 Good day and very welcome to the fourth episode of our new webinar series, The Green New Deal, The World Needs Now. So today we are going to speak about energy. So we are entering the heart of this series with a topic that is at the core of what a Green New Deal is about. And just a few words of introductions. The Green New Deal series is a series co-hosted by the Rosa Xombo Foundation together with the Transform Network. And we are very pleased to receive you today. Last week we had a great chapter on trade deals and climate change. And today we are going to enter into the question of energy. So the core of the Green New Deal project is about to restructure our energy system in a way that our economies and societies will be supplied by clean and sustainable energy sources. But the need to decarbonize our economies and to reduce the impact of the disastrous impact of the climate crisis is the first drive of the project and the concept of the Green New Deal. But the force of this concept is that it goes way beyond this and it does not stop with the development of renewable energy. It's offered to operate the transformation of the economy with also massive public investments into renewables and clean energy. And on the other side, it is also a tool to gain citizen control and citizen and worker control over the energy system. So the concept of the Green New Deal is not only to decarbonize but it's also to democratize and to generalize access to energy, the energy that is seen as a right and a public good. And another central aspect of what a Green New Deal or maybe a radical Green New Deal is the global aspect of it. If climate change is a global historical project and has global intersections, its response has to follow the same path. It does not mean that we have to stop local or national initiatives, but they have to be grounded into a wider perspective. And to make sure that those programs that appear in the global north firstly, or the term Green New Deal was firstly appearing in the global north. So to make sure that it does not replicate the history of wealth extraction and human and natural destruction to the global south. So those are going to be the core drivers of our today discussions. And without more waiting, I will introduce our today's panelists. First, let me greet Lavigne Stainford. Hi Lavigne, you are a socials geographer and an activist working for the transnational institutes. And you've been specifically working and researching on the question of energy transition and public alternatives to privatization. You're based in Amsterdam. The second panelist I would like to actually introduce are based a bit further than you, Lavigne, for me. As I am based in Brussels, I forgot to mention it, is Natalia Carao. Natalia, very welcome to receive you today. You're based in Montevideo in New York Y and you're working for the confederation of the you're working for the trade union of the Americas confederation. And you're also part of the trade union for energy democracy groups. And finally, I want to present and introduce Lida Forero. Lida Forero, you're based in Colombia and you're Colombian. You're an economist and you've been for quite a time a colleague of Lavigne working for the transnational institutes researching also on corporate captures and alternatives to privatization. And you're working as well for the trade union of the Americas together with Natalia. So very well, very welcome everyone. And I will start with we will question to I'm sorry just to interrupt Naseem to interrupt you quickly we're having just a little problem with interpretation assignment and so perhaps if we can just pause for one moment both to explain interpretation functionality to our audience and also to take a moment to look at assignment. I don't know if one of our friends from Babilla Collectivo would like to step into speak for one moment. Can you hear me. Yes. Hi yeah they're just the issue is that the interpretation is an assigned for either Luis or me so we can broadcast into the Spanish language so I think I don't know what the issue is on the other end or if it's not on this side it's a matter of assigning the interpreters because I know the French interpreters are assigned so I can hear the French interpretation, but the Spanish interpretation I can't select a channel to broadcast into so that's the issue because I can't hear Luis either on my monitor. I understand so right now you should be. Is it, is it better. No it's just that I'm not getting the option to jump into the Spanish channel so I'm not an interpreter at all on the call, and I don't see Luis either that's why I can't hear the I don't know if anyone can hear the interpretation in Spanish but I wasn't able to hear it on my end. Okay I'm just going to try to quickly fix that. One, two, one, two, one, two, three, Yes, I can hear Luis now. Okay, yes, I can hear me. You can hear me. Okay, so we can hear everyone. Okay, so, well, we are implementing a new set ups with a double. implement our technology is a key. That's sorry, but I hear you now. Luis, I think when you're speaking so. Oh, do you have audience at the, there's a setup where you can hear me at 20% in the other room, you can mute original audio and just be on the end. You can just be on the English channel if you want to listen in English. Did you get that. If you go to interpretation options. There is the option of one of three languages that you can be in and then zoom gives you an option of muting original audio below that which either means that you can hear the source language at 20% or you can only hear the channel that you're listening to. Did you get that. I'm not really sure to that I see that. It's right underneath where you have your language options and in that drop down or drop up window that pops on the language interpretation options, you will see mute original audio to which then would just leave you with English or French or Spanish only which channel you're you've clicked on. Okay, and then I just lost interpretation. So that wasn't it. Sorry that we're having those complications. Okay, are we good now. All right. We still hear me in English. Yes. Please, Luis, do you have the toggle for the rooms on your end, because I don't have it on my end that's the issue on next to our names there should be a Spanish little circle, and we don't have that like the French interpreters have it so therefore we can't join into the into the room to so whenever you speak you're going to be heard on the on the regular room. No, I don't know. I don't see the toggle. Right so as when you were so the problem is that the so right now the French interpretation is working because as you can see next to their name on the attendee on the panelists list. There's a circle with the US and the French flag right. So we need to have that same circle as assigned interpreters that we have the option to split into the separate language rooms and provide the interpretation but we don't have that we're on our end we have only the option to hear interpretation not to give it. So that's the problem that I think Ethan was having that they weren't able to assign us as interpreters. Let's see, I would suggest that we try to begin with our first non Spanish speaker and we ask our Spanish speaking audience to bear with us for two minutes and then while that first response is being given. You go into the zoom back end and re establish their interpreters of functionality on zoom.com so as just over at TNI helpfully suggest to us the host has to first click on interpretation then you can add new and then re add them as interpreters he's suggesting you can do it live but in any case I would I would say that in just one or two minutes we go ahead and pivot to our first speaker who's not a Spanish language speaker and after our audience bear with us for those two minutes. Well, well, yeah, that's what we're going to do. And again, sorry about those troubles we are kind of trying to adapt to this to this situation. I would like to actually introduce our fourth panelist that has just arrived. Professor you said Ben Abdullah. Thank you very much for for joining us today. And Professor Eunice Ben Abdullah you're a professor at the Equal National Superior the statistics and economy application in Algiers and I would actually like to to start with a question for you, Professor Ben Abdullah. So, as I was explaining in the north, and more precisely in Occidental Europe, the concept of energy transition, switching from fossil fuels to renewables has been popularized, especially through a rising climate movement that has been increasingly pushing governments to adopt measures and to react to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to push for the carbonized economy. So, my question to you, to you, Professor is, what does it mean for a country like Algeria, who possess 3% of the world gas reserves, and work was 1% of the oil reserves, and for which the hydrocarbon sector represents often 50% of the entire GDP of the country. But without often providing democratic access to the to to the resource but what does how does, what does the echo of an energy transition what what does it, what does the energy transition really means for for in Algeria and is there like a civil movements that carries those those claims. I will, I will, I met you right now. You need to in much yourself, Professor. It's and can someone hear the professor. Can you speak right now on muted him but he is having a problem with his with his sound. I think you need to speak to him and let him know that. Professor usf we don't we don't hear you. So you need to either turn on the sound of your of your computer or to speak maybe. Mr. usf, I think you need to. You need to. You need to. You need to. You need to. You need to. Remount the sound of your of your computer. We hear you. We can't hear you here. No, we don't hear you. Unfortunately, I think that you are. Are you. Could you. Connect you are connected with your computer. Connect you are connected with your computer. I imagine. Okay. We're going to try to. I think that maybe your microphone is not connected. Mr. No, we don't hear you. We don't hear you unfortunately. I will try to switch to. To English again. We're really sorry about those. Those. Those technical problems it seems that we will have quite a complicated session today. It's a bit beyond our. Our wheel of course and control. I've seen people saying this is the, the, the start of the collapse. I hope not. We will stay in. So I might. Want to turn to. Our English speaker. Night. I have the interpretation. Can I. Can everyone hear me? Okay. Well, I will try to turn now to, to LaVinia and, and really. Hopefully we will fix those. Those issues and doing the. The run of this, of this webinar. It's a shame we have really a great panel tonight. And we really want like to. To hear all those, those voices and, and. But now I will try to, to turn to LaVinia and. I'm, I will ask you. LaVinia. So. We were supposed to have to hear the different realities of energy transition and the concept of. Of, of, of climate justice in, in different, in different contexts. But I would like to, to come back to the. To Europe now and to see. We've been hearing a lot about. The, the, the, the energy transition, especially with, with one specific actor, the European commission. That has been claiming to be championing the push for, for a transition. And we've been in different plans and reforms. I'm thinking about the clean energy package and, and orders. And before the, the, the start of the, of the COVID-19 pandemic. We were hearing a lot about the, the green deal proposal. That is the new plan proposed by the, by the commission. And today we are talking about the green new deal. We are talking about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the green gas emissions in Europe. As well as the developments of, of renewables. We see. First that we're not. At all aligned with the, the, the target set up by the, the Paris agreements. And also that's the light, the. The liberal approach promoted by the, the European commission. Has not. Has failed to, to, to really in store a, a, a, a, a poor fool and a democratic transition in Europe. So I would have liked to you to, to, to talk to me about the response, especially from, from movements and. People organizing around the, the, the need to. To promote the energy democracy, the control of, of energy and take back. Take back. Energy between the citizen hands. So if you please could. Elaborate a bit on, on that point. Yes. Hi. Thanks and see, and I'll be organizers. Am I clear? Are people hearing me? Great. Okay. So let me briefly take my notes also. Yeah, I would be very happy to explain why energy democracy is crucial for achieving a socially just transition. And then how communities, trade unions and public authorities can join forces to build it. Because if we don't deepen the democratic ownership and organization of our energy systems. That keep our lights on our house is comfortable. Our food and medicine school and many of us connected. Then these dirty exploitative activities will prevail. So whether it's in the form of multinationals or corporate corporatized state on utilities. So the Green New Deal for Europe was kind of formed to turn the months for climate justice into policy proposals. But as you said, indeed the following European New Deal launched by the European, European commission continues to focus on economic growth. But communities across the world experience that economic growth in favor of big businesses blocking the transition. Because over the last years, the transition has been left to the private sector. And this has resulted in a surging energy bills, massive job cuts, lack of investments and higher costs for local authorities. So we've seen a massive drop in renewable energy investments over the past years. Also in Europe, in China and in the United States. And research by trade unions for energy democracy in particular has shown us how the initial growth in solar and wind convinced many governments to that the transition no longer needed subsidies and they decided to revoke feed in tariffs. But without state support and with lower prices for renewables, markets don't deliver the high returns that private investors are hoping for, are looking for, right? So to show how residents and communities and municipalities are changing this paradigm, we've investigated with partners that over the past years, more than 1,400 re-municipalizations have happened across the world. And the majority of them happened in the energy sector. So for example, the grassroots energy vendor in Germany has pressured many local authorities to reclaim gas and electricity grids, but also to create public supply companies. But then next to reclaiming our energy systems on the local level, which also, of course, needs to happen on the country level, on the regional, on the international level, we also see that municipal platforms and value-driven public policy can lead to more democratic energy policies. So very briefly some small examples. The city of Plymouth in the UK has supported its residents to create Plymouth Energy Community, and this has supported over 20,000 households to save more than one million pounds on their energy bill in total. And they also created a solar farm that provides a source of income for the marginalized surrounding community. Or like in Cadiz, the south of Spain, the municipal government has created roundtables, one to tackle energy poverty and another for an energy transition, which means that it has been structurally engaging its citizens to democratize its energy systems from the ground up. And as a result, residents have co-designed an alternative energy discount model that is now being piloted by the city. So to kind of co-govern and co-create policy with residents is, I think, a very important lesson here. Or take Burgas, this Bulgarian city has actually retrofitted half of its residential buildings. And this was completely paid for so that low income residents could participate. And it not only led them to substantially less emissions, but also made the homes of people much more affordable and livable. And then I think it's a very important figure launched or promoted by energy cities that when an energy project is entirely locally financed and controlled, this creates eight to ten times more value than when it's in the hands of an external operator. So project communautaries have been managed eight to ten times more value than a project created by an enterprise. Oh sorry, I hear French now. Yeah, sorry, I think we're just having a little again, a little problem. Can you speak now, LaVinia? Yeah, do you hear me now? Yeah, we do. Okay, okay, cool. Yeah, so maybe just to have two more minutes if that's okay. Sure. Yeah, okay. So it's kind of to show that democratization of our energy systems is already happening locally. And that we need to scale this up and make sure we cover entire territories, right? And we need to make sure that we cover entire territories, right? And work together on an international level. But as long as privatizations continue to set the scene, then an energy transition is very unlikely to succeed. So as Naseem said, the European Commission pays lip service to community energy. But actually because of all this competition that benefits the big fish, this actually leads to bigger market monopolies, right? So in the last year, we've seen energy cooperatives, small scale ones going bankrupt in Germany and Denmark. And this will happen elsewhere too, when we continue to focus on competition. So to counter this, what if we as countries and cities and energy communities would stop competing each other, but work together to activate, to advocate for democratic public ownership and finance and cooperation on all levels. Right? So the national, the regional, the international, but also the local that I was speaking a bit more to. So by working together, we as social, labor and environmental justice movements can really organize the wider population in order to call for those green new deals that replace public-private partnerships with pro-public, pro-people-powered and system-wide coordination. So we're working together, because, yes, only this can ensure that the most oppressed groups in society, from poor families, indigenous communities, people of color, to women, trans and non-binary persons can, can really drive and co-determine their regenerative and redistributive energy models of the future. So the Just Transition Workshop report that came out, I think, in the last couple of years, the Just Transition Workshop report that came out some time ago in English is the outcome of such a collaboration and I'm sure Natalia and Lida will speak more to this because during this workshop that happened in October last year, environmental justice groups and trade unions like Tuca shared how they have been jointly organizing towards the Just Transition and how we can build on these alliances. So to, to slowly close what I, what I prepared for, for a Just Transition we also seriously need to practice energy conservation. This fundamentally means reducing and changing how we use energy by treating it as a common need, a human right and public service. So calling for energy democracy can also help us to rapidly de-grow or divest from fossil-fueled industries like mining, agriculture, construction and transportation, but simultaneously rapidly revaluing and investing in care work, sovereign food systems and the many public services on which our collective health depends, right? So maybe just a final note on finance. It's clear that private finance is so much more expensive than public funds because of excessive profits, sky-high consultancy fees, also expensive outsourcing and the interest rate that tends to be double for the private sector. So what if we no longer leave the transition to the market but start investing these public funds directly into a Just Transition and globally these amount to over 73 trillion US dollars, but of course these also need to be desperately democratized. So for Green New Deals to be fair on the global level we clearly need to call also for global tax justice, international debt cancellation, a UN-binding treaty for multinationals to hold them accountable and bringing down trade deals such as the Energy Charter Treaty. And all this is of course crucial to also force neo-colonial governments in the Netherlands where I live to start paying their fair share of the climate crisis because it's key that unconditional climate finance will be channeled to frontline countries and communities so that the so-called global south, in the so-called global south, so that people from Chile to Nigeria can really start to build their own energy democracies on their own terms, right? In other words, a global Green New Deal won't happen with decarbonization only, but the future can be renewable when our systems are deprivatized, democratized and decolonialized. So I'll stop there. Thank you very much, Lavinia. Thank you so much for this very comprehensive explanation and mapping as well. And I think we will, hopefully we will have time to go back to certain points that you have raised. That was really great. I just would like to let everyone know that it looks like that we are fine right now that the translation is working from English to Spanish and should be working from the Spanish to English. So we will, I thank all my coworkers that have been a great help in this. It happens and it's the risk of the live sessions that we are trying to broadcast and bring to you. But now I'm very happy to pass on to Natalia and Lisa and to try to have another view from Latin America and from the trade union's perspective as well. So you're both working for a regional trade union organization in Latin America where transnational oil and gas companies are really present exploiting resources and workforce. And the region counts with many economies and nations largely depending on extractivism. I'm thinking of countries like Chile or Ecuador but Mexico also and we have the cases of Colombia and Brazil as well. And it's often a place portrayed it's like we often hear stories about communities that are suffering the high prices of extraction being the distinction of their minds or the displacements of their communities and the murders of activists who stand up against those crimes thinking about Colombia as an example of that. So my question would be what does it mean to fight for climate justice in this context in the context of Latin America and how this relates also to the concept of energy democracy that Slovenia has just very greatly explained. And so for everyone that will listen to us and want to hear the translation need to go into the English room right now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's OK. I'm going to pause you for one moment, Lida. . preparado en español, si no es posible, no es posible, si no es un problema, pero no está funcionando muy bien en este momento la interpretación. Escuchamos usted en inglés y en español, todo al mismo tiempo, es todo mezclado y un poco difícil para nuestro público. Sorry, we're having a little bit of a problem. Our folks are aware of this. We're listening in the public that we're hearing Spanish and English simultaneously on the interpretation channel. I have talked with our interpreters. They believe that this is a problem of Zoom, what should happen normally is that you click on a language and then you mute original audio. And the mute original audio button is not working for most of our public right now. So bueno, usted me diga lidas, si no es posible, para usted, si es demasiado difícil de entendemos es posible de entender y de comprender. Pero es difícil para escuchar bien la situación en la que So I prepared in Spanish. It might be a bit challenging. I can try. I can do my best. The only question will be if the Spanish speakers, the people who only understand Spanish, will have interpretation. Yeah, otherwise they are excluded. de español y ustedes van a poder escuchar la presentación en español en la cadena de interpretación para todos que estén todas y todos que estén ahí. Perdón, gracias Lida por acompañarnos en este momento un poco complicado. Yeah, okay, I'll try. As I said, I prepared it in Spanish so it might be a bit of Spanish maybe when I'm speaking because I will like take my notes from Spanish, but let's try. So Natalia was mentioning the importance of the plaza, the America's platform for America's development platform and how this has been the space where we developed the different positions and what I will now present is more thinking on which are the main elements of the work on energy transition, energy democracy and like the main points that we want to focus on. And the first one is of course the center of labor work in this case, I'm sorry, the center of work when we talk about any political alternative politics. So for us it is it is key to acknowledge the importance of work in the in the whole system, in the production, but also as a way of the realization of the human being know and how when we discuss about just transition or energy transition we need to focus and start from that point. And at this point and at this moment in particular with the pandemic but also before there are a lot of threats on understanding the importance of work and it's an attempt to try to diminish the importance and say work is not anymore and then the working class doesn't exist and now it's like going into flexibilizing and the precarity of the of the work conditions and we have a lot of examples on how it's happening that has been implemented in Latin America for a long time and we've unfortunately with the energy transitions corporations are trying to push even further into these ways of precarity and flexibilization and undermining the centrality of the work. So when we discuss about energy transition we also need to bring back in the center the discussion about the quality, the type, the conditions of any job that is created with the transition. So it's not only changing from one source to the other from fossil fuels to renewable energies for example it has a lot of things to add and the central one for us is to put work in the main in the center of the discussion and yeah of course work and life you know it's we are not talking something as opposite to the other and I think both Nesim and Natalia mentioned that when we defend work we defend life and the conditions of life. So for us that will be the main focus and we are seeing now with the pandemic how this is not in the center actually is the opposite any proposal that comes or most of the proposals not any we need to acknowledge that most of the proposals that come from the companies and from the governments are not putting that in the center thinking more on the economy and how to recover and then it's supposed to at the end relate to life at the end relate to work but for us the change should be different and the starting point is completely different and that's what brings dignity and decent jobs and when we talk about work there are two things that we would like to add in this dialogue with other organizations that is first the reproductive work is not only the productive but also the reproductive work and that is key when we talk about energy transition because usually many of the of the activities and work related to reproduction and that has a an important link with the with the use of energy assigned to women so talking about energy transition is also talking about feminism and and also another point that that we are in this dialogue is is the work both from the cities and the rural areas and the countryside so it's not only urban workers who are discussing about energy transition it's also persons and rural workers who come together into this into this discussion in that sense as I said before no we understand energy transition as a class question and we we think that power relations and control determine who control yeah who controls the sources and the uses of energy who controls the property and how property yes as Slovenia mentioned needs to be public but also democratically control and we will add to that also the question of technology how technology needs to be publicly and democratically controlled and discussed and how knowledge needs to be understood from different regions Natalia was saying before it's different to talk about energy transition in the north and in the south it's different to talk about technology and knowledge and we need to to recognize the the knowledge sources and the different wisdom both in north and south and from that build a social appropriation of the technology second point that I would like to go into is the is the democratization of energy itself for us one of the like historical dimensions of the of the of the struggles in Latin America has been against privatization and this this is linked to what was mentioned before by by Lavinia the importance of of public property public control and access to energy understood as a right as a human right and the the property of the the common property of the common gods of the commons when it comes to energy is is central in our region and that has been also something that has allowed to to bring to the together different struggles from different movements and regions fighting against privatization and fighting for the democratic and public control and that's like one of the main historical traditions of the of the workers struggles and now it takes like a different stage a different level when we talk about campaigns for energy democracy and when we bring that discussion into environmental justice and public companies and in this discussion we have been identifying like some principles that we would like to bring into the discussion about energy transition which are as I mentioned democratization the privatization which could be linked to reminiscualization decentralization and the concentration that is how the energy system needs to change we talk here about the system and how it needs to change and challenge the existing privatized commodified system that works for the profit so in this context one of the main discussions in the region is how to fight against the energy poverty so if we identify acknowledge and guarantee the access to energy as a fundamental right we are also tackling that question on on energy poverty democracy is also linked to what you both mentioned before in terms of of rights fighting for these things can cause people's life that's happening not only in Colombia unfortunately it is happening in Colombia but not only in other countries in the region it's happening and more and more with this confinement situation that we are in so how we talk about democracy access to energy and bring both together and talk about peace as well no that's that's part of of the discussions and I think it's um uh we we would like to to I would like to finish because Natalia will then come back um adding on on the question on on how to transform the system the energy system no we we need to go a little bit deeper into what we are talking about um of the transition not only talking about sources talking about transforming the system involving different elements of of the discussion um and of course bringing the centrality of the social dialogue and the and the fundamental uh workers rights it's not uh just to say some governments are are fulfilling the requirements that reduce in the greenhouse gas emissions or are presenting um really ambitious uh targets uh with the NDCs for example we have the the case of Chile where they presented they presented the the the NDCs they were acknowledges one of the best um governments but at the same time we saw how the Cup couldn't happen in Chile because of the human rights violations last year and how that continues today on the 1st of May people from Chile were put in prison tortured because they were protesting against the the undemocratic measures to to present these NDCs the Chilean government didn't uh discuss with with the unions didn't take into account any organization to see to to discuss which should be the country's proposal so we cannot talk about energy transition or just transition without bringing into the into the discussion the position from the unions from the organizations and from the the democratic discussion on rights um yeah so I will I will leave it here and Natalia can add to finalize okay I will do my best it's it won't be as good as Lita and please Lita and you can jump in whenever you see I get stuck to help me okay well um I will try to read some of the notes that uh that we had in in Spanish but into English so well in in um just to wrap up in in the Americas the development models that have been um promoted historically are dominated by neoliberalism ideas so um the responses to the questions about development and social justice are a very um um Lita, Exclusiones, a very uninclusive very uninclusive uninclusive okay with popular classes with working class people and particularly uh uh working class people so the discussion in Plada in that programmatic statement that that Tuka has developed is um is it goes to the to the heart of of discussing the production and consumption model before the the pandemic we were saying in our region that um the that that we are suffering the the the effects of climate change and that and that that uh suffering is um multiplies the inequality in in in in the whole society and that and not only that but also that the deficit that we have in institutions and in mechanisms to protect a environment along with human rights are are very bad uh so um uh we it's very difficult to guarantee that we will have policies that attend a mitigation and a adaptation to climate change in this context um we were discussing before the pandemic a how a just transition how we need to uh or orient um we need to put just transition a um a how we need to put sorry human rights along with just transition discussions um especially when talking about a violation of labor human human rights a about a a threats against democracy and the need to put an end to a precarity in in brazil before the the pandemic one of our trade unions that is affiliated to Tuka could brazil that is very well known worldwide it was promoting and is still promoting a discussion about just transition among workers especially from the electricity sector and the and the energy sector in in in general and they they they were working and they are still working on trying to get to uh um to know what a what is um what what how is living a work in the energy sector and what are the needs that they that they are what are the threats and the and the challenges that they are facing in in the discussion about how energy is being transforming so transformation because of the the the need of governments to attend climate change and they always said a even in the in the renewable sector they are working in those sectors also and they always said something that i think it's very illustrative about how about the reality that they are living and they they they always said and daniel gaio is in is is participating in hearing us and he's the environment secretary of kut brazil and he always said that a a what a um in uh let me think how to say it in english um it will be the cleanest the energy the dirtiest the job that that will be yeah so it's very difficult to think about the renewable sector and the need to have more renewable energy with this context and we uh we ask ourselves is this the green new deal for our region is this uh reflecting what the green new deal will look like in our region in our countries uh now we are facing a context that never seen before and even though this is very new for all of us in the world some of the debates that we were having in in the cup in in madrid and uh also before the cup and and and the and the in the other cups and other discussions are very um uh actual and and we can we can still say uh we can we can still recall some of those uh uh debates uh um in in in the trade unions we always when discussing environment we always uh thought that we had um uh two opposite things the environment in one side and labor in the other one as it as if it were opposite and and we always said in discussing these issues in took up that they're not opposite even though we sometimes stand apart from environment organizations or we look like standing apart the experience in the region is that we try to work with each other and try to have collective common perspectives about these issues and um and and in this context with the pandemic the the opposite issues that are being that we are facing in a very dramatic way is is about living is about getting sick because of the covid 19 or starving and that's a very a a very huge opposition and people here working class people here in all our countries are facing nowadays this opposition that we believe it's false but they are facing it in in a in a daily routine reality they're asking themselves every day if they have to go to work if they have to earn their income or they would they have to be they have they have to get sick so that changes a lot about how we are uh going to face the environmental crisis or environment or a climate emergency because how and well I will I will go along and I I I would like to say also that in these alliances that we are building and they're they're historic and they're they they're the the the ground basis of how we think and we fight some of these challenges in the region with other social movements and social organizations since 2015 we have built what is called in Spanish jornada continental por la democracia y contra el neoliberalismo it's like a political platform in alliance with the peace and movement the environmental movement and social organizations that are fighting against the debt the public debt of countries and other organizations and that is a strategic field in which we are fighting and putting these issues also in the environmental challenge the the social justice challenge the social the economic justice challenge um lida if you want to help it's if you're right we will thank you so much uh uh okay lida and and and atalia for well yeah uh giving out this this critical view of not only uh the vital necessity to change the the energy system in latin america but the fact that it can only change if there is a global um reaction to the way uh energy is view and produced and extracted and um that's i think i would like to ask livinia after her having heard the those just the testimonies and the the importance that lead up at the the question of property and and and public ownership or democratization of of energy to actually have and not to top down uh only uh process of of uh of decarbonization but the real uh transformation uh that would lead to to uh to not only uh decarbonization or transition but just transition where people are taking back rights on their on their um around the energy the the the production and the distribution of their energy and um yeah i would like to ask you if you have um examples of of those um um citizen movements or or order uh other examples in europe where uh communities have uh i've claimed and taken back their their their energy you've mentioned the the canis and pli move but maybe you could also explain the the different strategies and the different alliances that that are leading to those uh to to to claiming back energy uh yeah thanks for for that question and also uh a lot to lida and natalia it was uh interesting very interesting to to hear um the importance of of work and social reproduction and the many fundamental issues you raised um in terms of um going from a a top down corporatized model that we now see uh to a kind of bottom up grassroots form forms um there are different examples in the energy sector and beyond um but maybe um i think it's very important to to raise some of the proposals that we have seen both from from spain katalonia and also from the united kingdom where there have been uh strong proposals to um deprivatize and democratize for example the distribution grids in spain um but also for example um the uh radical left um by Jeremy corvin and how bringing back bringing home energy was a report for example uh that came out last year that really showed how um there can be a very different energy model that is differentiating between a national energy agency regional ones um municipal ones and community ones right and how these can complement each other need to complement each other so that um you can have um decision making as close to home as possible so that the decisions that are are influenced by the people that are affected most by these decisions um and then for example there is this uh small um model but i think very important from wolfhagen in germany um where they have reminicipalized the grid but they've done that together with a very strong public debate um and that resulted in um the citizens or the residents organizing into a cooperative to raise the kind of uh money needed to pay for the wind turbine um and as a result they are also now on the board of this uh local electricity company um and the benefits are then much broader right so so not only terrorist went down in terms of fighting energy poverty but also uh the number of staff in the electricity company almost doubled and also kindergartens were then subsidized and it's a small example um but i think it's important to show uh the the massive and numerous benefits that uh can lead um an energy transition that bring that can bring an energy transition um but also to say i think we we have only really started to grapple with these very complex questions because um the example i just gave from wolfhagen we do see that there is an equation with um citizens and having the finance to invest in the energy transition that then get a seat on the board of a company and that this is not um the democratization we need it just doesn't go far far enough right because energy when we understand it as a human right and as a need then um just being a resident not even a legal citizen should be sufficient to give input and to uh influence the kind of policies that we need so that we're not left behind as residents um uh just because you you are living in a certain place and because you need energy to survive so i think you need to really um go much further than the current um energy policies we now see in in europe where this equation between citizen finance and citizen participation is um it's reducing the democratic potential uh that is needed thank you so much la vina um i thank you for for those those heats and those those um yeah the stressing those possibilities and i would like to to turn back to to natalia and leader um around the question of you were mentioning the need of of building strategies and within those strategies uh the importance of of work of work and protection of life and um and you were mentioning the the the trade union again the trade union for energy democracy initiative that is uh putting at its core the the solidarity between workers pushing for for a trust transition um what do you think are um the different possibilities of building a new strategy new alliances um maybe also uh seeing well with a covid crisis uh reaching out especially to affecting workers and frontline communities first uh of course in the global south and in the global north as well uh is there do you see new movements and new alliances in the energy sector that could together push for a real uh transition that's that's a question i to to you leader and natalia whoever wants to to start um yeah i think for for tuka it's been always important to to strengthen unity among the the popular um field if we can call it like the popular classes or people's classes i think it's is the best way in in english um so yeah unity as as a strategy to fight the challenge that we are facing now and and that we we all were mentioning before it's it's key and of course like we we talk from the regional perspective the america's perspective and that includes a north and south dimension and exchanging with other movement and movement and organizations is part of that work uh with social movements but in this sense what what we have privileged in in in the past years has been exactly this this alliance that natalia was mentioning the the jornada continental um which is also builds on the historical work and and relationships um so like creating new alliances and new strategies i think it's it's something that that needs to be built on on on in terms of the of the current situation and the platform um but it's based on what we have been working until now no it's based on on the principles that we were presenting before and how this can contribute to unity from actually the these people's perspective putting work and life in the center and facing the the corporate attacks uh and the human rights and labor rights violations so from that uh we could discuss uh i think it's it's key to think on on on the on the unity also for for unions no and that's been a process that tuka has been uh putting a lot of effort and energy in the past and right now it's one of the main challenges when when the work is questioned as a central aspect of life uh but at the same time when this situation shows us how important work is and how dependent we are we all are on on what is called the basic uh jobs that's when when we need to build more unity and i think um also bring in uh all these dimensions of of of the work and the struggles into this new strategy i don't know natalia if you want to add something no just a um one thing it's a this discussion is also a facing trade unions to think about how um what are the the structures of trade unions and what type of trade unions we need in this context in the past one before the pandemic but also and especially in this context and that's a very difficult question because it's um reviewing what we are doing and how we are helping if we are uh workers well thank you very much i i would just like to ask because we have five minutes left and and um we were um we were we were unfortunately missing what one one panelist but um in different presentations you've been talking about the the the COP and as a space uh that is what it is uh often captured by by by corporate power and uh big energy industries or big industries but also a place where movements are actually meeting uh building uh strategies links uh getting to know each other um so do you think there is this debate or is is the COP a place that should be um um boycoated by by by by movements and and other uh other groups or should it be a place used to actually uh enter the to to to make uh claims and to to to gain space and visibility as well um knowing that the COP the next COP will not uh the COP that was uh planned this year in Glasgow will not happen um do you believe that uh there is a need for a new for new spaces to be to be built by by movements and uh organization towards uh this question like toward for example the the the green new deal and a global green new deal how do we who do we build that how do you think there is still um that the COP is still a space that can be that can be beneficial for for for different movements well it's a very huge question and i'm i'm afraid i can't uh answer it in in a very uh definitive way uh but uh what i what i think that is most representative of trade unions view in that sense is that uh what i said in when's the first uh part of the of the of the intervention is that uh took always thought about the cops as a space um that is um i don't know how to say it in english it's a disputa it's a space where we are struggling dispute dispute dispute dispute space i'm not sure if that's correct so it's the attention the the world is uh putting the attention there and the negotiations it was uh a very good thing in madrid to participate in facing what chilean government is was saying in the COP and in every opportunity we had we we said it and we said that it's not it's uh it's not legitimate for the chilean government to um uh being um to preside presiding being the presidency keeping a the presidency of the COP when it was withdrawn from from santiago the chile because of from chile because of the the the protests and and ultimately because the government couldn't face what the social justice demands were coming from from people so i think that our strength i will all say it again our strength inside the COP it will be enough if we have a if we are strong and and if we are very noisy in the outside and that means getting together and in alliance with other social movements and that also means uh understanding that it's uh they're they're not uh there are very there are a lot of uh false oppositions uh work environment labor environment but also this one in this context um dying of hunger or dying of a disease and we have to understand that environmental justice goes along with uh labor justice with social justice and we can't claim that for instance we can't claim that chilean government is a very good government because it's attending is there's a NDCs uh updating their NDCs and giving a response a governmental response to climate change if they're we're repressing people in the streets and if they're if they're not calling a the a trade unions and workers to discuss what are the the actual policies that they are going to implement to face climate change it's if if we are not in unity we're we're very we're very lost and we are very alone thank you maybe quickly lida and and and la vina just some closing words around that um i think i think what natalia said is come yeah she she collect i i will just add yeah the struggle is is global i agree but the differences in between regions are big so how can we think on on this needed an urgent transition also understanding and taking into account those differences uh and not deepening them uh actually the opposite how can we just push back into those inequalities into those differences into those uh rights violations that happen in different regions how can we push back instead of deepening them that's the main question and that applies in between regions and within the regions maybe just a small um follow-up on that um yeah um i guess the need to break open the debate the formal debate of the cope and of the just transition mainstream that is far from just far from a transition so kind of to delegitimize those false solutions that have so many shapes and manifestations but to bring the kind of yeah people develop solutions to this space to these spaces and make as much noise indeed as possible um maybe just uh yeah some something that that uh i i thought of well well uh the others were were contributing i feel the um the way of course the clean energy the more dirty the this the power structures and and exploitation in a way i guess also in terms of the whole reduction of a renewable transition i i think we also really need to see how renewables are sourced and really going into the the bigger economy um the value chain so to say um in terms of how we we can have community um ownership over these resources and and deciding prior with their consent about how these these resources are used for whatever renewable technology in the in the future um and also how we relate to land i think is a very big issue so where to put these kind of so-called renewables um and um and not to be extractive so how do you relate to to um land issues and the people that live on these lands and how they can really be um the ones who own and control uh and decide on how this is being developed and that their access to energy is first guaranteed so um yeah just thanks for for uh for the other speakers and the organization of this space oh thank you very much um and i think that we we can try to to conclude on on this and i would like to to reassess some some very important points and i think that those are starting points uh and uh fundamental questions that need to be taken when we are speaking about uh the Green New Deal um and what and especially in the north when we have uh all this discourse about uh bringing renewables uh and and it's done basically we we often hear uh the the the image that if we just switch the the alimentation from from uh dirty energy to renewables then we are we we we are safe and we and we succeeded and what what i what you've been all together very stressing is the i think the importance to to actually state that decarbonization uh and and and transition will not happen actually will actually not happen if it doesn't put into its core uh the question of of labor in the question of uh of ownership and and and democracy so i think those three points are are central and uh as you also lead are actually stressed it out a couple of times the the importance to recognize the difference uh between the struggles uh the the the real life dangers that are uh uh facing every day uh activists in in latin america in africa in asia in other places so to recognize them and not to recognize them to to better to better wall or to say that we cannot reach out to the to the situation but to actually try to to to build on uh on not only solidarities but concrete actions um and i see a lot of responses in the chats and and samuel who has posted the the the great summary and work that has been done during the the counter summits of the cop in in uh in uh in madrid and i think those spaces are are there to to build those those those common strategies um to i think what we were also trying to to develop with uh with today's webinar and and the series is to actually have a critical but constrictive position on the green new deal we we i think all see the potential that a real uh fully implemented uh taking into uh all voices into into its core of a green new deal that can have but uh but it needs to be it needs to be comprehensive and to to to have those discussions before so um again i would uh thank very much a lot of people for uh making this this webinar so interesting uh critical uh although the very complicated technical situation that we that we've been facing so thank you very much to our free panelists i'm very um i'm a bit sad that we didn't uh we couldn't access to the the professor ben abdallah who couldn't make his presentation and present us the the question of uh of of algeria but uh hopefully it would be a next time so thank you very much to natalia alida and la vina thank you so much to the the great uh the great interpreters who have done a very great job uh in spite of the the the complications uh thank you my colleagues itan and hayran who's been who've been of a great help and that's that's nice to have those uh come on uh come come on eight mutual aid i want to say and thank you very much to all the attendees uh for bearing with us bearing with those uh with those troubles and uh we will come back stronger and we've uh we've a better uh interpretation and installment but again thank you natalia and lida for having accepted to switch to to to english uh we know it's it's totally not what we what we expected and one wanted to ask you but thank you very much for for doing it and doing it greatly and we will um soon update you with the coming episode so thank you very much for for being there and we see you all soon