 Hello, I'm Debbie Ingram, the executive director of Vermont Interfaith Action. Welcome to our live at 525 show for this month. Our topic for today is our legislative priorities. Vermont Interfaith Action is a social justice organization. We're a federation of over 70 member and affiliated congregations throughout the state and we work together to try to affect systemic change around issues like housing and corrections reform and other other social justice issues. So I'm joined today by a guest who is a pastor here in Burlington. Her name is Alyssa Jonk and Alyssa, I'll let you say more about yourself. I pretty much covers it, right? I'm Alyssa Jonk. I'm the lead pastor at the First Congregational Church. We are right there at the Head of Cherry Street by the Ben & Jerry's. That's where we are and I've been on the board. I think this is year three of VIA. Yeah, terrific. Great. Glad to be here. Well, thanks for joining me. Yeah. So as I mentioned, we're talking about our legislative priorities and we actually had the opportunity to go to the state house in Montpelier on Tuesday. Yeah. And we were able to talk to legislators of key committees and and the legislators to represent our our folks about three things. So I'll just name them and then we'll we'll discuss each one of them in turn. First, I'd like to mention what we're calling second look legislation, which is about corrections reform. It would provide the opportunity for people who've been in prison for a very long time to go before a judge to ask to go to the parole board. So it's meant to really address people who are sentenced to life without parole. So we'll talk more about that in a minute. But then our other two issues are overdose prevention centers, which is addressing folks with substance use disorders and public drug use. And then a long standing issue of ours has been around creating more affordable housing and taking care of our unhoused neighbors in homelessness. So let's let's talk about the first two or the last two first. How about that? So since you are a pastor in downtown Burlington, you have seen firsthand some of what's currently going on in the downtown area. And so could you describe for us what you observe? Well, so when I was told that I was I was hired there, I said, Oh, it's a very urban, urban congregation. And I said, it's Burlington. And, you know, I'd served churches in downtown Boston. And it turns out that the issues that are really facing Burlington really are things that we used to associate with much larger cities. And I would say homelessness and addiction, those two have really taken over a lot of the social outreach work that we do as a congregation, because those folks are living on our porch a lot of the time. You know, we have a firm no camping policy. And there are so many folks that when we come in in the morning, they're always somebody there, you know, 15 to 20 people in the summer. And you get to know them. And it's heartbreaking, you get to know their stories, you get to know their kids, you get to know how many times they've been in and out of treatment, you get to know how many times they've been so close to being able to pull themselves out and just not making it. You know, there's one, one individual that I've seen over the last four years go from, you know, having this enormous community around them where they took care of them and were called by, you know, a familial name by those folks. Now they're just like a shell and they're by themselves. And you just watch the disease take and take and take and take despite the best efforts. And it's a lot. It's, you know, what we call a lot of moral injury in our congregation, right? We see these folks and there's only so much we can do, you know. And to face that day after day, it's really gotten the congregation energized actually about trying to figure out how to do some of these more sustainable solutions, you know. Yeah, I think heart-breaking is the word, isn't it? Well, our BIA offices are at the grounds of the first Unitarian Universalist Society in Berlin, just a few blocks away from your church. And the same sort of thing has happened. Folks wanting to sleep overnight on the porches and people gathering around during the day. And of course, as people of faith, we want to help and reach out and treat them with compassion. And yet, this is not a sustainable situation for them or for us. Right, right. You know, it's not unusual for me to come into work and to find blood on the steps, right? Somebody has an injury. The xylosing has really ripped into people's bodies. You know, we now stock in our janitor closet by the front door. We stock gauze and antiseptic and antibiotic ointment just because, you know, we serve as a station where people can get cleaned, right? Like cleaned up physically. We go out every couple hours to check on people to make sure that they are still breathing. It's a remarkable situation that I didn't really expect to see really in my lifetime, the sheer quantity of it. So, you know, we, the congregation has really just jumped into this wholeheartedly and been doing a lot of research over the past year about what are some of the solutions that can help move this from just being a, you know, let's treat this one by one, each person that we see to how can we change this situation. And that's one of the things that we've been really glad to be working with you on. Yes, yes. And we are very pleased at VA that we do have a lot of leaders, volunteers who are motivated around this. So, we joined a group called Decriminalized Vermont. VA has, and there are a variety of different policies that they recommend. There's the drug alliance. Yeah, I think we're seeing on screen now more information about Decriminalized Vermont. There's a website. There are a number of organizations that are members of this coalition. And there's a lot of really good information here about how to address this horrible illness and ramifications for our cities. So, one of the things that we particularly are trying to push this legislative session is a bill that would provide funding for overdose prevention centers. Right. And, you know, we had a conversation with some of your clergy colleagues and with the policy advisor for the Decriminalized Vermont Coalition, man named Greg Gardner. And, yeah, can you just tell folks a little bit about what we discussed? Right. So, you know, we, many of us have met with several folks and Greg was really great about kind of pulling all that research we'd done together and talking about what had already been done in Vermont. You know, talking about test strips to make sure that the drugs were as safe as they can be. You know, talking about other policy changes that had happened. But then thinking about, you know, the research around OPCs, overdose prevention centers. And he really walked us through some of that. And there's a fair amount of research right from other places that this is a great way of going. And all of us around that table are facing similar situations. Right. We are downtown. We have these open public spaces. And we are serving essentially as OPCs, right, for the uninitiated. You know, I know that there are a lot of things around them that are really contentious, right, that people are really worked up about. But the reality is, if we don't have a setting like that, then my office manager has to go out once an hour to check on people, right? Or, you know, the EMTs get 12 calls a day. So, there's a way in which this is already happening, but we're not getting there in time to save the lives. And I just really appreciated Greg's passion around that and the years of research that they put into that. Yeah, thank you. You know, that's so true that, and you had mentioned before, monitoring people to make sure they're still breathing. Yeah. So, these prevention centers provide a safe, clean place where people can be monitored. And, you know, I know a lot of people wonder, you know, well, why can't people just, you know, go into treatment and why don't they want to give up this kind of life? Well, first of all, it is a disease. It's a very, very strong, powerful, fatal disease. And so, it's not easy for people just to overnight decide they want to stop this kind of drug use. And though there is hope, and when they are ready to go into treatment, they will be, if they're at an OPC, they will be in a place where people can direct them to the kind of help that they need, and they really can start their journey of recovery. Right. I mean, one of the things that addiction research recently is beginning to show is that most of the things we thought about addiction are wrong. And it's really trying to replace relationships, right? It's a bonding. In fact, there are some folks who even think we should rename it as bonding or misbonding or something. And to be able to have a place where that attachment and those relationships can form to move into sustainable long-term treatment is so important, right? Because one of the things I hear repeatedly from folks around my porch is, you know, they're not safe. They're not safe. There's a reason that they hang out at churches and in big open places, right? Because it's not safe. And the dangers are not necessarily from within their community, but from the external community too, right? People are, the vitriol is heartbreaking as a person of faith, but just as a moral person. The dehumanization is it's real, and that's actually the worst possible thing you can do for someone with addiction. It makes the disease worse. So to have a place where they can go and be recognized for their full humanity and to have a relationship building, that is what all of the research is showing is necessary to help folks. And an OPC and Overdose Prevention Center is just the best and most efficient way of doing it. It has the added benefit of saving lives. I don't have the most updated statistic, but I think in November, the Chittenden County number, we had like 53 or 54 ODs. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of, those are people. Somebody like sniffed their head when they were a baby, you know? Like somebody massaged their little toes. Those are people that we are letting die right now, right? And so I think from my community's perspective, we need to follow the research and we need to get it done. Absolutely, absolutely. And it is true that there's been a lot of work done recently on the effect of the stigma of society. And actually, we had a great presentation by Dr. Sarah Wakeman, who's the Senior Medical Director for Substance Use Disorder at Massachusetts General in Brigham. And she did a webinar that the Decriminalized Coalition sponsored. And one of the things that she said was that stigma is associated with worse mental and physical health outcomes for people who use drugs. And stigma is among the top reasons for why people don't access treatment. So yes, I mean, lots of evidence for this approach and lots of good information as you're seeing on this website. There's also another one on drug policy. The Drug Policy Alliance has some good information as well. Yeah. And just along that note, the stigma, one of the things that comes along with that is criminalization of this. I hear often, oh, well, we just need to, you know, we need to enforce the laws that are on the books, throw them into jail. Research is so clear that is the worst possible thing you could do for these people. And you just watch people be so unkind to them. And it makes me worried not just about those folks there, but about the health of Burlington as a community, right? Because if we are able to treat our neighbors that way, something's really, really wrong. And so I think there's a lot of hopes from this OPC legislation. One of them is just returning some basic respect to these neighbors. And another of it is helping other people feel safer when they're downtown, right? So so much of that comes from a fear of response, right? There's something we don't know. We don't know what to do about it. So the easiest thing for us to do is push it aside. And I really do honestly think that's where a lot of that really extreme response come from. If we criminalize it, they go away, we don't have to look at it, right? So if we can do that in a way that helps the person and that puts it in a location where other folks know that their neighbors are safe, we're helping not just the business owners, not just the folks with addiction themselves, but we're helping ourselves know that we're being good people, right? Like that we're able to be in relationship because I think that's one of the issues. You walk by somebody and there's not, it feels like there's not anything you can do. And there is, it turns out. There's some real legislation that could do some of that change and I think that would be healthy for all of us. That's right, yes. There is such a thing as a need for spiritual wholeness to be able to be in relationship with others. And to have a community where that takes place. And I feel like COVID has actually worn away a little bit at that. And I think that's, as the addiction crisis has grown, we're letting that sort of separation seep into our neighborhood relationships. And some of this policy work is actually, I think, spiritual work for all of us. Absolutely, yes. And we are very happy to report that this bill is making progress in the state house. The house passed the bill. And so now it's gone on to the Senate. So if any of you are at home and need something to do, call up your senator and make sure that they support this OPC legislation. The number is actually age 72 of the bill. And then of course the challenge will also be the governor because his party has already suggested that this is not something that they want to support. But we are hopeful that we'll have good conversations about this. And we'll bring everybody together in consensus. Right. And that's one of the things that I appreciate about VA is that we're approaching this from a perspective where we're able to have those conversations. And I believe him to be a very good person and trying to do the best. And OPCs seem counter to all the things that we were taught about addiction. But the research in the last 60 years has really upended all of that, all of it. And so I have hope, I have faith that folks can be led to the research that does exist, that there are really sustainable long-term solutions to this. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And we have ample evidence, don't we, that what we've been doing doesn't work. Exactly, doesn't work at all. So we have the counter argument as well. So let's come together. We have both research and lived experience. That's right. So we are also, the way that the VA has actually been looking at what's going on in Burlington specifically, but in other places of the state as well, is that there's kind of a nexus between this public drug use and the lack of housing and shelter for folks and public safety and policing, which we also are doing on a more local level. But in terms of what we're doing at the state, then we've now discussed the OPC bill, but we do have a lot of things going on around housing. And we know that various committees in both the House and the Senate are looking at different kinds of bills and talking about different ways to do two things. We think it's really important to increase the number of housing units, permanently affordable housing units, and then also to step in an emergency and provide shelter for people who have lost their housing for whatever reason. So what was your impression of what was going on in the state house when you went the other day? I think that there's a real, people understand the need for both of these things. Nobody wants anybody sleeping out in the cold. And the reality is I came into work last week and there was somebody on the porch in that windstorm, that horrible windstorm. They were still out on the porch. So I think that it's hard when you don't see it. It's easy to choose one or the other or to pit them on a zero-sum game. Well, we can either do the affordable units or we can do the shelter. And I see legislators really wrestling with that. How do we use these funds? And I think that there are creative ways and I think they're digging into that to try and figure out how to make both possible, both and. And I left feeling very hopeful because they were really digging into the information provided to try and figure that out. It's just, it's hard right now to, some of our research that we've done with folks seems to suggest folks feel like they have to pick one or the other just from a monetary perspective. And you can't, right? You can't not house folks that are on the street with the economic situation that we're in. It's just, it's, it's cruel. And we were doing it, right? Like we were able to do it. And when those motels closed, I mean, Washington County and Chittenden will tell you that the situation changed immediately, right? So we need both. It's possible to do both. And I think that they're working hard to find ways to do that. What was your impression of, you know, the larger picture? I only had a few small meetings. I was so grateful that they were all willing to show up and meet with us. You know, they're very accessible. So if you do want to reach out, do it. You know, they will, they will respond and it will be fine. I know that that's a scary thought for many, but please. But I only spoke with like six or seven folks, you know, a handful. You know, what was your larger impression of how that was going through? Well, they are struggling, I think, with the, the lack now of federal funds. I mean, we had dependent on federal funds for a long time. And so that slow evolution of not having that anymore, and then figuring out how, yeah, how can we sustain the things that we were able to do during COVID because of the federal funds? But they, but I've seen some really great ideas and people struggling really working hard to, to try to come up with, you know, with good things. This one bill H719, you know, we were just taking a look at all the different components of it, which includes trying to make sure that we make things a little bit easier for developers, you know, favoring multi unit developments, making it possible to not have appeals get in the way of developments that have already gone through a lot of steps. You know, there's the whole ongoing discussion about Act 250 and how we can make changes to that still honor our emphasis on our beautiful environment and protecting that, but also not make it a nightmare for people to build things that we, you know, that we really need like, like housing. So, so there, you know, there, there are a lot of good ideas going on in the building. That was what that was my impression. That was my energy too, right? There's a lot of creative thinking around that. And I think, but there's a part for us in that too, right? As, as citizens, we want affordable housing, but we don't want it near us. You know what I mean? Like, we want development developments. We want upbuilding. We want infilling. We just don't want to do it in our lot. So I think that there really need, there's a, there's a legislative priority. And there's also again, for us to take home that we have to be supportive of those things if we want them to work. So, yes, we have to, yeah, we are the community. Right, we are the community. They're following. Yeah, yeah. And we have to rally around and say, you know, well, and again, you know, some of it's based, some of the maybe prejudice, if we can use that word against this kind of housing, is based on misconceptions and misinformation. When again, when you look at, you know, the evidence, you, you see that many housing developments that are more affordable for, for folks that lower income can be built at the same kind of standards that you see in the rest of a neighborhood. They have good design standards. I know a lot of our towns are working really hard to have regulations that make sure that, you know, all those things that we value like the setbacks and the open space and, you know, are also, also pertain to affordable housing. So, yeah, we can, you know, we can do this if we work together. And you know, I think the Act 250 thing, the first time I heard that being proposed, I was like, oh, and then it's true, like any piece of legislation, right, there are unintended consequences of pieces of it. And I think one of the things we're using, we're learning about this is that it's being used to block things for reasons that have nothing to do with the original intent of Act 250, right? They're not for environmental reasons. It's really a, it's a, it's often a nimby response. I mean, to put it quite frank. Yeah, yeah, we're all familiar with that. So there are really good reasons to be looking at this. And I think it's a really creative way of approaching this, not just from a money perspective, but also from a code change that can be really be helpful. Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And of course, we're not the only place that's experiencing this. I mean, I was on the phone to one of my friends in California just the other night and there are many, many states and a lot of urban areas are going through this, these same problems. So we've obviously, as a country, we've kind of dropped the ball. So we won't go into all of that, but here we can make some changes. And then I do want to just, again, just reiterate that we also are, I think it's very important to make sure that we have emergency shelter. That's the thing. We can't lose the sight of the people who are already outside. Right? Yes, we want to keep people from going outside. Absolutely essential. There are creative ways to make that happen. And once they're outside, friends, we have to take care of them. It's not okay. It's not okay. It really is not. And just saying, well, we can hand out tents or we can let people park their cars overnight in a parking lot. And those are actually some of the things that have been discussed. And I think people lose sight of the fact that many of these folks are kids. Right? We're not, we have an image in our head of who is homeless or who is housing insecure. And some of that is true, but some of it is kids. Can you imagine trying to get your kid ready for school from a parking lot? You know, like it's just, it's, we're better than that. Yeah, yes. And we are better than that, exactly. You can do it. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. So the last piece of legislation that we are focusing on is a bill that's not quite as well known, but it came to Vermont from a national organization called the Sentencing Project. And even though there has been a lot of, you know, publicity over the last maybe decade or so about people who are incarcerated, maybe they're given heavier sentences because of their, their race or because of some, you know, their income level. And, you know, this is something that people of faith, I think it's something that we, we are picking up on because this bill is called second look bill. And, you know, we, some of us have been talking about the fact that it's, it's great that Vermont does not have the death penalty and we think that is very important to be humane and to not have the state condone killing. You know, you're just as bad as the people that have committed the murders if you, if that's part of your, your institutional solution. So we're glad that we have that in place, but, but if, when you begin to think about the idea of a life sentence without the possibility of parole, that also, I mean that, that doesn't speak well to our, to our sense of community or our society or our spiritual wholeness either. Or justice, right? Like there's so many things we're learning about how sentences are decided and handed out that haven't been what we would hope to be equitable, right, particularly in racial senses. So I think it's really important for us to be thinking about this. And it's also just, can you imagine how much change somebody goes through in their lifetime? I, you know, on a cellular level, we are not the same, right? As we were 20 years ago. So there's just a basic human decency to this. I know when I was in Boston, I worked with a prison ministry organization where BU had set up a program where people could go through college while they were incarcerated. I mean, and the difference that that opens up for someone, I mean, it's, it's life changing and to not honor that or provide the opportunity to honor that or evaluate whether that should be honored. You know, like that, that's just the basic evaluation is basic decency again. Yes, right, right, right. Definitely. And, you know, and all of our faith traditions speak to forgiveness and mercy. They talk about redemption the power of change that you're talking about. We are not our worst act. That's right, exactly. We are not our worst act. There would be no, there would be no spiritual life if we were all perfect, right? Like there wouldn't be, we'd already be spiritually attained beings. And as a, as a Christian, you know, the worst sin, Martin, was it? It's often said, we'll put it that way. I'm not going to attribute and get it wrong. That the worst sin is thinking you don't have sin, right? I'm pretty sure it was King because I came across this quote in research for sermons on Sunday, but we all have that inside of us, right? And, and the worst thing is to think, well, I could never do that. So, you know, they must be different from me. Right. So we are compelled to go forward with an idea that the change is possible. Otherwise, what's the point? Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So, so that's our final piece of legislation, this second look bill. And, and it does put, we also have to say though that we do respect the rights and the, and the trauma that has happened to people who've been victimized by crime or who, who are family members who've lost loved ones because of violent crime. And so we want to respect them very much. And this bill makes it, it puts up some guardrails. It doesn't make it an easy process. And it's certainly not automatic at all for somebody to be let out of prison after having committed a heinous crime. Right. It's not just a blessing like great, you're good, go. No, not at all, yes. It's just the idea that change is possible, right? That's right. And, and they have to go before a judge and then the judge has to rule whether they can even talk to the parole board. So, right. Yes. So, all right. So those are our three, our three bills, are our three issues really, overdose prevention centers, housing and homelessness, and this second look legislation. And I think we've done a good job of talking about how they, those all correspond to faith values and not, and certainly not just Christian values, but Muslim values. And community values, right? That's right. And yes, and yes, definitely. So please take a look at our website. If you want more information, we're always happy to have, you can be an individual and join VIA also. We do have congregational members, but we're always happy to have individuals join too. And we hope that you'll join us in this work. So thank you very much for watching. Thanks for being with me, Alyssa. Thanks for having me. And we'll see you next time. Thanks for the work.