 In this episode you're going to learn why service design needs to become a more inclusive practice and how you can benefit from that. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, this is Karen Baker and you're tuned into the service design show Episode 160. Hi, my name is Mark Fontaine and welcome back to a brand new episode of the service design show. On this show we explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are those hidden and invisible things that make a difference between success and failure? All to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and our planet. Our guest in this episode is Karen Baker. Karen is the founder and president of Boathouse Inks Washington DC office. She's pursuing a doctor of design at the North Carolina State University and Karen was also the host and producer of a live weekly radio show on the intersection between business and design. The reason I'm excited to have Karen on the show today is that we're going to discuss where the recent raised awareness for designing for inclusivity is coming from and what is driving it forward. We're also going to discuss how a more inclusive service design practice is going to help you design services that are better for our communities and for your business and also at the same time, how that is going to help you to get a seat at the table where the important decisions are made. Karen shares some very practical and inspiring examples around this topic, ranging from an inclusive marathon in the metaverse to how LEGO helped the LGBTQ community to design their own vocabulary. Sometimes it can be challenging to translate topics like this into your own daily practice, but I can assure you that if you stick around till the end of this episode, you'll walk away with one simple but very powerful question that has the potential to transform how you look at your own work from now on. If you want to keep growing as a service design professional and enjoy conversations like this, make sure you subscribe to the channel and click that bell icon because we bring a new episode every week or so. That about wraps it up for the introduction. So now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Karen Baker. Welcome to the show Karen. Thank you Mark for having me. I'm excited to be here. I am as well. We're going to talk about an important topic, which I think we should be addressing more often in the community and we are. We recently had an episode on radical participatory design. I think this closely relates to that. But before we jump into that, as always, I invite the guests on the show to give a brief introduction about who they are so that we have some context. So Karen, please enlighten us. Sure. Again, thank you for having me, Mark. I'm Karen Baker and I'm Found and President of a company called Boat House Group Inc. It's a 22 year old marketing and AI tech firm that has been based in Boston. And I've been charged with opening a DC office, which I've done, and really excited to be able to bring the skills that I have. My background is in design thinking, design research, human centered design. And that is what I'm very passionate about and have been. I've used it a lot in business, which has been a place to design. I think it has not always held. It's been very tech and education based. So it's been really exciting to see the outcomes. I do a lot of work in social impact here at Boat House. So yeah, really has been a great journey in the last year. You also told me you had a podcast, a radio career one day. Yeah. What's that about? Ten years. I had a live radio shows every Friday at 11 o'clock. And it was based on design thinking and business. I would bring people together who were in the industry, who normally didn't get the platform to talk about their work, their innovations, their products, the type of impact they would make it in community. So we were live every Friday on a radio station here in Washington, DC. And yeah, it was a joy. It really was. I met amazing people over like 300 and something shows. Awesome. 300. I have a long way to go to get there. And the great thing is you already have that radio voice. So this is going to be an awesome conversation for the people who are listening to the podcast edition. Thanks, Mike. Geron, I didn't prepare you for this. I don't prepare anyone for the lightning round, but we do have a question, a fire soda lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Your goal is to answer them as quickly and as briefly as possible. Just the first thing that comes to your mind. Are you ready? Perfect. I'm ready. Okay. Let's do this. If you could work from anywhere in the world, which place would it be? Oh, that's a great question. It would be the Dominican Republic. What's always in your fridge? Bread. All right. Which book or books are you reading at this moment, if any? Oh, that's a good one. I think it's none. I think that's a first. Okay. Awesome. Next question is, what did I have? Yes. What was your very, very first job? Oh, my very first job was at an NGO that focused on homelessness, community development, and economic development. And last but not least, do you recall the moment you sort of first heard about the term service design? Oh, yeah. The first moment I heard was at SCAD, Savannah Community College of Art and Design. When I was in the design management program, we were paired up with service design students, and that's when I began to learn about service design. SCAD has been a respectable and reputable sort of factory, isn't the right word, but at least a place where a lot of service design professionals from the U.S. emerge from. Not the only place, definitely, but we know a lot of people from SCAD. Thank you for the lightning round, Karen. That's a great question. I have a bunch more we could do another 20 if you want. Let's dive into the topic of today. Hugh shared with me that you'd like to discuss design for inclusivity, inclusive design, and that's what we're going to do. I'd love to know, first of all, what does the topic mean for you? Because it means probably a lot of different things to many people. What does design for inclusivity mean for you? Yeah, that is also a great question because it does mean many things to people. I think the first thing is, initially, when I started looking at design exclusivity and exclusivity for design or designers, I looked at designers being at the table. What I realized when I really, I would start to say I was a designer, was the designers weren't at the table. And it was always kind of fighting for their place to be included within that corporate structure, particularly from a strategic standpoint. They were always thought as the end user. Like we come to them where we thought everything through and we just need them to give maybe some input, but make it look great. So it means that for me, I think that was my initial introduction into it and fighting on that end. But what has brought in for me, and I think it's been the work of being more social impact, being more concerned about marginalized and underrepresented communities and how design impacts them, that's where it's come into me, to greatness or heighten the ability to use design in that way. I do believe that design can change a whole lot. I truly believe that. So I'm also on two rides, I would say, the one to make sure designers are at the table. But then when they're at the table, understanding the knowledge that they need to bring, and the power I think that they hold to be able to impact communities that are not getting what they need when products and services are delivered to them. Both are definitely interesting avenues to explore. I'm curious, if you look back on your journey, how did you arrive at this topic? When did it become relevant for you? Can you take us through your journey? Yeah, I believe that it became most probably at school. Let me say this. When I was doing the masters of design thinking at SCAD, it really opened up for me a side that was already that it's activism, advocacy side of who I was, that I hadn't had the opportunity to do as much work in prior to coming into this space academically. And it just heightened that. It almost brought an awareness to me that this was always there. And so I then dedicated my work at the time I was owning my own company, that I would only take on clients that were impacting community, that their work was set out to do that, and that I would use design in that way. But the initial of it really was thinking from a marketing standpoint, how do we deliver the best aesthetically? How do we make sure people are invited in and want to use what we have to offer? That was really the initials of how I saw design. It was really the academic education that brought me to a place that I was like, okay, this is bigger than what I know. Design could do so much more than what I know. And I started to embrace it. And it really took a teacher too as well to say, what's your background? And I was like, yeah, initially, I went to Howard University and I got a degree in political science. He was like, makes total sense. I was like, does it? Because I had not used it in such a long time. But he was like, yeah, this is showing up for you. So it took someone to reintroduce me and see something that I hadn't seen for me to really start to take that journey. I'm really curious to learn more about it. So the political science, how did, what was the connection? How did they explain it? He explained it is, we had an exercise where we were in the process of one delivering our portfolio of what we had learned during school. But I also, we had an exercise where we were taking a tire and redesigning of the way that a tire would be used when people are in rain. And the way that, what I delivered was, I guess, different from anybody else. And he said that the way I was thinking about research, I was thinking about it from the way that it was impacting the person more than it was impacting the outcome of the whole. And he saw that being the connection. It really took me some time, Mark, to really sit down and say, wow, this whole structure politically, this, you know, how it impacts someone, the laws and regulations and things like that, which I use in this tire design, you know, as well, too. So I, you know, that's the way that he explained it to me. It was interesting. Very. I think it's awesome to see that people from many backgrounds and disciplines entering into the design space, the design field. I think it's so two things. One, it's limiting to think about the designer because in a traditional sense, it's, it's very, it's sort of a privileged thing to be the designer while anybody can contribute to a design, practice in a design space. And I already forgot what the other thing is. I had on my mind. But yeah, coming back, coming in into the design space from different backgrounds, I think, really, really helpful. One question related to this is you sort of got into interested in design for inclusivity, inclusive design. Where do you see that it's currently lacking? So what are some, what do you see around you where you think, well, would have been awesome if this was designed from a more inclusive perspective? Yeah, I think that it really goes back to designers being at the table in the very beginning. So it also goes at what you just said before about people coming from many spaces and places as designers. And when they do come to the table, particularly when you have a diverse table, and that means many, many things that that's gender, that's age, that's culture, that's experience, life experiences, there's just a stream of ideas that can be bought to the table. When I first, again, started to recognize designers not being at the table. And even where I am at Boathouse, a lot of times the designers are usually on the end. We go in strategically, we do all the research, we then give them a brief, then they walk away. And I was like, this is a bit of a gap that's happening. And so I started to bring them to the conversation in the very beginning. This is what they're sitting in on the strategy. They're understanding what the, they're at every phase of what is going on. And that has helped in the project that we're working on now, which is about a marginalized underinsured community in healthcare. And how do we change the trajectory of what is happening to them? Because otherwise, the design team, creative team, they were struggling because they didn't have that connection to why we came up with what we came up with. So we began to lose the narrative, because we became very ad focused, you know, we came very much, let's have it look this way, instead of does it actually accomplish what we're trying to do? We're trying to shift behavior, which I believe design can do. We're trying to make sure that people see this in a better light, that they're able to talk about the disease that they're actually impacted by. Those are the things that I believe can be lacking from the beginning at sitting at the table, having them part of every piece of strategy research that you do, then letting them start to deliver. So that's, that's one thing. And I think a lot of people who are listening right now will recognize this and they would want to be part of more earlier conversations. So being included from that sense. But you also mentioned the other aspect, like not including the communities, not including the end users. Something you can say about that, where do you see death slacking? Yeah, for sure. I think sometimes people are designing so fast that they forget and sometimes purposely to include the community that they're going to be serving. So part of the design justice practice that I started to use probably in the last eight months is that you include that community in the conversation before you design. You talk to them, you ask them questions, then you go back. You know, I've had people say to me, do we have time to do that? You know, that's going to slow us down. Well, if we don't, it's not going to be for them anymore. It's going to be for us. So that is the part that has to happen. And you have to prepare for that. And that in your time, you have to prepare for that. And if you think of that very much in the very beginning, then you'll have the time to do so. But people start designing, start researching, start strategizing, then they go, did you talk to anybody who is going to actually, you know, be the end user of this? And they go, no, we didn't have time to do that. Or that's not what we do. You know, and that is the problem. That's the problem. Why do you feel, at least I feel that this topic has become more, has come onto the agenda in the recent years, like it's becoming more important. I'm curious if you're also seeing the same, that it's being more addressed now and now. And if so, I'm curious, what is your theory on why now? Like, was it, I would say the problem was even bigger, maybe five or 10 years ago. So why now? What's your take on that? Very true. And that is a really good thing to talk about, I think, you know, and I attribute it to, and I agree with you, because it was a problem before. I mean, it just, even the term design, inclusive or inclusive design, you weren't hearing that, you know, at all. You weren't hearing that terminology. I think the disruption of COVID and the disparities that took place during COVID, regardless of people, where people were, regardless of you talk about black and brown communities, indigenous communities, that the light was shined on it, you know, so that it pushed it apart around globally. You know, even though I'm in the United States, of course we heard it, but you heard it globally. You heard that this isn't just where you are. This is where everyone is. You know, everyone's facing a little piece of this, some people greater than others. And then I think the conversation started to pick up more. I started to read about it more. You know, I started to see more commercial magazines or articles or, you know, radio or whatever media period. Let me say that, start to have more conversation about what was taking place and how we, as a community, could be impacted. And because I do agree that this didn't start in 2020. And you can have conversations with other designers who, you know, again, 2015, 2014, they were thinking in this way. You know, even for myself, it was 2011. I'm 2011 that I was thinking about things like this. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Absolutely. But I think the pandemic heightened it. Yeah. And in the United States, for us, Black Lives Matter made it even more. Yeah. As it goes, never waste a good crisis. That's a great quote. I hope that we need less crisis is to actually get smarter from these things. But when we do have one that let at least make the most use out of it. Yeah, I agree. You had, I think, a few very interesting examples where it sort of shows what can happen when you do design from a more inclusive mindset and inclusive perspective. Maybe we can just go over some of these stories and illustrate and hear what you find inspiring about them. So do you have a story to share with us? Yeah, one was it is interesting because an intern at Boathouse brought this story to me. And I had not, I didn't know it was happening. It's interesting because we were having a conversation because when I was talking about design inclusive or inclusivity in the metaverse, she was asking, they were asking me as, you know, we had like 50 interns and she was, they were asking me, you know, what was next? And, you know, and advertising and marketing. And I'm like the metaverse, you know, we have to start paying attention to that. And her and I met one on one. And she was like, you know, when you first said that, I was so against the metaverse and so against learning about it. And she said, so I went and checked it out. And she found this article on degree deodorant company. They had done this marathon in the metaverse for people living with disabilities. And it gave them the opportunity to be part of a marathon, whether they wanted to change their disability within the metaverse or keep their disability within metaverse. And some chose both sides. And how that was just a celebration of showing inclusivity, accessibility, you know, and how design can do that, you know, from that and how the metaverse was going to be more pointed and more direct and ensuring that it did a better job of inclusivity in the metaverse. It was really exciting to see it. You know, it was really exciting to see it had really large participation as well. And again, if you're not in that community, you wouldn't have known it had occurred, you know, and I'm not in that community. So I didn't know someone had to bring it to me. But I thought that was just a great story that had occurred. And for a deodorant company to do that, kudos to them. So I didn't know about this example either. And there are, I have so many blind spots and things to learn about. What do you feel is in this example, the thing that inspires you the most? Yeah, I think it what inspires me the most is for me, it feels like good design. But it also allows a community to be in a place where they feel that there's a safe space and a place of like, always I can think of acceptance, like I'm seeing you for who you are, you know, and if design is able to put you in a place where you feel that you're not excluded, that is what was was good for me, you know, and even to me, it also pushed the the thought process, you know, of even going to not do it a marathon where it was able body people to be in the marathon, it could have easily done that, you know, and having a marathon in the metaverse just for able body and not even thought about the fact of how people living with a disability could actually take part. But they said only people living with a disability are going to take part of that. And I think for that, that is the extra step. Super interesting. Yeah, well, we'll make sure to add a link in the show notes to to this example. Any other things that you find inspiring or interesting related to this topic? Yeah, you know, that's been it's interesting because it goes back to your question a little bit about the design inclusive and, you know, how, you know, five years ago this was happening, you know, I think that what we're seeing also the I've spent a lot of time talking about writing about the metaverse. So a lot of things are happening and showing up that are, I won't say behind closed doors, but if you're not in the space, you're not knowing that it's actually taking place. And one thing that's actually happening to is meta, which is people know Facebook, but it's now meta. They have created an immersive learning lab. And they are taking in applications now to be able to do better than what they did. I think it's Facebook to ensure that we have more diverse designers and creators in technology, not only metaverse, but also web 3.0. So they are putting out $100 million to train more designers and creators in this space. And that is their pledge to do that. So I think that that again is very exciting because if we know anything about the history of Facebook, particularly during the last couple years, they have not done well. I will say failed. So this is their thing to try to read, you know, invite, invent themselves and put themselves in a better light in how they've been doing before. So I'm really excited I'm following it very close to see what they do and that they deliver what they say they're going to deliver. So yeah. Have you related to these examples? Do you see a pattern emerging in these communities that are thinking about inclusive design? Like what are some maybe guiding principles that you see emerging from the conversations that are happening? That's a good question. I think the most guidance that I'm seeing is coming from the Design Justice Network, which is that practice that was started to be created in 2015 and they sped it up in 2020, based on what we just talked about previously. And they created principles and the principles were created out of a media center and they all, you know, spent a lot of time creating these principles and how these principles should be grounded in impacting marginalized and underrepresented communities. We're a big focus on Black, Brown and Indigenous communities. And they have been, I mean diligent, they have been diligent. One person asked me, do you think that they they'll be the watchdog? I think with manpower they could be the watchdog because the principles are simple. They're not complicated. They're not anything that even outside of the design community that could be followed. They could be followed in media and marketing and advertising and anything branding, they could be followed in that way. But I think that they have a due diligence right now. They're very charged with ensuring that they're paying attention to what is going on and trying to make sure that they insert their voice in the conversation and change some of how people practice. They're even beginning to do pedagogy. So they recently did a summit at MIT to start to bring social justice into design in higher education. That's awesome. And again, there have been already a few mentions of death here on the service design show, which is only good because I hope platforms like this help to spread the message, create awareness. And, you know, sometimes an episode resonates with one person and then the next episode resonates with somebody else. So sometimes repeating these and these messages is quite important. So thank you for bringing that up again. And I think we'll also be able to link to design justice. I think design justice something that they have a different name, right? Yeah, they said design justice. Is it member network? Yeah, the design justice network. Yeah. Well, we'll look that up. Any other examples that you've seen that do a good job from your perspective on this? Oh, yeah, there are a couple more. Actually, Lego is another one as well too. Lego last year, and maybe the year before, but I think the last year was a big, big impact. Lego did something called A to Z Awesome, in which they allowed the LBGTQ community to design their own vocabulary and terminology using Lego, which was really interesting. So they could come in, and I think it's still, you know, it occurred in June during Pride Month, and they started it then, but I don't think it's over. But they allowed them to really come in and bring the terminology that was necessary, that they wanted people to be able to recognize in regards to them as a community. I thought that that was a really great way to use something like Lego, you know, and doing so, you know, I think that they're just another company that continues to push the envelope and continues to hold true to what their corporate social responsibility is and how they continue to design. And then that was one that came up in June that I was like, this is really exciting to see. Again, purposefully with a meaning, you know, going to a community and making sure that they feel inclusive. Great, very practical, tangible examples. And it's great that these companies sort of put themselves forward as a beacon of light, and so hopefully sort of showing the way forward. What have you seen? You work with a lot of clients and stakeholders. When you try to put this topic forward, what kind of response, what is the common response you get? Because I can imagine that this isn't something that people think daily about. So when you try to address this, what do people say? That's, you know, that's another great question because it's interesting. I think now there's a more of an openness to it, right? And because I'm very purposeful about going after people who are kind of already doing the work, but they may need guidance or even a little more structure in how they strategically go about impacting the communities that they have decided to serve, their mission purpose, you know, corporate social responsibility, whichever it is. They are more open to it. So we actually took on American Diabetes Association and that was their charge. What we were able to do is really narrow down exactly what was happening. Really did dug deep research-wise. We spent like two and a half months in research before we even started with them, which, you know, they had to be open to that. Again, it goes back to how long it's going to take, you know, type of thing. And they were very open to that because what we bought to the table, they were, you know, blown away by because it was some things that had been done, some things that hadn't been done. The response that we got from doing focus groups, talking to the community, talking to the scientists, they just, you know, sometimes, I think sometimes organizations in with their credit, having the time to do that when you're constantly moving, trying to serve members and community, the time to pause and actually figure out why is this not happening? Why are we higher in rate that we need to be? Just doesn't, no one pauses. So we had the time to pause for them. And so when we bought it to them, they were excited, Mark. They were just, literally on the call when we presented it, people were shedding tears because they were like, we are finally going to be able to really make the impact that we plan to make through this particular campaign and program. Any, if you reflect on this, any ideas, what made them responsive to your proposal to approach it in this way? Yeah, that's a good question. I think we had the opportunity to pitch and I'll say this, because you know with us being so virtual lately, people take in RFPs and then they don't get the time to actually talk to anyone to say, maybe what you put on paper versus what we actually get a chance to talk to you about, we really get a chance to know who you are and understand fully how you're going to deliver this. And I'll be honest, again, talking about business world, people don't always bring design thinking into a proposal. And I brought that into that proposal and how we were going to deliver strategy from a different light. That was of interest to them. You know, they didn't know the practice completely in that way. They didn't know the methodology. So that was exciting to actually deliver this program in a different way or in a way that may have brought a different results than what is traditionally bought in marketing particular. Speaking of different things and maybe things that surprise people, I'm curious if you look at the design inclusivity movement network. What is the thing that is maybe surprising you of what you're seeing? Well, I'm going to be honest with you. I was surprised by the design justice. I was really surprised by it. And I learned about it through an article that a woman wrote and she was writing it on the metaverse very early part of this year. And I was like, design justice. I was like, this is such a great combination of terms. But I was surprised by it, you know, that people were actually going to allow social justice and design to actually come together and push this as a practice. I was surprised by it. I think I'm sometimes still surprised by the, I was surprised by the World Economic Forum meeting very early to create governance and guidance and regulation around the metaverse. We didn't do that with social media. So I was very surprised to see that they actually were going to say, we're going to sit down and look at this from an inclusive standpoint and how you all begin to design this space. So we don't have the level of disruption that we had in social media. So those right now are, that's why they are very much on my radar. I'm very much paying attention to them because those things surprise me for sure. And again, a nice leeway into a next question that I had, as you mentioned, governance around the metaverse to ensure that we don't do as much damage as we did previously. What is the thing that you feel could accelerate the adoption of this mindset and practice and philosophy? Is it things like governance, which I wouldn't say per se speed up adoption, but maybe they do. I'm curious how you feel about this? Yeah, I don't know that governance will either. We're in agreement with that. I don't know that that will do that. I really would have loved to be a fly on the wall in that conversation that was had because it was very big brands there like Sony and Lego and Microsoft and Metta and Walmart. And I was like, was anybody small there? That actually could speak to how this is going to really impact. So yeah, I don't know that governance is it either. I think that there's going to be a lot of watching and seeing on how we do this. But I think that's another thing of designers being at the table, to really help with how you govern, really communities being at the table saying this is what is we're seeing when we're taking part in it right now. And these are the things that we're concerned about. These are the things that we think may be disruptive. These are the things that we may see go the same way in which we've seen in past and technology and innovation as it has occurred as well too. So there has to be this step back. And some of you does a step down to you and I to just have a conversation with you and I. But it really is that's inclusivity too. You mentioned there were just the sort of the big players in the room. And I'm really curious about like you're open to this and I'm sure that if somebody from your company brings in an idea that is related to this, there will be a sort of welcomed with open arms. But what would you maybe if you could give some advice to people who also feel strongly motivated to put this on the agenda within their company, but maybe like senior management isn't yet as aware of responsive to these topics like any any guidance that could help here? Yeah, I mean your question is timely because it's interesting. I just had an article come out well yesterday, I guess you were saying I will say in September through Harvard Business Review to talk about exactly that question you just posed to me. And so I went through steps for people from a managerial leadership perspective and what they could do, particularly when you come from as a designer and you walk into that space and you say this is what I want to do. I think the big thing is it's an openness. You have to have an openness to want to make sure that you kind of evaluate what is going on internally. And do you have a design team with a service design design thinking creative graphic that it's sitting there and they're always in designing in a silos, you know, they're not part of the conversation that you're having. And are you going to welcome them in, you know, in that way? So one of the first things I said in the article is diversity at the table. And like I said, it's many lights that are shed on that. And you're going to have to, as a leadership standpoint, look around your table and see who's at your table, you know. And are you being inclusive? Is there equity at your table? All of that. And you have to be willing to do the, spend the time, you know, doing that when you are in leadership so that it can trickle down, you know, to those who are your directors or your managers, you know, so that they feel like, okay, we can bring this to this conversation and then we're going to see some change actually occur. That's awesome. Because you sort of done already the hard work of communicating the benefits and the value of this. So the only thing people need to do is just forward the HR article to read this. That's why I'm here. Sometimes it works. So yeah, also another resource that we'll definitely link in the show notes. One other question I had around this is what is the question that you feel people should be asking more often? What is the question that people aren't asking enough related to this topic? I think the question people aren't asking, are we delivering good design? You know, and really when you look that up, that is a term, it was developed by someone, are you following good design in that way? And then you can step back and look and say, yes, we are, we haven't been or we're missing the market times or not consistent, you know, and then start to figure out the principles, practices, methodology that I think are going to lead you to good design. I think that's what people have to ask themselves. And then they'll figure out from there, like, okay, we don't have inclusivity. We're not delivering work that's really representative of what our client is asking us to do. Internally, we need to make some changes. You know, I think those are the things that have to be done. But I think just that simple stepping back and asking that word in that phrase. That's super powerful. And I really love it. Like, there are so many ways people evaluate how their organization is performing. But I don't think a lot of organizations ask themselves, are we delivering good design? Some, some out there will and we'll be able to recognize those organizations. But I think most companies don't and developing that awareness that there is such a thing as good design, developing the vocabulary to define what is good design to us. And then how do we evaluate it? It's, it could be a very powerful sort of conversation starter. Yeah, I agree. And I'm like you, I would, that's probably a poll mark for you to take. How many people are asking themselves, are they bringing about good design? You know, maybe independent houses probably do it more than anything. You know, but like you said, bigger companies, I would be surprised. And I would really love to know that, you know, are you stepping back in your team? And it comes from the top. It's not just your design team, you know, asking that it comes from the top and leadership perspective. Are you delivering good design? And then having standards around it, good design standards, like what is your, what is your benchmark like? That's super interesting. That is, that is a question that should be asked more often. I thank you again. Thank you for bringing that up. No, no, no, no, this is great. Absolutely. I'm curious if you, if you sort of follow the trajectory of how this movement is developing, how the awareness around this topic is developing, where do we hope we'll be in, let's say three years? I think we'll still be having a conversation. So I'm going to say that. And it's not about pessimism. I just think we'll still, and I think because we need to continue to have the conversation. And it goes back to your, the quote about the crisis, because that is just human nature, that things will arise. So I think that we have to continue to have, so hopefully we'll be past this hump. And we won't be still having a conversation about things that have impacted from 2020, 2021. We will have used design in a way to kind of help solve that and move into more of a place of delivering good design. But I think if we learn the lessons from 2021, because again, this was global, this impacted everyone. And that has not often happened. Certain locations have been impacted, like the US has had a crisis or another country has had a crisis, but particularly everyone having this crisis, there's a lot to learn from 2020 and 2021. And so I think that if we're having conversations like we learned this, and this is how we'll be more prepared to be able to deal with this, if it happens again, then saying, oh, wow, we didn't learn anything from it. We walked away from it, glad we walked away from it, and that was it. And we have no practice in place. Then I think that we, again, I think that's just failure. I hope people will learn something. I do too. I do too. We need it. We need it. We must. Well, speaking about learnings and lessons, what is the thing that you maybe wish you had known five years ago about this topic? I think the tools being available to me is probably what would have been good for me. I think five years ago I was learning them, learning this. I think the tools would have been great to be able to move very small organizations forward faster. That probably would have been good for me to be able to do, to be able to have a better blueprint. When we talk about good design and really have a better blueprint, that I could have given to very small organizations to enable them to be able to be in a mode that when a crisis hit them, they would have been able to probably thrive a little more or even survive a little more. Both words could be used and not completely collapse in that light. So that thing, that's what would have been good for me five years ago. Well, I would say that maybe most of those tools weren't yet available back then. They're coming right now. I think people are very actively developing these tools, these frameworks, giving us shoulders to stand upon. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So we covered a lot of ground in this conversation. We went through your journey of how you got interested in design for inclusivity, getting designers at the table from the very start, making sure that community, not just the voice of the community, that the community is represented in the design process, design justice. We talked about good design. Okay, how would you summarize the last, I don't know, 40 minutes? This has been one of the most insightful conversations because normally the conversations are very targeted to one thing, but I think that this is a more broader conversation I've had about design as a whole. It's been amazing, really. It cites me, inspires me to go on through my day to really focus on what it means to be inclusive in design and really good design. I think it really is good design and inclusive. If you think about hierarchy, if you do that, then you'll deliver this, and I think that's what I've gotten most out of this conversation. If my head continues to be on good design, then I'll continue to deliver inclusive design. I like that. Yes, definitely. And if somebody made it all the way to this point in the conversation, what do you hope is the one thing that what is the one thing you at least hope that they will walk away with and remember maybe? Yeah, I think the biggest thing to remember is continue to strive towards being a good designer, continue to fight for your place wherever you are. Because even if I'm not there, I'm still championing you as a designer to have your place within the organization and your voice be heard. Designers' voices have to be heard. That's what I do believe. Yeah, and keep on, like you said, making yourself heard. It's just part of the work, and it will be for a very long time. Don't get discouraged and find others who are doing that as well because it gets easier when you see that more people... I wouldn't describe it as a struggle, but it can be challenging sometimes. Oh, very much so. Yeah, so I think the sum it up to is just find community, a community of designer, whether it's in your professional or you turn around and have to go outside in order to find it. Because this will ensure that you continue to go back into that space and you're able to have a voice. Yeah, awesome. It was a great conversation, Karen. I hope, like with many of the recent topics, we'll be able to address this more often. I think we're not done. We're sort of just getting started on this journey, and a lot of things will sort of develop. So thank you for addressing this and inspiring, and thank you for sharing a lot of the resources. I'll make sure to add everything in the show notes so people can continue digging into this. Thank you, Mark. This has been great. I appreciate it. I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Karen. And if you did, take a moment to leave a short comment down below with your highlight. My name is Mark Fontaine, and I want to thank you for being part of the service design community. Thanks so much for watching, and I look forward to seeing you in the next video.