 Amnesty International has attacked Amnesty International, saying the International Rights Organization is siding with terrorists and has no legal rights to exist in Nigeria. We're joining us to discuss this is legal practitioner in Ibaga if Yong and he's also a human rights lawyer. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Good to be. It's interesting that Amnesty again is back in the news. The last time I had to talk about Amnesty vessus the government was when we saw an anti-Amnesty international protest asking them to leave Nigeria because they were biased towards the federal government. And here we are again this time the presidency being a bit direct was Amnesty International saying that they have to leave the shores of Nigeria as they are being biased and that they should be investigated. As someone who is an advocate for human rights and someone who's followed Amnesty International's movement and speeches and all of their reports when it concerns Nigeria. Do you think that maybe the people that are in Amnesty International Nigeria have become very politicized and biased towards the country, especially the Bohari administration? This is one of the most reckless and frivolous allegations that has been made by this regime. I don't understand what they are talking about. It doesn't appeal to me. It doesn't make sense to me. The Amnesty International that I know, the Nigerians know that the international community knows has been deliberately non-partisan. Amnesty International is credible. They always make reports of public statements after thorough investigation. So that is not a group on organisation that is going to be discredited by a regime that itself does not have any credibility. What they are saying is very, very laughable. I mean, it is extremely laughable for anybody to suggest that Amnesty International has some link with terrorists or is empathetic to terrorists and so on. That is the very best-led allegation. What Amnesty International does is to document cases of human rights abuses and they have come out to see that cases of false disappearance has to stop. These are not new things. They have been documented cases of false disappearance where people are picked up at random in the name of security intervention in the South East or in the North or other parts of the country. These are things Amnesty International has come out to say has to stop. Look at the case of Gloria, the lady who was picked up for allegedly being, you know, for dating or having a relationship with a member of IPOC. Or Eastern Security Network or whatever group they claim the boyfriend has shattered with. Nobody would have heard about her if not that somebody came on social media to talk about it. She had just disappeared and you can imagine other Nigerians who are languaging, who are being held in solitary confinement by the SSS, the State Security Service, by military authorities or the police. People that are being killed in the South East without accountability. People that have been arrested without any documentation. This is what Amnesty International is talking about. We recall when the confrontation between Barata and Islamic movement of Nigeria happened in Karuna in Tharia. The government denied. They claim nothing of thought had happened. But later the Karuna State government has constituted a judicial commission of inquiry which found that over 300, if I close the phone by their own records, these are the ones they found. They're close to found the members of that group who were murdered and buried in shadow graves. Nobody would have heard about it. This was the government confirming these things. So when the government is coming out to say that Amnesty International has no legal basis to exist in Nigeria or should be investigated, I think they are just being very whimsical. But Amnesty International, like I said at the beginning, has put up so many reports about police brutality, high-handedness in the army, and most recently, of course, forced disappearance. And looking at all of those reports by Amnesty International, I'm still probing to understand, has the government reacted positively or done something to counter the reports that Amnesty has put out over the years? I don't remember vividly, especially about the police report that was abruptly refuted by the Niger police force. But all of these reports, have we seen the governments, whether past or present, act in a way that it seemed that they were trying to change the contents of that report so that one way or the other, we would look good in the face of the international community? Or are we continuously having these rebuffs from the presidency? Not at all. The government has not been responsive. The government has not been responsive in cases of human rights violations. These things are going on, and you're not seeing it. For me, it's a matter of pretense for the government to come out and try to deride Amnesty International for merely restating what is known to the public, for what matters of public knowledge. Amnesty International has documented this over the years, predating the current regime, even beyond the Bwari regime. Amnesty International has always come out to expose human rights violations, even when the APC was in the opposition. When their rights were violated, the same group of those spoke out. Go and look at the history of this organization. So for the government to say that they are partisan is just very funny to me. There is nothing partisan in the activities of Amnesty International, and they have legalities to exist in the country, and they will continue to exist. Amnesty International is not going to stop to exist because we have a regime that is opposed to human rights. We have a regime that is not comfortable with compliance with the rule of law. We have a regime that has no respect for human life. If anyone is going to be investigated for being sympathetic to terrorists, I think in the Bwari regime that has failed to restore sanity in the country, that has failed to bring terrorists to justice, that claims to be giving Amnesty to terrorists, that are killing people, that are making people, that are burning and destroying people's properties. That is a regime that should be investigated. A regime that was the saving minister that was indebted for being a terrorist in Partaitha, for endorsing the activities of the Taliban, of the Kaga and so on. A regime that had a minister that despite that garbage was defended by the president. That is a regime that should be investigated for being a terrorist in Partaitha and not a group that is merely speaking out because the wrath of Nigeria is being violated. From all that you've said since we started this conversation, it seems more like the government maybe is not very welcoming to criticism or when people are pointing out their mistakes. Why do you think that this administration is so edgy about criticisms? Because in the hands of the regime as well with the blood of Nigeria, a regime that has killed so many people by soldiers, look at what is going on in the studies. People are being murdered strategically. There is no form of accountability. People are being arrested. Look at the killing in some of the books I have still today. Nothing has been done about those who were killed. They are just going about these things that would not matter. People are being arrested strategically. Even when they are granted bail, they are still being released. I don't mention the case of Blair, the young lady who was detained. Despite being granted bail, despite an order of a judge that she should either be touched to be released before the 31st of August. This is September. She's still in custody. So you see the things I'm talking about. That is why they are afraid that people are speaking out. That is why they are uncomfortable that they are being exposed. That is why they feel amnesty is the national of the enemy. And if all that you said is glaringly true, why are we going about our businesses? I mean Nigerians. When I say we here, Nigerians, inclusive of the CSOs and the human rights activists like you. Why are we going about like it's business as usual? Why are we not screaming at the top of our voices? Why are we not doing the necessary to get our government to be accountable? I wonder. I agree with you that a lot has to be done. I don't believe we have done enough. Both the civil society, the media and Nigeria, we have not done enough. But you must also realise the climate on which we are present correctly. We have a regime that will not waste a second. You keep saying a regime. We're in a democracy. We're not in a military era. So when you keep saying regime, I feel like we're in a different country. What exactly do you mean? I haven't seen the evidence of the democracy. Everything points to the fact that this is a regime. As a matter of fact, you can call it a junta. Because when you have continent being disobeyed, when you have the National Assembly not saving the interests of the people, when you have the president not protecting life and property, when human life is meaningless, when institutions of state are not functioning, when the military is not respected, when the military lacks credibility. Look at what happened in river states where the military is bothered to have fired the navy to have attacked people in the civilian boat. And they came out to deny it. Go and look at the comments on their page. Most Nigerians are attacking death. Nigerians don't even have confidence in the armed forces anymore. That is not a democracy. Democracy must be rooted in the confidence of the people in the institutions of government. Currently, you cannot tell me that most Nigerians have confidence in the inquiry or most Nigerians have confidence in his ministers. This impunity has been vetted all over the country. So when we say it is a regime, it is not only a regime because if we have a democratic system of government, we have a president that believes in the rule of law that subscribes to the constitution, you will not be having any fractions. You will not be having the government coming out to attack a group like Amnesty International. This can only happen under a junta. This can only happen under a regime. I don't want to use the word democracy because I do not believe that there is any shred of it under the current system that we are witnessing all over the country. Does this not also indict your constituency because you are a lawyer and you are trying to tell me that the executive has so much power that it can somehow arm wrestle the legislature to its knees and do the same to the judiciary and so they take laws into their hands? Is that the picture that you are painting? Does that also not, one way or the other, smear your constituency as being incapable of making sure that our justice system is something that we can rely on and truly the hope of the common person? On the part of the legislature, the National Assembly in particular, we cannot blame Nigerians because most of them are not representing our interests. They have made that very clear. See how the doctor-delectral act amendment view. Look at their approach to constitutional amendment, how they are abandoning the fundamentals in preference for partisan matters, partisan interests as opposed to the collective well-being of the nation. We have seen how the Mother of the National Assembly have shown themselves in the example of representing the interests of Nigeria. We have seen how the Senate President, Adam Minawa, has publicly pledged allegiance to Bwari instead of to Nigerians that is supposed to be representing. We have seen how the speaker family is doing exactly the same thing. So these are people who are saving their interests. On the part of the judiciary, I do agree with you that the judiciary has to also take a great enlarge blame in the laws, in the decay, in the bastardisation of a democratic process of institutions of government. Because if the judiciary has stood up or has stood up or is standing up to the impunity that is being carried out by the executive by the Bwari regime, some of these things will not be happening. And it's very clear to me because when some of these matters come before the courts, the judges are not famed. The judges refuse to stand up to the executive. The judges refuse to insist that the order should be obeyed. Whether we see judges, some judges, being a bit too careful in the manner that they go about cases that involve the Bwari regime, which is very unfortunate, that is why judges who make orders and those orders are treated like trash can, as if the orders were never met. That is why judges who make pronouncement and their pronouncement are disregarded because the judiciary is also complicit in what is going on in the sense that judges have become very unwilling, very reluctant to stand up to defend the out-of-office, to defend the constitution, and to hold the president and the executive of government accountable. So how do we intend to bring that change about in this country seemingly every arm of government seems to be at the beckon call of the executive, and it looks like even our security agencies also are in a state of limbo. And let's not forget, 2023 is of course in view and most we hear now is about this party or that party or this person visiting that person. But then our major headlines are about numbers of people who have been kidnapped, killed, homes destroyed, schools locked down. What should be the priority of the average Nigerian today as we get ready for 2023? If the relations were today, it would be a choice between the devil and the deep loss because look at what is happening in the PDP. It is an embarrassment. The crisis in the party. Look at the APC. None of these parties are serious. Today people are the campaign from here to there. Look, in Anambra, I just read. Yeah, Anambra said just yesterday that eight members of the other assembly, they come from Abgar to APC. And you wonder why they would do that because in the recent of it, there is no difference between the two. And I've always described them as conjunt tweets. These are just platforms for acquisition of power. So for us, if we are truly interested in change, the conversation has to go beyond these two platforms. These two platforms have shown endurance that are not interested in real change. That is why when people say, oh, go and join the APC, go and join PDP, we are serious. The reality today that these parties are incapable of producing a progressive, clear-headed mandate, same rational, objective and incorruptible discipline, president or leader in this country. They have shown themselves more amenable to the things that polarize us, to the things that divide us. They have shown themselves incapable of providing by the rule of law. Look at the state that are under the PDP. What are their governors doing differently from APC governors? Absolutely nothing. It is the same culture of impurity, the same corruption, the same lawlessness that has characterized the APC states that have also characterized the PDP states. And that is why you see them in tamari. Today they jump from PDP, tomorrow they jump to APC. That is why both parties are building a judiciary, obtaining fraudulence and suspicious conflicting corridors all over the place. Making up the entire democratic system. If these parties are serious parties, you will see them adopt a chain. You will see them reform. You will see them begin to listen to the yearning and aspirations of Nigeria. But unfortunately, the battle has been shifted to the Nigerian people, which implies that Nigerian must be the ones to take responsibility to have a conversation beyond these two platforms to even demanding a fundamental change, a system change. We have gone beyond just the electoral change. We need a system change, a system that has to be radical, that has to be revolutionary. In whatever language we want to define a change, whatever nomenclature we are comfortable with. The reality today is that we cannot have a progressive Nigeria. We cannot have a developed Nigeria, a Nigeria whose economy serves the collective interests of the people. In Nigeria, a few people do not control the states of the economy. In Nigeria that is inclusive. In Nigeria that is egalitarian. In Nigeria whose president is not loyal to an ethnic group to a particular religion. That is a Nigeria that we need. Unfortunately, the current political system cannot produce that Nigeria, which is why if we are going to truly change this country, there has to be total demolition, total destruction of the current system, which will now give birth to a new system with new ideas, with leaders with new ideologies who are totally driven by an desire to change the faith of this country for the better. Who is going to stick their head out to do that because it also sounds like we are all playing the ostrich here. As much as there are a few people who are speaking up and who might be also targeted as enemies of the government or people who are against the government, how many average Nigerians are ready to stick their head out. Let's look at the voter's registration, the registration that is ongoing right now. We can see that not many people are interested and we also know the case of voter apathy. Who is ready for this change? We keep pointing fingers at our leaders but those people are a mirror of society so it means that maybe we deserve these kinds of leaders because we are just like them. We have the $1 billion question, who is really willing to stick his life. For me, my position has always been do what you can and live the rest for history to judge because as it is going, it looks at many Nigerians that are resigning to faith, people have lost faith in the entire system. Look at the kerat, the sham that was called local government relation in Lagos state recently. People didn't come out. People did not even bother. Nobody cared whether they were the local government relation in Lagos state or not. Go and look at some polling unit, Bailey had five people coming out and that is a party that finally claimed to have registered millions of people just a few weeks or months ago in the same state. But in their own local government relation, they could barely see voters come out to vote for either councilors or local government chairman. What does that tell you? There is serial voter apathy. People have lost faith in the electoral system. People have lost confidence in the state electoral commission. But that doesn't mean that we should not take responsibility at citizens. Which is why those of us who are progressive minded, those of us who believe that things should be done differently, those of us who have a different vision for the country will more find a way to organize, to governize forces, democratic forces and begin to demand change. Wether at the level of the civil society, whether in terms of political conversation, whether in terms of civil action, there has to be something that has to happen. Whether you want to call it another answers, there has to be something that has to happen that will steer the kind of change that we want in this country. And it has to be citizen driven and not government driven because what we have seen is that any process in a gistcote that is driven by the elite that is driven by those in power have failed. Wether you want to call it national conference or whatever, we have seen that when decisions are not the one driving the process or through representative of the people, it has failed. Which is why for us, it is still a long way to freedom. It is still a long way to freedom because today, unfortunately, it appears we have not really found a solution to the problems of the country but we must not give up. We must continue to press on. We must continue to fight on. We must continue to stand up. We must continue to challenge this regime and hold it accountable for the promises they made to this country in 2015 and 2019. Well, Inie Berifioong is a human rights lawyer and he's been talking to us on plus politics. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Well, that's it. We'll take a quick break and bring you a quick report and right after that, we'll wrap things up. Stay with us.