 Welcome to the Advocate. Your Sunday reminder that important conversations are among the necessary tools for a saner society. I will be talking about the state of the nation, the new Naira, chaos and uncertainty. Maike Onoguchi will be talking about Nigeria policies, the implementation and impact. Olu Dolakbo Oje Labi will be talking about psychological effects of poorly designed buildings. Why Elijah Oluwakayodi Ipusung will be talking about elections 2023. So what? We will be back after this break. The state of the nation, new Naira, chaos and uncertainty. February 6th was a devastating day indeed for Turkey and Syria as a 7.5 magnitude earthquake hit. A death toll of over 15,000 people have been recorded so far and still counting. These regions have been plagued with natural disasters and civil unrest. And so today we will commemorate in solidarity with the residents of Syria and Turkey. May the soul of the victims of the Turkey-Syria earthquake rest in peace. Amen. Nigeria today is experiencing the monstrosity it nurtured. Rocket inflations on stable markets, riots, corruption and the litany of irregularities characterizes the nation today. The soon coming election outcomes will determine the course of the nation and at this point, tactical destructions from authorities are barbaric and should be checkmated. On Monday, the federal high court puts restraint on the central bank of Nigeria from extending the Naira swap. Our governing authorities seem indifferent to the plight of the masses despite the obvious hardship and scarcity caused by these policies. This is a point to choose a leader with empathy over personal sentiment. We can only be great again if we push beyond this veil of corruption and self-centeredness. Collective values over self-gratification should be the hallmark of a nation that wishes to move forward and Nigerians have to imbibe that as a culture. Milton Friedman and American economists once said that the government's solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. Now, can this be applied to the ongoing carers following the CBN's Naira and cashless policy which is intended to address our socio-economic issues like carbon-money laundry, insecurity, vote-buying, etc. But for some reasons causing hardship and chaos in the society. My fellow advocates, let us examine the whole processes following the chaos and the new Naira redesign. What are the benefits of cashless policy? Before you came here, we were talking about cashless policies and demeriting the problems of insecurity, vote-buying, etc. So what are your thoughts? Let me start with you, Mr Karote. Benefits are enormous. You cannot overemphasize the benefit of a cashless policy. It is the way to go. First of all, it makes you accountable. I'll give you an example. I paid for some things two days ago and I had to send the money. Then the following day was something for the family. I went to the same area, same supermarket and got another set of things and I paid. Then I looked at the figures I spent. I was like, I spent it too much. They don't buy anything again in this house. So you track your personal life. That's a personal benefit to it. It makes the environmental community safer because there's no cash around for people to steal. So your money has just been wired and then it gives you guarantee that you can actually know somebody else's page. For example, someone tells you, I give you money, remember, count it. You keep going back and forth and out of... Don't let me tell you the truth, tell you the lie, just let it go. But this one is as simple as... Let me check my account balance. Log in to your account. Log in to my account and see. Don't see them. You have not paid. So if you are telling me you have issues, go to your bank. You have not paid. So all those things, there are so many benefits for it. And in addition to that, that is on the micro level. On the micro level, there's much more money in the banks to be traded with. So there are enormous benefits. So Mr. Dholakbo, your thoughts? Well, I know that spending from your phone results in you spending more. You are on business. Is that your business? It's even based on research. If you have 20,000 in cash and you have 20,000, you are spending via a transfer, it's easier for you to just make that transfer as against counting out the 20,000. So a lot of people's discipline is going to be tested. But apart from that, we have the perspective of the end users, civilians. But what about the banks? It makes life easier for them because the usual ratio of cash to how much money you can loan out, that is being disrupted. It's now all digital. So they can just create money like that. Now that's obviously going to have its own repercussions down the line. It's good to balance both sides. Then look at, we say it's going to expand the tax bracket because you can't hide the money you are spending anymore. But what happens when the government is after someone and they can easily cut off your access to all the money you have. I had a feeling that what we are experiencing now is how that would be like when you have money but you can't have access to it. So those are the perspectives. I just feel like the big man because when your government and they block your access to bank or cut off your access, it's over. So Mr. Guchi. Okay, I think if you look at it, cashless policy is something that it's not new. It's just about implementation has been, I think. Close to 10 years, it's not more than. Yeah, I mean, try something like that. The issue is, we have like 10 years to plan for cashless policy or drive home what it means to have an economy that is governed by cashless policy. I think within the last 10 years, I expected that CBN would have done better than what we currently experience. Because if you look at the percentage of the bank against the bank, you will still find out that within our context, the embankment is still higher, maybe 58% to 60%. I think over time, given the time we have, I think close to 10 years, if not 10 years, they have not done enough to pass that message or plan enough for the implementation to go gradually and gradually. Because if every year the unbanked is not getting into, getting banked, you find out that the implementation will definitely have its toll on the masses. And I think that's what we are experiencing now. Whether they are political undertones to why it is being implemented or enforced at this point. It's totally different conversation. But the point is, if we have 5 years, if we have 10 years to implement this year by year, what are CBN done and how come the enforcement is coming at a time where there is election and the force at which they want to achieve it knowing that the percentage of people that are unbanked are quite higher than the people that are unbanked. You have to look at also illiteracy level. Okay, so let's talk about Supreme Court. You know some governors went in Kogi, Kaduna and which other state again, Zamfara. They actually sued the CBN, right? They said they should block the they should halt the February 10 deadline. But then some other political parties, 14 political parties also counter sued and insisted on the deadline. You guys want to buy, they are alleging that they want, they are interested in good buying because of cash and all this. Mr. Kaduna, I want to go back to you. What's your thought on this? Because Nigerians now, as of today, we don't know the clear standard of the nation because I got a call from my dad just before this year like when is the deadline? Is the deadline going to hold? Yesterday I was at the bank and he said February 10 is the deadline even though the court says otherwise. But we are here to hear a clear instruction from the CBN. So what's your thought on this? I mean, the anger from which you are coming is just a clear case of lawlessness that is in our nation. And I say that without your respect but the truth is there is no nation in the world where the Supreme Court will give a verdict on an issue and you are telling me you are not sure what to do. I can't imagine it. The Supreme Court has spoken and you are still saying you don't know. So it just shows that in a way we said the government disobeys laws. We too don't really regard the laws. It's just back and forth because by now we should be telling governments whether we like the verdict or not that listen, the Supreme Court has spoken. We have to go ahead with it but here we are saying no don't obey the Supreme Court and tomorrow when it doesn't obey the Supreme Court we go back and say you are disobeying the Supreme Court. Okay, so our final talk on this. Chaotic situation. People are destroying properties of bank. POS agents are hiking price of cost of withdrawing depositing funds taking advantage of the scarcity of funds. And then the one that happened last week in the University of Binyue soldiers and students are trying to fight because they want to gain access to the ATM to withdraw cash. This does not speak well of the country. So I want to hear your thoughts on this Mr. Michael and Mr... Okay, so the truth is when there is a system that gives an impression that lawlessness doesn't have consequence there's tendencies you see this repeatedly over and over again. There is nothing you can do about that. Now, until we get to a point where policies are being considered from a point of research not just a point of we want to implement something. Have you researched what is the total number of people that goes to the bank every day? What is the average number of withdrawers through ATM or POS daily? That will give them a proper perspective of the planning. Now, looking at the kind of POS this is causing I would have expected that we would have learnt from issues of NIM, BVN, the kind of you know what is it called in rush at the time it is you know I would have expected that you would have made preparation in advance for things like this but they never did. So when you say even POS what is it called agent increasing what they charge against what they normally charge you find out that look they don't just charge I've privy to certain information so I can say this categorically some of them buy this money I know people that buy it 100,000 or 10,000 where do they buy it from? business people business people it's person that will only normally will bring cash to you to deposit after sales in the evening now selling the money now selling the money because he knows that you need the money so if somebody buys 10,000 or 100,000 or 10,000 how do you expect him to charge you 100,000 and then you normally charge it's just a balanced situation I like who he started lawlessness okay well I think I don't blame the people a lot of times we ignore the the fact that people are humans and they have emotions you know imagine a parent that has money in the bank and the children are at home crying for food I mean some emotions are obviously going to arise in that person so what are the channels how is it going to express that emotion it's going to look at who he thinks is the source of his problem he doesn't care about the central bank he doesn't care about directives all he can see is this ATM is not giving me money so let me express my anger I expect that the government would have more understanding and sympathy for the people and make plans to accommodate that I don't blame them in any way well while you are right you don't blame the people because they were pushed to the wall while you might not blame them but there is a reality that we must face and the reality is that this same thing that happened to us in Nigeria and we are reacting this way if it were to happen in some other countries they would react the same way exactly how do you know do we not no no no so you have the concept it happens in another country it might be different no hold on I am coming to that and the reason I said that let me just give a very pedestrian example you have a father and I like the example you gave a father that has money is not taking care of the kids we see that a lot in our society but you see they are different families there are some parents that don't take care of the kids the kids break down they send them to good schools or whatever but they become touts and band out and band it everywhere some just break out of the house and go and hustle and make become shoemakers and do whatever they make it it's the same scenario but different reactions so that just tells us how the society is how we react it's not to blame us not to blame us but it tells us this is who we are that this is how we think because I can bet in some societies some guys will have risen up in the society and say you know what and I am not talking pedestrian I am not talking the average person like us here I am talking the high and mighty will have risen up to take on the government will have done something but our society our reaction our understanding expressions are different this is just who we are now it's even more complicated because I am even surprised that people feel that this whole policy implementation at this point is about in particular because of that impression even the opposition doesn't even they don't care about how it impacts let's get this done and all of that thank you gentlemen for your views the truth is we Nigerians will have the opportunity to walk on our safe become better and also we appeal to the government policies should not kill us should not stress us should make life better and let's keep fighting for a greater nation as we prepare for our 2023 elections Manke Luguchi is next after the break