 Tom and I are watching you on the cloud. Yes, good. That sounded threatening. So anyway, so welcome to this first session of the Center of World Christianity here at SOAS. I'm extremely happy to have an experienced speaker for who's Welcome guests at several centers, research centers, whether they're missionary, whether they are deal with Christianity or whether they actually are deal with the disciplines, which Debbie deals with. She's always a very welcome addition to the to a round of seminars and this is of course our lunchtime seminar for which we have a number of other speakers over the year over the term sorry and so I'm Debbie will do the give us the honors of actually starting this round and the Intro in terms of introduction if Debbie needs any Professor de Borre gate scale originally from South Africa so she knows the topic very well because this is the Where she studied as well and before she came here to SOAS in order to do her PhD and this is of course where I know her from. So this is the Academic connection Has done a lot of work on various aspects of Christianity and the modern history of South Africa And if you if you have any questions concerning anything that goes beyond the remit then I'm sure that Debbie would also be able to answer them. But the structure of our seminar is that we start off with a presentation which is meant to last for about half an hour, maybe 40 minutes and then we will have a discussion afterwards. And it's I know it's lunchtime I know you will need to go to your various places but I have the I have two hours reserved on zoom so we can we can continue The discussion afterwards we can also switch off the recording if this is what you prefer in during the discussion but in the for the time being I'm recording this so that we can post it on the on the YouTube link that we have for this center. So, without wanting to waste any more time. I have a I have the PowerPoint which I'm going to share with you right now, and this is going to is going to take us to the It just means that I can't see any questions but I can see. I can see the PowerPoint in any case. So Deborah, please start and I'll be at your disposal whenever we need to change the slide slide. Right. Lovely. Thank you, Lars. And, in fact, you'll be able to pick up the chat because if you just press down below the chat column is there. It should be. It's full screen then I can't see it. Well, I can see it. I can see it at the bottom below the below the thing. Right. Okay, apologies for me not working out how to get on folks, and I hope that if you're on speaker you can actually see me but I should think it will change. So that you don't just see. Lars having his coffee. I can only see me. I can only see you last I can't see. Can everybody see the the screen. I have here. You can see me, Joseph. Okay, if you change your view in the top right hand corner. If you change your view from speaker to side by side gallery. Right. Then you'll be okay everybody. Perfect. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Right. Okay, as you can see what I'm wanting to talk about today. And I hope everyone can hear me okay and I'm wanting to talk about to 1940s crises and a Christian response. So it's concerning the Christian Council of South Africa, the Second World War and the coming of apartheid. Because at two vital moments in the 1940s, the key decade of transition to apartheid, the Christian Council of South Africa or CCSA held large significant ecumenical conferences. The 1942 wartime one was appropriately entitled Christian reconstruction in South Africa. Can we have the first slide please Lars. So you will see the cover of that conference. I am. I can see here on one now. Perfect. Okay. And you can see from that where it was held and who who printed the program. While the second the gathering called in 1949, a year after the National Party's victory under the slogan of apartheid, explored the Christian citizen in a multi racial society. And last there's a slide of the second cover for the 1949 conference, the Christian citizen in a multi racial society so you may already have picked up that the one conference happens in Lovedale in the Eastern Cape. And the other at Rosettenville, which some of you may know is in Johannesburg. The CCC, the Christian Council of South Africa itself explicitly linked these two conferences in 1949 the year of the second one. And it compared their timing and their contextual challenges. And this device was echoed by John de Grouchy in his important study of the church struggle in South Africa, where de Grouchy contrasts the optimistic air of 1942 with the much more apprehensive tone of 1949. So, in comparing these two conferences, what I want to look at are four aspects, where and why each of them happened. Who came and what they discussed. How far African Christians contributed. And finally what the findings and impact of each conference were for South African society. Central to both conferences was the British Methodist Minister, Edward William Grant, of whom we have a slide, Lars, EW Grant, as you can see something of his CV there. EW Grant had come to Johannesburg way back in 1913. So in the 40s he's already been in South Africa 30 years, which is important. He's a sort of experienced missionary among Africans. So he'd come to Joe Berg in 1913 as an ordained a young ordained British Methodist clergyman to work as a missionary among black miners and the urban African Christian elite in Johannesburg. And that's where I first encountered him when I did my PhD research on the Johannesburg area. But as you'll see from little CV from 1932, when he relocated to the Eastern Cape. He equipped and trained indigenous evangelists in an interdenominational project at Lovedale Bible School, alongside the famous Scottish educational mission institution, of which we have a slide now. Lars showing you Lovedale. And then later EW Grant headed Healdtown, the Methodists nearby equivalent prestigious boarding school and teacher training institution from 1944. And this is where of course Mandela had been at secondary school, although he had he had left by the time Grant got them Mandela was there in the late 1930s. So, despite Grant's pivotal role as the CCSA secretary for the first conference and chairman and then CCSA president during the second is virtually unknown and largely unremembered today. What appears deeply entrenched instead, when we reflect on church and society in the 1940s and 50s is a focus on high profile individuals from just one denomination by means of the coverage of a handful of radical anti apartheid white Anglican clerics. Michael Scott, Trevor Huddleston, Jeffrey Clayton, Ambrose Reeves names that are much better. Well, much better known. By contrast, I'm exploring whether indeed the 1942 Methodist led ecumenical push for Christian reconstruction came to fruition earlier and on a more representatively national basis and better known Anglican efforts at the time. And then if we think about the end of the decade, perhaps it's just as noteworthy that in 1949 the CCSA gathering had already produced South Africa's first ecumenical theological statement against apartheid. And in that 1949 conference, they laid down some practical implications for political, social and economic life of an alternative path of multiracial unity based on shared humanity under God. So, I'm suggesting that analyzing these under researched conferences, and they're still relatively unknown moving spirit provides a way of gauging and evaluating broader church and mission reaction to two overriding crises of the 1940s facing South Africa. It also makes it possible to probe the degree to which such ecumenism provided opportunities to mobilize African support and offer meaningful political challenge from the churches to the status quo in that vital decade. Now, what initially prompted a reevaluation of the first conference the 1942 conference was it's almost total absence from Dubot and Jesus fascinating demonstration of the worlds of possibilities, which were on offer in wartime South Africa, and last we've got the cover of their important book that came out over a decade ago. But what they show very interestingly is how South Africa in the 40s open actually offers worlds of possibilities. So they're trying to say alongside the Africana nationalism which was going to triumph in 1948, and the new kind of African nationalism that was being mobilized in the war years. It's actually a liberal or social democratic South Africanism, which was making a notable initial impact. It's creative ideas of social medicine. It's more generous forms of welfare support targeting the poorer black population frame the era as a short lived radical moment in the history of social policy in South Africa, the whole way of thinking about South Africa's future. Now, of particular interest to me is that there's one chapter in this very good collection that looks at the church. So Rob Skinner who's now at Bristol University and I think was hoping to sign in today. He analyzes two Christian perspectives offered by Bishop Clayton, the Bishop of Johannesburg in an influential 1944 Commission report on the church and the nation so that's something coming out of the Anglican church. And Michael Scott the sort of Maverick Anglican clergyman via the campaign for right and justice so these. This is the focus of Skinner's chapter. I was concerned that this input from prominent Johannesburg based Anglicans might give the false impression that the wider ecumenical Protestant mission community was not also caught up in the early 1940s liberal slash social democratic desire to imagine and create a better post war, especially coming from the Eastern Cape, among the rurally based mission communities in the heartlands of some of the first African conversions to Christianity, an area also described as historically for Africans, the most politicized region of South Africa. So the Eastern Cape, if you look at the map in Elfficent Davenport's book on Christianity in South Africa, the Eastern Cape is absolutely studied with mission stations. And it's also a political heartland Mandela Sosulu and Becky they all come from the Eastern Cape and from some of these mission institutions. But a central part of my initial argument is that Methodist missionaries from the Eastern Cape were vital in shaping 1940s ecumenism and church thinking about post war reconstruction. So let's just think back to them to the middle of 1941. 1941 opened up a vital new phase in the Second World War with the German invasion of Russia, allied victory was still far from assured. That same month represented a pivotal moment for ecumenical cooperation in South Africa with the future of church solidarity likewise uncertain. And yet with key Protestant leaders rapidly aiming to focus their energies on how Christians could rebuild society in the aftermath of the presumed victory of the allies over fascism. Now just a bit more about CCSA. The Christian Council of South Africa had been founded in 1936 alongside similar national ecumenical councils in that era across the Christian world. And it's these councils that are part of the building blocks of the later World Council of Churches. CCSA was affiliated with the International Missionary Council whose papers I was able to some of whose papers I was able to read at SOAS so some of my material comes from IMC material in the SOAS archives. CCSA ostensibly represented all Protestant churches and missions. You know, Catholicism is still very much a no no, at this point, among South African Protestant Christians. With the Grouchy explains the English speaking churches and the Cape and Transvaal synods of the NGK or the Dutch Reformed Church with the Cape and the Transvaal with the big players in the Dutch Reformed Church as founding members. But 1941 is crucial, not only in the war as I've said, but in South African ecumenism because the DRC, the Dutch Reformed Church finally withdrew and they set up their own church council, a federated council of Dutch Reformed churches. They finally withdrew from CCSA claiming that it was biased towards the use of the English language. And because they said they fundamentally differed with the other churches on the native question. William Nicoll of the DRC wrote frankly and crudely in the South African outlook the mission periodical that it was for the Africana leaders, revolting to think they should use at ecumenical gatherings, the same bathrooms and spaces as to quote even the most highly civilized native. So, the Anglicans for a moment drew back as well, only temporarily as it turned out, but they were thinking it was pointless to go on if the big players if the Africanas were no longer involved. So, only five years after it had been founded it looked as though the whole short lived ecumenical venture might go under. But at a representative council meeting leading quite Presbyterian and Methodist ministers urged the need for such a corporate body to make a common witness to Christian unity and work ought to go on. So I'm, those are all quotes from the discussion in the South African outlook, their journal which is also a crucial source for me and which there are many copies of so as some of the crucial years, they don't have but it's been a great source. So Presbyterians and Methodists are saying, we can't let this die. But what about the African Christians the interdenominational African ministers Association also big, most earnestly that it continue. In a unanimous epoch making decision the Council concluded that its continued existence was vital to the full Christian witness in South Africa in South Africa, and they even planned and the mentors conference as they put it for 1942. Although the equally long serving American missionary James Dexter Taylor seems to have played a pivotal role. I'm arguing that Methodists were central to the Council survival and its new lease of life. And then Archbishop, Derbyshire, later spoke of how EW Grant as hard working honorary secretary had worked miracles and save the Council from collapse. No praise was too high for his contribution is what Derbyshire later said. The Council's office indeed was relocated to Lovedale where Grant was working in this Bible school. The resident after the split with the Afrikaners was also also Methodist Arthur Wellington head or governor as they termed it of the Methodists main Eastern Cape Institution, he'll town located a mere 10 miles away. So he'll town is the Methodist equivalent of Lovedale and we've now got a picture of Wellington, Arthur Wellington, so he was a very tall and commanding figure in charge of he'll town, inevitably nicknamed the Duke, and he features in Mandela's the licenses of he'll town to the advantage of set not the team either black house master we discussed further below. But we also have four pictures of he'll town just to give you a flavor of this institution on which I've also done research. This isn't important book by Trevor Webster on he'll town, a full of photographs and full of information on the alumni, which is, which is very good. But we can also see that if we go on to the next three, that he'll town trained teachers and so some of these men who are student teachers are not teenagers they are in their 20s, and this is a photo taken in 1955 when the school was celebrating a centenary it's centenary. We've also got, I think the students. On Sunday morning church assembly which would happen out of doors and was very impressive and people would apparently the whites would drive from Fort Beaufort to join in the service and kind of see this huge massive Christian pupils and then I think we've got the church and the high school buildings. So, he'll town like Lovedale was like a little village he'll town had about 55 buildings at the, at the end, because there's a primary school for the pupils to practice in a high school and a teacher training college boarding houses dormitories, the chapel, you know, a whole thing. Wellington, the head of this important institution which grant was going to succeed him as the head of Wellington becomes the head of the Christian Council. So Wellington and grant are these two Methodist missionaries based at Healtown and Lovedale who are together organizing this, what they see as a sort of pioneering conference so we're going to now turn to Christian reconstruction in South Africa the actual in late 1941 aware of the gravity of the days ahead said grant conscious that the winds of God were blowing and possessed by a spirit of adventure for the kingdom of God. CCSA began planning a conference to consider the place and work of the church in the new world, which will emerge from the present conflict. Healt just down the road from Lovedale at the South African native college later the University of Fort Air. So, you may be able to see. First of all the location of the Eastern Cape on the map of South Africa and then towards the top in the middle of the smaller map, more detailed map you can see Alice. So, which is where the, the university was and fought both of it just to the rest of that is where Healtown was. So all these things are cheap by go. But we also have some, yeah, thanks, thanks, Lars, thanks, I don't know how to do that. We've got, I think, four, four slides of Fort Air. So this is Alice in the Eastern Cape in the sort of present day. And then we've got the more slides of, of the venerable old buildings, which is where they held the conference, think there's one more of the students. The Fort Air students. So, the premier, I mean the only lack university in South Africa in those years with huge missionary involvement in its founding so very important pivotal place to hold this conference. So, just to remind ourselves what we're talking about, we're going to go back. The next slide is of the cover again, the Christian reconstruction in South Africa. And what we have next is the actual topics of for 1942. And I'll just talk you through it. And Lars can show us the, the next slide. Okay. In terms of the program for the past three days. They were arguing that action as Christians had to spring from steadfast faith so they would first consider what they believed about God, and what characterized the redeemed individual, as well as a redeemed or transformed society so these three topics were handled respectively by the Anglican Archbishop, a Methodist Minister, and Senator Edgar Brooks a very interesting Christian educationist originally from Natal he was one of the so called native representatives in Parliament. Christian teaching in relation to the South African social order would be explored by addresses from urban social worker Miriam Janish, she worked in the Joburg City Council on the family, and Reverend Seth Mokatimi, who's the man I've done some more research on on race relations so Seth the boarding house master and he's an ordained Methodist Minister, but Seth was the boarding house master and then the chaplain at Healtown for about 15 years. And he's the only black who was asked to give a plenary talk. But he's working at Healtown under Wellington under the Duke. So, and Wellington kind of mentored Seth Mokatimi, as Mokatimi himself says, very sort of energetically and lovingly. And then Wellington was kind of urging Seth on to kind of be a voice within the Methodist church. For the discussion of church teaching in relation to the South African economic order, ironically Professor Murray of Cape Town, of whom there's more to say but I won't say it now, was going to address inequality of wealth and possessions. The four tear principle Professor Alexander Kerr would tackle inequality of economic opportunity. Professor HP Cruz, so lots of professors would answer the question, what form of Christian order is possible for a South African nation, while Reverend RHW Shepherd and well known figure in South African church life. And then there was Lovedale who was the editor of this missionary magazine, the editor of the South African outlook. He would offer a closing interpretation and summary of the results and findings of the conference. And as the purpose of the gathering. The organizer said was not merely academic discussion, but the building up of a practical fellowship of faith and service. So we have this conference as a sort of educational opportunity as well so in advance of the conference, which was quite short it was only three days long. 120 different groups across the country often into denominational but I don't know how interracial they were I suspect not and discuss these different topics set out in eight pamphlets so there's a lot of printed stuff produced and no doubt by the Lovedale printing press. So this is all to sort of raise interest and get people talking by a month beforehand numbers wanting to attend were far in excess of those that could be accommodated. Some 200 leaders in the religious life of the land from 40 churches and organizations they said were expected. The end 135 people actually came. The delegates were accredited representatives of the various churches and missionary societies belonging to the Council, but others specially nominated by them or selected for their special knowledge and experience and we've got a list last of the people that came in 1942. And you may want to just run your eye down them and you'll see it's a it represents what was in a way a strength but also a dilemma for the Christian Council that that they had been a very successful strong body that Rick Elfik draws on the records are very well and it's brilliant book on the equality of believers that there had been a general missionary conference of South Africa, which had regular conferences and produced eight volumes of different people's talks I mean this is the sort of model that I think grant is following. But the GMC the general missionary conference was missionary bodies only it was people working among Africans whereas what you have here is a mixture of churches and missions, and you've also got some extra bodies like at the top of the church Johannesburg Municipal Native Affairs Department because Miriam Janish who was the social worker lady was one of the speakers and you've got talk age they just forth from the end, and which was a kind of charitable well meaning organization that came out of the war, the First World War, you've got the army educational services as the fifth thing down so you've got quite a mixture of different bodies that were represented. What about their findings. The findings and resolutions issued afterwards began by affirming that CCSA is belief in the sovereignty of God and Lordship of Christ was the sanction for the supreme value that they attached to human personality. And it was the ground of our concern for social reconstruction so they're saying we believe in God and that's why we want social reconstruction. They also enjoined mutual respect and service with claims of superiority or accusations of inferiority being declared as contrary to the mind of Christ, so they're saying there's no room for discrimination. You might think it sounds a bit paternalistic they also said, might should bear in mind as trustees that the ward is coming of age, and then trusteeship must become partnership. Back to Dubois and Gives and the worlds of possibilities. The Council aligned itself, most with the trends that Gives and Dubois analyze in arguing that it was incumbent upon all Christian people to work for the establishment of social security for all, and the removal of distress and poverty. Recognizing this would mean very heavy sacrifices by the more privileged. The state should ensure fair work opportunities for all together with the living wage, adequate housing, and national health services so that's interesting I mean that picks up on the Dubois and that there are these very ambitious ideas which I gather Shuler Marx has said, then get kind of annexed by the, by the British for the beginnings of the National Health Service that the ideas on social medicine, knocking around in early 1940s, South Africa, and are very advanced. So, they're saying the Christian, these Protestant Christians are saying they should be adequate housing and national health services. They also advocated primary schooling for all, because the situation in South Africa of course that was that whites were meant to go to school, but blacks had no obligation and no provision for universal primary education. The schooling that is going on is by and large being done by the missions. And so this conference is saying, all kids should at least get to primary school, and they wanted a more scientific system to fund native education because native education is very poorly financed, and it's a bit hit and miss. So, what particularly interested me was what did the African speakers contribute in 1942. So, although Seth Mokatimi the the Healtown house master of the Mandela anecdote was the sole black plenary speaker of the eight officially nominated speakers. And relating the conference in an African mission and educational heartland paid off in the relatively high and high profile black participation overall. Africans can constituted over one fifth of the total, attending 29 out of 135 to go by their surnames listed and I that's what comes next I've got a list. And I simply went through the list and picked out the African surname so this is a slightly flawed approach. But it was just fascinating to see, you know unfortunately I don't have the equivalent for 1949 they didn't do this in 1949. But a third of the Africans came from Eastern Cape educational institutions you can see Fortale love Dale, the Fortale Benson veils big Methodist one Healtown. Okay. I lost my place. A third came from Eastern Cape educational institutions and a third from the Pretoria but what is around for an area the so called PWV so you've got people there from Pretoria, Orlando, which is part of the beginnings of Soweto Johannesburg Everton which is down near the Marl River, Joe Berg Joe Berg Orlando again, you know, Soweto. These African attenders included 15 ordained ministers which you can see eight graduates, although only three of them were among the clergy which is interesting, and to black women, and you'll see the name of Miss M. Queen's Town. Meena Soga had been a tambourine 1938 International Missionary Council meeting in India, which spoke of the younger and the older churches to try to get away from outdated missionary language. You know, it's fascinating to see which Africans from South Africa and indeed from Southern Rhodesia went to Tamboram so for a Stan Lake Sam Kangy, whom Terry Ranger wrote a biography of going to Tamboram was absolutely pivotal. I think he even named his house after it that for the African Christians to meet the Indian Christians and the Chinese Christians was absolutely mind blowing and, you know, someone like Albert Latuli also spoke very warmly of his experiences at Tamboram. Because the conference met at Fort Hare, two notable academics of the staff, Professor DDT Jababu and ZK Matthews, also attended and got rather nice pictures of them there. Apart from Makatimi, three other Africans opened the discussion on a particular topic so even if they weren't plenary speakers, they got to talk after the plenary speaker. So Reverend Gibi Mulefi, for instance, spoke briefly after Senator Brooks and said Africans wanted to share in reconstruction, but they were insecure, they were forced into submission politically. Furthermore, he said racial division in the church bred a type of nationalism, which weakened the spiritual structure. And then in a piquant change of program because Professor Murray had been unable to come from Cape Town after all, J.M. and Clapo, who was a politically active educationalist, ended up giving the main address on inequalities of wealth and possessions. While Kerr from Fort Hare was followed by Reverend Zedah Mahabani, long involved in the African National Congress as well. Both in Clapo and Mahabani come across a sharper in their critique and more focused in their demands than Makatimi. His was a classic almost lofty portrayal of the need for interracial harmony and the potential for black-white cooperation under maturing trusteeship. While they in Clapo and Mahabani were much more concrete and urgent in their assertions of what exactly needed reconstruction. So we've got a picture of Seth and Makatimi in his plenary on race relations. Nevertheless, unequivocally denounced segregation as following on from anxiety about white self preservation, a black peril mentality born out of fear and an unjustified sense of intrinsic superiority. Segregation Makatimi said was un-Christian. You cannot love where you fear and love is the only way of life. Instead, he said Africans have demonstrated their common loyalty to South Africa through their support of the war and surely that together with our interdependence, our common humanity, demand of us to live and work together and together evolve a humane formula for interracial goodwill. Politically, he called for the qualified franchise which Cape Africans still had to be extended to the other three provinces. He also called for Africans to be represented by their own race. You had the strange thing that had been put together in 1936 where there were four white so-called native representatives. So he says, can we please have some of our own people representing us? And he called for direct representation in urban councils. He also wanted more interracial personal friendships. And so he picks up on a biblical illusion. He says like the Macedonians whom St. Paul saw in a vision crying out for help. Non-European said Makatimi were crying out, help us feel we are men and fellow citizens with you. But there was tougher sounding talk from the more skeptical in Flapo and we'll have a picture of him next. The acute distress of many needed immediate Christian action. And for those of you who know the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, that's coming through in what in Flapo says. The problem of inequality of wealth and possessions is too urgent and its implications are too far reaching to be made a subject from mere speeches and ideals that do nothing to feed hungry mouths or to close, clothe those bodies that are at this moment covered by unsightly rags or shivering with cold against which they have but scanty covering. Without abandoning the doctrine of other worldliness, the church should instill into the hearts of the people some measure of love for this world, which after all is the work of God and home of his children, which they should not treat as an evil place where they need not build a lasting economic fabric. And in Flapo concluded by quoting the 1938 IMC Tamboram report on the oneness of mankind and the need to look on all people without prejudice or discrimination. Zedah Mahabani had a compact list of urgent injustices to be redressed, citing instances of inequality which pressed heavily upon the African people, the glaring disparity in land distribution, the lack of openings in well paid jobs such as the public service, limited educational facilities and commercial opportunities. And so he summed up such unjust conditions resulted in extreme poverty, leading to moral degeneracy of womanhood like the sound of that so much, the depravity of youth and malnutrition, the duty of the church in the light of Christian teaching was clear. The Times called for a return to New Testament standards reconstruction must involve recognition of the African share in the common heritage of humanity, removal of all color bar legislation, reconsideration of the country's land and educational policies, and the obligation of raising the standard of living of all races and colors. This was a far reaching challenge to the church to be the church in reality, and across all of national life. And this was a challenge which one of the white delegates Alan Payton, considered to have been unmet I'm running out of time so we're just going to skim through Alan Payton, because the author of cry the beloved country was there, and afterwards we can move on to the next slide. He, he felt that the conference had been a few dip down to the end, the conference had been too short to pull of sex features too hurried to permit a real discussion. It's resolution suffered on this account, but he also said that it didn't speak in words of living fire of our duty towards society or towards God. At the end of the second paragraph, he says, one African speaker declared that the church might well pack up if it did not commence to practice towards the African the brotherly duty that it preached. This sad note was sounded all too often. Its truth was profound and urging of Christians to do what they could not be. It was the black church telling the white church, what a church should be, which was a very powerful piece. And the next slide shows reminds us that a couple of years late well six years later he published cry the beloved country. But if we move on, he went on in 1953 to help found the South African Liberal Party which took a more radical political stand than the 1940s CCSA. And it was clear from his, but one volume of his autobiography towards the mountain that he had been far more influenced by being involved in Jeffrey Clayton the Archbishop of Joe book, Jeffrey Clayton's diocesan commission on the church and the nation and on which he commented that it did not change the nation but it changed me. And he then went on to try and apply its principles in the South African Liberal Party, the point being that the Liberal Party came to support one man one vote whereas in the 40s CCSA with difficulty is kind of moving towards, we'll see when we look at the 1949 conference, the CCSA was moving towards a qualified franchise but it wasn't saying one man one vote. There's more to say about the impact of the 1942 conference but I'm just going to pick up on the fact that the idea, the hope was that the church would have an impact on government policy. The CCSA wanted the church to speak out boldly to be a conscience to the nation the level of democracy, not to be content with denouncing the evils it sees but to be constructive and positive about what should be done to put them right. Society must be rebuilt so we'll have a picture of young smugs, the Prime Minister of the wartime Prime Minister of South Africa. The men from the Christian Council go in January 1943 in the wake of this conference on a deputation to see the Prime Minister, and they have three key wishes. They're worried about African malnutrition. They want better parliamentary representation for Africans, and they want the trade unions recognized the African trade unions. Smuts who is, you know, has a reputation for being wily or in Africa on slim yummy, you know, he's a bit clever. Smuts assured them your advice will always be welcomed by me and attended to by the government justice must be done to the underdog, but he was disappointingly noncommittal despite his very full answers so one author has commented. Smuts carried their requests, trying to assure the Christian Council that he shared their ideals, even if the time was not right for action. But in fact the council is so grateful they're deeply indebted to him for seeing them they're profoundly grateful for the assurance of the government's goodwill. Let's move on briefly to the Christian citizen in a multiracial society because this is the second conference. EW Grant found himself back in the saddle as the president by the end of the 1940s Wellington had died Archbishop Derbyshire had died. But in 1948 the National Party came to power on the slogan of apartheid and they, the CCSA responded in a pamphlet. The Church's judgment on apartheid, condemning the policy as contrary to the universal dignity of all. So the Christian Council sends a copy of this pamphlet to the Prime Minister to Milan, whose picture you saw briefly a moment ago, and asked him to receive a deputation just as Smuts had received a deputation. The heads of the Anglican Church, the Methodist Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Baptists, but Milan gives them the brush off he says that their views are extremely one sided and exaggerated, apart from their present political intent. They obviously stigmatized the existing as well as the traditional policy of the country as unjust anti Christian and immoral. He disagreed with their interpretation of scripture. He thought they just wanted a chance to lodge a protest so no they could not come. And so the sort of contrasting reactions is of interest. So then they go ahead and organize the conference Christian citizen in a multiracial society again they're meeting in a church institution so you've got some pictures of this urban setting so they're up on the on the rand they're in Johannesburg. And the Resettenville is a southern in the southern suburbs of Joe Burke that's a more contemporary picture of it. And the buildings they were so you can see where it is the little pin dot, and where, where resettingville is today. And about 100 people went as I say unfortunately we don't know how many of them were African I going to still keep looking and 25 church bodies were represented but we've got a couple more pictures of where they met. They met in Anglican buildings. There's a whole, there was a whole complex in Resettenville, where the community of the resurrection the Anglican order that Trevor Huddleston belong to did theological training. They ran a very elite boys school will in fact it had girls in it as well St. Peter's school. And the girls had been incorporated back in the 1920s. All of this fell away after Bantu education but these are the buildings that they would have met in that are now sort of a retreat center and so on. The interesting thing is that the affirmations of this 1949 conference went much further politically and were much more explicit about the potential shared citizenship of Africans than had been the case earlier and they proceeded from the spiritual to the social but there was no separate talk on race relations I think we've got a list of the talks, Lars, and which should come up. Yeah. There's no separate talk on race relations because the first three substantial papers were all really tackling apartheid and offering theological anthropological and historical perspectives on why separation was not the Christian option. The second half of the proceedings looked at politics, education, and the economy. We can see from their affirmations which is the next slide, what. Oh, sorry, that's that's who belongs but the affirmations show you that they were trying to affirm. God made everybody there's an essential unity. So they still have a kind of evolutionary approach individuals who have progressed from a primitive social structure to one more advanced should share in the responsibilities and rights of their new status. They're trying to say we need unity not separateness not apartheid we need the answer of the principle, what they were calling unity through teamwork. If you're a citizen you should participate in government the French but but they're saying the franchise should be accorded to all capable of exercising it so they're saying it's got to be a qualified franchise. They want every child to have the chance of receiving the best possible education this is at a time when the ideas of what becomes bond to education or swirling around. And, and everyone should be free to work where they can make best of the make the best of their abilities. The conference meant people living and thinking and praying together from various national traditions and home languages, but knit together in the fellowship of the kingdom which is not of this world said the organizers. They believe that the experience of all in South Africa that mutual respect and Frank exchange of views unfettered fellowship brotherly love can prove stronger than the forces of mistrust, isolation and fear, which infect the life of our nation. What interested me at once again is what input comes from the African speakers. Again, they're important they give two of the key presentations on politics and education, neither of which was explicitly tackled in 1942. And I see that Albert literally makes these very potent points about how the different options assimilation segregation, trusty ship were being kiboshed were being prejudiced by whites claiming to exclusively own South Africa by white spirit of domination and authority by whites not being prepared to think about full citizenship rights by whites discounting cooperation, and this is important they were thus provoking black non cooperation, and non recognition of individual black attainment in other words if Africans have, if Africans have advanced, they're not getting recognition for it. In Clark was also there and also spoke and he as an educationist was particularly skating about this education committee commission that was going to come up with on to education. For Africans Christian national education smacked of racialism subnational isolationism, very concerned about mother tongue education they feel that if they don't learn English they're not being helped in a multi racial society and a, and a global world polyglot world. He's also furious about the fact that this commission on native education which is going to bring in huge changes to African education has no African on it, you know, he says this crucial government commission on native education should have had an African on it. There is an input which is what I was interested in. Let me try and briefly draw things to a close comparing the two conferences and how political or confrontational was CCSA in the 1940s. I've argued that the two conferences and we can see they, they try and have dealings with two different prime ministers the two conferences took place under different political regimes and that shows in their proceedings and outcome. At both conferences, although Africans were in a minority their participation was greater than in the earlier years of the Council under DRC leadership not surprisingly that they're more to the four. And some of the plenary speakers like Mahabani and Farpo and literally were actually also deeply involved with the ANC alongside their ecumenical ties. There are certain themes that kept their urgency throughout the 1940s African poverty, low wages family life, migrant labor, and although economic analysis became more searching and hard hitting. We've talked about the anxiety about Christian national education and the attitudes to the franchise. What I haven't brought out yet is how strongly. In 1949, the white missionaries are nevertheless saying that although Africans must be true citizens alongside us. Jim at any interracial intimacy. Okay, so Henri Philippe, you know, the son of the famous missionary insisted that cooperation did not mean miscegenation, or ignoring fight interests, or it did not mean progressive fight annihilation. And Leslie Houston, the Methodist Minister argued there was a real consensus of opinion against miscegenation. He advocated co worship, co education, collaboration, co citizenship, but not co habitation. So, you know, it seems to me, the white leaders at the end of the 40s knew that it would be impossible to win wide support for social integration and interracial sexual relations from their fight congregations and in fact of course 1949. The immorality act is passed and in 1950, the mixed marriages act is passed unless I've gotten the right way, the wrong way around but the point is 1949 and 1950. The apartheid government is explicitly saying, you can't have sex or marriage between white and black, and this council for that for them it's a step too far to go against all of that. Clear quite on what is legitimate white opposition. So you know one leading Christian, white Christian minister says a policy of apartheid which denies to anyone, the opportunity of cooperation in the life and service of the community is un-Christian and a policy of non cooperation and hostility is equally un-Christian. So that's tricky when the national when the African National Congress is just deciding actually we've got to go for non cooperation. They're not saying violence not till the 1960s but they're saying with, you know, by 1952 they're having a defiance campaign. Grant himself seemed to go further he said it might even be a Christian duty to oppose the declared policy of the state opposition might have to be quite uncompromising, we have no right not to speak. So, there's no time really to talk about the decade to come, but there's lots more I could say about the sort of dilemmas for the church of the 1950s but I think I need to draw things to a close. Let me just read my concluding paragraph. Whatever ambiguities and vacillations the 1950s would bring the historical record suggests that we need to appraise ecumenical relations in the 1940s afresh with Edward Grant's input a particularly relevant key. Missionaries like him who worked with African church members and leaders into the 1940s I mean he spent his whole life in South Africa he didn't come back to England till 1955. They were becoming rarer but they had something distinctive to offer. Through reviving or fostering new interest in CCSA through study groups and leaflets to raise awareness and provoke wider discussion. They were trying to revive personal religion and provoke social conscientization across the broad range of Protestantism with a view to building a united multi racial Christian witness that would make an active difference in redressing social economic and political inequalities in South Africa. Their strengths and weaknesses deserve to be incorporated more fully into our understanding of that decade. The 1940s were beset by crisis sure but they were also seemingly so full of possibilities and opportunities for change. Hope they hope they would result in a greater Christian impact on South African society with a view to its transformation under God. I'm sorry we started late and I've ended late. Okay, I'm going to click off so that we can actually see you and that's. I think we're all seeing you at the moment it's. I would like to thank you for this very very interesting talk which I mean to myself. Okay, I always looked at South Africa from the outsider's perspective as part of the wider world. And at some point you mentioned the, the fact that the black congregations were meeting Indian and Chinese students and or Christians, and I think that I found very interesting, especially in the Indian case. Do we know anything about their contacts with the movement that would eventually be supported and carried by Matt McGandy, because he was not Christian of course but he was. He was very much at home in South Africa. And we'll see somehow, did he have an opinion on this or do we know anything about possible contacts between his, his, his movement, his own personal engagement and and the CCSA. Well there's a lot to say there what I was talking about the black, what I was talking about in reference to the excitement of meeting Indian and Chinese Christians that's when they go to an international conference. That's when they go to India to, I think Tambaram is near Chennai near madras. So, although there are Indian Christians in South Africa. There's quite possibly, I mean the Indian Christian community is very small, and a lot of it develops quite late. So, I don't even know if there are Indian reps at these conferences, you know there's certainly Anglican missions among Indians. The Indian Christian presence in South Africa grows a lot much later and it's largely confined to Natal. The Indians and sort of malaise in the Cape are Muslim. The Indians who came to Natal to work on the sugar plantations are mostly Hindu but then there are Muslim passenger Indians who were richer Indians who came afterwards. So the, the, the indentured labor is Hindu the passenger Indians come and set up business and import rice to sell and and so there are quite prosperous Muslim Indian businessmen in Natal and there's quite a lot of hostility between the whites and even the Africans for rich Indians in Natal. So, these, some Africans and some whites go to Tambaram and they meet the Indian and Chinese Chinese Christian leaders, who are a little bit more advanced in their passage through church leadership. And I think by then maybe as a ryer has already become a bishop, you know, that the people that Africans that Christians in China and India are much further down the road of the devolution of power. But they're that but they are eloquent and they impressed the Africans. Contact with Gandhi in Natal have been much researched. It's not my particular field, but it's terribly, terribly interesting because Gandhi is. Okay, he's in South Africa for 20 years so there is some discussion about do Gandhi's ideas of passive resistance influence after the ANC when they do. When they do the defiance campaign, which is meant to be sort of nonviolent resistance. And there are in that the ANC is working in collaboration. The ANC is still an African only organization in the 1950s when it does the defiance campaign but it's working with the South African Indian Congress, which includes some communists but there are there's Indian input into the idea of passive of the nonviolent resistance of the defiance campaign there. I don't put, I haven't personally been to this area but just outside Peter Maritzburg you have this fascinating node of, of Christian and white Christian and black Christian and Gandhian interaction because there are, there's a big Methodist African settlement, which is, if I'm, am I getting this right Joe it's Eden Dale, I think, Eden Vale, Eden Dale, Eden Vale is in Joe book, Eden Dale. And then Phoenix is the Gandhian settlement where his printing press is and where he had his sort of us wrong. And, yeah, I think john do base school or longer, which is a sort of pioneering independent African school I think a longer is also near there. So, you know I'm sure people people have researched all of this but I don't personally know a huge amount about Dubey and Gandhi and the Christian Hindu interaction, but it's very much on happening on the ground and and on the research agenda. So, but, but what in the 1940s what contact African Christians in South Africa had had with Indian Christians in South Africa I don't really know. Yes, but but that was, you know, part of a very interesting puzzle of information which, which is, in fact, this is not just worth Christianity it's actually worth history which is, which has been created against the background of decolonization, of course, and before the Cold War really sets in. So it's extremely interesting. Any other questions, people from the background, I can see you here in the in a strip on top. If anybody would like to raise their hands electronically you can also write into the little chat function. Is that Jesse Mugambi in Kenya. Yes. Yes, that's that's me. I met you in Pretoria 20 years ago. Well, the world is getting smaller. Now we can we can meet without having to seek for a visa. Yes, just to thank you very much for this presentation. Kenya was a crown colony. And that meant that it was administered directly from from London. And the separation of the races here was very much more strict than it was in in South Africa. There was a regulation of movement from the native reserves to the settlers at the settlements. So that the best of the land, which the Europeans chose for themselves. An African would be there only if he was going to be a liberal. Otherwise they'll be trespassing. That's all like happens in South Africa. But it was worse here, much worse, because it had all the blessings of the imperial majesty. And in my childhood, going to school and singing the national anthem of the United Kingdom is quite an experience. We had it growing up in Cape Town. I also sang the national anthem. And some of us would curse as we sang it. Well, we had the added problem that then the Africana nationalists brought in an alternative national anthem. And so I was 12 and with my friends, we were trying to be rebels. And so when we had to sing the stem, which means the voice. We were trying to sing God save the Queen. I don't think this was a very meaningful protest. Yeah, but I mean, but Jesse, what about the Christian Council in Kenya and its fortunes. Yeah, the Christian Council was a very, very useful instrument during those days because it brought together leaders of the various denominations. Which of course had been separated from already from Europe and North America. But the Christian Council was a very useful instrument and became a military instrument during the transition. Right. One of the aspects that is not very much talked about, of which my life is an integral part of what I call the lost decade. Right. The lost decade for Kenya was 1952 to 1962. Right. That decade is when the state of emergency was right. And the Kenyans of African descent had to be put into concentration camps. Nobody uses that word, but I have been to Germany and have seen those which are called concentration camps. And I spent part of my childhood in one of those. My goodness. Right. So was your whole family put in. Because the people had to be removed from their lives traditionally. So were you supposedly in a protected village? There were so-called protected villages, yes. But protected meant that there would be a moat that you could not jump across. Goodness. With spikes in between. And you would get out of those camps at your own period. So were you being educated while this was going on? Well, I happened to have studied in school in 1954. Right. And that was in the heat of the state of emergency. Right. It happened that my parents were Christian and they were Anglican. And because of that, they took refuge into one of those camps, which was also a military base. Right. And you can imagine being in a mission station of the Church of England, the CMS, where the missionary was a pilot of the air force of the British Air Force. He wasn't actually working as a pilot, was he? Still? Well, all we know is that the dumb bastards dropped bombs in our neighbourhood. So I wouldn't know. But I was very keenly interested. But maybe I might share this. I haven't shared it outside before this, but I think I should say it. A question was asked by Jonathan Bonk. Founder of the DSCB, Teacher of African Biography. And I was asked, when did you become, when do you think it became really theological conscious? And it was Christmas Eve, 1954, 1955. I was in standard two. And the missionary in residence, Michael at Page, made some tents to entertain the children. I was in standard two. And he told us that Father Christmas, I pronounced as he told us because he didn't know English at that time, Father Christmas, and he told us Father Christmas was coming. And I asked him in our own language, local language, and who is Father Christmas? He said, well, when he comes, you know. And where will he come from? Well, you will know when he comes back. So you get into the tent and then Father Christmas will come. I was the only one who snipped out and I actually saw him go to the back of the tent. I saw him changing. I saw him changing. And then he came and told us he was Father Christmas. A moment of hypocrisy, a moment of misleading you. And I concluded that missionaries were liars. I find it very difficult to get out of it because it was a good ceremony, but it was completely out of context. And a lot of that happened, but just to get back to the issue of religion and change. So the missionary denomination that came were multifarious. Kenya had and still has very, very many denominations, American, German, Dutch, everybody. At the same time, the independent churches were numerous. And they still remain so. So Kenya is a very diversified, has a very diversified religious, religious background. And the question you asked about the role of the Christian council was crucial because it helps to be a basis, a forum, an umbrella through which constructive criticism of the imperial government. Continue to solve that role after independence. So when we think about the transition of Kenya from colonial rule to sovereignty, the National Council of Churches of Kenya was instrumental. I would also like to say that in general, religion in Kenya did and continues to play a very crucial role in moderating and constructively changing our society. I am part of that process so I could talk about this the whole day. And so I just want to thank you very much because as you talk, I could recall and I could place myself into the narrative that you are making. Let me make one final point about the secular aspect. Kenyans were conscripted to the First World War. My grandfather, my maternal grandfather was one of the conscripts, he is fortunate he survived. And so he is one of my mentors. He became a blacksmith and was extracting iron from alluvial sand and the making tools. And so I know him as a blacksmith who could actually make metal from sand. My father was conscripted to the Second World War and was sent to Burma and India. He was fortunate to survive and I was born after he came back. And he was a staunch Christian, but you can imagine a personality like mine, the kind of background that one has come from. And so I can see that God has been gracious that some of us are going to tell the story. Now I mean I think what you have to say about the importance of independent churches is very relevant to to South Africa and so since the since the 1960s the independent churches and the Pentecostal churches have become far more important than these big power players, the Methodists and the Anglicans. I had material I didn't have time to go into that makes it clear that the Methodists and the Anglicans really dominate this Christian Council up until the 1960s and I also just reflect a little bit on the creation of the South African Council of Churches and how it differed and and the South African Council of Churches was certainly a vehicle for powerful confrontation and criticism. I just pick up on Bernard's interesting comment about the influence of Cistercians on Gandhi. Is Marion Hill Cistercian or not other Cistercians. I'm just not sure. I'm not sure I can say is that no this is Bernard, Bernard, one of the other people here. It wasn't any longer. It was Cistercian but it's another congregation now whose name I can't can't remember but for some reason it changed. Right, right. So you're saying that Marion Hill influenced Gandhi very strongly yes it I can't give you the reference but it does appear in his diaries or somewhere like that. Right you know so Marion Hill is this terribly important influential Catholic monastery in Natal from which a lot of educational as well as religious influence stems. I mean I've not worked on Catholics in detail but I know Marion Hill was very important. Yeah. And I don't know, despite having been born in Durban years ago. I left when I was five and I don't really know the geography there and then became a Cape Tony and so I don't even quite know where all these different places jostle up against each other. Not far it's a sort of. No it's it is within a half an hour at least most at most right right now I mean I think I think that sort of comment just points to a very interesting interreligious materialization and interaction that we underestimate in South Africa that that these different religious figures know each other and hear each other and, and sometimes maybe even have their, their people kind of shopping around between different options. And now the Durban scene is very ecumenical and multi faith. Right. So this is something you know, I'm sorry I don't know your background but you are familiar with all this. I would like to have been there in 2014, when I was doing some research in India, and I picked this up and stayed in Durban at the Catholic cathedral. Right. And because it has such strong links with the Archbishop Dennis early was right. You know the leading Catholic anti apartheid. Campaigner. Yeah. Fascinating. And it and it has an interfaith dimension because it has a yes it has a very strong interfaith connection now the Dennis Hurley Center for instance is a hub of a lot of work with people from all over Africa who are have problems of one sort or another employment, homelessness, refugees, asylum seekers, etc. So it's a kind of social justice center. Right. Thank you very much. This is a fascinating insight and then of course, you know, Jesse Jesse Mugambi what you said is very much. A component which is if you do historical research then you often rely on on sources which are printed by the or written by members of the elite quite simply because they have been educated, or they have access to printing presses. And this is what we then read and it's very important to listen to oral accounts because otherwise it's that becomes forgotten. So, your comment in the end that you were blessed because you, you can remember and you can make these statements is important because that will mean that it becomes part of the living memory. Sorry, that the living memory becomes part of history. And this is important that we teach that. Yes. Other questions also by those I'm aware that some are actually at work or are in the in the background that they can't raise their voices but you can type in your messages into the function like Joe have to leave us. Anybody else, then I would like to just announce the the short list of the next few presentations that will come in. And later in the autumn in November and in December we will have an evangel of the army will talk on the Mao Mao, and then, Alexander, we will talk about the Chinese, the orthodox Russian missions to to China. We have one presentation by Christopher Hancock, who's a former Bishop who will give us his introduce his book with comparative work between Confucianism and Christianity. Of course he's himself established in Oxford and he has a center Oxford house which which deals very much with the same remit as ours named the world Christianity different Christian movements in various parts of the world. And David shorter than probably just before Christmas will give us a in introduction to the his work amongst the cops of Luxor, and so in Egypt. Then in January, we have Allison Ruth Colosova will talk about her own research again focused on the on the orthodox Russian orthodox missions and then finally in late January will have Daniela. We will talk about her recent research on Lebanon, and as a final, not final but an additional speaker we will have Erica Hunter. Yes, it's just that to get the date for for for this is is a little bit difficult but it will be at some point in the autumn or in the in the winter so we will see. And you will get a list as soon as I have, as I can pin down dates because that is the problem with the speakers, but we have a relative we I got them all to agree to the Wednesday lunchtime slot. And so this will come imminently as soon as I have the last few details. So thank you very much, dear Debbie and thank you for tuning in and for being with us in these for for these. It was two hours now so this I'm actually know one and a half hours so this was actually a very fruitful talk and very interesting and also the feedback was a phenomenon. Thank you very much. Apologies for the late start. Thank you for helping me get sorted. Thanks a lot I enjoyed it. Thank you for all of you for coming. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye everybody. Bye bye.