sure and if my phone cuts off here I'm sorry I had my my phone was charged up so it might it's kind of on the it's kind of it might be uh the battery might be dying I'm running out of time but I'll just say the one takeaway is that um you know as parents you'll never underestimate you know the the role that you have in your children's life that you are you know the primary educator you are um you know you are that that hidden hero in their life and all the sacrifices you do now it may you know they may not appreciate that but someday they will and and the greatest thing that you can you can give to them is is loving God you know and also loving them as well and just providing that example you know when they see your prayer life when you go to mass and you're praying the rosary you know just that you mean it and not just going through the motions and and I think and just how God will he he wants to make a saint he wants to make you wants to make your children saints and that's that's your gift to the world and if more than you know having a library named after you even giving your children you know a huge inheritance your goal in life as parent my goal and your goal should be to form saints because our church in our world needs saints and that's that's our legacy in life now it doesn't matter whether we're canonized or not I mean I mean it's more important that our children you know not that even they they become saints that that's the most important thing like we're like a John the Baptist I'm going to point you to Christ and so that's my takeaway is just to allow God to work through you to form saints a spiritual inheritance more than anything else and the Patrick you've done something really important here because because people think Catholics even think of the saints and they think of them almost in isolation right the saint with God the saint with Jesus the saint and the crucifix the saint and intercessors the saint in the church but the saints were children of parents and and and as you show here I mean a major major major part of this for many of these saints they were born they were formed by the now there were some like Faustina right who literally had to run away from home right but but but but but but mostly they were formed by parents so great job great great job no thank you yeah no thank you and now all the saints are how they're all connected to you know each of them you know even you know I think I try to make that connection throughout the book there's so many connections and you know you see even when Saint Therese's parents were married they were married I think it was like four months after our lady appeared in lords so so they went to lords for you know for pilgrimage often for healing and so that's that's kind of think just we're not like this you know the saints are kind of like it's like a living rosary I see we're all connected in some way and God wants us again to to form saints and that's that's our mission in life as parents so amen all right so Patrick O'Hearn the editor here at Tanblocks parents of the saints and Steve Cunningham is our great producer he's behind he's actually on our screen here too Patrick and I can see him but people watching this right now can't and so Steve is I'm sure he's been posting pictures and graphics and images of all the stuff they'll put up information on how to get this but you get it at our website the Tanbooks website just go online and go to Tanbooks so and Patrick and I wanted to talk about upcoming titles and other projects and but we're out of time let's do that let's do that another time maybe later in the summer that'd be great yeah thank you so much Paul for your book and your amazing book The Devil and Karl Marx it's such a gift you know so thank you for writing that that's not as that's not an inspiring book and I'll tell you that there was a parental failure there in the Marx family yeah yeah that just shows you what one parent you know I just how parents can make the difference they can they can change a civilization by uh even just by raising one holy person so by the way that's so true a fascinating contrast would be how Marx was raised compared to Therese and Padre Pio and some of these other maybe maybe we need to have parents on the bad saints yeah yeah yeah how about bad saints how about malforming the saints no that's right right or uh turning of um of the you know non saints yeah yeah very cool all right thank you thank you so much for having me and thank you Steve for your behind the scenes work as well you cunning am the great Steve okay all right God bless you guys all right thanks Patrick take care everybody okay you in another episode in a few weeks check out our previous episodes online YouTube and wherever you want to find them take care God bless