 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump! Mind pump! With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, wow, we get to interview... What a great fucking- One of the Mount Rushmore's of mobility. Great. I said it. You know, a lot of the information that I share in regards to hip mobility, because this is where I went, and he was one of the few guys I found on YouTube giving really good information in regards to mobility. So, he's kind of like the godfather of band distractions. Band distractions, the resurrected, the accreted. And just mobility work period on YouTube. He's one of the first YouTube guys to start showing mobility stuff. If you haven't guessed by now, we're talking about Kelly Starrett. This guy is very, very well respected in the fitness world for his work and contributions to just mobility, functional flexibility, movement. He has a huge influence on the world of CrossFit in that particular regard as well. And we talk about that. We talk about how he started in fitness and what his passions are. And he's not a hard person to interview. You kind of give him the mic. Oh, man. He likes it on fire. And he goes for it. He just goes. His book, Becoming a Supple Leopard, is one of the... I mean, it's like, if you want to learn about mobility and flexibility, this is one of the cornerstones. This is one of the books you should absolutely have. In fact, when I walk into a movement specialist's office, if I don't see this book, I'm always wondering how good are they? Because it's like one of those Bibles in that regard. You can find his website is mobilitywad. So mobilitywod.com. Again, I mentioned his book, Becoming a Supple Leopard. Speaking of mobility... Yeah, if you are coming over from the Kelley Start family and just tuning into Mind Pump, you definitely need to look into our Maps Prime and Prime Pro, which is... Those programs were specifically designed to teach you how to individualize your priming sessions. So what you do before your workouts, that'll maximize your CNS recruitment, your muscle recruitment patterns, your performance, your results. We also have Prime Pro in that bundle, which is a correctional program that focuses on the neck, the shoulders... But it really simplifies the process like crazy. That's why we put the most effort into it. Well, you think of Kelley as one of the many brilliant minds that we pulled from to actually create this. So a lot of his readings and videos and stuff that we learn... Oh, we stand on the shoulders of giants, for sure. Absolutely. So if you're somebody who appreciates a lot of that, you'll also appreciate, because we've also combined things like animal flow, some kin stretch type of stuff. There's a lot of different modalities and different types of... Oh, if you have pain or you just want to move better, I mean, again, like I was saying, the neck, the shoulder, shoulder blades, the wrists, the hands, the feet, the ankles, the hips, I mean, the lumbar spine. We go into all of them, and we design it in a way to where you could go in there, do the assessment, and then identify what you need work on. And believe it or not, sometimes you have pain in one area, like your knee, but it's not your knee that's the problem. It's your hip or your ankle. And Maps Prime and Prime Pro will help you identify those. You can find those two programs at mindpumpmedia.com. And without any further ado, here we are talking to the great Kelley Starrett. I grew up in Germany. Oh, he did you? Yeah. Oh, shit. How old were you when he came here? 15. Oh, okay. You speak German fluently, then, huh? Well, you know, I speak German well enough to find the train station and flirt with the girl. I don't think I could discuss good... Which all that matters. Politics. So, yes, I'm fluent. Technical German, I was just teaching in Munich just like a month ago we were out there working. And German is the greatest language. So I have a good accent. I sound like I grew up in Germany, right? And people were like, wow, you're German. And then I left when I was like 13, 14. And that's when my vocabulary stopped. So I sounded like a really dumb German. He just doesn't know anything interesting to say. But German is the greatest language where you can take... Like, here's a word you guys appreciate. The word for nipple is Brutwadze, which means breast wart. If you have two words, you can put them together and create any new word. And I was working with some guys from the German national hockey team and I was trying to explain, hey, what we need to see in this plank is that when you're recruiting your glutes I want to, you know, what I'm looking for. And I was like, Aschklamm, which Klamm is the German word for gorge. So it's like ass gorge. And they were like, yeah, Aschklamm. And I go, okay, it makes sense, you know? And so like, it's really... I wish... I mean, if we had that level of precision, no one would ever get confused in the United States. We would just be clear about what we meant. Is that two niceties? That's right. German's one of those languages. Like Italian and French. Great for romance and stuff like that. But if you're pissed off and you want to scare the shit out of someone, German. I don't mind. It works for me. But it really did. When I go... When I teach in Paris or France, people are like, Kelly, don't try. Because now I sound like an American who speaks German trying to... It's terrible. I grew up in Europe. Excellent. So what got you into the world you're working now? I want to know what started that all off for you. Oh, man. Well, have you guys seen the Usain Bolt documentary? No, I haven't. I just watched his last race that he lost, though. Well, fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, he killed it for fucking 10 years. I mean, whatever, right? Right. Well, and, you know, I mean... Yeah, right. He's amazing. But he's such a likable athlete and he's such a good human being. But he talks about... I'm not going to make this comparison, but he says, hey, if you were great, you were always great. No one becomes great later on. You know, just in a lot of athletic talent, people merge very quickly and very early, right? And he's like, you just... Someone just doesn't show up in the scene, you know, and just like, hey, I'm here. I have known about my obsession about mechanics since I was, like, conscious. I mean, like, I remember... Really? Yeah, I was at a ski racing camp in Austria as a little kid. Did you just say you're the Usain Bolt of mechanics? Yeah, I was... Like, hey, your words not mine. That was great the way you did it. Weird association. The issue is that, you know, I have thought this way about my own training and the way, you know, picked... I had a really good coach, really good technical coaches, but this is the thing that I've always done. And I knew that I was really good at picking up patterns. Like, that's my secret skill. Like, I have better pattern recognition than anyone else. So I'm like, you show me... Let me watch something for a while and all of a sudden I can start to see how it works and what's going on underneath it. And that's how I solve problems as an athlete and how, you know, it allowed me to hack things like, you know, math tests. You know, really useful skills. But applying... When I finally figured out that this was it, applying that pattern recognition to my love of technical aspects, and the fact that I have one of the highest desires to train on the planet. Like, we do even do the genetics around it. I'm the 90th percentile for want to move, want to train, want to exercise, want to go nerd out. So it really is... I fell into this thing. The universe came around with YouTube and the sort of advent of modern strength and conditioning. And then also I was a failed athlete. I was injured athlete and that ended my sort of, you know, aspirations to be a high level paddler. And all of that confluence ends up here. And it's expressed in the things that I do every day because I like it. Like, there's no edge to the friends I hang out with or the people, things we talk about professionally or what I do for work or how I train with my wife. I mean, it is the same aspect of the same thing. When did you start to harness that, though? Was it when you got injured in sports? I mean, you recognized it early, but when did you start to, like, feed into that? When did you...? Well, I think, you know, when I was paddling at high level, ski racing in the same, you know, you inherit... So at some point you inherit some old system, right? Like, you know, one of the things we're always trying to remind people of is that someone comes from somewhere. So if they don't know something, it's not their fault. It's the fault of the system that they were in. So if there's a deficit in someone's training or they didn't know how to eat, it's not because they're assholes and they don't know how to eat. It's because no one ever showed them this is what human beings do and this is how we eat, right? And we have this... This reframing that, I think, is conceptually important because it's easy to poke, like, you know, what are you doing? You know, what is all this kind of wasting around? Well, people, I think, are working at the limits of their understanding and so it's important to frame that, you know, people are coming from somewhere. So when I came through, you know, training, there was some good strength and conditioning associated with skiing. There was some good, you know, training with the national team and so you inherit... It might not be the best system, but you get a little bit of that. And early on, we recognized, I think maybe because we just weren't the most talented, natural, or hadn't been doing it the longest, that we had to outwork everyone. So our little secret card was we were fitter, we were stronger, we put in more reps, we did more volume. Like, that was what we knew would get us there because we just weren't the freaks. We weren't freaks. We were just middle-level athletes, you know? We got to play at the big game, but we weren't ever going to go the distance and so in order to play there, and then that, you know, the world has changed radically. I mean, do you guys remember Donald Chu? He was from Stanford. He wrote some of the first books on plyometrics. Do you remember this? Well, he had a book that was like the size of like eight by ten flashcards and it was about medicine ball plyometrics and literally it was like he drew stick figures and like the stick figure would bend to the side and you would try to interpret that around like exercising, you know? And I got that book. I don't know how I found it, but I was like, you know, and I said to my best friend who I was training with on the national team, medicine balls. And I asked my grand, I asked my girlfriend's parents, like, what do you have for Christmas? I'm like, medicine balls. So they buy me an 18-pound medicine ball and I'm like, all right, that's the one, I guess everyone has an 18-pound medicine ball. And, you know, Jim Collie is rolling over in the grade from Dynamax and literally we went to the gym and we opened it up page one and just tried to interpret that and we did that for a while and kind of got bored and then worked our way through like 60 pages of this medicine ball thing trying to figure it out like sets, reps, volume rest. We did it until we blew out. And how old are you at this point? What point of your life is it? 22. 22. 21, 22. And literally we were, we had rhabdo. We were crippled. He was so pissed at me like we didn't paddle for three days. And, you know, just because we didn't know but that was the early ceilings. You know, we knew that we needed to eat better. We called up metrics, cold metrics. And we're like, hey, like, how about us? And they sent us shakes and those 100-gram bars, you know. Oh, the big 100. We lived on the big 100s and their protein shake. And I was like, good enough for Troy. Met a mice and protein. So Dallas Cowboys do hell right, you know. And like we, that was our attempts at trying to do the right thing. You know, I remember sitting down with like a reigning Olympic gold medalist and being like, why are you having a plate of pancakes before like, you know, this race today is like, because I like pancakes. You know, and I've always had pancakes. I'm like, holy, like the bar is really low. And now, I mean, my 12-year-old daughter is more sophisticated about training, nutrition, sleep recovery than I was. There's been a huge revolution. Amazing how much we've evolved. Oh, a huge revolution. Relatively recently in training, I've been professionally in fitness in big box gyms like that, you know, 24 fitness, gold gym, those type of facilities for a long time as in management. And I saw, I mean, I can't tell you how different it is even in those gyms. I mean, when I was managing health clubs, you know, 20 years ago, the squat racks had a dust. Like nobody did barbell squats. Nobody did deadlifts. Barely anybody did a standing overhead press. It was seated and it was very limited range. It was very limited range of motion. And then a long-came crossfit, right? Yeah, that changed it quite a bit, but it was really a lot of the information that we got was through the magazines, which were then designed to sell supplements. And bodybuilding was where we got a lot of information. Dude, muscular development was my magazine. Yes. Like my wife would literally be like, could you sit over there when you read that? Because I'm so embarrassed. She's like literally, she's like, there's a guy on the cover who looks like a big vegan cock. And I'd be like, right? Right? It's awesome. You know? And then I had all the research in there and I was like, look at this research. Muscle media 2000 was mine, because that was real crazy. We used to call that muscle and fiction. Remember that muscle and fiction? Muscle and fiction is what we used to call that. But then you had this huge influx of great information that came from the fall of the Soviet Union. You had all these scientists come over. And that's when you really got to see science applied without, you know, the sponsors or whatever to see kind of some just interesting information has changed. Have you seen the TED Talk? Great TED Talk. God, we've talked about this on the show before a long time ago that totally just shattered my paradigm. I would be the first to admit that even all my years in experience in the fitness world, I would have attributed a major reason for seeing the growth or the evolution of sports due to anabolic steroids. Like when I used to see an athlete now and if you compare LeBron James to the, you know, Larry Bird back in the days, I would have said, oh, it's because of all the anabolic steroids, but there's a great TED Talk that actually breaks down that really it's the science and how much we've evolved in nutrition and training and the shoes that you wear, the courts that they run on, the pools that they're swimming in, all the different things that we've added that have shaving all this time off and making the athlete better. It's crazy how fast that's evolved in the last 15, 20 years. They even talk about the democratization of sports where athletes are so specialized now, you know, like it wasn't that long ago in the Olympics where all the athletes kind of looked similar and now if you're a shop putter, you look like a shop putter. If you're a sprinter, you look like a sprinter and people look like they're born for their positions and then on top of that you have all this advanced training and it's just continuing to accelerate. It seems like mechanics and mobility now is the big thing now. That's what you're hearing a lot of and obviously you've written some incredible books. Supple Leopard was one of my absolute favorites. I've been groundbreaking for me at least when I first saw it because at the time there really wasn't much information on that. What brought you to that point? What made you want to write something like that? Well, I wanted to give up my weekends. I didn't want to hang out with my kids. You know, look, if anyone has written a book, you write it because you have to write it and you also write it because you need to put a steak in the stand and say, this is what I believe and it's a way of scaling. And the YouTube video is vital because we've seen a confluence of Soviet Union training practice sports science really evolve. I think it's easy to forget that we have been people have been really strong for a long time. People have been running fast for a long time and jumping fast for a long time and even when you amortize or remove some of the technology what you see is that there are really extraordinary humans for as long. There just weren't as many of them and they weren't training as consistently and the mountain walked with that log on his back. Remember, he took like the 5,000-pound log and he walked three steps and the old record was two steps that was set of 1,100 years ago. I'm like, really? That's what we get. One more. And that's extraordinary. And the guy was crippled afterwards and now the mountain goes on and he's a TV star. CrossFit, but at the same time Pavel was doing his thing, Dan John was doing his thing. The bodybuilding has become so sophisticated but you're right. What's interesting is there is that notion that you can shortcut your way. Have you guys seen the documentary, Icarus? It just came out? No. This guy, he was an amateur cyclist and he... I read about this. Chris Bell put it up, that's how he became aware of it and he had in his brain that somehow he could have been an elite but he missed his window from an accent. Remember, you were great, you were always great. But thought he has brain and then Strava tells us that, the internet tells us that. We think now, well, I can lift weights and I'm so good and look what I did in my garage. That's cute. My ding on the modern fitness and strength condition culture is that we have made this really egalitarian statement that like if you work hard enough, you too can be a joker. And that is total horseshit. It's just not. I'm glad you called that out right now. It is not the case. If you're a real mutant, you're like, oh, you're a mutant. And to your point around something that's changed is that we're seeing that people's training age is more sophisticated, longer. So that may be good and bad. I think sometimes we're losing athleticism, sometimes we're losing capacities because our old model was, look, play as much as you want. Just play a lot of different sports. We were obsessed, we turned everything into a game, we turned everything into a competition and we did everything we could possibly do and that's set it on fire. And then see what happens. And we came through models where in one year we did 17 sports. We just played and played and played. And for athletic development we said to kids like that was enough. Then later on maybe you lifted some weights or got some formal training. But I'm seeing all of that generation, my age, I'm in my 40s, all of those guys now are having their knee replaced, their herniated, their discs. They're having, you know, knee replacement. And that's because he came out of the system that said just play a lot. But now we have the other thing which is that these kids are just doing this hyper-specialization, sagittal movements. We only go up and down, forward and back. They don't actually throw a ball or calculate or surf or put inputs in that actually make us athletes. Olympic lifting is great. It makes you powerful and balanced and it's a movement practice. But it doesn't develop your ability to catch a ball or plan ahead or read a defense. No, that's something that comes from a lot of different play. But now we're seeing that the environment has changed underneath us. We are doing way more sedentary behavior. We're engaged in things that look like a lot less movement. We do a lot less play. A lot more kind of formal socialization. And now that we have to go to the weight room earlier because we're not getting it on this other side. So I think the pendulum has swung this other way because kids aren't enriched enough. They're specializing early and they're becoming hyper-specialized. Even to some of the CrossFit kids, we're seeing these kids have amazing work capacities. Their positions are incredible. Does that translate? Because we have to ask ourselves why are we training in the first place? What's the best way to develop this athleticism? And it turns out, mechanics was such a low-lying bullet fruit. We were just tripping on people having problem after problem, not setting world records because they couldn't see their incomplete positioning. There was such a gap between saying this is full physiologic capacity and this is how you're moving and that's why I think this stepped in and really united this idea. So as a physical therapist, classically trained, we say we mobilize a joint, mobilize a tissue. Eric Kressi made a DVD called Magnificent Mobility which is like a dynamic warm-up thing from a long time ago. That's the only other reference to mobility before we got on the game and started saying mobility. Now, if I could take that word back, it's become the word core. Extreme. Every creature deals with that. It happens in everything in fitness, so you know that. We take it and then we go to the extreme. We were the first Wad ever. I was like, I'm so clever. I'm so clever. I was like, Glutenwad. So now my business is called Stretching of the Day. I'm just like, oh man, I have the lamest name ever in mind pump. Just wait. So you said something about that I want to go back to. You said that this could be good, this could be bad and I want to elaborate on this because I think you're an excellent person to have this discussion and you've got my mind thinking right now. I have the ability to talk to millions or not millions, tons of great minds in this field. Not millions, tons of great minds in this field and mobility specialist and movement specialist and one of the things that I never really thought about until getting a chance to talk to a lot of these great minds was sometimes when we see these athletes that just because they're super badass at their sport, they have as much if not more dysfunction than somebody who's never even played a sport at all and so if you have these kids that are starting at even earlier ages is there a fear of could we also be starting to cement bad patterns or cause even more problems because just because they're playing the sport at an early age doesn't necessarily mean that they're moving properly and could that actually be setting them up for even more? Well, you know, so specialization aside, right, so when we hear specialization, think Tommy John surgery, right, like I've overused a kid somehow, you know, like this kid got through high school swimming three shoulder surgeries, never gonna swim again I'm like, okay, now that's classic when you hear specialization be thinking we've injured children but now let's say what is you know, what's specialization in a way where we're not developing athletes. So now there's been two or three high level football coaches who say we don't recruit unless kids play more than one sport. It's a ding against the kid. And don't get me wrong I'm like, oh really? So if I show up with my 6 foot 3 7 foot, you know, 400 pound daughter, like yeah, Sheila did one sport but as I really think that they're looking at you know, your ability to change patterns to be able, you know, even in my daughters, my 12 year old who plays club volleyball, which is just so great because sometimes people think that, you know, I'm in a garage making this shit up and I'm not like I am a user working and helping working coaches solve their problems and at this point what's cool is that I get to see everyone's dirty laundry you know, I'll be hanging out with the blue jays on, you know, day after tomorrow right? And we've been working with that team for years and trying to support and not trying to change your team, trying to help them solve the problems of being modern athletes so, you know, how do we manage sleep better when you're on the road? How do we get kids warmed up more effectively? How can we, what's a faster way to clean up this mechanic, right? So that's, we do that a lot across a lot of different fields but the same thing applies to how do I get kids to eat right in between volleyball matches, right? And it's so good because you know, trying to get parents on board, you can see how there's this like beautiful theoretical construct of how we all should eat and you know, and the kids are like looking for oval in between rounds, you know, and meanwhile their mom is like giving them, you know, caffeinated cliff blocks after like, you know, a match and I'm like, uh, your heart rate, daughter's heart rate is up over 130, you know, like, why is she eating a sugar block? Because she's gonna, you know, I mean, literally it's, it's the worst. I go around and take photos of what these teams are feeding their kids and it's just poison, it's process poison from the vegetable oils to like the high, you know, the bagels and I'm like, what, what are we, what kind of messages are we sending? Then what we see is that these kids who have gotten really good at volleyball at age 12, and by the way, I'm like, no one wins the world championship at age 12. Like, you just, you don't know, we can start to see who is the best athlete in the room, but you're just 12. And then those kids come to my house and train and they can't throw a medicine ball. They can't swing a bat. They can't jump and land. They can't, you know what I mean? And we start to see that, wow, they can swing from the outside with their left hand and they're really good at that but they've been sitting in the front row doing this one hyperskill and they are not good human beings. So we need to struggle to make generalists all the time and out of that generalist, we will always get the specialist when they're ready. You know what I mean? Because you can do that. But the, and we all want to do, we all want to, you know, short, you know, shortcut, specialized, specialized, even some of the elite level, you know, cyclists we've worked with. They're like, hey look, I'm not squatting now because, you know, I don't think I'm big. And I'm like, well, okay, let's find, let's squat to make your hips work. And I'm like, ride this week, don't do any swings or squats. Now ride this week and you swing the squats and they're like, my power went through the roof. What happened? I was like, well, there's this thing called your hip. And when you know how to work your hip, when it works, it generates a lot of power. So all of a sudden you start turning those switches back on and that's where we need to think. And, and struggling because it's not, we didn't end up here by accident. We fetish that's going to implicate how we think about collegiate sports. And because collegiate sport is a professional sporting endeavor. So if you want your kids to play at college, basically they're saying to your family, I want my kid to be a professional athlete at age 19. That's what that means. In terms of load, demands, travel, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, everyone who's written about the collegiate sport machine. But of course that impacts high school and if you look at what's going on, we basically have high school level professional athletes in terms of the training volumes they do in no off time and, you know, and it is a self-perpetuating thing. So at some point we have to, we're going to have to culturally, and it's going to be led by the strength edition coaches to say, look, we're going to train you around. Yes, that's what we do. That's what human beings do. But we're going to have to make sure your kid is not doing the same little tiny window movement pattern. And we have to continue striving to develop good athletes. And that means athleticism and that means not just squatting the barbell up and down, which is a sport, which is fine. But the traps in there are manifest. So that if you think that powerlifting is the way then everything goes through that nail and suddenly you're like, well, if I turn my feet out to squat to depth and I'm teaching kids to squat to depth by turning their feet out, when that kid tears her ACL because her foot was turned out and she cut land, that's my fault as a coach. So we need to be thinking a little bit differently about saying, what can we learn from the body builders around weight reduction and caloric restriction in our sports that we have weight classes? What can we learn about our endurance athletes about best practice around develop aerobic engine? How can we take our Olympic lifting and say this is great Olympic lifting for sport and really cobble together a program that makes really stable competent athletes who can be a lifetime because people are burning out in their 20s and 30s or injured in their 20s and 30s, 40s and that's not it. Goddamn, I love that you said all that, especially in regards to training children because once they get, I think people don't realize, especially once you're an adult and you're a high performing athlete as an adult and you've been training a certain way for so long, you've become so exhausted and so good at compensating. What do you do with that, Kelly? Let me ask you that. What do you do with, I'm a 23-year-old 24-year-old professional athlete. I've got fucked up biomechanics but I'm really good at my sport. That's just the way I move, I've been moving this well. Welcome to my job. So I always kid that I'm going to see you for a couple reasons. One, that you're injured and don't want to be injured and come see me. We're going to talk about it. Two, you're losing, you don't want to lose, you're going to come see me because you don't have your swing, you don't have your pitch. Something's going on. So we make it a matter of status. It's a line in the sand that we don't address athletes mechanics. I don't teach you how to throw the ball, that's not my job. I don't teach you how to kick or jump, that's not my job. My job is to optimize and find out where you're dumping torque and compensating and I use a correlate system and that correlate system is strength and conditioning. So when we organize supple effort, it's organized around these archetypal positions, they are fundamental start positions and finish positions for the shoulder and the hip and they express as the end range, the full language, the full vocabulary of that. And so if you're your front squat like this guy, you've got your hands up by your neck and your front squat and you don't have the right shoulder mechanics, which means you never get your lad on, which means we're going to see problems when you throw the rugby ball in at the half, the way you bench is going to be. We can start to see a lot of these things and we're clever enough to also respect that there have been a lot of really good coaches for a long time and we need to interpret their work. So when the master coach says something like, you know, I like the bench press, it ties the arms to the body and you're like, okay, what does that mean? I agree. What does that mean? Well, what it really meant was kids who could bench press could create highly stable shoulders and didn't have problems when they're out in front, right? Because they had in order to bench heavy, you have to learn how to break the bar. You have to learn how to spread the bar. You have to create a stable shoulder approximately. So we can then say, okay, well, what are the root positions we all should be able to have? And it turns out that is the working language of strength conditioning. So whether you're ahead of Bellista or your Olympic lift, whether you do yoga, whether you do your pilates, you're going to see that the hip is the hip and the shoulder is the shoulder and the spine is the spine and breathing is breathing and it's remained so for the last 10,000 years. It hasn't changed at all. Now how do you train these athletes and create some of these new patterns without compromising their technique? Because we don't talk about technique. We talk about squatting and the athlete is smart enough to be able to do it. So we don't, so literally, we'll get emails and letters, hey, this athlete was so prepared. So that's a false paradigm then, that you correct something and that's going to throw your technique. No, no, especially when we are failing to realize that when good excellent coaches, I'm talking about world class best coaches are teaching the techniques that best express the physiology. So it's not an accident that we throw a certain way because we're all obsessed with throwing them really far or doing a certain way and what you'll see is it's rare we run into a coach and usually they're a young coach who doesn't see that their coaching ultimately is expressing a certain position of the physiology, right? It's because the shoulder works better in this position and everyone knows it. So when we do certain things with our bodies, it's ultimately about getting the physiology into a position where we can express the most force, right? That's what good coaching is doing. You know, you're javelin, you turn the thumb down, right, before you pull and you pull all the way through well it turns out when you turn the hand down and you pull all the way through the shoulders in a position, the coach might not know that but they knew that when they turn the thumb down they had a good finished position, a good power, right? So what you're going to see is that all of the techniques that have come through our movement traditions, our movement histories, ultimately are expressions of good technical movement. So when you give the athlete normal technical movement capacity then they're just able to express it because it's what the technique is doing. So it's not like we do the splits and then I just hope it magically works, right? We do a bunch of foam rolling and then pow, you got better. Well, no, that doesn't work, right? What does work is saying hey, we're going to reinforce this position. We think that all of the mobilization soft tissue work, all those techniques we're doing we call those position transfer exercises. Why do we give a shit about that? Because it's about improving your ability to get into these fundamental positions which express how the ankle becomes stable, which expresses how the knee is more stable, which makes the hip work better. And so when we sidestep the conversations about what's the technique that you're using with your coach A, we don't step on some coach's dick, right? And get into some power battle as the coach because that's really important. I was just going to ask you our job is to support the coach. My job is to help that athlete be ready to receive the coaching from the coach, right? So they can do what the coach says. And there's conversations about which way you should step and how, you know, in the NFL we'll see that but when my athletes can generate stability in all these positions at least they can do what the coach asked them to do. And so what we do is we reinforce fundamental mechanics. This is why bench pressing will never screw, bench pressing well or pressing overhead well will never mess up someone's throwing mechanics because it's actually teaching them how to be stable. It's teaching them how to be in good positions. And then when you restore someone's internal rotation, it turns out that they can punch harder or they can throw more effectively. And that's where we can use our correlate movement language of strength conditioning to find the problems that you really have a difficulty seeing at speed. And don't take my word for it. I work with the all black side work. I mean, the number of teams we work with where we haven't fucked up a whole bunch of teams because we're just stretching and pulling on shit. It's because we're helping athletes get into more functional positions which are the expressions of what the coach is asking to do in the first place. And if you drop into any good coach, master coaches are really good at doing a billion drills to work around the problem. And so the first time I saw this, I was down with Mike Bergner down in Southern California and he was my original weightlifting coach and I saw, I remember working for him, and this is probably another conversation about young coaches not hustling. But my wife and I, I had a baby in a gym and I was in grad school and I would fly down on Friday night to go work for free for coach Bergner. I would just, can I be in the same room as you for two days and like carry your barbell around, sir? You know? And I hustled and scrimmed set on my friend's couch and I did that weeks so that I could be in the same room listening to a master coach coach over and over again, try to understand what he was teaching. And what I remember one day, I was like, I'm in physical therapy school, I'm watching this master coach coach and he had 50,000 skill transfer exercises to get something done. And I was like, how the fuck am I going to ever learn 50,000 drills for this sport and 50,000 drills for swimming and 50,000 drills for running and then I realized I didn't need to. If my athletes could get in the positions, I needed five skill transfer exercises. And so our job is to continue to simplify mechanical literacy so that when the coach asks for something, the athlete can do it right away the first time. Wow. Did you ever get pushback when you first did this? Because no, we help people break world records. That's how, that's how we got it. Like people got into a better position and they went faster. Right away. What is that? What did you do? We worked on their squatting and what I didn't let them do was compensate while squatting which is the thing we've got to do. And that's the problem with the internet or the problem with, you know, if we're only using the bar as the weight on the bar or the speed to say this is a good position and I came out of that tradition we did something and there was a clock and we went faster. The coach was like, do that again. You went faster and we're like, I don't know what I did. Let's do it again. And we kind of, you know no conversation about how mechanics carried speed and technique, you know. Who is it? When I work with some of, there's a pretty elite military group. I'll just say you've heard of them and one of their training modules is they never say go faster. When they teach close quarter combat they never say to the person coming through training go faster. Speed will automatically be there when the mechanics are solid. So they're like, don't make any mistakes. If you go in and the person will automatically push that boundary. But the cue from the coach is never go faster. The cue for the coach is, hey, look at your foot position. Be better. Where's your awareness? Be better. And then the speed starts to come and I think that's really where it's important to understand why this conversation it's about sustainability and about output. And we don't talk about and we should probably talk less about do this because you might get injured. You may or may not. You may be able to bench like a chicken your whole life and never have shoulder problems. But what I can say is when you bench like a chicken, you're not benching as much as you could bench. When you sit in that position you can't take a full breath. Well, let's talk about that because we talked a lot about athletes right now. We went that direction but let's talk because since our average listener is probably somebody who just wants to build some muscle, wants to lose some weight how important is the priming of getting ready for a workout? How would you speak to that for the average person that's trying to just lose body fat or build some muscle? How important is it for them to set their body up before they go into their gym? Well, you know, first and foremost if you're thinking about your training cycle as the hour and you're in the gym you've got it wrong. I think we've fallen into some category where remember that Baz Lerman song like don't read the girly magazines they'll only make you feel ugly. Those are like wear sunscreen. Well welcome to fucking Instagram. Instagram makes me feel like I'm a shitty athlete who's totally lazy all the time like I don't know. I haven't been to her 500 this week. Oh my god, you know, and I don't have abs and I'm not tan and I can't jump out of the pool. That's right. I'm like that is what my Instagram is fetus. It's full of like curated superheroes and I'm like, you know, and we see this up and down and there's a good article that basically Instagram is changing our concept of beauty and really it's not good for us. You suddenly are like, you know, I guess my training partners aren't that strong. You know, I'm like, they're your fucking training partners. I don't know. My wife isn't that hot or you know, my kids aren't that smart, you know, but you know, we even saw this a long time ago with, we have this friend here. Here's going to just show that I'm like a middle-aged sensitive guy now. Sunset magazine, right? Which is about California living. We had a friend who she was like always comparing herself to Sunset magazine and she was like, you know, I'm just a failure as a homemaker and I was like, yeah, I'm like, look at your topiary giraffe. It sucks, you know, and I don't know where that came from and, you know, she stopped subscribing to this magazine because it messed her up and I think we have lost what's going on around, you know, beauty, capacity, you know, you know, we just, we lost that. I don't remember the original question. Well, no, it's going back to priming for a workout, right? How important you're talking about the hour. So the way we want to simplify is I want people to do less. I want to integrate practices so you get your life back. If you're doing meal prep instead of reading the New York Times, you know, I mean, is there a way where we can streamline this to give you your life back so that fitness thing isn't a 24-7 obsession, you know, where you know, what we want to do is we see where I'm doing all my reading these days isn't like a lot in complexity theory and what we're seeing is that the human being is such a complex system and that it's really difficult for us to make head or tails of all the complex inputs and the complexity within the system. So you do this intermittent fasting, but then it turns out you worked out really hard and then you're under calorie and so you eat at 11 o'clock at night because you're starving and then you get up at 6 and have your first bowl of coffee, you only just fasted for seven hours. Like is that, is that right? You know, is that, excuse me, is that your intention? You know, so how can we create practices that really allow the sort of that training as a part of the physical practice, right? But the physical practice is the way I think about and conceptualize the day. So, you know, whether that may mean eating vegetables or drinking water or trying to move more or take care of my sleep, I mean, we could have a whole show and I'm sure you guys have about sleep. Like people are like, I'm going on drugs. I'm like, that's great. How much did you sleep last night? And I'm like, good, you just cancel it out. So now you're as mortal as everyone else. And you keep shoving that testosterone in your ass because five hours of sleep, it's totally fine. It's just, it's a, you know, canceling effect. And so what we want to do is say how can we simplify so that when the magic hour comes and I've done the miraculous heroic thing of getting to the gym, that I'm not laying on the ground foam rolling, right? I'm not doing a bunch of corrective exercises that I'm making forward progress. That means I may need to conceptualize my day a little differently. So for example, yes, the research shows that maybe doing some targeted foam rolling can help you with range of motion, but that's not what people do in the gym. You know, so if you have an hour, I want you jumping rope and playing games and warming up and getting under the barbell and practicing skills and doing gymnastics, then squatting heavy, right? Instead of I'm going to come to the gym and sit on the bike for two minutes and then lay on the ground and roll for two minutes. And then like you're not doing anything there, right? The gym should be this intense time. Where do I do the soft tissue work, Kelly? In the 10 minutes before you go to the bedroom. So in that last 10 minutes, for example, nothing good is happening in your life, right? You're not in the bedroom yet, so nothing good is happening. You're on Facebook. Yeah, okay, living while I have kids, so it's the bedroom, right? So the idea though is, you know, we're not seeing that, hey, if I put that 10 minutes of soft tissue working before I go to bedroom, then I could get off social media or I can be on social media watching the TV, doing something else, working on a discrete time where I can take the information of the day and say, hey, my quads are really tight or my hips were tight today. I went overhead or something hurts and use that as a diagnostic tool. Treat that for 10 or 12 minutes of some soft tissue work. And by the way, when you do the soft tissue work before you go to bed, you'll sleep better. Then you'll sleep denser. You'll fall asleep faster. Well, it's parasympathetic. It's CNS dampening, which is what you want. So now we've integrated, I've respected your time a little bit more at the gym, right? And now I've also slept better and I've also done some soft tissue work, which has been on the day before my next day of training. And so what I think is much more effective is find a program that you like, right, where you're making gains, you know, because we laugh, Matt Vincent and I laugh at this all the time, you know, people are like, yeah, you know, at PR by 40 pounds on this cycle on the bench, I'm like, wow, it's impressive, you know, and they're like, I'm going to change programs though, because, you know, this program is better. I'm like, you just made a huge gain. Like, what are you doing? Like, when it stops working, you know, work it one more time and then, you know, then go. And so, you know, find a program you like in the gym. Make sure that if it's about losing fat, that you don't get sucked into not conditioning, you know, you, even if you are a big badass strength athlete, you have the right to need to be able to run a mile all out. And if you can't do that, you know, you have, you're going to have some cardiovascular problems, right? And you probably work harder in the gym. You can do more sets and recover more quickly. And fasted, I don't care what it is, but like if you're telling me you can't swing kettlebells and do some sled drags for five minutes after a hard, you know, deadlift session, you're really out of shape. And you're using this as an excuse, you know? Like that guy in my gym who puts on the weight vest so he can be lasting the workouts, right? Like the same thing. But if you're interested in this, what you're thinking is, hey, I'm going to lift heavy weights, it takes some preparation. So if I've been sitting all day not drinking water all day, I'm not fueled, I haven't done these soft tissue work the night before, what are the chances that I'm going to be able to snatch heavy? Or do any of the compound movements we know are required for the best up-regulation in the CNS? Exactly. And the neural connect and access. We have to treat that training very, very seriously. It's a huge shift in mentality because we just had this conversation before we got here, recorded a previous episode and, you know, we've talked about many times of how running outside, how the average person going outside and running is one of the more damaging things that people can do, but it's not the running necessarily, it's because of the mentality. People aren't going outside to run to learn how to run better. They're going outside to run to fatigue. That's their metric. Their metric is, I'm just going to get tired. I'm going to go run until I get tired, which means that they're just strengthening these horrible patterns because they never run. So then they go outside and they go run. They create these bad patterns. Or remember, that person doesn't know any other way. That's right. The internet and the world has said if you want to get fit, go run. That's what I mean. Right? I don't need a coach. It's free. I can go run. And we saw that same problem with some of the early days of CrossFit where people were going in and it was about fatigue just going there and hammering myself. You see that with regular gym workouts. And I think the shift in mentality is rather than going in to beat yourself up and just get sore and tired because that's not what we attribute a good workout to, let's treat it like a practice. Like I'm going there to learn this. Oh, heresy. You just shut your little horn mouth. What are you saying? That human being is a skill-based thing. So let's put the skill back in here. You know, at my gym, right, we've on the San Francisco CrossFit now in our 12th year, we have seen everything. We've had more world champions and world record holders and Olympic champions. And we have a lot of people that come through that gym who are very serious. George St. Pierre trains at our gym, right? So CrossFit, Schmausfit, right? The idea, though, is I still run a conditioning class Tuesdays and Thursdays at 9.30 a.m. Anyone's open. You want to come to town and condition with me? And it's called skilled conditioning. And the thing is a way to challenge your positioning. And if you can't hold your position, you suck. Goddamn, I'm so glad. And literally, I'm like, look, if you just want to go breathe, bleed through the eyes, go to SoulCycle. It will crush you. That one pound pink dumbbell for a main wraps plus the cycle. I'm telling you, you won't, yes, you won't be able to keep up. So today we had a really fit athlete who could not maintain position. Feet were collapsing, ankles in, right? And I saw it in kettlebell swings. I saw it in the step-ups we were doing. I saw it in the rowing. And I'm like, hey, look, every single time you flex your hip, your knee comes in and your arch collapses, that's compensation. So you may never, for a while, be limited by your lungs. Some of you, right? Some of us are. Some of us are just fat and old. But sometimes you're only limited by your ability to maintain a position. We know you can grind on because that is testing and that is competition. That's the real world. There's times where, look, we're having a world champion in the world and I'm deadlifting for the love of a beautiful woman. You might see some rounding when it gets really heavy and I'm super fatigued, right? Because, but if I'm training so we start to have this conversation, why are we training? What are we doing here? And especially in that conditioning, because we take, because I'll tell you watch people lift. You're seeing pretty good movement. Like the sophistication of the CrossFit coach, I'll take over any ballies coach, any torn for our fit. Really sophisticated, hardcore coaches. It's hard to find unless you're like training with Defranco. It may be hard to find that genius coach. But what I'll tell you is that it's all of the throwaway, bullshit conditioning boot camp stuff that's causing the epidemic of problems where the metric is intensity. That's it. Orange theory. You weren't even in the orange theory today. You weren't in orange. You suck. You must have been, I mean how was that entering into, because you said you've had your CrossFit gym for 12 years? Yeah, let's talk about the business brain of yours, because I know for sure because I've listened and read some of your stuff. I know you saw CrossFit and you didn't go like, oh, this is awesome. I know you saw and saw the opportunity to come in and help it and fix it. Is that how you got involved? No, not at all. I came in as a national champion member of the national team, superstar athlete who got his ass kicked on basic skills. The world has changed radically. Do you remember, I mean, Pavel wrote in a book it must have been like 13 or 14 years ago the kettlebell snatch test. Just 100 kettlebell snatches for time. And some really good UFC fighter was like, that almost killed me. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. And my daughter now uses that as a finisher. She's like, 5 minutes. That was good, right dad? I'm like, yeah, it's pretty good. You're 12, right? And that's how the world has changed. So I came in and realized that I wasn't strong, wasn't fit. I had big deficits in my ability to Olympic lift. I didn't know anything about gymnastics. Brian McKenzie taught me how to run. You know, I had heel pain, I had knee pain every time I jogged. You know, every time I jogged. So I didn't run because I didn't know how to run. So there were just massive deficits. You know, I remember I was working with Jim Schmitz and so, you know, I was Olympic lifting before I found CrossFit. I was working with Jim Schmitz in South San Francisco who was a former Olympic coach. And, you know, he had me to do some testing. I'm like, I cleaned 225. Suck it. I'm here, you know, and he was like, wow, can you do that for me? And he was like, what? You know, and it was sucked. And, you know, I had such gaping holes, you know, infinitely I got my ass kicked by a couple of workouts. And at the same time I discovered that I wasn't fit or strong or skilled, I was in physical therapy school. And I was trying really hard to reconcile what I had learned as an athlete, as a failed athlete who got injured with what I was seeing from Dan John, who was involved with CrossFit early on, talking about basic barbell training, Mike Bergener, some of the gymnastics skills, you know, Coach Summer, and then what I looked like as a physical therapist. And I was really like, I was like, oh, these straight art, you know, short arc, quad, straight leg raises really, that's not how we train for the Olympics. So I'm so confused now. And I really struggled to integrate these concepts. And it's so obvious now, but it's not obvious. Like, when you take a band and distract your hip, you know, that's me working out trying to take all of the techniques that I learned as a physio, and we're needed a physio, and teaching myself how to do it to myself, right, that's what the band work is. So if you've ever seen a band, I invented that, right. I'm not saying Dick Herzl didn't invent the jump stretch man. He pulled the stretch out. I was going to ask you about that, like, yeah. Dick Herzl is the man, right. He invented the jump stretch man, but he was not distracting. No, you were the first person to see I've ever seen do all the band work. Right? Because I was trying to mobilize the capsule the same way I did as a physical therapist, saying that, hey, look, you know, it's got a scale, you know, like the first time I did a rib screw, you know, because when I came to physio school, for example, no one was mobilizing for position. We mobilized for pain. Like, maybe you flagpole on the bar, you hang a little bit, right. You do some ground stuff, some animal flow, right. But like, you know, no one ever said, well, I have a soft tissue restriction, let me fix that so I can go do it better. And I remember working with Eva Tordokin, who was an Olympic skier, and then was actually is like a national medalist in Olympic lifting, and she was having a hard time getting overhead one day, and I was like, wait a second. And I was like, and I just mobilized her t-spine. And then she was like, wow, what was that? And I was like, I don't know, but that's fucking awesome, you know. And I remember I had an UFC fighter in the gym for something or in the physical therapy clinic for something. He was talking about his guard. You work on his guard and I mobilized his hips to get into better guard. And then he was like, man, I was wrapping my face, my toes around his face, and I just crushed him. And he was like, what did you do to that guard? And I was like, I just gave your hip its normal range of motion. And that's how I started mobilizing for position, because that wasn't taught, or wasn't even part of the lexicon, right. So when I came to CrossFit, then started seeing the volumes of people exercising, but who did not have all the range of motion standards that I was learning. I was like, what is going on here? Like you can do 40 pull-ups, but you can't actually hold two dumbbells over your head and you can't put your arms over your head without bending your elbow, right. And then four months later, you're like you're my shoulder hurts. And I was like, huh? Is there a correlation between these shitty overhead positions and high volume training and incomplete capacity in shoulder pain. I wonder, let me test it while I resolve their shoulder position, improve their shoulder mechanics, you know, and lo and behold shoulder gets better and then they do 50 pull-ups, right. So, you know, I came out of a necessity of solving the problems that I was seeing as a gym owner, but I also happened to be a physical therapist and I also happened to be around when they invented YouTube, which was really useful. Oh, wow. Wow. What do you say about so, Chris CrossFit's changed quite a bit. Oh man, did you watch any of the games? I watched some of them. Matt Frazier. But watching these girls, like you, you know, remember the last time you snatched 300 and you got six plays? Yeah, right. Exactly. I know. I was like, I'm like, and then you ran a 5K and then you did like, you know, I mean, what, you know, when you're watching these, you know, everyone has become so technically proficient at the top and there's no, there's not very much crappy movement at the top because you're seeing you can't do it and win, which means we just learned the lessons that we, everyone else learned a long time ago that it's always about mechanics and mechanical efficiency. So, you know, the world has changed on us radically for sure. And, and what I'll say is, look at the early concepts of any movement and you're going to see poorly understood application. Greg Glassman, you know, he and I, don't necessarily see eye to eye on everything, right? But what I'll tell you is that he never said, round your back when you deadlift, he just let, you know, he was like, here's your back, keep it flat, even in isometrics, or even when you fail, back is flat. And then everyone else was like, woo-hoo, because I'm cross-fitting. I'm doing more reps. Right, I get to disregard the rules of science, right? How do you train Olympic lifts to fatigue? Because that's like, I, one of my issues with some of these workouts that I see is that you're doing these Olympic lifts and as soon as your fatigue form breaks down and Olympic lifts are so fucking technical, like your form tends to go off, or is it just constant training? I think it's constant training. I think if you, if you come to my gym, you're going to see 400 people who squat their feet straight, you know, you're going to be like, that's weird, you know, and what you're going to see is that if you let people get away with slop and value only their time and who won, dude, we're going to win. Like, you know, if you and I have a pie eating contest, pie's going over my shoulder, pie's on my face, but I'm like, I ate more pie than you did, and you're like, look at all the pie around, and I'm like, I won, suck it. And so we, you know, who has said what gets measured gets managed, what gets measured gets valued. And so it's difficult for us to say, you know, play the long game around this, and that's a culture. So if you just turn the music up, you are a shitty coach. I grew up coaching, like, I like a little music. My wife and I always battle, I would like to coach to no music all the time, right, just because I want my coaches to be able to do that. Well, you're a technical guy too. But I'm coaching my ass off the whole time, and when I want everyone, so a little music for theme, for feeling, but the other person on the side of the room can hear my coaching cues all the time, right? And so, you know, if you don't, if you're not a fan of like snatching a barbell for 55 pounds, then you shouldn't be a fan of snatching a kettlebell for high reps. You shouldn't be a fan of high-rep running. high rep pull-ups like oh you did 10 pull-ups in a row you know so I think the key is good point what are we You know some of those movements I think the real error is not what we're gonna see more people get injured But that we're we're seeing cross purposes around the patterning so that if my I'm using Olympic lifting to teach Stable shoulders and how to jump and you're pulling off of your toes without your heels and you're and you're doing this high rep kind of aerobic lifting with a barbell and You're not seeing how that's going to disrupt when we go really heavy because practice doesn't make perfect practice makes permanent And so you just did 70 reps at a shitty technique. What do you think it's gonna happen when it gets heavy? You're gonna default to that shitty technique and there's the conversation we should be having right that I'm using load rest car respiratory demand speed metabolic demand You know all of those competition to to create Perturbations in the the original status and I can train that up and down so you come in after like back surgery or knee surgery man I'm gonna put you on the bike I'm gonna make you breathe hard and then we're gonna do box squats air box squats Right and what am I doing to make the box what's difficult make you breathe hard? So I have all of these ways that I can control volume and intensity and demand on the athlete But if I as a coach can't see the compensation and the different patterns. Here's a good example watch people jump rope I'm like good your butt is squeezed your toes are pointed looking good double under and all of a sudden they look like a dolphin on acid Right a goat is like exploding and I'm like what the fuck is that and they're like I'm double-undering now I'm like so that's different than you're jumping because I'm I'm using jump roping to teach jumping landing mechanics Now you're valuing does the rope go around twice as the only thing that's critical to the room It's set you here, but I guess stop you here though Are you winning or are you losing the battle when you talk it like at the growth of CrossFit and the boxes that are open? Oh, no, we're winning because because You know hurting athletes is a bad business model going faster and helping PR is a great business great, right? And and people are sophisticated the world has changed, you know, I'll tell you I mean, you know, I watch Instagram and I see I don't think anyone has a has a lock on good technique You know what the only thing we should be asking about is it is a dumbbell bench press or you know We benched twice today or this week or once, you know, that's all you know Do we overload it before pressing those are the converters should we have as coaching? But you know elbow flaring, you know Everyone is beginning to see and if people can't see it It's my fault because I haven't made it clear enough that that is leading down the road of lost capacity Because and I think as long as we say hey look as long as you worked really hard and your and your blood pressure Dropped you're healthier, right as long as we use fitness thing or we call it fitness thing Right any high-intensity exercise done without sort of you know homage to technique and mechanics is fitness thing Like you just got fit and we said that that's enough or you got shredded, but your shoulders hurt I'm sorry, you know, I mean like you still that's an error. So we're gonna be 100 years old I think people are continuing to become very very sophisticated and if we haven't made it clear that jumping Landing with your arches collapse is a problem Then that's a problem in this room and we will we will get it solved and it may take longer than we thought It was treated just treated like a practice. I absolutely love that practice I think I think you you got it right, you know, did I mean, I'm sure this has been as an analogy When you were in high school, which is the last time many of us ever competed, right? There's high school athletes are so elite, you know when you're in your 40s You understand and you know, did your did your ball your coach just throw a bunch of balls on the corners Like go for it kids the scrimmage. No, it wasn't a workout It wasn't necessarily to work out it was to learn how to play to get better And we did we did lifting and conditioning so that we could do what play better. That's right Right, so that's why we did that right and of course my tenants were getting stronger and I see more powerful and da-da-da But why it was all to support the sport and what I one of the things that I think we I want people to keep doing is when was the last time you actually went outside and expressed your fitness because just like Olympic lifting or pop or barbell lifting can influence unduly influence the way we view training and that what we should be valuing is in terms of Skills and positions and competencies. I think the same thing is happening in sort of fitnessing We see a lot of programming done where it takes four hours to do your straight arm lever program or your gymnastics, right? And you literally you haven't been outside you haven't done a sport But you can walk on hands down like a motherfucker, right? And meanwhile, I'm like well not a single one of the Olympic athletes I know can walk on their hands, so it doesn't seem to matter if you walk on your hands or not You know and what we've done is we've once again fetishize the gym and we've lost track of why we're there body composition is a reason to go to the gym totally Getting stronger as a reason to go to the gym totally working on mechanics as reason to go to the gym totally So that you can do something else, right? Mm-hmm. Excellent. When you look at CrossFit as a whole What are the things you love about it and what are the things that you think could be better about it? who well, you know, I'll go in record saying I am not an a Emissary of CrossFit don't work for CrossFit. I licensed the name CrossFit from CrossFit for San Francisco CrossFit That's the end what I will tell you is that as an entree into a sophisticated Complex cogent strength conditioning program. It's really hard to beat was a mouthful. That is What I'll tell you at the highest levels of CrossFit. We're seeing really incredible capacities Yami Tickenin who is a he's any Tories daughter's coach. He's put more people on the podium in the CrossFit games anyone else He's a Finnish guy He's a member of the MWAT staff. He's a he's an osteopath. Brilliant. He's the most sophisticated Competent programming coach I've ever seen like he's he's the most he's the he's the coaches coach, right? So if that is coming out of this and we're able to see what the limits of capacity are Oh, by the way, you can snatch 300 and do these other things. That's really that tells us a lot Right, I think that leads breadcrumbs about what's possible, right? And then I think simultaneously though I want to ask the question if if don't confuse Excellence with CrossFit with your ability to then go translate that to an actual sport You have to go do the sport you have to go outside and play you need to learn and fitness a hundred words or less Glassman's original, you know manifesto about fitness was learn and play new sports You know, do you do that? Do you go challenge? You have these skills that you're working on Do you go challenge them? You know, and we hear those old there's an old world record like hammer throw and he's like He said the more I threw everything else better the hammer got, you know because his understanding the fluency So to the extent that I think the CrossFit was originally conceived as a really efficient way to work on all these skills And get you in and out of the gym. Remember that 55 minutes your testosterone spiked and you get out of the gym Where the fuck did that go? Because now all I see is people spending two fucking hours in the gym every single then I'm like, whoa Well, you're like you're in and out you did your session you got out and we've lost that because the gym is really fun And that's where my friends are and I can like open up my paleo meal fridge and they're right in like I can do my recovery boots there And we've given every reason for people to hang on the gym except for going out and finding out what your fitness is So can you be an elite CrossFitter and do another sport? We don't we don't see that much So we you've mentioned a few quite a few times You know movement biomechanics, but also just kind of like foundational move positions or positioning you were talking about How much of a role does the individual variants play in that and what I mean by that is zero Okay, so a perfect squat should look the same for everybody or okay. It's based on principles. Okay, right? Oh, okay, very good explain that explain Well, I mean, so let's let's take your arch for example, right? Is it okay to slam it completely collapse your arch and ankle in the bottom of the squat? Yeah, it happens sometimes, right? Yeah, I'm practicing My my feet aren't gonna explode, but it's not it's not something we should reproduce So if the only way you can squat is to destroy the sanctity of your joint arch ankle support system Then I'm gonna say hey, there's something wrong with that, you know, I don't think I like that I mean, you're telling me the only way you can squat is to have a radical lumbar reversal back and forth Where you shear back and forth, you know three or four inches of total Delta travel Tailbone tuck. I'm talking about this is your lumbar spine and you shouldn't shear it back and forth your butt wink with 500 pounds on it, right and So there's something going on there So are your femurs different than my femurs is your length of your pelvis? Yeah, but principles remain principles So absolutely timing will look different inclination of the torso look different capacities look different, but otherwise Let's take this language. Let's take this conversation and let's apply it to another thing Does everyone throw a slightly different does everyone swing the tennis racket slightly different is if it was the case We wouldn't be able to teach anyone anything There would never be a technique to learn a skill, right? The shapes look differently ultimately because how people are expressing and their training their history what's going on But I mean the size of your feet, but you know, how is it that all of the swimmers swim the same way in the Olympics? Why is that, you know, the difference is the amount of reach that they have or maybe they're their cadence, right? Some athletes turned out on the Tour de France were much lower cadence Lance Armstrong had a cadence of like 110 Right that worked for his physiology. Did it change how his has feet moved on the bike? No So we want to make sure that when we're answering questions like that, let's let's take a beat and say Are there variations? Absolutely. Do I see them as a physical therapist? Totally. You have 27 lumbar segments That's gonna be tricky, right? Your femurs are four feet long. Okay, let's give you some blocks Let's let's get let's go look at differently a squat, right? But we want to ask questions does this scale in this language? Does it apply is this this this statement hold true only in this situation? Because if it's a universalist statement, then it's probably gonna hold true across all of these other skills And it has to hold hold true of course all these other cohorts So does so turn your feet out slamming knees and great your Chinese lifter fantastic going for one one Then great. So you're saying that I should teach my 12 year old to turn her feet on slammer knees in no Oh, no, only when she squats. Okay, so if she jumps and lands she should anticipate how depth she's deep She's gonna land. Oh, but no this kettlebell swing. No, it's you know, I mean, you suddenly you start to get into this What if I have one leg, you know, and I'm and so I should turn my foot out when I do a pistol You know, I mean so the issue is oh, no, you bring your knees in just a little bit Oh collapse your arch a little bit less So we want to say does this hold true across all sports does this hold hold true across all cohorts Does this hold true and so suddenly you can start to kind of winnow down what this conversation is should there be variance in squat? Absolutely Why do some people put sumo and some people vote conventional because their body Mechanics their geometry sets them up for better success in one of those lifts. Hmm. What are what are some of these foundational positions that you What are the ones that you've identified that people need to be able to do or should or contribute to everything else? Well, you know, I Wanted to leave it open you need to basically take the body and force it to do what the body is supposed to do on a regular basis It doesn't mean all the time But a push-up, you know is really just a way of keeping your torso stiff and managing shear through the spine And then showing me that you can be into a good front rack position top of the push-up top of the bench press And express good mechanics in that press shape when that you're you're finishing that press So really it's not a push and a pull It's what the heck is going on with the shoulder shapes. What's going on with the hip shapes going with the ankle shapes So suddenly in that language. Well does rowing do the same thing? Well, yeah, I'm starting It's the same position as my as my push-up. I'm in a front rack shape except the instead of the elbow bent It's straight and I finish in that press shape, right? What's a burpee look like? So what's a dip? So suddenly you were changing some of the shapes But you can now argue where should we be putting in certain movements? You know do so I should probably go from a hang shape To an overhead shape at some point why because this is a position I'm going to see when I swim I go from a pull overhead to this hang shape Right, that's something we do but also that's a kettlebell snatch Right going from this internally rotated hang shaped overhead So as long as we think you're expressing if you ask me to come and take a look at your program For example, hey, take a look at your program What I'm going to do first is say what positions aren't Represented in your program If you never close the ankle all the way down to end range dorsiflexion and things like pistols or high step-ups on boxes I'm going to be able to see that and say hey look here's this capacity that you're missing A lot of different ways to train that let's not get into an argument about who's got the best soy sauce Let's just say that you you know, you're doing it or not and and ultimately that's the the conversation Where that's the art of coaching. Where do I start layering in these complexity movements? So, you know, one of the things that we try to do is help people sift through this So we categorize movements based on speed and sort of direction So category one movements, for example Are the brute language for every good strength conditioning program with its with its weight and gold I start from a stable position. I finish in another stable position and return to the start position, right bench press Strict pull up push up Deadlift squat handstand push up, right? You'll see that all of those things start stability and they're low speed I'm not saying they're not powerful, but just Compare the strict press to the push press. Oh, we started to add speed in there Compare the push press to the jerk suddenly I have a change of direction vector Where I go from open chain to closed chain to open chain again, right? And all of a sudden I'm starting to see more movement variability and error and high skill demand As I've added speed as I've added, you know, these these direction changes and then complexity goes up So, you know, mainly we if you asked me to create a program for 12 year old It's going to look like someone who's never lifted before right? It's going to be the same thing Can you hip hinge? Can you squat? Can you pick something up off the ground? Can you put it over your head? Can you can you control your back in space? And really that's what the programming should be striving to do and then It's up to the coach or the community to say these are the positions that we value What's some of the common knowledge that you see now in in fitness that you you think is just bullshit Like some of the stuff that people are saying like, oh This is what you should always do before you work out or this is the best movement or Are there is there anything like that now that just rubs you wrong that you just everybody considers true? I uh I'm gonna be careful here. Yeah, you know all fitness professionals are professional friends In my instagram feed recently I saw um Tia clare to me who won the crosser games who also is an olympic lifter in the olympics right? She's not a bad athlete. She's a she's a beast and she moves beautifully Like like clean 255 or something in like a clean. I just no big deal casual full clean, you know And then underneath it. I saw a skinny guy With a with a bungee on a stick doing a lunge and like a twist and I was like that says it all There's so much silly waste of time bullshit out in the world Here's a girl who literally can clean 250 and run and swim and bike and climb and do all these other things And here's a guy pretending to fitness With like, you know, five pounds of resistance on a stick doing rotations in a lunge on the beach And I was like, how do I know how do I know who you're talking about? I'm like that is the thing that's fucking killing me is that where we have sold people That things that look difficult. I believe it's hard, you know, but is that in fact Real fitness or real capacity and and what you'll see. Oh, but it's functional, man Well, you'll see is as soon as you, you know, I'll take any one of my 12 My daughter can deadlift, you know, I'm like, fuck. Yeah, of course you can deadlift She has to pick shit up all the time, but you know, I'll take Any athlete in any division one collegiate program over just because I know they're gonna be there's Someone's teaching them how to sprint Um, let me back up for a second. So Harry Mera is the greatest decathlon coach of all time. He's a good. He's a mate of ours, right? We've interviewed him. We're friends He literally has coached like more olympic gold medals in the decathlon and I'm like, hey, hey coach What is it about the decathlon? That's so amazing. He's like you have to run short and fast You have to be able to jump you have to be able to throw What are the other questions, you know, I mean like those are the fundamentals And he's like if you train kids to be able to be competent to the cathlete Under the cathalon you would build these basic capacities as human beings So are we doing that or not or have we fetishized fitness again and made it so complex? It's not that complex I mean, and I appreciate someone like dan john has said something like pick it up carry it around Put over your head next question You know and then and there's a lot of variation and it's okay to mix it up and you know And um, it's okay to be have fun in the gym, right? But if you're not squatting we're gonna have a problem if you're not lifting something off the ground Hey, we don't deadlift. We we clean great high pulse great. I'm down. That's fine. You easier on your athletes, whatever Um, you know, if you if you can't do a pull-up You probably have a hole in your fitness, right? So I really appreciate that you're so fit But you can't do a pull-up. So for example one of the things I'm a huge fan of right now is the Spartan race Right. So Amelia Boone is a is a good family friend happen to be a world champion super stub and You know, she's lean and looks like a runner And then she can deadlift and squat and and carry her weight her carcass around and jump over walls And you're like, oh Like that girls, you know has biased her training to be an aerobic, you know grayhound But she still has competence and all these things not only because it makes her fitter and stronger and faster But you have to be able to manage all that stuff And so let's at least establish some benchmarks of capacity. I don't care how much you deadlift. Do you deadlift? Yes, or no, you know And and if you don't deadlift you you swing a kettlebell. I'm like great check the box. You're still good for me You know, I'd like you to deadlift a little more You know, I just think a lot of people don't realize that it's not going to take away Because there people get so stuck in their box that Like the bodybuilder is like, well, no, no, no, I can't do I can't do these yoga positions or I can't do these kettlebell stuff because I'm not going to build I can't deadlift because I'm going to build my waist They don't realize that that they all you can take a little bit of all of them And they'll not only will they contribute to you being well-rounded But they'll probably contribute to your specialization as well because stand efforting doesn't deadlift Right? That's all the rhino does. You know, he's amazing. I mean look look at how I think You know, I think we've we forget how strong really strong people are and that, you know Like remember that old like bench press your body weight. Well, it wasn't bench press your body It was strict press your body weight. That was the old one, right? How you doing? You know, um a long time ago, I think I get Dan John is on the brain right now He's like overhead squat your body weight 10 times or a head squat your body weight plus 50 pounds Can you do that then shut the fuck up if you have work to do And then I think that overhead squatting is then they'll be all like I don't I think overhead squatting is a Is a skill transfer exercise for like warming up and for conditioning You know at some point if you're over at squaring 300 pounds like we we have other issues, right? We should be heaving snatch balance and snatching and doing some things But if you can't do that at all, you know, it doesn't mean you're not going to be an athlete It just means hey, there's there's something some develop some capacity is developed here, right? You know and uh, you know, I've talked to so many coaches, you know Even over at cal one of the old strength coaches is saying hey look I'll take a kid who can who can snatch 225 which is very reasonable snatch for a Collegiate division one athlete, you know over a kid who can you know half squat 500 pounds You know because of the athleticism and the coordination, right and the efficiency and it takes time so, you know Our job is to continue to help people sift through You know, I remember some interview with an old like russian throws coach and the guys like what should I do for conditioning? He's like well, if you don't have a hill, I don't know what to tell you You know, I mean like like you need to go sprint up the hill. That was like it's that simple You know go push a sled go drag a sled. Do you feel do you feel a little vomit? It's good. Do one more right and then tomorrow do two more and and keep it simple We can simplify way back Make progress, you know, but it is the compound movements and I think You know, you can say things like or we can do it this other way But if you we we have to look at that the original The thinking around the scientific method was induction, which means we take large data sets Sir Francis Bacon 101 we take large data sets and we derive principles and patterns out of those large data sets So let's look at the best athletes on the planet Let's look at the most successful running programs coaching programs sprinting programs Oh, they all deadlift. Oh, they all have some kind of Olympic lifting variation in there, you know I saw on on internet. So somewhere recently someone was like I think Brett Bartholomew retweeted it You know, he's like, look some coach was saying we Yeah, we hang we go from blocks. We power we snap. He's like their variations. They're not gang affiliations. Have you read his book? Brett? Yeah, oh, yeah, I just bought it. I was good. Oh, yeah. So what Brett has done is his he said Look at this group of teachers The biggest group of teachers maybe in the world Strengthing edition coaches who don't get any information about how to teach You know, it's about communication, right? And so not an accident that the best coaches out there are really inspiring Really can communicate have clear goals. They maybe have had some formal training in college Maybe maybe they stumbled into it, right? But he has really codified that and formalized that and I'm I'm so proud of what Brett's doing And more importantly Brett is about to take that program and put it online so you can teach your coaches Scalability. Oh, wow You have to do it. We need why because we should always be striving for efficiency in the system My ability to communicate to my athletes. Maybe the limiting factor He's on the list to get on the show. So that's really good That usually is the limiting factor for most people is just being able to communicate You can have all the knowledge in the world, but if you can't communicate that to someone It's absolutely it's worthless. Well, you know The allegory is that, you know The way we do one thing is the way everything, right? But I mean you should be reading in all of these other fields around You know neuroplasticity and you're reading nutrition and you're learning a behavior and and all of that is Is going to help your training and your ability to coach. I mean we I read everything else except training books I mean I read training books too because I'm like a deep nerd But I mean the idea is like there people are solving the problems to make me a more efficient athlete and coach communicator all the time You know, I just picked up the ted talks book like shoot me in the head You know, I don't want to do a ted talk. I think that's become a meme You know, my favorite ted talk is why ted talks suck You know, I was like so meta so meta But um, you know, but those are really the the essay the podcast is the new form And if you can't speak your ideas in a cogent Rational way, then you're not going to be able to communicate in the 21st century Being in fitness as long as you've had you've seen trends Come and go and things that you know, good information get just blown at a proportion What do you see? Do you have any predictions for some things to look out for like? Okay, everybody watch out for this new You know mobility trend on this or is there anything like that that you see right now? Well, you know, I think I think, you know, we're seeing a finally a normalization of you know, people doing soft tissue work and distracting Like because I was like, yeah, it takes 10 minutes a day. What are you doing? You've been doing that for 40 minutes twice a day like stop People made mobilizing a hobby, you know, and that's not where our intention was all position transfer The first, you know, half of that bug for 300 pages about movement theory The second page second is about how to get into those better positions, right? And so I think that's I think people are coming back to training, you know Bella Corolla used to let his athletes his male athletes Warm up playing indoor soccer. So it's male gymnasts. They just they just didn't like the traditional warm-up So they just played soccer and then they were hot and sweaty. Then they did their focused thing went I think putting the fun back into it, you know simplifying matters I think we're seeing a normalization of the paleo phase You know that, you know carbohydrates, you don't have to fear always, you know The fetishization the the worshiping of keto, you know, I think that's a very powerful tool You know, it's hard to have your heart rate at 170 and be totally keto all the time You know, you just can't do that carbohydrate, you know So we're getting people are starting to live low train high on carbohydrate, you know using carbohydrate as a tool again Like, okay, that makes sense You know, I I think uh, we're getting better at getting back to basics And I think unfortunately basics aren't sexy, but we've got to get sleep. We got to sleep denser You know, we've got to learn how to down regulate I think right now we're caught in this huge depressant stimulant cycling Where people are having seven bulletproof coffees and then thc or alcohol or ambient to go to sleep and it's out all in the morning And you know, I we're we're not helping people turn off. We have figured out how many Pre-exercise drinks you can take and how many, you know, red bulls you can slam to be your best self But we've done shit about, you know chilling out you know down regulating so um, you know The the tide is going to continue to rise. I think we should all be wary You know, we we have in our gym for long enough We see trends so like we have a lot of athletes who came in massive progress got really strong fit crush their sports And then kind of like I'm looking for the next thing so they go on and they're all back Because turns out coaching is the most important thing So are you in a coached environment? Yes or no and someone on their phone watching you lift is not coaching So my best my best recommendation and I think you're going to see it more and more You know, even something like peloton, right training in a group creating a small environment where you belong to people Where you show up and they know you and they know your tendencies and a coach knows you and knows your name And knows how you lift and you can make progress. That's the relationship human beings are supposed to have Have you seen that like even from the crossfit community more in-home training and more gym setups where they still Uh try and recreate that as far as like streaming video or whatever in a group setting I don't know. I haven't I haven't seen much of that, you know, it's probably it's probably, you know The real interesting thing is well, how do we how do we serve people? You know, if I can't get to the gym or I live in nowhere where there's not a gym near me Where I can olympic lift what I do, you know, so there is a need. I'm sure we've got to we've got to Again think, you know, we're not leaders. These are The ways that we're solving problems and they're probably they could help you can we we believe in the home gym You've got to have a home gym and it doesn't take many pieces of equipment to be in the home gym You know do your fancy stuff at the gym, but like god for some sake have a barbell in your garage You know and just just you know my my simple rule for my friends at home I'm like you can't lift off a rack at home. Just don't do it. So if you can't power clean it You can't front squat it You know what I mean? Because if you think that's the limiting factor to your fitness having to power clean it before your front squat it Welcome to the game. You know what I mean? And that's old school, man. You know, oh, and it sucks You know, I mean that's that's a real, you know So, you know, I think Making sure that every person Can get to a place where they have basic competency. What do you mean? You're afraid to lift a barbell We have so many people who've never lifted a barbell who come to our gym still and they're terrified But I'm like you were failed as a child. You were not loved as a child You know, I mean that's just that's just a thing, you know Like you're afraid of going up and down with this thing like, you know, that's just crazy So, you know, we're getting better We have a lot of work because what's interesting I think is we all need to continue to do this is that that expert who's listening right now who, you know A home expert not a pro an expert like, you know, they do this because they love Training they love to talk about nutrition. They love body composition. They love that stuff They're the expert and they're the node in their entire community and that all their whole family asked them about their shoulder pain And how should I eat and hey, I want to gain some weight. What do I do? You know, there's some core competencies that we all should have And it to the fact that the the matter of that we're having to train and teach Such fundamentals to so many people all over again or for the first time in their 20s and 30s Really says that we've shit the bed entirely in their development as as human beings horribly and it's getting worse, man Kelly, I want to make you take a left real quick. We before we got on here We are talking a little bit about business and I know we have a lot of entrepreneurs that Listen and I'd like to talk a little bit about You and your business and what I want to want to ask you is what are you currently struggling with right now in business? Feeding the insta social monster, you know, just You know There what we see is that you don't have to be first in business anymore Especially in the way the world works You can be 27th and just not add anything to the conversation. You can just rip people off You know, we got this You know our voodoo floss voodoo is a trademark thing was on the internet Um, you go to the amazon type can you know voodoo floss our attorney our patent attorney is like, you know Hey, this guy's using voodoo floss like great You could there's floss bands to go for but you can't use voodoo floss And so we gave this person like three months to you know Sell out your stock will be reasonable and then we call them up three months later So using voodoo floss are like well as soon as I took voodoo off the website didn't sell You know, I'm like, well, that's that sucks But it turns out there's a lot of people ripping off other people And we really do sometimes I personally struggle with the dickhead assholes who are shouting and taking people down Because you just don't feed the trolls. I mean people have said that forever You know, we always strive to point positive We like to point at the things that we love and we just if you you know all roads lead to roam But if the only way you can get attention is by throwing some tantrum shouting at someone else's methodology You're actually a lie. You're a total. It's a you're bullshit and everyone's gonna see it eventually So, you know, I think you know the number of ads I see using our stuff and claiming as their own like the couch stretch Like why do you think it's fucking called the couch stretch because I did it on my couch That's not like I inherited the couch stretch and I was like, oh, this is something that's gonna solve That's what it's fucking called the couch stretch And so people were like, yeah, we use this thing about opening the hips called the couch stretch And I'm like, where's the attribution So fitness people are ripping each other off like motherfuckers like they're pretending it's it's a separate business It's like saying well, because I'm doing with intensity. I can round my back. No, you can't round your back, right? You at some point this business has to become like every other thing show your work Show your attribution show your relationships and um, you know, I think That aside the business piece that's that's it's always business But um, you know helping ourselves streamline Simplify Recommunicate because now we have all these these pieces of data about people using our stuff for you know a decade Now means we can get rid of the things that are less effective and repackage and repurpose the things that we know are more effective So we give people better bang for the buck What are you currently doing right now that you're you're proud of that you've accomplished or that you're doing in business right now? I am happily married to my badass wife I spent a ton of time with my kids Um, no no seriously. No, that's a very fucking great statement because I mean tell you what most successful entrepreneurs have a hell of a time Well, I'll tell you you know you I'm lucky and that the first thing is that my juliet is my business partner she's an attorney and a two-time world champion, so she's a pretty good athlete right and um great dancer But she is the ceo And so she has a ceo brain like she sees things that I can't see and don't give a shit about Or didn't even know existed. I'm like, oh, that's a well. That's a good idea And um, I'm so lucky that I have that I asked for help You know she quit her law firm to take over our little fledgling business And you know the fact that it's thriving. She lets me do what I do, you know, we work together as a team You know I the fact that I'm nailing My wife doesn't sound good. I'm nailing Freudian slip right there We'll use that. Don't worry j star. I mean like I talked to a lot of friends and people are like, well, how's it working for you? What are you doing? I'm like, well, I have this girl named Juliet Maybe you've heard of her But um the fact that we run everything, you know five years ago I was on the verge of just burnout because I was traveling so much And startup phase just like everyone else's startup phase who's out there listening and right and fitness and strength conditioning is no Different than the other thing We're literally I'm like, wow, I'm not having any fun. My training sucks I don't see my friends, but I'm working like a motherfucker And I like for the first time in my life. I'm not critically poor I'm going to be able to like pay my mortgage and not stress about that. That's a real powerful thing but You know We had to hit reset because it wasn't sustainable and we said, okay Let's do this. Let's run everything through one filter. Does this get our family more time together? Yes or no because what's the point of training To spend more time in the gym What's the point of turning on a successful business and doing all the business thing and pulling on the headaches of having what? We have 27 employees Right so that we can spend more time together as a family so that I can do meaningful work So I can come and hang out with my friends like that is the goal And I don't think you can be an entrepreneur and have as much downtime in the man cave as the other guys But that's not you anyway, you know So but keep in mind what the fucking point is and the point is to be able to feed yourself in a way that Makes sense to you and your family so you can spend time with your family. So that's the most important thing but There's I have we have so much work. There's so much work got another edition of supple effort coming out, which is way Better. Oh hell. Yeah in 3.0 What we've been able to add and conceptualize I think it'll be make a lot more sense to people You know, I have two other books written already, you know, I just did it like worse. We're just laid the foundations for our third book um, you know, we we realize that we just You know because we have seen so much data and so many skill sets and so many different groups, you know And one week literally last year. I was like teaching 12, you know 112 year olds volleyball how to squat and hinge right and and move and then I was at the NFL combine You know, so that's kind of stuff is happening Which means that I get to see and I can solve problems more efficiently or or help people solve their own problems more efficiently So There's no end of work. We're not going away. You know, we're not going away Excellent man. It's it's a pleasure having you here in our facility big fan of your work all of us Shout out. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that and what you guys are doing is difficult and important I tend to underestimate sometimes because I'm busy And the only podcast I listen to the ones that my friends send you need to listen to this So I have like my my friends are like you need to listen this I listen, right? But I just don't have I the podcast daily isn't You know Tim Ferriss is a good friend, but I don't listen to him unless one of my friend Tim has called me said to listen to this or when my friends have said But it's really important. This is the magazine the news magazine of the 21st century This is how we share ideas in this conversational tone. This is how people understand It's vast important and you guys taking it on is a is a big big deal So thank you guys everyone who's podcasting out there. We appreciate you. It's a big deal Much appreciated. Check this out. Go to youtube subscribe to our youtube channel mind pump tv We post a new video every single day also check us out on instagram Mind pump media we all have personal pages mine is mind pumps out Justin is mind pump Justin and adam is mind pump adam Last thing I don't know if we're still on Kyle kingsbury, I love you That's for kingsbury right there Thank you for listening to mind pump if your goal is to build and shape your body Dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance Check out our discounted rgb super bundle at mind pump media dot com The rgb super bundle includes maps anabolic maps performance and maps aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by sal adam and Justin to systematically Transform the way your body looks feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos The rgb super bundle is like having sal adam and justin as your own personal trainers But at a fraction of the price The rgb super bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee And you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mind pump media dot com If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes And by introducing mind pump to your friends and family We thank you for your support and until next time this is mind pump