 Hi there, how are you good? How are you? Oh? I've had a headache since Friday. Oh No, since Friday. Yeah, it's I'm dressed like a lumberjack today. I'm just That's a long headache. I know I know it's my grand kind of stuff. Yeah, it keeps like Like it was a migraine on Saturday and then I got a little better and then it got really worse and just keeps going back and forth Super annoying. Yeah It's difficult to focus and work and so Yeah, it was a way It hurts when I lie down though, so I'm working Always I would have just taken today off. Yeah How you doing good good Lots of work but busy in a good way, you know, not too not crazy busy, so But not overwhelmed. Yes Someone reminded me that today's Groundhog's Day. Oh, yeah. Oh, I have to go watch that movie tonight That's a classic Hey, Charles, how are you? Doing good hanging in there. How about you? About the same Look at the agenda. Yeah, so regarding the Framework, uh, it's still with Scott, so I don't have any updates on that sense So, I don't know. Hopefully he'll join. I know he was going to interview a few people. So Once that is done We'll help hopefully More and can start sharing stuff. I can't wait for Hello Yeah, I feel like I haven't seen you in forever I'm in hiding Gave me a new project to work on and I've just been heads down. Oh, yeah, trying to come up with a Proof of concept for him for all his demos. I Don't know Ralph does except make demos This feels like quorum doesn't it we can start I hate starting meeting late. It's just the worst for me So I don't know if anyone wanted to add anything else to the agenda here Otherwise, I'm happy to just Stroll on through and we can see how things are looking. Hey, Josh I just realized this is recorded. So everyone in the world got to hear about my migraine today. That's cool Um Really got paid attention to that So, yeah How about we start with the content updates first actually and because I think we may talk about the the cube con talk a little bit More than anything else um Catherine you already got us up to date on the contributor framework, which is god is still interviewing people Right, so that's just kind of moving along, but we're not stuck um How is the ladder looking I think josh you were gonna submit some edits. Yeah, I've been well Um, we wanted to make so many changes that we actually moved it over to hack md. Okay Um, hold on. I'm I'm linking that into the notes. Um, I've been actually going through that um and sort of overhauling a bunch of stuff um, but Anyone wait. Sorry. I've lost the tab where the notes are the It's linked and I have like 80 tabs open. Um So Here we go. There we go. Oh god. Okay. Um So anybody else is more than welcome is is eagerly desired to to also bash away at it. Yeah, um The um, you know because we're in a circumstance where Um, lots of projects have contributor ladders, but they're all highly particular to those projects. Um, as I've noticed from people trying to copy the kubernetes one and be saying, uh, well, that's completely inappropriate to your project because you don't have a steering committee, but okay the um and um You know karen took this first stab at making a generic version and I'm trying to expand it to add extra options um because identified seven potential levels in the contributor ladder Of which nobody will use all seven, but which Which like three or four out of the seven they use is going to vary by project. Yeah I always want like a playing card game like just giant oversized cards with pictures on them that are like Just pick what you want. I want a contributor role a reviewer A settlers of katan type game where you have to buy your contributor level by assembling tokens. Oh my goodness It's been years since I played that game That would be really entertaining. Oh man I do not have time to design another failed board game No, no one needs to do that. I was just I just like the idea of going to the buffet of contributor ladder And putting brownies and mashed potatoes and salad on my plate. That's all right And in order to make it all the way to approval, you have to have brownies mashed potatoes salad soup A mixed drink, right? You must have a shirt on your plate. It's right The um, yeah Like well, I don't like that. I like this Yeah, so, um, you know and you know sort of look through that, um the You know and and add your Your own stuff to it. One of the other things so like I like the bullet point thing That Karen did and I'm expanding on that format Mm-hmm. Um I'm a little concerned that it might be Too impersonal if you follow me What do you mean like there's not a lot of of a voice to it of somebody reining how yeah a ladder should be Yeah position or whatever. Yeah. Yeah I think I think it's perfectly fine. I mean Karen you can speak for it, but yeah, um, well, I mean I think as long as Because the idea is like, you know, like we would we provide like the description part at the beginning, right? And then like the bullet points, you know, there are a lot. It's also just like choose and pick what works for you, right? Um I guess Like I get that having a narrative feels more active and better, but also like is that the Um, like, you know considering we're making a template. Is that something we want to take on knowing that a lot of it Will change anyway That's kind of my take Yeah, I know that if I was Taking a contributor ladder template and using it for my own project I would probably rewrite nearly every single word in it And just and just take the ideas of I needed this level. It should have these responsibilities This is how you would accomplish it, but Maybe it's just me, but I would immediately put my own voice On it to kind of fit the tone of the project So I mean, I see what you're saying if you probably will get rewritten By everyone should we even should be like actively encouraged not to like for people to add their own voice I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong with just using the template. I would assume it's I just I guess I like writing and sounding like a goof. So I would you know, I would change it But this is why we're not basing any of it off of what I write because it's too It's too informal So, I don't know. Do we want to look at it or do we want to say People should go look at it later Feel free to contribute It's not done yet. So, yeah um There was one section that I kind of want to revisit just because I don't remember what we decided on last time But also like just to rehash some details. So um Oh, cool. Okay. Uh, so don't look at the like table of contents thing in the above section because it's totally out of Yeah, right now Oh, yeah, that works. Okay. Cool. Yeah. So one of the um, there are a few things that josh added in right like organization member We didn't necessarily have thought before um, but another section that we kind of um veered a little bit Away from what we were doing before is the sub project lead and that was partly due to how kubernetes is set up um, so I kind of want to just touch on this again, um because I think originally the section that we had here was, um Carolina and I talked about this. It was like, I think it was just project lead, right? Like the person who's like kind of like the liaison Um with cncf and like the like representative. So, um, I think we may have maybe renamed this section, but um, I just want to see if we want to still include that element or if this gets tucked under that or yeah Yeah, that doesn't seem like the description there doesn't seem like sub project lead to me. That's yeah, I think they might have just folksmen yeah the um Yeah, because like a sub project lead would be like, um, if I'm in cni, you know They have like leads for each one of the drivers um Which is a particular contributor role as opposed to I mean, what I was saying before is I really feel like anything that involves interacting with the cncf is a governance role If you follow me. Oh, yeah, okay, it needs to follow some kind of a governance process as opposed to You know a sort of strictly technical contributor role Yeah For smaller projects those end up being identical because you go to the governance and they say, okay Well, anybody at level approver or above is automatically part of the collective governance um but But it's still still seems like something that doesn't like handling cncf regulations feels like something that doesn't belong in the contributor ladder um Okay, so then maybe Like we create that connection like in the scenarios where they're the same person um in the description, right that like Well, okay, wait, so then based on this like are you saying that like the sub project lead would be the highest point in the ladder then or is there No, it shouldn't be actually Because we have we have a maintainer above it um which you know May or may not be the same thing as approver depending on how the project runs. Okay, so we just need to move the order Where yeah, okay. Well, some project leads going to be a little weird because it's going to be one of those ones where we add callouts and we say Hey, if you have sub projects in your project This should probably be a contributor role, but if you don't cut this section out I have two questions um How common is it outside of kubernetes because kubernetes is the unicorn? um to have sub projects um Well, you know, I just spent I've spent the last two weeks um in fact working on A governance template for projects composed of discrete sub projects So uh that was at the request of another project um that is applying to the cncf So it's a thing um and c and i and csi um both have sort of discrete sub project components network plumbing group does So I wouldn't say it's the most common structure um, but it's also one that recurs regularly okay is wait so Sub project leads aren't necessarily always maintainers though is what you're saying um, what I'm saying is that depending on how sophisticated your sub project setup is You might ask Each sub project to have a designated lead and this would generally happen because the sub projects actually have more than three maintainers Sure, I'm just wondering if we move it above if we move Under I guess a pooper, right assuming that like that's a direction um, because then we'll go to sub project We'll go from sub project lead to maintainer and then under maintainer We have like the sub categories of like community maintainer project maintainer release manager and docs man Yeah, and I think I think that's why sub project lead ended up where it is ignoring the text for sub project lead I think the reason why it ended up where it is is we were thinking about it as another special kind of maintainer Okay Which kind of is also right because if you're a sub project lead you are responsible for making sure that sub project delivers But why wouldn't it go above it then? I That would also work Um the um So Um, I mean kubernetes is weird because it's one of those where effectively there are only sub project leads There are no general maintainers of kubernetes. Have you follow me in terms of a formally defined contributor ladder role? um There are people who actually do have owner status in kk root But believe it or not, that's not formally defined It should be It should be um the um somebody needs to write criteria for it Be there at the beginning Honestly, most of those people no these days most of those people who are the owners are like release engineering people People who functionally need that level of permissions in order to like say produce releases Rather than people who yeah Have the sort of path the um And that particular aspect of kubernetes is unicornishness I don't necessarily see being repeated that much Because like i'm working with conveyor and they have some distinct sub projects But they also have an overall umbrella project and there is a concept of being a general maintainer as well Um because they also produce a packet stack as well as producing the individual tools I have one more question. Um, you had said that And maybe I misunderstood it sounded like you said that any role that aligns with a position in governance should not be in the ladder Am I saying that right? I'm saying specific governance permissions should not be in the ladder What do you mean by governance? um, so the um You to do so we had We had a separate role called project lead, which is what was there for that sub project lead before Um And that role called project lead the only difference between project lead and maintainer Was these extra deals with the cncf etc permissions So that's not a contributor role. It's a governance role. If you follow me There is no difference in Contributorship between those two roles just a difference in governance So I understand that they're in different documents and they kind of line up In you know under contributor versus governance, but if I'm thinking as myself as a person and I want to Gain additional responsibility and uh influence over a project It feels very natural to to move from Uh a user to a contributor to an approver to a maintainer to going I'd like to be a chair or something along that line um and I would I would have looked for that in the ladder with the idea that This is these are all the various things you can attain and we've articulated how to attain it So I think it helps at least mention like there's these other things you can do as well And this is what it looks like even if we just link to where it is in governance Yeah, and that might be the answer there is that you actually put it in there as a heading like you put you know for example chair and you know Must be elected according to the procedure link Yeah, I mean what I would want to avoid doing in our templates is actually having The text that potentially duplicates between different templates sure that are not alternatives to each other because I know what's going to happen is Projects are going to copy both templates And not reconcile them. Yeah um I'd be happy to help I would have time tomorrow to maybe add some more comments and maybe put in Something after some project lead that just links to even if they're just placeholders like Governance roles and just a little blurb about what What it looks like to move into some type of governing responsibility in the project Yeah, so say how do we end up with some project lead twice? Yeah, um, that would be good. And like I said the confusing thing about making this as a template is that we have this experience Right where everybody's contributor ladder is going to have three to five rungs But we hate but what those three to five rungs are is going to be different for each project And we have to provide examples Of the seven or eight different rungs that they potentially could have Agreed. Yeah I think this is looking good. It's definitely evolving. I'm excited about how this is coming together I'm sorry. I haven't been able to contribute as much Um, yeah, how are you feeling by the way with migraine you said I still have a headache Oof I I know those are terrible. I just yeah so I'll be done with the day after this meeting Yeah, oof Um, so there's nothing else about the ladder. I mean, I know we all want to work on it But is there anything else we wanted to discuss as a group or Can move on okay The contribute website I worked with eor eor and um I have two prs all set up and ready to roll one is to SIG contributor strategy And then the other is to I think I linked to the pr here The other is in the existing repo scenes you have contribute Um, and this is kind of you can see what the PR experience looks like So the main website is in our repo at the moment. That's how it's defined And then additional content comes from the scenes you have contribute repository And you'll still get netlify previews. So if you click on it, you'll still see Like what your change will look like in the full site So if you had changed something, you know under here maybe added a new project or something it would show up And then when it's merged it will trigger a netlify build on the main site On our SIG contributor strategy site. So this is all ready to roll. I just need reviews Um should be game one on this one pretty soon But if anyone has time to review this one, I'll link them in the the notes That'd be great because they kind of need to be merged at the same time And then we should make the cycle live It's just terrifying I mean exciting. Sorry not terrifying. Why why would it be terrifying? And then we can just have a site and we don't need to talk about it anymore. It'll be great Did anyone have any questions about that or No, it's wonderful. Ship it Cool Yeah, I can't wait to see it live. It's been there forever I know I was I was spending a lot of time trying to make sure that For example, you could edit GitHub pages directly through github, you know like markdown and not have to Have hugo installed and you know all sorts of stuff. I was trying to make it so that this would not Degrade the experience of contributing content to the website I want to make sure it was still as easy as just contributing to a markdown page in github. So It took a little bit to get it Where I wouldn't be apologizing Sorry, good things take time nothing. Yeah, like yeah takes work I think we're there. So that'll be good I I mentioned it in the toc call this morning So the One thing that's going to become a source of One thing that we need to straighten out and I need to actually email the toc about this is that We don't Currently we're down to one toc liaison And the way we set up approval for things going into the contributor site was that we have to have Both of our liaisons take a look at them So we need to actually what is a toc liaison So there's two members of the toc assigned to each sig okay and The vital thing that are to do for us is that They allow us to Approve things to go on the contributor site Without having to have the full toc vote on them Oh, okay Which would be a huge delay if if that was a requirement Yes But since the toc just changed membership annually Matt Klein is no longer on the toc Which means that we need to find a replacement for him As far as we have to like around or could anyone yeah pretty much now. I have to I have to post it to the toc Okay, and ask the I'm willing to bet that Catherine would be interested, but I need to actually book her about it Different Catherine Yeah Catherine with the I mean, I know you would be interested, but sadly you lack approval power Is that pulling us up at the moment from at the moment? No, okay at the moment. No The um The I just actually well here's a question Do you know how much stuff Matt Klein signed off on if anything? I've not I didn't even know toc liaison existed. So I'm not a good person to ask. Okay um, okay. Yeah, so We'll see ping me before We do final publication Of course. Yeah, um, and just to make sure that we don't actually need Approval that we didn't get yet Okay. Yeah, the plan for the website is it will will merge them just so that I don't have to keep merging changes But the site won't flip until you know Someone important says we can change the dns So Do you think that would be matt or matt's equivalent? Yeah Okay, well wait for dns Just to make the site live so that contribute that cncf that io You know actually goes to the new site is would that need to be gated by two toc approvals? Yeah, we need to tell I mean obviously it's the Linux foundation tech staff will actually do it But we need to tell them that we have the toc's approval Okay, um So Who is our other person who who's currently out? Sada Lee And um, and he's still there Okay, um, well maybe I'll show him the site now Except I don't think he's seen it Um unless okay, they were on the original issue and the toc issue list when I posted it Just so we can get People looking at it sooner rather than right at the end when we want to flip tns Yeah, actually I think when we select When we get the new toc person I think the fastest way to turn this around is actually going to be to set up a meeting with the two of them And walk through it and walk through it. Yeah. Yeah, okay Thanks, um So I will email out the toc and try to get our second person so we can get that moving as soon as possible Thanks, that's way helpful. Okay So the only other thing I had to talk about unless someone else has something is We wanted to do a talk at kubecon And we wanted to make it specifically about One of our Documents or advice like an area of contributor growth um And I thought we could chat about what we would like that to be Uh, what it should look like what kind of content I know both Paris and april one help with this and they're not here But I still would love to have everyone's opinion um And do we have a date for when we have to submit this? Assuming this is like the maintainer talks. Um, I think the deadline is sunday Did you say sunday? Yeah, I that's the one that's a deadline. I saw like Yeah, all right. Well every seven but that kind of time frame I'm going to get people's ideas and then just write a cfp and try to do this as quickly as possible I did not understand that it was so soon Whoops I'm happy to copy edit the proposal if you throw it in the slack when you're done with it. Thanks. Um Were there any particular topics that you think people would be most interested in I think Kind of see if we talked about this before and write it down Maybe it's on the main one the new contributor pipeline I think is what we were thinking about how to Encourage new contributors, um, like for example the onboarding framework that charles had suggested which is wildly successful Um issue labeling I think is another area of that and um, I think uh just in general how you interact with new contributors which could cover You know chatting with them encouraging them doing an actual review Um, do you know how long the talk is? Is it 25 minutes? Checking it is one 35 minute session 35 minutes including q&a Yeah Yes The platform this time though, right so I assume it'll be similar to before but I mean just based off of my terrible memories of how the last one went I would hate to um, alligate too much time for q&a Sure, especially since I think a lot of it may come after the talk is over via What if anyone knows more about the platform Are you gonna cover? I guess like the resources slash templates that are available So what can we point people to we can point them to The okay, we have the contributors guide Yeah, the contributing guide, right? Yeah um And specific to new contributors. Do we have Something else that we'd like to point people to the project templates is really more for maintainers unless for What the new contributor would interact with other than the guide? um I don't think the ladder is far enough along to reference safely Unless we're talking about it more in a abstract way But also like they wouldn't use it, right? Like they might they would go look for one in a project. Yeah This is the audience again And um, this is why I like the new contributors tutorial because it's it's a hundred percent focused on successfully bringing people into the pipeline and making them Basically successful contributors that it prints tees up that first pr I mean we will Either have a finished drafter an approved version of the contributor ladder by kubekan Okay, but then You know for a session focusing on contributor recruitment The only real advice is have a contributor ladder Well, you don't need to go into detail about what it's in it. They just need to have one that shows potential new contributors that they can advance so I will try to write something up and then get it for people to review probably What day is it today today's tuesday? I'll try to have it by The end of the day tomorrow so that we can all look at it and poke it and knit it today As that sounds just as a reminder in case you did like didn't realize that Kubekans like in may so like there's a good amount of time till then still Does it need to does it it doesn't get automatically accepted? like I don't think we get to change what the Agenda says, right? It is whatever we submit or I mean it used to be a few bugs, you know, but yeah Yeah, no, that's the usual thing is you can You can make small changes Okay, I think if we tried to completely change the contents of it that might trigger Um, some kind of a read review. Okay, and and no, they don't automatically get accepted. Okay. Um but that said I would say The chances of acceptance of any particular session is like 70 percent Yeah What I would normally do for a talk that I was submitting just for myself I I want to make sure I put in the same one effort for those Yeah, well among other things even if acceptance is a lot easier You still need the description to get people to show up at the session. Yeah, exactly. Yeah Um, I mean, I think this is enough to fill 30 minutes. Just fine Um, does anyone see any gaps with what we'd want to cover? Uh, maybe advice just for a new contributor I don't know. I think that's something that always comes up is how much advice should you give a new contributor That isn't specific to your project Does that make sense? A lot of people aren't new either to open source to get to cloud native That was kind of my question earlier like who's the audience for this because like I feel like when you're like talking about Like my initial take was that this was like people who have a project and they're trying to grow like the number of contributors they have, right? but then like Then like the thing you just said sounds like it would just be for someone who's a new contributor and not not actually um a lot of contributing guides and type of support you give to new contributors involves the stuff I just said And it's helpful to think about One is your project willing to do that two Do you duplicate that duplicate that type of information in your documentation? Do you offer to help with that? Um, if not, do you send people elsewhere? What do you do when the people who are interested in contributing to your project? Are going to need mentoring essentially um Then can I suggest that we write like This is for like You know, I guess like maintainers and contributors both So that like someone reading the offshock would be like, oh like I don't necessarily have to be in this bucket for this to apply to me I think the audience should be just maintainers. I was just saying that This is stuff that a maintainer will need to think about Okay, okay It's going it has come up with every single project I've been on whether you intended to mentor people new to open source or not They're going to come to your project and how do you Support them or not? We could talk about we don't have to talk about that But I do want the audience to be maintainers because I feel like that's That's who our stick is focused on I'm typing on the wrong screen quick great Oh, thanks for the form Karen. I'm sorry chat didn't show up for me. Oh, I guess that's the other thing. Um Is this I'm gonna I'll I'll reach out to april and paris and see if they want to co-present or if anyone else was interested in co-presenting um The talk Josh in case you wanted to do more talks Yeah, um I don't think I'm actually doing any other talks Yeah Yeah, so so I can definitely be in for this Okay I was I was kind of I want like a pool of people who would like to do this maybe and then we'll see who can make it happen Because to be honest doing it all by myself would would feel like a lot with everything that's going on right now I I don't want to sign up Yeah Okay Sorry, I'm weak I missed and that type in the wrong screen. Yeah By the way, at this point, we don't know whether or not we're gonna have to pre-record or whether we're gonna be allowed to do it live um Okay, the um information about the new kubkan platform is very scarce Do we know what the platform is? Um, I've been given a name. It's not anything I'm familiar with On top of which I kind of get the impression that there's some major technical issue with the platform That they're waiting to see if that issue gets resolved before they commit to it So um, so so effectively know effectively we don't actually know what it is the Because I mean I really feel like this session would be a better one to do live Because if we could do it live we could tailor it a little bit to who's there Yeah No But if not we know what it takes to do it pre-recorded Just this time we'll make sure they get the right recording This is oh gosh was that unfortunate, but I feel like this talk in general Would work well pre-recorded because I mean it helps if we know that no one's interested in a certain area But otherwise I do feel we could just split our time amongst these topics and We pretty much know what we'd want to advise So it's not quite as situational That's what I'm telling myself Anything to not repeat what happened at the last kubkan. Yes I've never been so I don't know dear in the headlights before I mean sadly the um Well the problem is you didn't even have the option right because I've been in the position Where I literally have the entire tech staff of the conference on the podium that I'm supposed to be presenting on Yeah And you know just um But under the circumstances I literally walked down into the center of the aisle in the conference room And just started doing a voice only presentation because at least you could still do that And that's less stressful. I've done talks about slides or any tech or working microphone And just gone whatever we're just going to talk and it worked fine, but This I felt like I was trying to talk at a At a wall People couldn't even hear us. They couldn't hear you. It was Was so many including including our tech support was one of the people who couldn't hear us. Yeah That was an actual It'll be better it won't be like that We're battle-hardened Yeah, it'll be somebody else's turn to have catastrophic melt meltdown Exactly rotating karma Okay Well, that's all I have So if no way has anything else we can we can be done for the day. Uh, I you know, I'm in Chicago, so I'm done for the day after this How is it out there? Are you guys in polar vortex territory or are you missed out on that? Oh, we got a foot and a half snow Um, which is fun. I have like great pictures of like Things in my yard being swallowed up and they're gone now. Um, but it's not too cold or anything. It's fine It's Chicago We're not Minneapolis. So yeah, we haven't gotten any real snow this year, which I'm fine with What city are you in? Portland Oh, I thought you got snow last week It didn't stick. Oh Sorry No, no, no, it's it's good. I'm I am happy to see pictures of snow in other places Oh, and not I like snow. Let's see. I live in I live in one of the sections of Portland that have what they Euphemistically call unimproved roads. Oh, yeah, so driving those in the snow is not pleasant I see snowy gravel. It's not fun. Yeah, no I don't know in Chicago. Everyone knows how to do a snow. So it's just it's just decorative, you know It's not a problem. All right. I don't need to keep people make you listen to my snow recognizes. We're good. Thanks everyone for coming. I appreciate it Later