 Good morning and thanks for joining us again on the breakfast and plus TV Africa We're now having conversations about Diaspora voting and the electronic transmission of results regarding the 2023 presidential elections and joining us is Mr. Nick Agoulet Member Nido as well as Chibuzo Obochi is the chairman of the Nigerians in diaspora Organization Nido, UK South. Good morning to you both. Thank you for joining us Thank you very much for having us. Okay, I want to begin with you Yes, Mr. Obochi, I want to begin with you regarding this story that we're looking at Looking ahead on you know to the 2023 elections There's been lots of you know debates regarding the electoral act amendment bill And it seems that the senators the house of reps members will be meeting today to discuss these further And that they may grant INEC, you know permission to Transmit results electronically. Would you say this is a win for democracy or this is something we should have achieved a long time ago Mr. Obochi Thank you very much. Thank you viewers I should think it's something we should have achieved a long time ago, but it's never too late to do the right thing So the point that is starting now is Is who said kudos to them and we hope that they will succeed in doing so We've been on this road for quite a long time more than 10 years ago We've been lobbying for this asking To make sure that we have the right to vote and that the turning voting should be the way to go is a future So for them to now work up to start to do it. I think it's something that we should applaud them for Our investigation have shown that even the presidency the INEC everybody in Nigeria supports diaspora voting And for them to now do it is something that we should be happy and look forward to a successful outcome Okay, Mr. Aguley, can you hear me? Mr. Nika Aguley Okay, um, why would try to reconnect with Mr. Aguley? I still want to follow up with you on that question Um, you say it's a great thing that you know, we're now considering this But you know that INEC will only get this mandate to electronically transmit results If these recommendations before the federal lawmakers are passed as presented And if ascented to by the president now, do you think that this is something we should be expected? You know that the president would ascend to this and that we can officially transmit results electronically Yeah, the the point about what we do is that a few years ago. I think it was in 2000 and the last election This was already passed and it was sent to the president to be ascended by the president The only reason the president gave if I would remember clearly it was that It was too close to the elections and that he you can't change the the game They you can't change the rules That it turned on the games because it was less than six months to the elections So now we have a long time to the elections. So there should be nothing stopping the president from ascending I may be surprised we're still discussing this It's something we should not discuss. It's not going to be passed. It's not going to be sent to the president Say it has come back. What I expected the senate to do or the house the nara assembly to do Was to be packaged by the senate president previously and possibly do some fighting touches and send it back to the president He was there and he accepted it just The sole reason that he gave was I was too close to the elections. So we should get it done now All right, nika gulay. Good morning. Once again Yes, good morning. All right. Um, there is of course this conversation has been on for a bit. Uh, they have been Uh, you know the times when of course it was a rumor that the senate had rejected the national assembly had rejected the electronic transfer of results Um, but I want you to you know, quickly address some of the reasons that um, you were given Uh for you know, not You know allowing for electronic transfer of results and also do you think that there is Still some loopholes that can be spotted even with the electronic transfer of results Do you think that it's still possible that false figures Can still be put forward in the elections? I want the the thank you very much for that question The thing is that We're in 2021. We are no longer in 2000 or 1980 technology has now Improved to the point that a bank Can allow you to take your phone connect securely to your bank account and move money from your bank account to another account or to even pay for Any transaction that you have done that is a level to which technology has done to So if we can move our money securely electronically from person to person Then there is no fear that we can transmit our votes electronically as well from pulling units to a central collection And and everything is fine So long as the people who are placed in charge, which in this case is INEC Is able to take the necessary precautions To ensure that that transmission process is safe The same way the banks are taking precautions to ensure that If I transfer money from my account to another account, it is safe The money leaves my account and learns in the other accounts safely without anybody interfering in the process to steer money from my account So we have got to the point where technology has has improved when we can securely transmit our votes now I understand the Genuine concerns that have been raised regarding areas that don't have data services Well, if we look at that we will say that Thanks to the reforms in the telecom sector and with the Introduction of a private sector players like eggplant and co Nigeria has not got at least 90 percent coverage Of telephone and data services So if the national assembly makes a law for electronic transmission of votes You know that you have covered 90 percent of the geographic territory of Nigeria And if you are thinking about the number of voters, you have covered all the cities the towns and the most of the villages You know, majority of the votes are coming from the cities anyway You know, so by the time you cover all the cities the towns and villages that are on telephone and data What will be left will be 10 percent or less of the voters And for that the national assembly can make a step out provision on how they can transmit their votes You know before the rest of the country that is on data That is on on telephone services should transmit their votes on electronically So that is the point which Nigeria has gotten and this registration will be well implemented if it is passed into law Yeah, but what i'm asking is do you still think that there is a possibility in any way that you know Loopholes can be found anywhere around this You know this process um with which fake results false figures can also still be put forward When we come to technology It depends on who is operating that technology the phone that we have in our hands If you are not careful with the use of that phone Someone can infiltrate that phone and steal your data. So that is possible So that loophole is there But what i'm saying is that this loophole can be managed If the operator in this case Is i'm not know what they are doing You know If It engages the right expertise and they are in the diaspora who are taking my next service From infiltration and from interference Are you with me? Yes Exactly so We call risk management risk management is that if you identify a risk You're not beautiful All right, I think we might be having challenges with uh nika gulay's Conversation there, but we still I believe have mr. Chibuzo gochi. Can you still hear us? All right, but I think we would have to reconnect with both of our guests this morning and continue this conversation We're very likely good. I hear you clearly. Oh mr. Wachee. Thank you um, mr. Wachee was still talking about um the issue usagi earlier raised and That's regarding what the you know the fears that engines might be having that you know even with the online system The online transmission of votes that you can still be manipulated mr. Nika gulay there was talking about a risk management factor Can you take it from there, please? Yeah, what I would say is that I we can't say there's something that is 700 percent risk-free They should be risked but the issue is that the risk can be managed from what my friend nika gulay was saying Risk can always be managed who can see for example, what happened in the in the u.s. election recently they were issues with Or purported issues about the electronic 14 of what the vote counts and the system that was used but at the end of it they they've At the end of it you saw that the writing was done because the percentage of error Will never influence the elections. So the electronic voting is definite that we are we are going to get some risk factors here and there But in the totality of it the writing will be done and it's the best Way forward for now Okay, mr. Wachee. I want us to you know give Nigeria and a good sense of just exactly why You know this electronic transmission of results might be very important And you know how it's going to influence the Nigerian elections in 2020 and beyond Let's look at the process that we currently operate now with the manual coalition of results What are the challenges with that method? I won't I won't say I'm an s party in this area I talked to nick will handle it. I was looking forward to a dashboard in bed the way we We went the edges ago We know we you go by by foot later on we go we go with bicycle when we can with car electronic cars And we are moving forward to even flying cars. That's how technology works The world cannot be static. We cannot remember where we are today without moving forward with technology There are a lot of things happening in the world. We have the blockchain Things coming up there are ways that we can transmit it instantly So within the next within 24 hours for voting, we are sure to have the results So the third party that comes in between to fight and seize a ballot box boxes That will not happen again because my understanding is that sometimes when they are transmitting The ballot boxes from the police station to the collection to them There are people in between that sees sees the boxes fight for it I think I've seen some that went viral where somebody was being shot at Was was carrying the ballot box. So these are things that can be prevented with electronic voting And I believe all the all the all the all the monitors will be there the Parties will be there. Everybody will be seeing what is going on once it's been announced at the polling I polling unit it will be immediately transmitted So there will be no question of tech party hijack on the way So I think it's the best way to go and we should we should be looking for that's where the world is going And we should be left behind All right, I hope that we'll have time to also dig deeper into Talking about the issues on ground at the polling units because if you don't have You know a free and fair process at the polling units, whatever figures that has been transmitted to the annex server will have obviously be Faulted. Yes, hopefully we'll get there. But let's now talk about diaspora voting There is a large diaspora community in different parts of the world What do you think we can achieve with this and how do you think this might change? the direction of Nigerian politics Yeah, thank you for that question. That's the question of the the moment for us in diaspora We've achieved a lot of things through Our advocacy in diaspora. We've achieved the need come and Nigerian diaspora commission being led by bkw That's a one-stop shop for diasporans to deal with Nigeria to engage with Nigeria So that was something good for us. So what we're looking for to now all diaspora is for diaspora voting Nothing makes me a Nigerian The fact I'm having a Nigerian passport That's all there. I don't have any benefit of being a Nigerian The only sole benefit Of me being a Nigerian is to vote And be voted for if that possibility is there So if I'm a diasporan, we remit a lot of money to Nigeria There's a lot of uh, I don't want to go to remittances because that's what that diaspora is known for But as a Nigerian doing all of these things If I cannot vote and be voted for the one that makes me a Nigerian that should be called a Nigerian So diaspora voting is the key thing that diasporans want from Nigeria And the nice thing about this is that we first open to all all stakeholders and everybody's happens to be in support of it From the presidency to the INEC to the national assembly to the governors. They're all in support of diaspora voting So what we're only looking forward to is the implementation and we understand as a lawyer I do understand that there's some amendments that need to be done in the constitution and the Electoral Act So we are looking forward to this amendment being done so that things can be Things can move forward So diasporans are eager to be full-fledged Nigerians. We have been discriminated against that's what we say as If we can't vote and be voted for So we look forward to that time when we can be able to exercise the the only right that makes us Nigerians There were people from other part of the world come to Nigeria the by land just like diasporans come and buy land The by land bureau makes every other person can come and buy land Live in Nigeria But the other thing that makes a Nigerian in Nigerian is that right to vote and be voted for How cannot be denied that single right that makes us Nigerians Okay, so miss out watching in the UK where you are I believe How is it done and in other in other countries other developed countries? How is this diaspora system done and what recommendations would you make for Nigeria and her electoral process? In For Nigeria, I think every country is unique in this one way What we've done in our book is to ask INEC to look for what a bespoke myth of what suits Nigeria because we don't want to replica. We are not americans. We are not The british who want to look at a Nigerian model that will suit Nigeria Who have the embassy the high commissions and their embassies of our place? You can go to go there after that vote and register and vote. I think one of the things that Stops us from voting is when they say you must vote at where you've registered to vote So because we cannot come down to Nigerian register and then come back to Nigeria again to vote That can be done at the embassies and the question of not having the data Of Nigerians in diaspora is also something I've been plugging up that we don't know how many Nigerians are in diaspora We estimate seven million Nigerians in diaspora, which is a substantial amount of their population that can change The votes at any one one point in time But we think all Nigerians for most Nigerians in diaspora do have their passports And a recent we are now having our BVN who had a BVN done a few years ago Now we're having our name done and linked linking it To our mobile phones and have a name. So these three source of data Can give us the exact population of Nigerians in diaspora. We don't have to We don't have to change the wheel. There's a lot of things the passport the bvn and the name those can identify us I have all three of it. I saw it cannot say you don't know I'm in Nigeria and I don't know The the population of Nigerians in diaspora The immigration office to remember to know how many people who Niger passport living in the UK And that data can be used to For diaspora votes in when the time comes and pass on to INEC we may only be asked to validate that or to go back and use the same data To to do to conduct our electoral registration So I think Niger should have a unique way of doing things and INEC is on top of it Our internal INEC shows that they are only waiting for the law to be passed and they will roll out a platform A procedure that will suit Nigerians in Nigerians own unique way Okay, yeah earlier. We had spoken about A census figures, you know, and I think it's it's a great point that you're making now with regards knowing exactly The number of persons on Nigerians living in diaspora Because if you don't have those numbers then it's going to be difficult For you to know what you're expecting with regards the elections Let's also talk about, you know, the registration process now Do you think that we will be able to pull off, you know, full registration of all Nigerians living in diaspora Online registration very likely between now and when it's time for the elections I think we will go far, you know, when something starts, there's always a Transition period that will have that teaching problem that will happen at the initial stage I don't foresee us, the 2023 election being a full being I don't foresee us being able to capture all before 2023 election But a substantial number will start and in the next elections you see an improvement What Nigerians in diaspora only want is that commission Once we give them that commission, they will flow with it When we started with the BVN, while it was free in Nigeria, we paid for it to get it in the diaspora We showed us how eager we are to to engage with Nigeria The need registration for example now is free in Nigeria But in the UK we pay 40 pounds almost $15. They were sick going ahead and doing it. We showed you how Important Nigeria is to us. So with this as well, what is the, what is its task? Even if it means for us to pay for administrative fee or something to to get it done That's what we do it and it will showcase our engagement, our love for our country Nigeria So it may not be total, we estimate two million Nigerians in the UK So I don't see us capturing two million Nigerians within from now to To 2023 because it will involve a lot of Cisitization, a lot of advocacy and a lot of media Media campaign. So I see us getting a substantial number that will make diaspora's relevance and In the Nigerian governance, because without us being in government Every decision made in Nigeria is just, we just appeared to be Lamino slaves in Nigeria who can't contribute to anything While our voice is not being heard. So without us being in government or participating in voting We are non-Nigerians and we feel led back and we feel discriminated against Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Ubochi. Let's bring back Mr. Nika Gulli into the conversation. Mr. Nika Mr. Gulli. Yes, I'm here. Okay. So yes before before you left I was you know trying to engage Mr. Ubochi about a subject but let's let's have you, you know getting your perspective on that The current system that we have now with the manual transmission of you know results What are the challenges with it? The manual transmission of results. I actually was hearing my chairman as what he was saying is that The the votes have been counted and then Ballot boxes Are being moved from one place. Okay. So initially Ballot boxes used to be moved from the pulling unit to the collection center for the votes to be counted But I observed in the adult governorship elections that INEC introduced a very good thing The votes were actually counted right there at the pulling units And all those who went to vote witness the votes Tell it and counted and the results announced there at the pulling unit What that meant is that there was no need therefore to now carry those ballot boxes to a collection center to To count the votes. So that eliminated the risk of ballot box snatching or ballot box It or some other votes be stuffed into the ballot boxes when it was in transit between The pulling unit and the collection center. So if INEC Can actually now implement what they tried in a adult governorship election nationwide That would totally solve the issue of a ballot box machine or stuffing of Of ballot boxes. Okay. What is left is this Can you allow me? Yes, go ahead. Let me let me let me get let me let me learn the point What INEC did in those states? by Counting the votes at the pulling unit and Made all the voters to become election monitors because what happened was that they come In the pooling unit and if I voted in the pooling unit and I know what the result is in my pooling unit I have become an election monitor in that my pooling unit What INEC now needs to do is that INEC needs to publish it's not a collection Why I think it's sort of struggling with Nica Goli there But he he you know is making a very very interesting points and for everyone who Followed up with the adult state governorship elections. You must have seen that that was the process The videos also, you know showing people counting along with the INEC officials at the pooling centers And then also, you know, those were the same figures that were sent to the collation center. So Like he said, you know, every person who participates in the election now becomes an official or rather an unofficial election monitor Which makes the process, you know, a lot and it gives them, you know, more of a sense of Responsibility, you know to participate in election process And that's what we need for all hands to be on deck to make sure that, you know, the right person that everyone has voted A consensus candidate, you know gets into power And we hope we can get our guests back because we have just a few minutes on this conversation So we also need to, you know, begin to find now that we know what the challenges are with the manual You know election system. We've seen this. We've seen this, you know, over the years how, you know, there's Violent in, you know, pooling centers or collation centers, bullet work snatching All these logistic issues that, you know, you get election results in one in one area one local government And it's to take it to take exactly because they say oh, it's in a riverine area Oh, it's far We need so all of these logistics issues that we can simply eliminate by using smartphones or the iVED That, you know, I like has brought up. Um, Mr. Bochi. Mr. Agulay. Do we have you both? All right, Mr. Nick Agulay, please go ahead with your point and then I want you to also wrap up that answer With by telling us how exactly this new electoral transmission of results would affect the face of elections Or impact elections in Nigeria going forward Okay, thank you very much So let me learn the point I was making about voters observing the counting of votes and the pooling unit The voters have now become election monitors So each voter now knows the number of the results of the election at his own pooling unit What is now left is for I need to take the next step By publishing their results pooling unit by pooling unit So that every voter in Nigeria is able to identify for his own pooling unit Whether what I make as published is exactly what was counted and declared at his pooling unit The the the addition of the pooling unit result is something that anybody can just do So I mean any excess pressure to a calculator Can now you can be used to add the the results pooling unit by pooling unit And we can have the election results for a senatorial district a household rep seat Governorship or even precedence with every Nigerian identify their votes at their pooling unit You know because the problem now is that When I declare the result at the pooling unit when now we go to the state Collection center where the results have been announced the results have been announced local government by local government So voters have now lost the link between what they observed at their pooling unit And what is now being announced as a local government result at the state collection center So I need to take that step to publish results of Nigeria selection pooling unit by pooling unit Every other thing is just addition any even primary school children can add those pooling unit Results and we can now know who is the governor of the state who is a senator who is a household rep or who is the president So that is that is number one number two your question as to whether electronic transmission of Votes we have our our electoral process the answer is a capital yes Like I say we're transferring money our money The thing that we value so much so much our money what we're transmitting it electronically So let us also transmit our votes electronically to change the face of election in Nigeria Add credibility to the process And I need to take the step to manage the risk for someone infiltrating the servers Just like the banks that are managing the risk for people infiltrating their servers You can't just enter a bank and what carry money from an account to another account no because the banks have stopped it So I next you engage competent Nigerians both women abroad All right, I apologize for that network glitch there, but here his points, you know, we're well noted Well, thank you very much to both our guests. Mr. Nick Agulay A public affairs analyst as well as mr Obochi there representing the Nigerian team diaspora organization Nido Thank you both gentlemen and do have a great day All right We'll take a short break when we come back. We're moving into our next conversation this morning which has gone going to be on the national assembly and of course it's Asking that the navy is immediately suspends its recruitment process Because it doesn't seem to be respecting federal character. We'll get into that conversation right after the short break