 Unpack the EMC Strategic Investors Forum from this week. I was down there personally in New York City. The last one of these they did was two years ago in New York. The one prior to that was in Boston. I might have missed one in there, but generally they do these every couple of years and what they do is they gather all the Wall Street financial analysts from the buy side and the sell side and they bring in all the heads of the Federation. So Joe Tucci gave a presentation and then turned it over to Paul Moritz and then Pat Gelsinger and then David Goulden and then new CFO Zane took us through a lot of the details and then they did a Q&A session with all the execs. It was very informative, always is, but I have to say it was pretty high level. So I wanted to just sort of run through my notes, Stu, maybe have you sort of interject some of your thoughts. Joe Tucci started things off, again, very high level discussion, a lot of strategy discussion, talking about sort of the waves in the industry, had a new wave slide, which was good, changed that up a little bit, but a lot of talk about the Federation, of course, because there's a move afoot, of course, to make, you know, you force EMC, Elliott Management, trying to force EMC to spin out VMware and, you know, relinquish its majority ownership, vast majority ownership. I've said all along that ain't going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen with Tucci's in charge. And after Tucci's in charge, it ain't going to happen. Yeah, so Dave, you know, I've talked to so many companies and all of them at the end of last year said there's no way that VMware stays part of the Federation. 2015, there's got to be a change, got to be a change. It sounds definitive from what you're saying that, you know, we will not see a change this year. Again, you know, EMC can say, Tucci can say, well, we'll keep an open mind. And I'm sure they've talked to Elliott Management. I think they have an open mind in the sense that EMC's looked at this and they've made the decision, you know, and it's not going to change. The only way it would change is if EMC is fumbling so badly and the market sort of forces them to do that. But EMC's not fumbling. EMC is growing faster than, you know, it's larger peers, it's throwing off cash, you know, its stock price isn't going up as fast as people want and it's investing. And so what does it do? It buys back shares like everybody else and it sort of maintains that balance. And so I think EMC has done a very good job of that. I tweeted out the other day, I thought EMC did a good job of laying out why it is not hosed. So many people say to me, EMC is screwed. And so I like to invoke one of my business heroes, Scott McNeely, hurt me with that problem. I wish I were that screwed. And so EMC continues to sort of defy the naysayers. They can't innovate, they can't do this, they haven't had an innovative product since the VMAX. All that's nonsense. It doesn't matter to me. Maybe it's true. Okay. You can maybe criticize, you know, whatever. They're incremental R&D, but they're really good at buying companies. They're really good at innovating on business models. Look at VMware. Obviously, look at Pivotal. And I want to talk about that a little bit more. So Tucci and every speaker really emphasized the value of the Federation. That was a big theme. It was obviously prepared. And after every speaker, they had a customer talking about the value of the Federation. So it was very orchestrated. But I think it's legitimate. I think there is value there to the EMC approach. Could they get a short-term stock pump from spinning it out? Yeah, probably. But long-term, I'm not sure it would serve shareholders. Yeah. So, I mean, Dave, one of the biggest things I look at EMC is they've gotten so big and they've got good market share in a lot of the places they play. How do they grow? They've done some really good M&A. I mean, you think just the Federation itself. I mean, VCE, one of the best acquisitions we've seen of the decade of the century. And if I look at the growth areas that you talked to me about, Extreme I.O. and AirWatch and NYSEERA with the NSX, some pretty big acquisitions that they're pushing forward. I mean, EMC and the whole Federation has money. Do we expect to see a lot more M&A this year? So I would say absolutely. So I want to address those. So that was another big topic. So I think they had two, maybe three. I guess they had three sort of major objectives here. One was to really sort of lay out the strategy overall. I think the second was to emphasize the Federation and why they're not spinning it off. And there was some discussion with the analysts about that. And the third was they're spending a lot of money on six major initiatives and they're losing money in those initiatives. As you'd mentioned, it's NSX and AirWatch. It's Extreme I.O. It's DSSD where they said they're not going to have products out until the end of the year. And we know that's going to be a 1.0 version. It's going to take some time. Scale I.O. A pivotal is, by all accounts, losing money, even though it did $70 million last quarter. And Zane talked about we are not going to make money in 2015. We're going to break even in 2016 and make money in 2017. You mean profitable. Yeah, profitable. Yeah. Because I mean, VCE makes a lot of money. I mean, we were talking this week, they've got almost 2 billion. And by the way, I think if you look at Extreme I.O., I think some of that is in flux. I mean, I think Extreme I.O., if it doesn't make money now, I mean, they did a half a billion dollars in bookings this past year. They did $300 million in bookings in Q4. They're very close to profitability in my estimation. So I would expect that some of the pieces there are going to, so I think there might be some sandbagging in there for the street. Sounds like pretty fast growth to a billion dollars for Extreme I.O., though. And Pivotal. Yeah. So Pivotal, when Pivotal came out, they said we will be, Marit said we will be a billion dollars. This was in 2013. We will be a billion dollar company by 2018 within five years. And I think they're, you know, well in their way to do that. The other thing that Tucci introduced was this notion of Platform 2.5, Platform 3, they talk about all the time, but Platform 2.5 is a tweener. First of all, I've never liked the Platform 3. Platform 3 is a marketing term. It came up with IDC. It's a very fuzzy definition. It's like, anything that's cloud, mobile, social, big data is Platform 3. It's like, okay, it's, now maybe they've got some deeper definitions than that, but I've not seen them. So it's, to me, it's always been a marketing term. But I think if you follow the workloads, you can identify what's going on in so-called Platform 3. So I think Platform 3 is great from the standpoint of organizing a company around a mission to focus on those new emerging apps. And those are mobile apps. Yeah. And I mean, Dave, just from what I see, it's really, a lot of the discussion is going from really kind of monolithic applications to more microservice-driven applications. So Hadoop, rather, it's distributed. Those mobile environments, it's not just something that I stick on a server, a group of servers that needs to be, you know, spread off the area. So I don't disagree with what your statement is, but there's very different infrastructure requirements for some of those modern applications and cloud applications. And we're having some challenges from the infrastructure guys to move there. So when I was listening to Joe talk about Platform 2.5, you know what came into my mind? You know what's a great example of a Platform 2.5? The mainframe, IBM Z, because it runs Linux. It's now got analytics systems, you know, systems of insight running on top of it with blue acceleration and data in memory. You know, we're talking Docker for mainframe. I mean, we're talking about a modernization of a legacy platform. That's what 2.5 is. And it's a good strategy. That's how we're going to bridge because people want a hybrid. We know that. Amazon says hybrid cloud is, you know, not something that we're interested in. Others want it. Pat Gelsinger called the public cloud a cul-de-sac. All right. Explain that, Dave. Well, so I think what he meant is you're not going to put all your workloads into Amazon. It's just not going to happen. Alex McDonald said he actually, and I didn't pick up on this. He may have said this, private cloud is a dead end. So that's kind of interesting. I guess the point being you have to have some mix of public and private. Everybody wants that. And so from a strategy standpoint, vCloud Air, you know, EMC hybrid cloud service, those are things that the federation is going to drive. And they have to. They were sanguine about vCloud Air. We've not seen it in the marketplace, but they're talking a good game. And I have to say, Stu, with very few exceptions, EMC tends to deliver on what they say they're going to do. Yeah. So the critic critique I have on that, Dave, is, you know, everything that Pat talks about is, you know, it's anti-Amazon. You know, don't use AWS. We all lose when, you know, we talk to the partners on it. And if you want to do hybrid, that's great. And we're going to give you both ends of the hybrid customers today. They're using VMware in the data center, and they're using Amazon and Azure in the public cloud. And if, you know, an EMC is embracing it in certain pieces, but VMware, you know, is just, you know, it's not in their DNA. It's not something they're going to do. And in fighting against customers. I couldn't agree more, Stu. I just don't see VMware's, you know, public cloud, you know, slash hybrid cloud strategy taking hold yet. They have one. But they've got to do a better job executing on that. And we know, I said that about EMC tends to deliver. VMware hasn't always delivered the whole, you know, application layer, and it took them a long time to get desktop virtualization right. Seems like they have that nailed now. So they're stubborn, aren't they? Joe talked about a billion dollar cloud business. Now that's maybe a kitchen sink number, but their EMC can sell infrastructure to cloud service providers. So if you add it all up, all those 4,000 partners they have, they're doing about a billion dollars in business to those partners. He talked about their R&D strategy, 12% in organic R&D, 8% in acquisitions over the last five years. So it was good. Very high level. In the Q&A session, I'll just say, Joe talked about, because they always ask him about the complexity of the portfolio, and he said he made the quote, if you have a seam, you'll see three competitors in a nanosecond. So his point is overlap is better than gaps. And I guess that goes to one of the points is to, you know, how do EMC and VMware compete against each other? Is that a problem or is that useful? Well, I think that's why EMC is not going to spin off VMware. I mean, VMware would win if they spun it off. And I think that EMC is in a position to adjudicate how VMware wins. So you said there were a bunch of customers that talked about why the Federation was great for them. Any anecdotes you can share? Yeah, I mean, the examples were, hey, I can now not only talk to my EMC rep about what storage I'm going to buy, but I'm trying to digitize my business. And to do that, I need a big data platform. And that's something I can talk to Pivotal about. Oh, by the way, I'm a VMware account. And I can talk to those guys. And I can have a strategic discussion. So Pat made a comment, which I thought was very interesting. He said, you know, these are tumultuous times. We live in tumult. It's good to be big in those times. It's good to be strategic with customers. And I think that, again, that was a underlying theme at the event. And you heard that from all the customers were there. Joe handed off the mic to Moritz and said that he'd been hounding Moritz for years to try to get him to come to work for him. Finally did, you know, gave him VMware. Obviously, Moritz was very successful with VMware. Moritz made a statement, which I tweeted out yesterday. He said, in the long run open sources where all large ecosystems will get built. Now, that was a really fascinating statement to me. I think clearly Pivotal is going all in on open source. EMC was almost anti-open source as was VMware for a long time and maybe still is. And I've talked to John Rose about this when he first came on. I said, open source is something you guys got to get your act together on. And I think they've said, Paul, you go. Yeah, Dave, exactly. Last year at EMC World, I got to ask Gould and Moritz and Gelsinger about open source. And Gould and Gelsinger said, open source is not a key part of how we go to market and how we work. That being said, I've seen a lot of effort inside EMC and VMware. Over the last year, of course, open stacks an area that they're both pushing hard in. And from an EMC standpoint, they've got a new group called EMC Code that's trying to help work on the developers. But Pivotal is where most of that action is. The other thing I'm curious, Dave, did they talk about Docker much? Because where you see both Pivotal and VMware are cozying up to CoreOS and Rocket, which is, of course, the company and the project that's trying to be the alternative to Docker. So while VMware and Pivotal have both said, oh, we love Docker and we're going to work with them, they're working hard to support the opposition, which slows down the market, creates a little bit of uncertainty out there. I think that is really perceptive and right on. And I don't think they mentioned the word Docker. In fact, I'm 99.9% sure. They, however, talked about containers and they talked about containers without compromise. And I think you're absolutely right. Containers are a threat. They want to slow it down. They want to understand it. But they did make the statement that we are going to, Pat said, we are going to embrace every new important technology that comes out. Containers is an example. Okay, great. Microsoft Azure, you know, I mean, there's an agreement there. You can run VMware and Azure. But I don't think Microsoft came up yesterday at all, except on the slide that Joe's showed that they were outpacing Microsoft's revenue growth. So yes, but they have to be very careful. Again, same thing with OpenStack, Pat said we are going to monetize OpenStack this year. So they, but in fairness, they're smart about that. That's a smart thing to do. They have to figure it out, come up with a strategy to actually participate in that market and add value for their customers without getting disintermediated. So the other thing Merritt's talked about, and I'll sort of move on to Pat's a couple of quick comments, they got three products, really the big data platform, Pivotal Labs is still in business. They're doing big deals. It's almost like the tip of the spear. They do these little projects, you know, maybe $100,000 and it leads to bigger projects and bigger projects. That's where we said the revenues and services, right? Well, that's the thing, is big data revenues and services, although Merritt's took a swipe at Cloud Air without mentioning Cloud Air saying that our goal is to build software as a service and that's really what Pivotal, the data platform and Cloud Foundry are all about is building subscription revenue, unlike some of the other big guys whose a lot of their revenue comes from training, although we had a discussion with Mike Olson the other day and he said definitively more than half of our business is from software licenses, so half the booking, so I don't know if that's 51% or what, I think substantial amount is probably still from services and as you point out Stu, over 40% of the big data market is services, so, but I think, and I talked to Merritt's offline and there's just, oh, another thing I want to share with you is, Tucci made a statement and I tweeted this out as well in his opening remarks as hey, we're the smallest of the big kind of thing, he didn't use that line again, but he was intimating that and he said we have to compete with guys, we've got to compete with IBM Bluemix. Now, IBM Bluemix is the poster child for Cloud Foundry's success, so I asked Merritt's about that afterwards and Merritt's is Merritt's, he sort of shrugged and he goes, yeah, you know, like the time years ago he told me, yeah, we're at war with everybody when he was with VMware, so he's sort of, he's seen it all and his point is, look, I know Joe's saying that and Joe's right, we do compete with IBM for Cloud, but I'm really pleased with Cloud Foundry and the progress that we've made and Bluemix is an example of that, so. Yeah, it's not all that different from saying that, you know, NSX is going to be one of their biggest growth engines which attacks Cisco, which is their biggest partner for building the $2 billion VCE acquisition, so it's always fun with the co-opetition in the IT space. So in the last few minutes, let me sort of, sort of go through Pat's conversation, I'll talk about Gould and Rapp. Pat's mentioned they're now a $6 billion software company, they're number five in software. I remember HP used to brag about how the number six software company, HP's really not a software company and they're sort of now with Vertica and Autonomy, they've got a piece that can become software and when they spin off the enterprise, blah, blah, blah. But VMware keeps moving up, you know, and doing really, really, really well from a revenue standpoint, customers love them, we know that, so they're in a good spot. They have to walk the fine line with partners, but they're doing that, I think. Four key initiatives, they got to win with the Software Defined Data Center, they got to win with VCloud Air as you know, need some work. They've got to get the architecture battle, the next generation architecture battle around whether it's hybrid and software defined data center, bringing in vSAN, bringing in NSX, that's key, and then the mobility. They brought in Sanjay Poonan from SAP, you know, obviously a great leader, he's got a strong team, they seem to be getting it done. You know, Citrix went off the rails for a little bit, Citrix is now coming back, you know, their CEO now refocused and re-energized, so that's very interesting, but so he laid out, Pat had a lot of content that I won't go into here, but a lot of announcements that you've been following, vSphere 6, I mean, it's only March and they've had a huge number of announcements already this year. Yeah, absolutely, vSphere 6 is big. Dave, I'm curious, did they touch it all on kind of the employee actions that they've done, both VMware and EMC have done some cuts, been a lot of shuffling at the decks, it seems like VMware has really stabilized their management, you know, you called out Sanjay, you got Bill Fathers, you got a lot of leaders now that have been there for a year or two, but yeah. First of all, Joe Tucci, you know, he's up there, he's a vuncular and he's just so good, he's lovely, I hope he never retires, hope I retire before Joe Tucci retires, and so he cares about his people, you can tell, but like Jack Welch, you got to prune every now and then, they do that, they prune, they've hired a lot of people, as you well know, he's stressed, we've got 21,000 go-to-marketing professionals in our organization, we've got 16,000 engineers and developers and we've got 22,000 services and consulting professionals, you spend a lot of time on that, and so no apologies there, but yeah, he definitely addressed the human resource aspect of it, and the other thing he said that I'll add is, he said, we are really good at attracting and retaining good people, and he pointed to Bill Cook and Scott Yarra and Paul Moritz, I mean, these guys got dough, they don't have to hang out at the big evil machine company, no, they're there because Tucci and the board enable them to have their sandbox and to grow their businesses and to do their open source thing and compete with the emcee, if they didn't, if they didn't have that kind of culture, it would fail, and so that's why I keep saying, people just, they don't understand the cultural aspects, you work there so you know, but so not withstanding that, they got a lot of challenges and one of them that came up in the meeting was, geez, they got EPS growth in the single digits for the next couple of years and all of a sudden you're assuming this big pop in EPS growth and I don't understand it and they talked about how a lot of that was going to come from their new initiatives that I'll address in a second. I want to talk about David Goulden, he gave a lot of data, Extreme I.O., $500 million in bookings, $300 million last quarter. He said something that's not true, he said we have the only scale out, Extreme I.O. is the only scale out architecture, everybody else is dual controller. Well I think SolidFire is probably even more scale out in terms of number of nodes than Extreme, although Extreme is obviously scale out at the common area and I think even the IBM 9000 announcement is true scale out, I get David Floyer's take on that, but so there are others, but nonetheless he showed some market share data, showed a steadily increasing progression for Extreme I.O. and everybody's going to say well, that's because they're subsidizing. What's your take on that? Yeah, so first of all, I mean from a revenue standpoint, there's no doubt that EMC is now number one in the all flash array market, Dave, but the question is how much is that just the sales team executing, how much is it them selling a big deal and shoving it in there, so I mean we pushed them hard questions the Extreme I.O. team, and first of all they said it took them a couple of quarters to become profitable by the end of last year, the group was profitable, and when you look at the mix, a third of the customers that are buying Extreme I.O. are new logos, new accounts, not EMC, so it can't be selling them a $10 million deal and giving it away if that's a third of them, there's a third of them where it's new use cases that they're adding it on, and then a third were upgrades, so they said they're within all of their normal margins, they're working hard, they feel they've got a really good product in this space, leader product in this space, so EMC's very aware of the fud that's out there, and they say they're winning the deals that they should, and they're growing big time and pushing hard. It's going to be interesting, I mean obviously Pure is doing well, it's in there attacking VMAX, it's going to be interesting to see how that whole thing plays out, and you've got new entrants, like 3PAR really starting to get aggressive. Yeah, I mean just an interesting thing, if you look organizationally at EMC, Extreme I.O. now reports to what's called the Core Technology Group, so they report to the same people, that Symmetrix, the VMAX and VNX, and they were always separate because David Fleury used to always joke, the number one competitor for Extreme I.O. was VMAX, because the VMAX guys don't want those going in because Extreme I.O. should be cannibalizing that big time this year. And the reason I brought up 3PAR is David Scott, who's now retired, made a statement to me on theCUBE a while back, he said, these new startups, very few are going to be able to achieve escape velocity, unlike the storage virtualization guys, 3PAR, Isilon, he threw data domain in there, very compelling, et cetera, who were able to achieve that because the economy was bad, the big guys were sort of not paying attention and took their eye off the ball, they were very much paying attention to flash. I mean EMC started the whole flash craze, and Pat Gelsinger on theCUBE said, we were behind, we got behind in flash, he said that at Oracle Open World, but we are going all in, and they made that sort of placeholder announcement, the freeze the market announcement, right? The VF cash or whatever that was, and then they went out, made an acquisition, product wasn't where it needed to be, took a long time to get to market, but it's ramping very, very, very rapidly. He talked about a software only Isilon coming this year. Yeah, I didn't know that, so I don't know if that was good information. It was interesting, because Isilon, if you look at what we looked at with ServerSan, or look at Hadoop environments, can I take something like Isilon, which has been doing good in the big data, and can I move the application, the compute to it? And architecturally, I mean, Isilon just uses standard compute nodes, so there's a lot that you could do with that. The other one that we think we're going to see a lot more this year from EMC is the ScaleIO, because that was an interesting acquisition. It doesn't have all the enterprise features, but it was built for scale, which is very different from most of the hyper-converged offerings out there. So, a little bit of ViperTalk, they didn't give revenue data on Viper, they gave customer data, 380 customers, which probably means there's not a lot of revenue there, if they're not giving revenue data. But one other thing, I forgot to mention Isilon, they really emphasize the 25% year-on-year growth, so Isilon is smoking hot, great acquisition, 2.5 billion, big number, but growth piece. So, the other piece is that those six things that we talked about earlier, NSX all the way down to VCE, they're not making money collectively, and EMC said, no apologies, they're not going to make money until 2017. Some of the Wall Street guys were kind of pushing on that. Well, if you're so confident of that, well, why don't you just write a bigger dividend check and say, here, trust us, you know, here's, we're going to, instead of asking us to wait, why don't you just write the check and say, yeah, don't worry, it'll pay off down the road. And Joe kind of said, nah, that's not kind of how what we're doing. The other thing that came up is that people were saying, well, why don't you raise more money? Why don't you, you know, take on some debt? You could, your balance sheet is very strong. Why don't you weaken it a bit? And Gouldin was like shaking his head, and Joe was like, Zane basically gave the sort of corporate response, like we're responsible and there's no reason to, and then Joe took it up and said, there's no reason to start getting over our skis and raise a ton of dough that we don't need to. We'll go to markets, which will have to increase the dividend and the stock buybacks and things like that. And we'll do that tactically, but we're not going to go nuts. We're not going to be irresponsible. And this is another part of the Federation. Pat talks about this a lot, EMC providing governance. It's almost like you got the bi-coastal situation. You got the guys in the West Coast, Maritz and Pat, and now you know, Churchwood, Desai, others. West Coast, Jeremy, who was there yesterday, didn't speak, a lot of West Coast presence. Now, and then you got the East Coast, you know, conservative, you know, stayed low risk. That's where RSA happens to be out here. So very interesting juxtaposition that, and they really try to pound that governance theme. Nobody asked if they're moving the headquarters to the West Coast. Nobody asked. Well, I think it's pretty obvious. VMware's there, Pivotal's there. Headquarters stays here. But there's headquarters out there too, right, so. So that was kind of it. If you want to check out my tweet stream, there's some great stuff in there. David Goulden had some really good slides that were a convendium of IDC Gartner, you know, and EMC data. One thing on there is I still think that they're, you know, as hot as Extreme IO is, their data still shows it's just a small slice of the market, maybe a few billion by 2018. I think it's low stew. I think that number is, that you'll see it on my tweet stream. It's the dark blue. I think that number is going to get much, much, much bigger. And then I think you'll, you know, have an opportunity to see some of the other things that I tweeted, which were some of the killer quotes, like Tucci saying customers want stacks, but they don't want to be locked in. And he said, it's a fine line, we walk. You know, he understands that line. So really fascinating discussions. Not a lot of new information, but it was sort of packaged very well and very professionally. And I think just underscored solid company. You know, do you run out and say, okay, this company is going to change the world? Maybe not. But what you do say is this company is a big customer base. They're highly customer focused. They're innovative. They know how to do acquisitions. They're going to keep throwing off a lot of cash and not going anywhere. They're going to be, I think, very successful going forward. And personally, I've said this a long time, I think they're undervalued because of the VMware piece. If you look at EMC's core business, compared to NetApp's core business, they get nowhere near the value of the revenue that, say, a NetApp gets as a pure play independent storage company. And yet EMC continues to gain share. They continue to grow faster. They continue to throw off more cash than virtually all their large peers. So I'll give you the final word, Stu. Based on what you heard and what you've been hearing in the Twitter sphere, what are your thoughts? Yeah, so you look at them, Dave, and I mean the Federation, this model's been there for a few years now. A couple years now is two years ago, you said when they put that together. They seem to be interlocking much better together. And we used to call EMC the execution machine company. So they've got a lot of bets that they're making, a lot of markets that they're pushing into. You know, the Wall Street guys, I'm sure have things that they'd rather see, but EMC's got a clear vision. They're all marching down the same path and they're forced to be reckoned with in all the markets that they play in. You know, I said we're going to end it there, but it sounds like we're EMC fanboys. Which I'm a fan. I've said I'm a fan of EMC, but there's not without challenges. You know, specifically the core business, you know, VMAX and VNX, they're going to get, they're getting attacked by Flash. Getting attacked by V-SAN. I mean V-SAN is not the only software defined architecture that's out there. Now of course EMC owns V-SAN, but there's alternatives out there. What happens when Tucci actually finally does retire? Sure. I mean Dave, as this Flash wave takes over, I mean EMC has had about 30% of the disc market. And you know, what does this look like? There's a lot more companies that are fighting for that. Convergence is a big scrum. Cloud is a huge, huge, huge, huge threat to everything the EMC is doing. And from a VMware standpoint, you know, I mean Amazon and Microsoft, you know, are just going after their business big time. So absolutely, there's huge threats to that. And Microsoft is looking solid based on the numbers. And Microsoft, I mean, you know. Our survey data, that was the one, the biggest finding of our survey data was how well Microsoft Azure is doing. You know, and under Nadella, they've got a new focus. And so you're right, that's a big, that bit, I have been very vocal about the economies of scale of cloud. That's something that EMC's got to contend with. And they don't have a good answer today, in my opinion, but they are investing to get one. And what's interesting, I was having a chat with a VC this week. And he said, you know, where Microsoft is really killing it is on all their applications, all the Microsoft applications, all the legacy stuff. But in the new world, if it all goes kind of the cloud mobile, social, you know, all that kind of piece, you know, Microsoft doesn't have a huge play there. And that's where Pivotal really needs to play a big role for the Federation, because if everything starts going to the cloud and that could erode VMware and EMC, will Pivotal be able to pick that up and, you know, be the next big IT player? So I think there's a transition coming. There's a market transition coming and there's a management transition coming. The guys who are running EMC and the Federation, they've been around for a while, right? I mean, you know, they're as old as I am, all right? So they're going to be around for a little bit. Tucci is going to retire at some point. What happens when Tucci retires? Who does the board put in? Can that individual attract and motivate people the way that Tucci was able to? How long is Merit's in it, you know? The guy looks so uninterested when he's up there giving a talk, but obviously he's engaged. People will crawl through glass for the guy. Pat is energetic. Pat's going to be around for a while. I mean, he's up there running around. He's in great shape and so, you know, he's not going anywhere, I don't think. But who knows, you know, you never know. Will he run the whole thing? Some uncertainty there. And I think that the board has some big challenges down the road in terms of, you know, who gets put in place post-Tucci. But in general, I've been saying it, the rich are getting richer in this business, you know? You look at what's happening with Oracle. You know, even Cisco, while they've got some challenges, certainly EMC, we've been talking about, Microsoft. You know, HP, would have liked to see in a better quarter from them, but that's the topic for another day. All right, Stu, I think we're played out on this one. Thanks very much for hanging with me and thanks everybody for watching. We'll see you next time.