 Okay, good afternoon everyone. It's really a privilege to introduce our author today. I'm Peter Bergen, I run the international security program here and we're about to get started. So Dr. Mohamed Fraser Rahim is the executive director of North America, Quilliam International and he'll also, in addition to talking about his new book, America's Other Muslim, Zumaam W. D. Mohamed, Islamic Performer and the Making of American Islam. He also probably explained a little bit about what Quilliam does because Quilliam is a very well known organization in the United Kingdom, maybe a little less well known here. He also teaches at the Citadel, I just found out, which is kind of an interesting extra and also teaches us at Yale. So we're delighted that you are here and that you will talk about your book for a little bit and then we'll open it up to a conversation. Great, so thank you Peter and I want to say congratulations for your book too as well. I mean just and I've been following you on CNN too as well and thanks for your commentary. It's an honor to be here and this is the first event that I'm having since the book came out on Friday. So New America actually over a year ago hosted myself in Yaya Fannusi where over a year ago, I should say, on a report we did on African American Recruitment to Violent Extremism and it was very timely that we had that event so it's very important. I see a lot of friends here too as well. I have to acknowledge my friend David Priest who I think is very important. Acknowledge him who is an excellent author and writer himself but also who taught me how to write the PDB, the Presidential Daily Brief and I have to acknowledge him because I was maybe a bit of an exuberant, slightly arrogant analyst at the time. He probably disagrees but I think I was and he taught me a lot and I appreciate that so I wanted to acknowledge his presence here as well as well as other friends. So what I wanted to do is dive in. I mean this body of work really continues from, I did my PhD at Howard University under the late Dr. Suleman Yang who is probably considered the Dean of Islamic Thought in America in terms of his contribution. I see Ithbert Miller too as well who I engage with on a regular occasions at Howard and I want to thank him as well. But Dr. Yang himself was able to really help shape a lot of the perspectives and I think a very nuanced fashion on the history and the evolution of African American Muslims in Islam in America and so I tee up and using my government language as well to frame the conversation of Dr. Yang's perspective has been instrumental toward the discourse of Islam in America as well. This book right here certainly overpriced as an academic body of work I would have put that out but I think this is also very important to highlight that the book itself captures two things. One it is an academic body of work but it also is very policy relevant. My career, my work has also been looking at the intersection between policy and scholarly work and particularly looking at Islam, violent extremism, deradicalization and rehabilitation in particular and so the book itself I think highlights and really talks about the evolution so the first chapter gets into this larger conversation of African American Muslims, African American Islam. And despite the current discourse of Islam being foreign, immigrant, new and outside of not being part of the American fabric we know to the contrary that American Muslims have been in this society since the beginning, since the arrival that individuals like Thomas Jefferson, our founding fathers, George Washington themselves own and slave African Muslims who were from here, I mean from West Africa and they brought with them a very pragmatic form of Islam and so that evolution is important. I also highlight and it's important to notate is that the the first play of Islam in America was conducted, was a play about Muhammad the Prophet by the very famous writer, thinker, Voltaire and Voltaire did a play and the first arrival of this play into America was titled Muhammad the Imposter and it was showcased at 1742 in Baltimore, Maryland October 1st and then another showing in October 15th which is very interesting that you know the the first play by Voltaire was the Fanatisme Muhammad the Prophet it was him being a fanatic and then once it came into the English it became Muhammad the Imposter. In the 18th century the one of the slurs at the time to call anyone particularly would be called a Muslim. So we've just that evolution in terms of Islam have been being in the United States for quite some time. We know certainly the legacy right here in in Washington DC of Yara Makhmut who arrives in 1752. I was involved in an effort where with the DC archaeological project where we were able to look and we were searching for his grave unfortunately we're not able to find it and something that's taking place in May this year is that of an opera the first opera continuing from the work of Voltaire if you well been in more positive light that will be showcased at in Charleston South Carolina at the Spoleto Festival titled Omar of Omar ibn Said and so this is the first play first opera that will be performed at the Spoleto Festival and i've been advising them on this. So I think you know the beginning of this chapter of this book this chapter one highlights this evolution of Islam in America having foundational roots the Islamic identity that was brought here by these enslaved Africans was much much more that of a pragmatism that of a spirituality that of a negotiation of Islam. I highlight in the book the role of Islamic mysticism oftentimes characterized loosely as Sufism or Tassawuf that that was certainly the pervasive Islam in the society many scholars would probably estimate and actually probably argued that you know the Islam coming from West Africa the Islamic origins and roots had with them a technical sophistication that many throughout the Arab and Islamic world would know meaning there's certain liturgical traditions certain texts that are read certain body of works and so as you can imagine the first wave of enslaved Africans when they come into the United States they're bringing those technical skills. I always highlight that in Professor Usman Khan at Harvard Harvard University highlights this as well is that the center of Islamic gravity wasn't just in the Arab Islamic world but also in West Africa and so this deep sense of learning and scholarship isn't Timbuktu is this dusty place but one of learning the very famous poet Chick Amidubamba and Becky the very popular Senegalese mystic says I no longer need Baghdad nor Fez upon seeing Joluf I submitted and I think that that's a very timely sort of capture of which will segue into the African-American experience coming into the new world of Baghdad or Fez certainly a place of high Islamic intellectual learning historically we know that Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties but that learning West African Muslims were able to to to engage in Islam on their own terms and so then we we move forward and just in capturing into the next chapters we look at Islamic West Africa Islamic revivalism and and I think that's important just for the sake of time when we talk about Islamic revivalism in West Africa that many of the West African Muslims and thinkers also were living in societies that were multi-religious multi-ethnic Alhaj Suleem Sarari very famous in the 15th century was encouraging and trying to find ways to respect the rights of Muslims or non-Muslims in Muslim majority nations so what I would characterize the early versions of interfaith dialogue in West African society so you can imagine that that was certainly important as these Islamic communities or individuals some of the very famous ones that we that are highlighted in the book Omar ibn Said Yaro Mahmood ibrahim Abdul Rahman the prince of slaves very well known story that PBS set a documentary on are just a few of those persons who are coming with those traditions as they've come to the new world to make a long story short but to capture this sort of succinct points succinct points that many scholars estimate that there was this gap right between African Islam all that liturgical tradition that I've highlighted that the the the body of knowledge that was passed down leaving the Arabian Peninsula from the seventh century onward and that continuity of knowledge and then this this this gap 40 to 60 years between African Islam and African-American Islam it's a really important sort of historical moment to recognize this this distinction between African Islam in that tradition and then African-American Islam what is African-American Islam oftentimes I think a lot of scholars have highlighted this proto Islamic to simplify I like using term like Islamic hybrid movements because I think hybridity shows a level of negotiation of identity negotiation of place negotiation of what's to what's to come and so these hybrid movements came in the form of what we certainly are knowing in the US context movements like the more science temple movements like the nation of Islam I think it's also important to highlight you know with the unfortunate attacks that we saw just last year of the Hanukkah attack and also in Jersey City of Black Hebrews you know individuals have asked the question who are the Black Hebrews right the same question can come up who are the Black Muslims right they are not a monolith the Black Hebrew communities like many other African-American communities were looking and have been searching for meaning and purpose so not all African-Americans are Christians certainly that has been you know in light of being on enslaved plantations or being on plantations in American South the forced conversion and then off as you can imagine the decision to then leave that religion that certainly was imposed on them by the slave masters of pick your location in the American South including in Maryland in Virginia and so I think this is important to highlight this sort of space where enslaved African Muslims have been struggling in or the evolution of I should say of these communities as well so that gap has taken place we have and I should say I'm sorry the Black Hebrew movements also were another expression of African-Americans looking for religious and spiritual identity and so you have a whole body of knowledge though the book doesn't get into this of Black Jewry if you will Black Judaism that followed some Orthodox strains and then others who were going through what I call a hybridity just like you had African American Islam right and so this is important because the nation of Islam was one expression but there were also Black Sunni movements that were having adjacent much smaller in number as well I you know looking at this issue and having worked in government spaces I remember several times trying to explain sort of nation of Islam and in sort of policy terms too as well I characterize more of a social a social sort of cultural movement that certainly had some elements of theological embedding nationalism and including into that and I think that's important to highlight right in terms of how the nation of Islam as a movement as a community has evolved and what has come next speed up time in simplifying very complex history in one particular book I would say that two events that are not that aren't highlighted as much but I think certainly changes the space of what we know Islam in America one we have 1975 where you have the legacy of the nation of Islam and those Black power movements that were developing the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s you had in the death of the nation of Islam leader and then you also had the son of Elijah Muhammad worsty Muhammad who took the mantle and became the leader of this ancestral community clearly we know this gone into different directions Lewis Farrakhan which I don't even engage with him in this particular book obviously I think that's a whole separate direction that this could have gone into in that policy report that we did kind of captures it a little bit but what I would say is 1975 when W.D. Muhammad takes the mantle becomes the leader of the indigenous foundational Muslim community which he takes into a whole another direction which I'll get into in one minute also 1964 is not highlighted enough what's 1964 it's the civil rights act we also have the heart sellers act right in 1965 which is the immigration and nationality act which brought massive waves of massive waves of immigrants from the broader Muslim world prior to that there's quota systems that were put in place so I don't think that that's captured enough and I think the book cap puts this you know in the context that the that the role of the 1964 civil rights act had a huge impact in allowing large waves of Muslims coming from the broader Muslim world into the United States that's not dismissing and highlighting the wealth and large tradition we know in day of born Michigan we know Syrian Arab communities that have been in the United States we know Albanian communities we go to Iowa we go up north into the northeast there were certainly concentrations but when we're talking about large amounts of immigrants coming from the Arab world highly technical skilled jobs coming into that I think the 1964 is not given us the credit enough for what it meant to war also bringing large waves of American Muslims into or Muslims into the US which then brought the ascendancy to the Muslim Student Association etc um chapter three I mean I think chapter three I have to just look down just to remember the chapters but chapter three and I think it's chapter four actually to me um chapter four really I think highlights the importance of and particularly that 1975 moment that I was mentioning WD Muhammad was was was excommunicated at least three times from his community ancestral community because he rejected his father's teaching of nationalism of division if you will um of of and and and radically challenged it and spent different times traveling abroad including in Syria and also being right in the United States and and challenging his father's theological perspectives you can imagine the internal conversation that had within the community itself one that was highly centralized highly controlled based in Chicago and him resisting with all the trappings financial and as well as status in deciding to move this community that now has given rise to over 300 plus mosques throughout the United States it is it is certainly if not the largest one of the largest Muslim communities and associations throughout the United States this community has evolved and it has is including right here Washington DC Masha Muhammad which is seen as one of the flagship mosques that are standing but I think with WD Muhammad and I captioned the book and I I go I'm a bit forward-leaning I call him the patron saint of American Islam because I think sainthood is this idea of and particularly oftentimes the Muslim communities debate this idea there's no saints in in Islam and you know and this is barring from Catholic traditions but I think sainthood is this idea of this person who brings honor respect a stature of dignity and I think in many respects his his ability to bring this massive waves of American Muslims who previously were radicalized in some shape or fashion and having very divisive perspectives some real and imagined some legitimate against the state and channeling this means to say you have to be productive members of the society dismantling their old ideology we've heard this think about overseas dismantling the theology dismantling and including and encouraging a healthy sense of patriotism a healthy sense of identity where the community has been able to have the first American judges in the United States come from this community the first American mayors come from this community the first American congressman come from this community too as well and Andre Carson being that sort of particular position of being a member of this community as well so I think that this is important to highlight that the legacy of what deputy Muhammad offers and then him boldly challenging what I would call the status quo of American Islam or what would to be what would be challenged to say hey you have to give your loyalty and you have to give your affiliation you have to give your allegiances to overseas entities of Islam and him taking a pretty bold position to say you know what we need to do things independently on our own terms and we can be both American and Muslim and so what you see right here and I corrected this with the publisher because they got slightly wrong on the back but this picture right here is a Moss Merriam which is the the ancestral mosque in in in Chicago where you know Lewis Farrakhan still has inherited to this but Iman worked in Muhammad picks up this flag an American flag which is like wow would you who would do this at this time and now we have you know communities who are now and said well you know we need to be both American and Muslim we know that you know certainly individuals like Muhammad Ali was able to KO the idea of being both American and Muslim and has been able to champion this cause so I think this is important to highlight the role of BD Muhammad and his ability to create independent thinking for American Muslims who could easily have gone decided to say you know what let's become African Muslims again let's let's come up with a an imagined view of the past of our African ancestry and let's start putting on clothing and outfits and ideas and describe and subscribe to a particular school of Islamic thought the vast majority of Muslims throughout the world would subscribe or usually would say that they subscribe to one of the four major schools of Sunni thought and certainly you know within the Shia traditions I'm having a number of Islamic thoughts and and schools of legal thoughts as well WD Muhammad says guess what this is certainly important this is helpful and he highlighted in the book but he says we also need to recognize the time-space reality of where we are in the United States and though you might not be comfortable as calling it a math habit school of thought which is don't say this we need to start considering American and from our European counterparts a Western school of Islamic thinking so this is pretty courageous and you know we're talking about 1975 1976 a form of Islamic revivalism Islamic renewal that builds off of the tradition of the past which I highlighted but also clearly mentioning and highlighting and stepping out on his own I mean you have to imagine at the time that the Islamic communities that were coming here were certainly weren't weren't weren't always comfortable with this position that WD Muhammad took and his particular position to do this on his own and I think that there was I think on the other side of this and I'll wrap up in a few minutes is that you also have WD Muhammad recognizing that the community also slowly it took time to transition out we're talking about you know at least various estimates but let's just say a million followers at the time and sympathizers to say you know let's let's get rid of you let's move away from just these teachings of the white man as the devil and various frames of how they saw the world and not everyone was able to make the transition and so that I think that's important to highlight is this struggle with even himself and you can see this in his body of work I've analyzed his work and and have a library at home of a lot of his thinking and his tapes and his literature and I think he wrestled with that I think at various times admonishing even his own community to say you know what you all I'm here for you I want to see you successful but there's a certain level of a baseline knowledge that also has to be engaged with to make sure that you are if you're going to be able to engage with your counterparts and throughout the Muslim world you have to be conversant as well on basic Arabic basic Islamic ideas and terminology as well so I think there was there was this struggle to as well to balance that out and you can see that within his writings also I think he also recognized quickly that the next generation younger generation were also part of the future and so there was various efforts to send overseas students young students at various ages um teenagers I would say onwards I think the range was between 13 and 20 early 20s where they were able to be recipients in study including in Damascus Syria and Malaysia there was a formal partnership with the late Grand Mufti of Syria Damascus is clearly no more but this engagement of students who are becoming conversant in Arabic language and they were able to engage I think one of the most important things is I think interviewing and talking with some of those students they would say that our job was to go to the Arab world to get the technical knowledge but not to become Arab or not to become something other than who they were last thing I'll say and just to close out particularly the chapter chapter five of brother on the brother I think I call it brother imam there's a various language terminology that was used internally in the community so this was a play on the the desire by the late Imam Mufti Muhammad who died in 2008 to call the community imam imams would call him brother imam was a sort of a an endearment respect to say I'm also equal to you but I'm not too I'm not bigger than you as well so level of respect and engagement I think that's quite interesting so I titled that brother imam so the lessons putting on my policy hat I I'm the executive director for William which is the oldest counter extremism think tank in the world we've were composed of former extremists and clearly I am not a former I worked in US intelligence working on counter-terrorism issues that and working on you know providing analysis for various various presidents you know and so I've always taken a very non-partisan approach working for various administrations but Quillian particularly as we've worked throughout the world and particularly comprised of formers themselves that is important in terms of being able to talk about what tools are effective to combatic extremism this book and particularly the formula what I highlight is it is this community offers at least a 44 year counter radicalization program now I framed it that way because I think what we're all throughout the world I'm I'm constantly being asked you know different programs what program is working is counter violent extremism a surveillance effort is counter violent extremism working with the establishment are Muslim communities a monolith in terms of their engagement of working with the state I mean this becomes loaded terminology I guess in many respects because I've worked in government I've seen it from all sides of the angles and and I see a few former government folks I mean being in government we feels very much like in a policy think tank too as well there's different perspectives you're wrestling through ideas there are individuals who are medical doctors others who are historians and the theologian theological background there are those who have a background in advertising so you're bringing those perspectives to try to give a nuanced perspective to policymakers who then can make an informed decision so I teed that up just to say that I understand these issues in a very real world since I have during time in government I've been to Guantanamo Bay it's sat down engaged with formers themselves I continue to do that and right now both the United States and throughout the world I know these issues very well and engaging in that space so what I highlight and I think the last chapter is this idea of that this community offers one particular perspective to consider as we think about within the United States and broader Western societies who are struggling through the idea of can Muslims be integrated into society one secondly with the rise of identity politics what role do Muslims have to play and is it all or nothing is it is it just law enforcement what might what someone might see as you're either aligned with government and government's all bad or it's or it's not engaging at all I mean this black and white perspective and I enjoy gray zones I think also in this these gems that we see within the deputy Muhammad community shows that community that had real grievances I mean coming from the United States as the broader african-american story of being african-american story being multi-religious very socioeconomic backgrounds community that had legitimate issues and concerns coming into the society in light of the middle passions and slave african experience there is this this this idea of of being able to get past some of these grievances and concerns and then channeling in a way to through constructive critique through social engagement and then saying we can be both American and Muslim that takes courage I think that's not an easy task particularly in what I would perceive as oftentimes in American Muslim community often seeing being the idea of encouraging a singular narrative a singular voice and I think the late Shahib Ahmed has a beautiful book called what is Islam and he talks about this idea of Islam is is is is there is no singular idea of the Muslim world there are many Muslim communities in that expression of Muslim communities certainly is one expressed in african-american Muslim community but that is also expressed with the rise of Latino Muslims who are the fastest growing convert communities it is white-american converts it is various ideological perspectives and I think with with with this book is that what W.D. Muhammad offered the lady my morphine Muhammad offered is this idea of establishing an indigenous Muslim community and one that has that is a moving forward and that is part of the fabric all throughout 50 states as well I'll stop there thank you very much Muhammad and that was a brilliant kind of encapsulation of the book so if you have a comment or a question you each just make make sure that you identify yourself and hit the speaker and we'll we'll I'm gonna ask a quick question to start with and then we'll go to you sir so just give us a sense of how you kind of operationalize quillium here in the united states I mean to be I know that some of this the work you do is by its nature private and has to be but like give give us a sense of what what it is that you do you yourself personally in the organization so the work that we do is threefold one we run our mouth on tv so we you know we show up on tv and that's certainly good for branding and that you know for example my phone's been blown up about the the ramifications of the attack in london right and they're so interested in what american perspectives are and and though we know that there's the rise of domestic terrorism is certainly but far right white supremacists you know we engage in that space too and so they're they're interested so I think we run our mouth we talk on tv we do policy analysis I mean this book certainly contributes to the discourse but we do analytical work and then lastly we do programs and interventions I think that that's a lot of what our work has been done since I opened up our offices in the U.S. so almost three years coming up in april is we work with government our U.S. government in particular where we've done work state department DHS department homeland security we've worked in USAID various government grants we've supported implemented efforts to counter extremism throughout the world now that could be in the effort of working with individuals who are formers themselves and establishing a network to make sure they how do you integrate them back in society how would the families how would the community embrace them you have to come up with structures and sit that in place we also have programs where we work one-on-one with individuals so we work with the real tough issue though a lot of people are not comfortable in doing it because it takes time and I would love to inoculate using a vaccine the hard work of sitting and talking to people and working with individuals both in the United States which we're doing quietly both and it's not just Islamists they're far right we now have black Hebrews we have black nationalists and I think that's important to highlight I think whatever you know people's perspective might be this is a full spectrum it has always been a full spectrum individuals and I and I think it's important to have robust criticism and perspective how those strategies are employed and engaged but our work has been really in the nitty-gritty effort on D radicals I should say the DDR as we say disengagement deradicalization and rehabilitation we're just a follow-up on that I mean do you think the government and I hope the government's obviously a lot of different entities but I mean is just US law enforcement more sympathetic to the idea that it shouldn't just be like you know somebody's radicalizing they we're going to put them away for 20 years for material support are they more willing to take risks about because obviously law enforcement generally doesn't want to take a risk but are they more willing today than they might have been let's say 10 years ago to kind of get you or people like you in this space to kind of whether it's on the far right or is in this or whatever do you see a bit greater willingness yes I think that there is I mean law enforcement is learning too as well and law enforcement isn't just FBI law enforcement is you know state and local right and people forget this how about the neighborhood you know Prince George's County or in Charleston South Carolina and down in you know Seminole County down in Florida they have concerns someone calls and says uh there's this kid who's acting wacky this kid is watching jihadist messages this kid is watching you know proud boys white supremacists this guy's on tele so it doesn't always get raised up to the level of just big brother FBI these are state and locals who need assistance in communities themselves Muslims are just you know are one particular community but there are many different communities that have concerns and issues so I think yes I think that they're and I'm giving the full range from my experience working this issue that the state local and at the federal level I think there's a much more interest they realize to solve this requires very nuanced approaches now has legislation matched up with that no there's not a clear domestic rehabilitation program in the United States I know Senator Ben Cardin in Maryland has been working aggressively on that and his staff has been excellent in this effort but and and and Mary McCord at Georgetown has done a phenomenal work with lawfare block to to really engage on this issue and in the season DOJ department justice hand in this so we need to match up political will getting the legislative branch and then also communities we joke and say but see something say something isn't just something that Amtrak is doing this is real efforts and you know I don't want the concerns that are being dressed can't just be when Muslim communities are under attack it has to be on a whole societal issue I've said this when I've been in Trinidad and Tobago and they've had the largest per capita number of foreign fighters who were traveling to the so-called Islamic state I've said this when I've been in Maldives we had the highest amount of foreign fighters throughout the world this is a bipartisan issue it should stay a bipartisan issue communities should engage yes they should be critical of the state they should engage that's what we have as part of it but I think we have to find a way of balance I think this is a slow process this isn't overnight you know the Brits have done you know the channel program has been an interesting experiment but we certainly have seen people gain the system yeah I mean Usman Khan I brought up but earlier briefly he's one example and I think there will be many others game it's just what I always say is this and you know it's easy to say we de-radicized Muhammad Khaled is one individual we've in the United States I personally worked with and his story is great and there's probably at least 10 15 more that I'm that we're working with who you know they're not in the process to be a Khaled right because guess what human beings take time they regress back they fall back into behavior because they're human beings and so if you're looking for a quick solution this is not the business that decided to work and to do and when I tell my students in cadets at the mill at the Citadel I tell them as well so listen you know are you in this for the long haul and I think that's important to highlight I also use softer language like we help people on their journey yes academicians and policymakers we can talk about de-radicalization and a certain that but softer language helps just to understand that human beings need just different levels of support just like gang and drug activities as well Ethelbert Miller writer congratulations on your book just two short questions one when you talk about 1975 did Akbar Muhammad had any sort of mentoring on WD Muhammad and the second question is the influence of Qaddafi and Libya on the African-American Muslim community good questions um Akbar Muhammad if we're talking about Akbar Muhammad his brother who taught at Sunni Binghamton was a scholar in his own right um when Elijah Muhammad the founder of the nation of Islam was uh was in his I was saying the heyday of the development nation of Islam you can imagine there's a conversation that young children have particularly with their father in questioning and Akbar was a recipient of studying at al-Azhar University in Cairo one of the center places of Islamic thought debatable if you anyone studied in in Fez Morocco in terms of being the oldest Islamic seminar but but but Akbar himself was was recipient of studying in that learning I mean to be frank with you I think there were there were certain tensions between Akbar and WD Muhammad I think Akbar was trained in classical traditional Islam this is not to say that WD Muhammad was but Akbar was trained also as an academician later on and then Akbar also went through what I would consider very structured Islamic um uh learning um Nahoo saw he was learning Nahoo soft belaga this is Islamic etymology grammar um he was learning from classical Islamic texts uh you know Kortobi um uh very technical knowledge and I think WD Muhammad um uh was did not have that same level of engagement right and so there were times where they were they bumped they bumped heads right I would not say that Akbar and WD Muhammad were engaging on a regular basis um so this is this is a good question I mean the there are correspondence between them I think and I think that's someone that's another dissertation book particularly with their their engagement with one one one another um uh Akbar's wife I think is Egyptian too as well and so he spent a lot of time also you know as a as a as a trained Islamic scholar and I think that WD Muhammad's position was those are important but I'm also he used the verse in the in the Quran that says the one who created me shall guide me so a lot of his references were very much that he developed a direct personal relationship with the Quran that he read scripture and texts he encouraged he had independent analytical thinking he encouraged um what I would say a um an interpretation of Islam that was not just static that time required a level of how do we read texts how is it having a time space reality the second question that you had was um Libya and um no direct relationship with um I would say this I think WD Muhammad had many individuals who reached out to him to provide and highlight this in the book um financial means and I think that he had this conversation that was outwardly to as well in this decision of should I take foreign money or not because particularly you'll see that you know Saudi Arabia certainly was one example but many of the Arab states who offered him means I think he realized there was various financial there was ties to if he received that money he might be beholden to them in a particular agenda so he's very adamant and careful not to take foreign money um because of what the stakes what that would mean and also for an emerging community that was coming out of the heels of black nationalism and Islamic hybrid movements and and wrestling to say hey well they find their identity there's a beautiful picture of a one of the uh a community member in the association um um who had a rendition of a picture of someone in the community had this picture of of of an african-american who's wearing um a shawar khamis uh Pakistani background you'll be familiar with that someone else is wearing a arab-e-mama turban someone else is wearing some shoes that look so like they got it from the salvation army and someone else is wearing a west african kaftan and then at the very top the person had a picture an image of of a question mark in the brain and saying you know who are they do they know themselves and I think this was part of the commentary coming from the the tradition of the late imam arthi Muhammad of you know questioning who who individuals are and trying to make sure these community members were both american and muslim and so I think that that's that's that's absolutely interesting and and and I you know just to add one final point to this I think what deputy Muhammad offered as well as this idea of live this um um just like you have lived christianity or lived judaism and I think that that's oftentimes not captured enough when we think of that's probably to work for religion religious studies professors that the role of lived islam and how you live religion um and how that's applied as well maybe goodbye quick question said that you have government experience so I'm interested to know um about surveillance programs of the government and the relation of that to islam and muslims and the american muslim experience because I think there is a struggle as you've placed uh that does not show signs of disappearing um really good question she her question I just repeated a lot of this whole question of of a surveillance and particularly within muslim communities I think that's a really important question you know so the I'll bring up something that thinks is important the we talked about the countering violent extremism programs and you know I think the terminology is a bit you know that's a whole separate conversation but what I will say to you because I think it could go the other direction but what I will say to you is um um mashin Muhammad uh the community the master right here in washington dc received some of the countering violent extremism grant funding that was awarded under the grant under the obama administration that under the trump administration it was carried out or was executed and in this particular time mashin Muhammad that comes from this community decided to take the grant money you can imagine various muslim communities organizations reached out and were privately trying to lobby and say why would you take this government funding this is all in the spirit of of surveillance the legacy of all you you can you can imagine that conversation I won't go into more details than that and so mashin Muhammad's response and and I think that's fair enough to say that the imam taler Sharif response was we're familiar with cointel pro we're familiar with government surveillance we get the issues that you're saying absolutely could you speak to that for a quick minute what is that program what was that program okay so the the department of homeland security had um had a cv grants that were awarded and so mashin Muhammad was a recipient out of many different organizations many muslim or there are a few muslim communities that receive the grant funding as well oh the cointel oh i'm sorry no no what year was that around the the civil rights i'm gonna come back to that and we'll get to what you're saying just so that we're all i think that's an important part absolutely so um the the the the community received the the grant funding and decided to take the money um because they recognized that they as african-american muslims have a legacy of both being african-american and muslim and so the legacy of cointel pro going back to the 60s was a program that certainly was part of the u.s government efforts that in hindsight 2020 i think federal government um would probably um question their activities and engagement on no question on that and that there's not enough time to even engage on that so i won't open that up but the community itself and particularly the the african-american muslim community that of the community association with the late iman warfee Muhammad recognized that there were real concerns but guess what law enforcement and particularly fbi has used entrapment in that as a tool for the last time i can check at least 30 40 years i don't think that's going to change anytime soon now i'm just glossing over this and moving through this quickly just for the sake of that is a law enforcement tool and technique you can engage congress you can engage your your elected officials to to find ways if that is a concern and that should be debated in a democratic process that's fine and there's means and mechanisms i think the community decided to say listen we recognize it we've been part of it and many of our community members live in urban environments where they understand entrapment but that does not take away and and so trying to debate say the government's not going to do that or not that should be done but the community is also going to take this money because this is taxpayer dollars so the community decided to take that countering violent extremism money in the spirit of saying we're also muslim and if we don't take this money which is grant funding then why shouldn't we take it because we have a compelling narrative and we were offering a solution so there are strategic communications plan that were put in place that were online that were challenging the narrative against extremism and so i just wanted to highlight that because this particular community has a very different position in narrative and we're talking about a network of over 300 plus muscle not just small has a different narrative than maybe other muslim community i've highlighted and i think it's important in the book too as well is that there is not a single muslim community so though this community has a perspective and position on it i think it's a it's a legitimate position that should be had there are other muslim communities in this space based off of ethnic uh cultural lines uh geopolitical views of the world that might that have taken a different posture that have said it is all or nothing and that government surveillance is what's taking place i don't think it's that simple and we can talk more details on that because i can see this is a conversation that can go on and on and on but what i will just highlight to you is i think that nuance that level of nuance specificity has to be had internally in the muslim community and that's something that wd Muhammad encouraged the intra muslim conversation is not being had just as much as we talk about interfaith the intra muslim community um is something that i think quite frankly is part of some of the challenges in the american muslim space that has um that has also uh you know caused a lot of fractured positions and and i'm not here to solve that this book uh is scoped in a particular direction i think to to latch on to that also within the government community space the government agency space the transparency around the surveillance is something that leadership will now take to with the absence of that having seen the extrem extremity point taken other questions coming in David priest from the law fair institute two things for you one to get back to the book a bit i'm hoping you can share a little bit about your original research and the balance between archival research and interviews on this topic and how it informed you and what you learned from that research uh secondly the book you talk about the relationship between west african islam and the american african american experience with islam and no historically there's been some problem with the receptivity especially in the arab islamic world of having influence from the african american islamic community it's been a mixed dialogue at best what about the west african islamic community what has been the if you will the feedback the other direction of receptivity to some of the experiences of african american communities within the islamic communities uh in the united states influencing back to west african experience excellent questions um so my phd is in history so i'm a historian by training so historiography was really the framing of it i mean i could have to be frankly i could have gone on and then a mixed method approach but largely it was historical research archival research in my approach and i did that um for the sake of time and wanting to get the book out and the ideas i think that that was that was important you know when i am older and you know i can i can sit down i'll write that that that other book that's 400 pages but for now and i wanted to i wanted i wanted the balance between the two to be honest with you the second question on you know this is interesting um i really like your point on you know malcom has so we have all these personalities throughout the world that everyone knows like malcomx i mean the the most um the malcomx's autobiography was first translated in turkish right um you have all these iconic african-american figures in hamed ali malcomx um who even the role of hip hop in islam i mean such a fusion offshoots of the nation of islam including the five percenters which islamic hybrid movements and you know some elements of islam but some elements of sort of street culture and subculture as well that all has had an appropriation i mean many not just african-american but urban communities are familiar with african-american muslim expression um so i think this is interesting that you know someone like a malcomx is highlighted as this iconic figure right um throughout the world but and i was talking to a friend of mine about this the other day he was like oh you know i disagree slightly on this but the but the position i think is malcom also when he made hit i think he's highlighted in many nationalist circles black national just nationalist circles as a whole if you bear with me on that he is champion as this sort of resistance is this the challenging the state absolutely but malcom also was not able to get buried in a mosque we forget this idea malcom had to give he was he perceived this final rights in a church so this question comes up where is his where is his muslim muslim community right who of arab this muslim idealism right why aren't they coming together in fact he has to go to a church to get his final uh basically to host to host him his final body and then a individual who was trained from overseas and african-american gave him his final funeral rights so it's very interesting these ideas these these multiple identities that are playing out malcom as the the revolutionary malcom acts as the the the social justice champion malcom as post going to mecca medina and sort of this open united nations type figure but also he's not able to even get his final burial rights by his muslim brothers who at the time for quite frankly they're a mosque of other foreign immigrant persuasions that could have hosted him so i'll just leave that there and i'm leaving it open ended and what that means of the west african reversal is i think quite interesting i grew up in charleston south keolina and my first arabic teachers were my parents but also um i studied with senegalese shakes and i studied in west africa and so this is interesting is i think you have also this interesting connection of real and or perceived african-american muslims who have wanted to connect back to their roots i mean thanks to ancestry dot com and 23 and me you know people are able to chase their roots and see some level of identity some with muslim heritage some not but prior to that great technological innovation with these tools um you know i think a lot of the west african connection has been in the form of heavily engagement heavy engagement of west african sufi orders um new york city and you know large metropolitan areas have been hugely influential in terms of their ability and connection um and i think that they're there you see i mean right if you go to senegal as being sort of one example having studied there dakar has african-american communities and have had a regular relationship sending african-american students from america and studying in medina kaulak studying in chess various cities in senegal west africa so i think there's that reversal there are you know various personalities uh imam for the drama is one chick haroon fey is another there are many various west african islamic thinkers and religious leaders who have had some influence but i i the the question is um is that is there a regular engagement i think it depends on the community depends on the individual i wouldn't say this formal alliance is but i think it's more informal um and you know from my own experience too as well having studied in tradition of islamic institutions beyond you know in uh um western ones too is why i think that's what i would highlight hi uh steve lupson uh could you give any examples of how uh wd muhammad has used ish tahad for an american context and also are there uh like even in a localized area are there examples of how like the african-american islamic community has influenced immigrant communities in the united states sure and i think we need an explanation ish tahad so just again uh independent thinking uh independent analytical reasoning um ish tahad we know that to deduce islamic thought in about 30 seconds or five seconds which is hard and complicated uh i think a lot of the shia traditions in islam i have encouraged the gates of uh of independent thinking um that's not taking away the quran and sunnah but it's saying using your rational thought your mind that you can negotiate a bit with time and space um i'm giving generalizations so bear with me on that and i would explain more in person point to point but i think the sunni traditions have had a you know maybe a different approach as a whole compared to the shia religious community uh brothers and sisters um so just want to tee up that and frame that conversation i think that wd muhammad's perspective is i mean deciding to pick up the american flag and seeing this idea of um an arabic headbook what did he mean he meant the love of country is part of faith the idea to to to champion both being in the state being in the us and being part of the fabric is part of that independent thinking um you know there's a wonderful book called minority thick by the the former grand mufti of jerusalem i happened to be in israel at the time and um he we were talking he interviewed various islamic judges qadi's throughout the world and one of the things he said is you know i'm talking to this one you know one particular very well known i won't say the name of islamic uh jurist um and he said that you know technically if you're in the west you could be in a perpetual state of um minority fixed status meaning you can shorten all your prayer now what wd muhammad is highlight and i only bring that context up to just say that what w muhammad highlighted say guess what there is no other place to go to this is the homeland that the homeland in fact is is is america and we must find a way to root ourself in this society in these conditions um and he brings up various instances to say you know looking in various accounts of um the desire to look for assistance throughout the islamic world and when they needed them the most they weren't able to get that and so i think there was in this is probably in the 60s in reconciling through that and i think really 75 is and this is my analytical position on it is that wd muhammad is was was really not only coming into position of power but also it was it was it was uh sealing his maybe his positions that should i step out should i not should i should i be this american muslim should i push for this american independence should uh should i encourage them to join the armed forces i mean imam talib sharif is a former uh you know member of the air force and a former nsa arabic linguist in the mosque of one of the oldest mosques in in washington dc that's that's taking some courage and some positions that um that i think other communities might be a bit reticent maybe a bit hesitant and they have been on that and i think that there's there's some cues to be taken from that right and every community might not take it in that posture the african-american muslim expression is one of i think radically resisting radically providing a renewal and then also offering independence and i think that that right there is part of that i think that that is shatihad and then the community itself okay thank you um mahmad thanks for highlighting this picture and sort of in line with your previous comment um i'm wondering if you could give a sense of how do you think uh imam muhammad's message since he died in 2008 uh you know this picture is from 1997 i guess it was controversial so i'm i'm sorry what i said 77 i'm sorry 77 uh in 2008 he died at an interesting time right where rightman barack obama was was was was elected um how do you think uh imam muhammad's sort of stands on america even symbolized by this picture um is received or is being received today you know in light of you know i'll just throw out things like callan camprenic and a lot of the controversy intentions that we have about identity today i mean i think i think imam muhammad took a position it wasn't a it wasn't an easy position he took a position at the time and you can imagine other uh black muslims at the time or african-american muslim this terminology gets played back and forth but let's just use african-american muslims we're we're criticizing his position of picking up the american flag why because it's like why would you do this in all the history of america and what it has been and and as i highlight i think that you know he he recognized that and was very explicit to say guess what i understand that fair critique but channel your energy and frustration within the legal process these as well and do it in a way where it can be where it can be constructive take it to the ballot take it to not the bullet anymore right the shift if you will from the historical nation of islam take it to the ballot and be involved in in active civic participation um you know yeah i think that you know with president obama coming into uh to power it's very interesting that in also wd muhammad being in chicago too as well and i think there was some passing engagement with each other too as well so at least they knew one another um one he was then senator um i think you know for me um it's interesting of where things will go and i think maybe that's what i'm always looking for future analysis uh david uh future analytical thinking yeah it's as well like where does this go next i think on one sense there has been a slow erasure of black islam or african-american islam and i think publicly speaking i mean i think on the networks who's being called on you know they're not african-american muslims in terms of commentators and issues on these issues just i think it's others from different ancestral background which is nothing wrong per se with that but i think that just looking at the history is this constant narrative of african-american muslims having to constantly reclaim and say hey we're here acknowledge our presence um i think also too as well the community and i always like to look at you know areas of challenges too as well the community also is getting older too as well i think the community is is is at a as a crossing point of individuals who made that transition and then the next generation who are millennials and you know that generation after millennials which i can't remember and and and i say that just because those generations that the the convert culture revert culture however you want to frame it is no longer the the same that we remember hearing about of the 50s 60s and 70s um as i mentioned the latino community is the fastest growing muslim community in the u.s the uh the uh socioeconomic dynamics are changing in terms of people who are converting to this um also the fact of people are not people are leaving religion too as well i think that's important highlight in american muslims are no exception african-american muslims are no exception too as well what plate what interest what how does that play out um what happens to these mos throughout the united states who are who have that legacy community but who are um maybe struggling to stay afloat how do they keep these institutions a lot you know i always like to look at you know where that will go i think this these are real questions um that i didn't quite highlight i didn't highlight that part in the book but i think those are things that the community will have to address and will have to articulate in some shape or fashion i'll lastly just say that the current discourse when we think about african-american islam now muslims it is largely in the form of uh certainly davish of pal but i think when you go to urban communities throughout the u.s you go to philadelphia for example philadelphia east orange new jersey this is bastions of salafi islam salafi islam isn't isn't is an extremist islam salafi islam is just conservative islam so you go there and the culture the the subculture is very much vibrant throughout the united states african-american muslims are converting to more i think as a whole a more orthodoxy that is not in line with the legacy of the imam worth the moment where that goes is a question um this kind of sound like maybe upon somewhat but i've seen you on france on tv in france as well as in the islands and you would i think you are one of you just mentioned uh that oftentimes african-americans are not called on cnn and other channels uh here in the united states for commentary as issues unfold gentlemen extremism what have you has any of the channels like cnn or msnbc any of them approach you yeah i mean i think i think i periodically appear on these various shows for sure i was um um i get called regularly on these various outlets so i absolutely engage with them um and i think that you know particularly with the work with the balance of both quillian and then certainly the as it relates to the counter extremism work um that expertise is called on and others too as well i think that's important brother mohammed it's a pleasure to see you um i wonder if you might speak uh building on a previous question i suppose to how wd mohammed understood the role of race and or anti-racism in the formation and development of an islam that was an that was indigenous to the united states um and also how that can you just introduce yourself sorry yes i'm sorry my name is matt burkhold i'm a the executive director of visionary organizing lab um so this role of racism and or anti-racism in the formation or articulation of a islam indigenous to the united states and i wonder um if you might speak to the ways in which that with the ways in which that contrasted with the islam of this father um that's an excellent question you know the uh the the terminology that was used right that both visual and the cultural aesthetic um the community went through various evolutions of names um the reference of below the psychonic figure in islamic history was a name given to the community right there we are belalians who's below below is this african figure who's a companion of the muhammad the prophet who went through very difficult times he was tortured he was beaten etc and so wd muhammad using below story as a means to say this is the story of you in the american south and chattel slavery as a form to connect their condition and the experience of below bin rabah who was a close companion muhammad the prophet and using this hey you are belalians encouraging his students when they did travel to syria visiting the tomb in shrine of or of where below was buried at least from many accounts being in syria so i think that this this this idea of trying to connect the african history and then the journey into the new world or as uh is he would have he used in very settings in the wildernesses of north america this is part of the language that was captured as to conjure up a spirit of african identity but also being in the in the us context lastly i'll just say too as well his use of the terminology new africa um also was part of that language trying to mobilize the community say we are no longer in africa and though we recognize our experience being in africa we are new people in the new world and therefore we have to establish a new africa a new way of being which requires us to adapt to the local context and so throughout the united states i think there were various communities that were exploring with idea and even now and i think uh with new africa communities there's a community down in mississippi the washington post that are really interesting right up about three years ago called new madina building off of that new africa concept and ideas too as well so i think you know wd mohammed was was trying to find a way to how do we balance between this african cultural identity for people who were stripped and looking for meaning and purpose and then also a way forward recognizing the past is already been closed but charting them toward the a new a new future how much analysis any other comments or questions you know as someone that is learning more about history and experiences of communities um how do you find the importance of american and civil war and slavery to our understanding of current events i'll give the short answer because i see we're pressed for time yeah that's a big question but what i and in that where do we begin yeah i mean so many of us are lost in that shot absolutely i you know i think uh uh connected to the to the book you know one of the things uh wd mohammed encouraged his students um was three folds one he said um study the rise and fall of islamic civilization what went right what went wrong secondly study um us and african american history and lastly study your own story and i think that that's quite interesting for the community as they were trying to find new made new means to to being this community in the united states and also trying to be very constructive of what went right and what went wrong um and i think that that's that's i think i would use that just as a means to just um you know as we all try to find where to look at these issues that might be something to consider at least from connecting it to the book well uh right let's give a round of applause to mohammed congratulations on the book