 The military series is brought to you by Microgains and Dominion Strength. You know, both are longtime friends and sponsors of the BarbaLogic podcast. Both companies are true small businesses, American-owned, and 100% of all their products are made here in the United States. For the finest quality fractional plates, visit microgains.com. That's with the Zee, microgains with the Zee.com. And for the highest quality leather belts, artisanal, handcrafted, but heavy duty belts, all with a lifetime warranty, go to dominionstrengthraining.com. Both use discount code LOGIC for a significant discount off their products, exclusively for BarbaLogic listeners. Welcome, everyone, to the BarbaLogic military series. I'm your host, Nikki Sims, along with host Matt Reynolds. Before we begin, we'd like to say that the views expressed in this series do not necessarily represent those of the Department of Defense or the United States government. Welcome to the BarbaLogic podcast. This is Matt Reynolds, and I'm here again with our good friend, Colonel Scott Conway, Colonel of the Marines. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. It's good to be back. We want to talk today. I know something about you're really passionate about is the ideas of leadership and resilience. And I think first off, you know, everyone that's listening to this military series has heard your story now, but briefly fill us in again just a little bit on your path to leadership, path to Colonel, your kind of promotions over the course of the years in the Marines and what that's been like. So we won't bring in the fitness aspect of it yet. Let's talk just a little bit about your path to leadership and what that looked like for you. And then we'll start to pull out some truths that you've learned along the way. Okay. So I am a native son of Baltimore, Maryland. Naval Academy is right down the street in Annapolis, Maryland. And I watched my brother go through and went to a relatively small high school and did average things there. But I managed to get into the Naval Academy prep school. So I was on the five-year program. Took me just a little bit longer. But I'm a 93 graduate of the Naval Academy. I was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps in 1993. And, you know, from there, I've held a wide variety of billets, both in the operational forces. I worked at officer candidate school, which was a tremendous opportunity for about three years. I've got two combat tours in Iraq, two combat tours in Afghanistan. I did two years over in Okinawa working government and external affairs, which was probably the most challenging job. We can get into that later if you would like. Or just leave it alone. I'm okay with either one. And then I also commanded both as a lieutenant colonel in the aviation unit. It was an aviation ground support. And then I commanded again as a colonel 2017 to 2019. So it's been a pretty wild ride over the last 20, almost 28 years, but it has been worth it every step of the way. You got in what year again? Would you say 93? So I graduated high school in 88. And that's when I went to the Naval Academy prep school up in Newport, Rhode Island. So the prep school, is that like a second senior year or was that your senior year? No, so my senior year in high school was 88. And the prep school is made for people who need just a little bit more. It's like, you know, warming up before a workout. Sure. 050. I need to warm up before college. Yeah, that makes sense. And so that entire process was five years long. So 88 to 93. That's when you graduated from the Naval Academy. And so one one year in Newport, and then I went down to Annapolis, Maryland in 89 and then graduated from there in 93. So one year old. Let's talk about that. Okay. Well, there's a part of this that I think is actually sort of yes, funny, but important is that it takes a long time to really walk through enough life and enough wisdom and enough tours and to be able to gain that leadership experience and get those promotions. We're not talking to a 27 year old kid about leadership and resilience in the military. Like there's a reason we're talking to a guy who's got some age on him. Thank you for calling me old. I do appreciate that. Well, you're older than me. So fair enough. When you're running my company and I'm like older than everybody else by 10 years, it's nice to talk to somebody that's older than myself. I know you're paying. Trust me. The longer you stay in, the fewer and fewer peers you have. So but no, the jobs that I hold today and the one that I just left down in North Carolina, you know, they are jobs that I would not have been capable doing in 93, 97, even, you know, 2005. It's just, it's a cumulative experience. Yeah, that makes sense. It's interesting for me. You know, I really started as a strength coach and then owned a gym and thought that I sort of knew what leadership was and I had no clue what leadership was. And as time has gone on and the company has grown we're a corporation and I'm more of a CEO. I really enjoy that aspect. That's really what brings me joy. I still love to coach, but the leadership piece of this is actually the thing that is the most challenging to me and therefore the most fun. I mean, I take it really serious and in talking to you, I get the feeling it's the same thing. There was a challenge there for you to continue to be a better leader over the years. Is that fair? Absolutely. And you know, you have to realize very early on if you're going to accomplish any success in the Marine Corps, the rule number one is it's not about you. It's never about you. Sure. It's all about your people. It's about the mission. You know, we say mission first Marines always. So it's leadership and it's ironic that you said that way because we actually have a Marine Corps warfighting publication that says leadership is a sacred responsibility and a tremendously rewarding experience. It is the most serious thing that we do. Yes. In the Marine Corps and in any branch of service for that matter. So let's go back to one of the early promotions that you had. Is there one that sticks out in your mind is being like this was either a unexpected or B it took a tremendous it felt like I was overcoming a tremendous hurdle in one of these early promotions. Can you think back? I know that's way back there like the Reagan administration and whatnot but in those early years what was one of the first big ones that sticks out to you? So I mean obviously commissioning that's the biggest deal. I spent five years in two different locations, you know, overcoming academic challenges, overcoming physical challenges, overcoming, you know, all of the frustrations and the joys that come with going through college. But you know, it's the Naval Academy. So it's kind of like not college. Sure. But you know, for me, I cannot imagine any other path. So commissioning was the day that I will never forget when I was commissioned a second lieutenant but when you are a junior officer that more of a Navy term but you know junior officers but when you're a second lieutenant and a first lieutenant there is you're really on the learning side of things. Your job is the lowest ranking officer but yet almost the biggest amount of responsibility because not only do you have to execute your missions you have to learn about everything that makes you a subject matter expert. Nobody cares where you went to school. Nobody cares what you did before. All they care about is what you do when you're there in the moment. But there's a way that people that some Marines they look at second lieutenants and first lieutenants. It's like, okay, well you're still not trying out for the team because you're commissioned officer in the Marine Corps and that's a tremendous honor. But when you get promoted to captain you're sitting at the table, you know, you go from, you know, even just the rank and sign. It's not that single bar anymore. It's the railroad tracks. But when you're promoted to captain there's just something about it that you know you can it doesn't matter if you just pinned it on or if you're getting ready to pin on major you just it feels good to walk around as a captain. And for me that coincided with the time frame that I had one of my most rewarding jobs which was officer candidate school where I was helping pick future leaders in the Marine Corps. So I have to say that that was probably my favorite promotion and the favorite job that I've had. I mean, they're all great. It's like picking a favorite child. You know, they're all great but that one stands out sort of above all the others. So if we go to that you have a pretty big responsibility at that point of seeing non-officers and seeing the cream rice to the top. What was that leadership position like? What were you looking for and what made somebody stand out and what were some of the lessons learned there where you're effectively I think helping someone down a new path a better path for them to be able to make them an officer. And you're talking about specifically about officer candidate school, right? Yeah, when you were there and you were now you've got all these I don't know, you've got these Marines quote unquote kids. I mean, they're younger right in general and you're seeing who are the ones that are sticking out like what are some of those lessons learned where you could see that I mean at this point you've got how many people underneath you as captain. So as a platoon commander at officer candidate school the platoons were generally 50. Okay. So I had 50 candidates in a company that was anywhere from 150 to 250 depending on the cycle of the year. Okay. So at the time they're called candidates not to get too technical but there are some prior enlisted Marines that come through but when they come to officer candidate school they're candidates because they're a candidate to become an officer of Marines a second lieutenant of Marines and depending again on the specific program that you come in it is either a six week period or a 10 week period that they're there that we have to train evaluate and screen them for future potential as leaders in the Marine Corps it is sensory overload because we have our drill instructors you know the same drill instructors that are in Parris Island and Marine Corps recruiting Depot San Diego they also come to Quantico where the school is and they are very effective at their job and their job is to create a chaotic and uncertain environment and I don't want to say that the system is designed to push people to failure because that sounds intentional and that's not what it is the system is designed to basically teach the candidates enough to evaluate them and place them in chaotic and uncertain environments and see how they react it is inevitable that people are going to fail while they're there it just it is the way it happens it may come on everyone everyone someone's going to every single person is going to fail and I don't necessarily mean like you're going to fail a test or you're going to fail a physical fitness test or an academic test what I'm saying is you are going to make a mistake you know some people make bigger mistakes than others and it may come on training day one it may come on training day 42 you know it just it's uncertain when it's going to happen what I tried to do was I didn't care about the failure because it was going to happen to everyone I wanted to see now what so you candidate Reynolds have just failed what are you going to do because to me that is a better measure of an individual and their leadership potential than the failure that put them in that situation in the first place so because you're trying to see and identify if these candidates have what it takes to be a leader an officer how much teaching slash coaching were you doing with the candidates versus just observing and sort of letting people fail and see if they could do this on their own how much help is there from their leadership from their officers so there's a very special relationship that candidates and any former candidates going to laugh when I say that there's a very special relationship between candidates and their drill instructors whether it's you know the platoon sergeant the sergeant instructor the different ranks that and there's usually three three drill instructors per platoon and then you've got the platoon commander so that's the staff right there there's four people there is an entire academic section that teach the material the classroom instruction and everything and then there are other organizations in the school that are designed to help you out with the logistic support of your field training exercises etc. So I mean there's a tremendous support network the job of the drill instructors and the platoon commander there's almost sort of a inversely proportional relationship at the very beginning the platoon commander kind of sits back and watches because what I'm doing is I'm looking for all those reactions I'm looking for how people respond in the face of adversity as the program goes on the platoon commander gets a little bit more involved so the motto of the school is ductus exemplo which latin for leadership by example so my job as a platoon commander is to set the example that the candidates eventually want to work towards and hopefully become someday how hard was it to live up to those standards how tough were those standards you're always on yeah it doesn't matter if you are just driving onto the grounds of officer candidate school or if you're driving away but if you're at OCS you're in the game and doesn't matter what section you're in you could be in the logistic section but if you're walking around and you're wearing that uniform and you're wearing the rank on the uniform you're always on so the pressure to set that example was I don't want to say it was difficult because I mean we're always doing that as Marines you know we're always trying to lead by example sure but when you've got 50 officer candidates watching every move you may think that you're just in the back of the classroom while they're being instructed but there are eyes on so and that's just you know from walking around when it came time for you know the physical training sessions you know it's not enough for me just to get out there and survive I had to be out there and thrive lead the pack absolutely and did most of those other officers I assume the answer would be yes did they attack it the same way you did I mean is that pretty much part of the culture there is that the instructors are like look we have to lead the pack we have to be leaders we have to be on 100% of the time is that very common or can you even see a fair amount of delineation among the leadership there at a place like OCS no so I mean there's like I said it's never about you it's always about the Marines and there was really nothing special about me because it was a shared mentality and all of my peers that were there all the fellow platoon commanders the men and women that led these officer candidates we all had the same approach we wanted to put our best foot forward because we wanted to show those candidates this is what it takes you know if you want to come you know work with us this is what it takes if you want the honor to lead our Marines you had best be at the top of your game so now obviously within the school the school picks who they want in the training companies if somebody were to show up at the school that they didn't necessarily feel they wanted to put out in front they wouldn't do that but that I mean I can't remember a scenario where that was the case sure so when you go there there are some written and unwritten things that you know that you're expected to get bigger faster stronger and like the motto is lead by example perform absolutely yeah so it's interesting and for me having no military background experience I'm always trying to tie it back to how similar is it to leadership in the business world or and I recognize that the culture is different but what it really still comes down to it feels like is that there are all these actions that the candidates have to do perform physical fitness stuff academic stuff that you know all this stuff but ultimately it's about the culture it's about the buy-in it's about this is who we are and you're trying to see if these candidates are a fit for the culture I mean ultimately isn't that what we're trying to do here it is the Marine Corps is unique in the services and of course I'm going to say that because I've been one for 28 years but the Marine Corps has one standard you know we don't bend the standards we don't lower the standards we publish the standards and then our job is to meet them and strive to exceed them and you know we do recruit but more often than not it's just the mentality of people that are drawn to the Marine Corps it's like okay that's the standard but what's the best sure because I don't just want to meet the standard I want to be the best in what it is that I'm doing and what we are trying to do and and like I said there's one standard in the Marine Corps and that we enforce and that's the Marine Corps standard so when we are working at Officer Candidate School when we're picking those future leaders you know we're looking for people did they meet the standards yes and then we obviously rank them as far as who exceeded and how well they did we teach them our leadership traits and principles and you know the school is not to pick the best second lieutenant it's to pick someone who has the potential to be a great second lieutenant sure so everyone that graduates OCS graduates as a second lieutenant is that correct some people don't take the commission right some people finish OCS and they get their certificate of completion and they say thank you no thank you we thank them for their time for sticking out the program but generally speaking if you are at OCS and you complete the program successfully they go on to be second lieutenants and what percentage of the candidates actually complete the program is it a fairly high percentage or is it you know that's going to vary from platoon to platoon and there is no quota sure I can tell you that for sure if I had a platoon of 50 and I graduated 50 as long as they met the standards the Marine Corps would say great if I had a platoon of 50 and 34 of them graduated because 34 of them met the standards the Marine Corps would say great so generally speaking like I said it's not designed for people to fail sure it is designed to evaluate if they have what it takes to meet the standards sure yeah I guess let me ask a more leading question you don't certainly don't we want to always be careful to you know not call out anybody specific and keep people anonymous here that you've worked with but can you think of a time where you did see somebody and they weren't a fit they weren't a match and you had to sit down or somebody had to sit down and have that awkward conversation that said this is not in the cards for you what does that look like so I wasn't the commanding officer of the school I didn't I didn't have the final voting authority but I did have plenty of counseling sessions but instead of saying you don't have what it takes what we tried to do was say here are the areas where you're falling short here are the areas that we think you need improvement and here are the steps we think you need to take to achieve that level of improvement in order to meet the requirements sure and some people you know some people failed academically some people couldn't meet the physical standards and OCS is very difficult from a physical performance perspective and I don't just mean like out on a physical fitness test but it's just event after event after event sure it's very easy to get worn down and when you're physically worn down you're not as mentally sharp as you would have been had you been well rested to be well tested so but like I said they could either fall short academically they could fall short physically or they could just decide this isn't for me and they could drop on their own request sure makes sense and I thanked them you know there were no hard feelings they came they gave it their best and we were working from five o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night with these candidates I knew everything about them sure and I could see who was phoning it in and who was really trying you said sometimes that was six weeks sometimes it was 10 what identified or what made it one or the other okay so if somebody who goes through Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps program so they are going through going to a college kind of like the job that I'm in right now where they're in the NROTC program where they're getting a lot of those classes they're getting a lot of that training okay they don't need a full 10 week experience got it whereas somebody that may have graduated from a college that has no military experience they would go through a 10 week program got it and this is OCS I apologize for being ignorant in this this is boot camp or basic but on another level on steroids basically because it's for officers specifically or no that is a very great question and a difficult one to ask okay so when Marines graduate from boot camp they graduate as basically trained Marines hence the term basic training when officer candidates graduate from officer candidate school they graduate as second lieutenants and in the Marine Corps we send them on to an additional school which is called the basic school oh and so we have a saying in the Marine Corps every Marine or rifleman and for our officers it doesn't matter if you're a pilot if you're a logistician or if you're an infantry officer every officer is a platoon commander so basically at the basic school you no pun intended you learn how to be that infantry platoon commander sure and there's a lot of other things that the school covers it's anywhere from six to eight months depending on what time of year you go through the school so okay that makes sense so OCS you'll have people that'll come through OCS that don't have any experience military experience came out of college or whatever and they go through the 10 week OCS and then after OCS actually go back and do the basic the basic school yes and learn the foundational art of being a soldier yes essentially an infantryman so I mean we've had Marines that are prior enlisted that came from you know one day they were gunnery sergeant Conway and then they go to officer candidate school they graduate from officer candidate school they're in a second lieutenant Conway by the way I was not a gunnery sergeant and I apologize if anyone thinks that I was saying that you know they were a gunnery sergeant before they went through OCS they became second lieutenant and then they went to the basic school where they learned the very fundamental aspects of being a second lieutenant and then they go on to their specialty school where they learn how to become a logistics officer or okay flight school or infantry officers course okay so I want to take the next step forward for you on the leadership timeline really and can you identify a place specifically when you were still here in the States that was a challenging but potentially rewarding leadership position that you had and what were some of the lessons that you learned there post OCS right but and I definitely want to talk a little bit about your tours for sure because I'm sure there were a tremendous amount of lessons that could be learned there as well but can you pull out a couple of those big picture leadership lessons from when you were still here I mean literally I have stories for days as does any marine because there's only one thing we like to talk about more than being a marine it's working with Marines so I was very fortunate to be selected as the commanding officer for that aviation ground support command I was a lieutenant colonel and we had approximately 500 ballpark Marines and sailors so I had both Marines and sailors in the command and this I mean this is varsity stuff here so you are the commanding officer before I was a platoon commander at officer candidate school and then I worked my way up to company executive officer so I was second in command of the company now I am the commanding officer as a lieutenant colonel of you know like I said 500 Marines and sailors and I am responsible for everything that the command does or fails to do and that means when those Marines distinguish themselves in a good way you know I pushed all the credit to them when the Marines and sailors distinguish themselves in a negative way I assumed all that responsibility on myself so Eisenhower method right absolutely praise and public reprimand and private that's right what were some of the biggest challenges that you had there I mean can you be specific enough can you think of a time that it was like man this was hard this was I'm not sure that I was ready for this or there were times that you had to really like you were stressed about I mean there have to be some times as leadership especially when you've got this many guys who have dedicated their careers and again it's not just a career right you're not just doing this for a paycheck to buy groceries for your family you are representing right the United States of America and so if there's a whole another level of gravity to it can you think of a time that's like man this was this was tough but in the end was rewarding yes so I took command right after that unit had returned from about seven months in Afghanistan so as is often the case when units come back there is you know an order cycle that happens you know and every year the Marine Corps about a third of the Marine Corps moving you know changing jobs etc. so I took command and in my job I had it for two years and they had just come back from Afghanistan so those who stayed in the command after that deployment you know there's a sense of camaraderie and a connection to their former commanding officer who they went to combat with and then there were the new Marines and sailors that rotated in like me did not have that same camaraderie so at the same time there were a couple of things that were going on there were some investigations you know lost and missing equipment and all of the administration had to be wrapped up from things that happened at home station because not everybody went over to Afghanistan there was a small element that stayed back we're wrapping up administration from that group of people as well as you know getting everything resolved from the people who were coming back so it was a big lots of change let's just summarize it that way so I had to establish credibility immediately and I couldn't do it as anything resembling the former commanding officer because that would have been disingenuous and at the time I was still think about it this was in 2010 so I was a lieutenant colonel I'd been doing it since 1993 you think I knew a thing or two about a thing or two I was really still trying to figure some things out like how am I going to command so in my search for establishing rapport and establishing myself as a leader and representing these Marines and sailors there was some growing pains that took place because they were getting used to me I was getting used to them and one of the things that I think finally brought us together ironically enough since we're here talking about working out was working out and the program of physical training and prior to that in the intro some of this was covered prior to that you know I was an endurance athlete and I had maintained a perfect physical fitness test score you know three mile run in under 18 minutes 20 pull-ups and 100 crunches in two minutes I had maintained perfect scores the whole time and it this was where things were starting to hurt how old were you here at this point this 2010 so I was 40 okay yeah infamous that age and I remember very distinctly this one physical fitness test and it was you know I'm coming on the last part of the three mile run and one of my corporals I still remember him to this day we were kind of running ish side-by-side and that used to be where I wanted to be because that's when I got in someone's head because I you know I wanted to win sort of that drive I just want to be with the best I want to be the best but he started pulling ahead and I couldn't catch him and he just kept getting further and further and it didn't matter what I did I couldn't catch him so I lost a little bit of my identity as being you know the fastest because he didn't just beat me he destroyed me and I think for me it was okay I've started building this rapport with the command because I'm physically fit but now it's starting to hurt a lot more I can't necessarily sustain that but I was able and not to cut to the end of the story but I think over time you know we incorporated a lot of morale building things and I think Marines are unique in that shared misery increases morale yeah you know we did some field training exercises we were given an opportunity to go to the Western Caribbean and do some pretty cool operational stuff on a amphibious ship and I got to take about 300 Marines and sailors on board a ship and do some counter-drug counter-narco-terrorism stuff and it was phenomenal the way that we came together as a team towards the very end and when I ironically enough when I was doing my turnover with my replacement as a commanding officer I said you know two years into this job I think I just about am getting to the point where I'm comfortable doing it yeah and it's time for me to give it up and is that when well let me back up for a second so in that process you started to really I think even in what you just said sort of grasp what being a leader look like what being a successful leader in the Marines look like and again that's probably not trying to put that on you specifically this is why you're awesome but more of what when you think of an effective leader in the military what are those things you said lead by example is that the most important thing like what are those things that you start to think about like that's made you a good leader if we're going to assume that you are and also the other leaders that you've had over the years you go like this was incredible about this person that really made them a great leader so just a real quick distinction because I don't want anyone who's listening to this to think the only leaders in the Marine Corps are commanders we kind of joke that if two privates are walking down the street one of them's got to be in charge that's right so the title I had was commanding officer anybody in the Marine Corps can be a leader it's situationally dependent it's all about context time place and circumstance so it doesn't matter if you're a corporal if you're a gunnery sergeant second lieutenant or you know even a you know our Lance corporals there are some phenomenal leaders at all levels in the Marine Corps when I was in command of that unit that was the first time I mean I sort of been in leadership positions before but this was the first time I had the Marine Corps designated title of commanding officer so when you look at a Marine as a leader you know we have like I said before 14 leadership traits and 11 leadership principles and and for me you know it's difficult to say you know which one's the most important because they're all important do I want to have less knowledge or do I want to have less decisiveness you know I was going to say what are some you don't have to name all 14 but just for people who are listening that aren't familiar what are a handful of those that are to give us an idea what those look like any Marine listening to this is going to laugh when I say JJ did tie buckle right that's how you remember it that's our memory aid for our leadership traits so justice judgment dependability initiative decisiveness tact integrity enthusiasm bearing unselfishness courage knowledge loyalty and endurance that's JJ did tie buckle so these are core values that's what they are I mean again it comes back to culture right our core values it's much simpler there's only three of them honor courage and commitment okay yes so you know those three are sort of the foundation that you know leadership the other 14 stem from really exactly exactly so and the leadership principles you know I called out number five set the example and that has been something that I've taken to heart throughout my entire career so but really what it comes down to is trust so it's not one of the 14 leadership traits trust but if I don't establish trustworthiness as a leader whether I was second Lieutenant Conway or Colonel Conway no one's going to follow me so I have to use all of the tools in the tool bag and I have to specify my approach with each individual within the command because not everybody's going to respond the same way that's right you're not going to build trust with each individual soldier in the same specific bucket right like it's different like what buys that trust or what builds that trust with each individual soldier is going to be very different right and there is a difference between soldiers and Marines by the way I'm sorry my vernacular is off that's for all Marines it's interesting to hear again I connect this so much to what you're trying to do is help people be part of that culture and I think if you hear those 14 leadership traits I mean who wouldn't want those things what business wouldn't want that out of their employees absolutely but like these are inarguable as being something that's extremely important and things that we should all strive for whether we are Marines or soldiers or lay people right the Marine Corps does not have a corner on the market of judgment and decisiveness intact it just we've packaged them in 14 leadership traits and principles with the very fancy memory AJJ did Ty Buckle the Army does the same thing Air Force and Space Force they have their version of this and I would venture to say that General Electric has a version of that's right of their leadership traits so whether it's their mission their vision or their guiding principles yep I mean same for us it was one of the things that from the very beginning that if you go back and talk to people like Nikki Sims or Andrew Jackson or people that have been with us or on leadership now at Barba Logic one of the things I think they've communicated to me is that our what we called our core values which is really more like the 14 things it was a list of 10 major things that we were striving to be and that in times that we had to make really hard decisions about you know maybe about making a little more money or about who we really were we were able to come back to those basic 10 at 10 things and say is this who we are and if the answer was no then we didn't do it so you know even one of those things we constantly strive to choose rightly to do the right thing whether it was best for us or not or best for our pocketbook or not best for the account or not and there were lots of times that we had to choose rightly because it was right not because it specifically put money in the bank account of the business and there's tons of carry over there I'm sure I couldn't agree more you know we try to be as leaders in the Marine Corps and I'm going to throw that out so everyone is involved all every single Marine past present and future we are firm we are fair and we strive to be consistent and I think anybody would respond to that because that's what develops the trust there's some amount of predictability and some amount of comfort that you can have with somebody who is firm fair and consistent Yeah it's the way you should parent your kids Absolutely and it's not that you're looking at Marines like your children but it's that's how you build trust even with your kids I mean one of the things that I have a daughter that's about to be 16 so everyone pray for me so she's driving you know and ready to get a license but she told me about a year ago six months ago somewhere in there she said you know she said we were talking about our relationship and you know how things were going and she said you know she said you're tough you're hard to please but she said you know what I really like is that you always have a reason for why you ask something of me I never one of the things that really bothered me about my own about my dad and my parents is that I often would get that they would tell me to do something or punish me or whatever I would say why like like a rebellious kid does Because I said so Yeah because I said so because I'm the emperor because I'm your dad and that's true it's actually it's not that that's not true but I didn't feel like there was a major lesson to be learned there for me I wanted to understand was their logic in the decision and I think when you build trust over time I don't have to tell my kids every time now because they know that I think greatly about every decision I make including parenting and so that when I ask something of them sometimes they say why and I'll tell them like this is the logical reason I'm asking you to do this but now that trust is built they often don't even ask me anymore because they know that dad has a reason for the thing right I have so many things stacked up in my head as a result of that and that's such a phenomenal parenting example you can get away with because I said so exactly one time right and then that round has left the chamber right because it's not going to work as well and there are times in the Marine Corps that I've got to rely on because I said so you know we can play sure rock paper rank you know when it comes down to one two three I uncover my collars you uncover yours oh hey you know I'm the senior officer but you can do it one time and I only do that when absolutely necessary when it is a time sensitive issue but the most important aspect is that there's follow-up and when there is time I go back that's right I explain the why because not because I owe it to them or whatever but because I want to ensure that that foundation of trust is solid and you talked about you know your daughter as an example you know our 13th commandant in the Marine Corps General John A. Lejeune he likened leadership and the relationship of leader and subordinate he said it's not superior and inferior and I don't like those two terms because there's nothing inferior about a young enlisted Marine and there's nothing superior about a 50 year old colonel senior officer but I'm not a superior officer but General Lejeune said the relationship between leader and lead is much more of like a teacher and a scholar or a parent to a child our job is to educate and to build them up so that they can someday take these responsibilities that's awesome it's excellent and so I'm going to assume that you spend a tremendous amount of time with these Marines trying to build that trust as a leader so that when you are put in a combat position the trust is then built and so that when you are in combat when you are when you're stationed overseas what is that group of people called in the Marines that's a company or what is that called typically it's my favorite answer in all of the Marine Corps it depends it could be a squadron because we have aviation in the Marine Corps it could be a company and like the infantry it could be a detachment in the logistics world so yeah let's just go with company let's go with the company and is there a general word that people use in the Marines or in general that would identify so when you're leading a group of Marines whatever that is a company let's just call it a small unit small unit leadership how important is it that you've already built that trust by the time you're in combat position right it's life and death yeah it's that important you know General Lejeune defined leadership in a number of different ways but when you boil it down it's not that difficult leadership is getting people to do you need them to do not because you told them because you've inspired them to want to do it it's art and science the science of it is easy you know we can learn I can memorize the 14 leadership traits I can memorize the 11 leadership principles that's the sciencey part but it's the virtue of character the habituation and the repetition that you get in common like I said shared misery builds morale and you do that through training and when you train your Marines realistically those young men and women those heroes with whom you serve when you've earned that trust they'll follow the orders and it's not a switch you can flip on you know they'll respect the rank but that only gets you so far they have to trust the leader the individual and that is that art portion that will get them to do the very difficult thing yeah absolutely to me I think back about that parenting example when your kids are younger their entire life is controlled by you and you could just put your thumb down on them if you want to you can control with an iron fist you can control your kids if that's what you want to do but there is a day coming when you can't do that anymore like when your kid's 16 or 17 or 18 or moves out and if you don't spend the previous 16 to 18 years building trust and building the relationship then the day is going to come when they move out and they're never going to call back to home they're never going to come back for Thanksgiving and for Christmas and so we do the same thing as parents we do the same thing why I hope that Marines and people in the military don't take offense to this but I think it's why the culture and the lifestyle of the military is so attractive to parents who think about these things and to businesses and I think it often gets tossed around like we're not in war we're not in combat in the middle of trying to run business we've had tough things that we've had to deal with and get lawsuits that's not the same thing as being in Afghanistan and being in combat situations but there are so many lessons that can be learned for the rest of us out there by the way that military conducts itself by the way they run their culture by at least the way they've set it up and I know that it's not perfect everyone is an imperfect person we're humans right so just as we screw up as parents I'm sure you've all screwed up as leaders in the military but it's still a very attractive thing because the military has thought at such a detailed level of what this should look like of what it looks like to bring someone up from not inferior like you said but from what was the word you used early in the entry level it's a subordinate marine or a junior marine yeah from a very early subordinate who's on their first day of basic or their first day of school up to a general sort of position it's all the same culture and it's all the same buy-in and you're just that's what you're doing you're creating buy-in you're creating trust yeah you know I was on I'm actually flipping through some notes that I took a while ago I was on a phone conference with one of our general officers and he talked about the difference in training and education. Training is for times of uncertainty education is for those uncertain times and you know like you with your children they're eventually going to move out and you hope that they take those lessons learned that your goal was to instill in them and for marines our education is never over you know I'm like I said 28 years and I hate to keep throwing that number out there but I say it because somebody else might listen to that and think wow he knows a thing or two about a thing or two the only thing I know is that I've got so much more to learn sure and you know I'm teaching in my current job I'm teaching a leadership and ethics class and I am as well as the professor I am a student of the material and the real shame of it is that I wish I had this passion for learning back when I was a second lieutenant or you know even before that when I was at the Naval Academy because it would have made me such a better equipped leader throughout my time so and that I think is one thing that the military does so well is that we continuously educate our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines so let's turn in the last step of this podcast to this physical side of this the training good I was wondering we were going to get to this you've told me before in previous conversations you and I were having certainly offline how much you have loved and pursued fitness your entire career it's obvious that it wasn't just something that you were trying to meet the standard it was obvious that you found the love of this of the misery of the training of the actual doing the thing right performing that PFT you know putting on the rock and running like you've loved that stuff fair? yes very fair and what role I mean from what I heard you say is one of those things that seems like it's one of the ways that you can build camaraderie better than almost anything else among a group of Marines that when you go out and suffer together especially when you're a leader and your Marines will watch you suffer with them and watch you lead literally by example is there anything you can do that's better at building camaraderie when not in combat than that I would be hard pressed to give an example but I'll tell you a little secret just between you and me and anybody else who's listening right 10 or 12 people yeah 2 or 3 tops it's me after all I lost my way very early as a Marine Officer you know when I was at the Naval Academy I played sports and I was exceptionally mediocre at them by the way I love that term and for people that have heard me get the interview I've used a very similar term I say I was painfully average at athletics growing up there is no more of a dubious honor than to be the captain of a junior varsity team you're like the best of almost there but not quite that's right yeah so in my exceptional mediocrity you know I always had the team and the coach and you know it sort of carried me through my 4 years at the Naval Academy and then you know fast forward I'm at the basic school and I'm now a second lieutenant and there is no coach it's okay here's the standard figure it out and I didn't figure it out and when it came time to do our physical fitness test I don't know if this will resonate but I did not get a first-class physical fitness test interesting in fact it was a second class score and for the meat eating type A second lieutenants who are supposed to be hungry and and full of fire and vigor I felt I passed it's a passing score sure but I just I think it was one of the lowest scores in the entire training company how much did that bother you at the time I think I was wallowing in it so I didn't really see it for what it was and then I showed up as a second lieutenant my first command uniform is kind of tight and it must have been the dry cleaner it wasn't certainly nothing that I've done right and there was a moment when I realized I can't do this like I walk in and people are looking at me going you know why am I going to follow him he didn't even look good in uniform and you know this is the Marine Corps of 1994 so it was a little bit different what we've got now we've got a lot more structure we've got a lot more programs that are young Marines now but you know I just did what I saw people around me doing and I went running and running and running and that's really where I figured out okay I'm not as bad as I thought I was I just needed to bust the rust off and then when I got to officer candidate school that was where things got a little bit more balanced I wasn't just endurance I was a little bit more attuned to the rest of my body if you will but you know when you go out and work out with Marines they want to see effort and they want to see you know they want to see somebody lead them they don't want to question why is this person in charge they want to have that confidence like well of course he is or of course she is it makes sense it also makes sense there's a book called Learning to Breathe Fire I don't know if you've seen this but it's really it's like the history of CrossFit and it's interesting how CrossFit exploded in 2008 2007 somewhere in there when the soldiers were in Afghanistan and Iraq because it was that style of training it forced effort on everyone you know certainly you and I we've talked about this off the air that it is not the best way to train and it led to lots of injuries but it fed that I think for them so they could come out and they could pick up ammo cans and swing ammo cans like kettlebells and they could find the stuff that were laying around that they had even if they didn't have access to barbells and still do the thing and so and I'm sure it built a tremendous amount of camaraderie among people it exploded I think because of a lot of that absolutely it's pretty early on if two people go running together one of them is really not getting all the benefit that they need that's right because you're either running faster or slower than you know the other person I think that's why you know for me running was a very solitary activity I at the time I enjoyed it because I was able to get out I was able to clear my head I was able to process information and it was crazy once I cleared my mind some of the things that would go through it are not meant for any physical benefit I mean there is some inevitable physical benefit but you run as fast as your slowest individual sure it's all about unit morale right and that's why we call cadence that's why we do things like that but it's not necessarily for the physical betterment of the command when you've got something like you just talked about whether it's high intensity tactical training or crossfit or you know call it what you will that is something you can do together in a confined space that's where you can launch and you know right or wrong when a physically fit man or woman walks into a room they have walk in the room credibility that's right and people notice them and they're like that is the poster marine right there and you know that's where really starts where people want to emulate that's setting the example they want to emulate the leader that they see and the training like that whether it's hit or what have been done yep yep so you told this story in the first episode of the series about how you've finally discovered we're really into running and eventually all of the high impact over the years of running started to beat your body up right and you discovered did you ever do crossfit in that 2010 to 19 range before you found strength training I don't mean to brag but I am a crossfit level one coach okay got it moderate to intense level so when I went to my crossfit level one seminar they were going around they were like hey you know give us your name how long you've been crossfitting and you know what you hope to get out of this and you know it was like hey I'm Steve I've been doing this for nine years and I'm Suzanne I've been doing this for four years and it just went around the room and it got to me and I'm like hey good morning everybody I'm one somebody who comes in they have no experience for crossfit never done it for me it was like I learned all the things the right way so incredibly difficult that is not an easy test by the way for anybody who's going for their level one certificate it's study that's all I can say before it was crossfit you know we do high intensity tactical training or hit I had been doing that since about 2014-2015 okay where I was getting more away from just running but you know over 40 it just means that more things hurt right for me for me I'm not throwing stones at it for anybody out there who loves it I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just saying for me it hurt that's right that's right so and then you turn you told the story again in the first episode you really turn to strength training dedicated strength training in 2019 over the last several years and you know you have communicated to us that it has been one of the best things that you've done physically for your body to repair your body and put you in a position where you felt strong and healthy again I had resigned myself to have returned to my mediocrity if you will I mean I don't mean to sound braggadocious I just wanted to say the word braggadocious but you know I've done 10 marathons I'm an iron man triathlete that was part of my identity sure and when I couldn't do that anymore I mean it was to the point where I couldn't get up from my desk and walk down the passageway without limping and people are like are you okay? and I'm like no it's just just who I am I had just resigned myself like this is it you know I don't know what I'm going to do after I retire but I can't keep doing this and I was about to get Achilles tendon surgery where they were going to cut the tendon off of my heel you know do some stuff and then bolt it back on and then I finally gave in because I had always thought the biggest mistakes I could have ever made was to think that way and I finally gave in and I was like let me see what resistance training is all about and I put a barbell on my back and I realized I could lose weight doing barbell training I could gain weight doing barbell training because it really had nothing to do with the weights it had everything to do with you know nutrition finally eating correctly sure and through all of my other endurance training I never had a coach and for the first time I had a coach not a client for barbell logic this is not an endorsement for barbell logic I just am a guest on the podcast and the coach that I had was not a barbell logic coach but she was a strength training coach and I finally learned the right way to train and I got the fire back I regained the passion for fitness and I realized at 49 years old I'm just getting started that's great so we've talked about the mental aspect of leadership we've talked about the impact that training together suffering together as a group how it builds trust here's my last major question for you on a personal level and then I'd like to pull back into kind of a 30,000 foot view how has strength training over the last several years made you a better leader okay I'm going to try to dance around this so it doesn't sound like I'm a pompous jerk no the job I'm in right now I am working with college students they are 18 to 22 years old and they are excited about what they're doing I knew coming up here that it was not enough just to walk the walk or to look the part I should say sure I couldn't just show up and he looks pretty good in his uniform I had to lead by example I couldn't just show up at physical training I had to quite frankly I had to dominate in physical training because I didn't want any of them to think it's enough just to get by so I have been training I mean pretty not even pretty consistently I can count on the number of probably two fingers how many programmed workouts I've missed in over two years yeah and I mean I made up for them but these are just I have been absolutely consistent and one might even say relentless in my pursuit of physical training because to me leading when it's hard sure put that in whatever context you want in this situation it's physical training but leading when it's hard is the most important time so when I'm out there with those students and we're doing physical training if we're doing sprints I want to win and it's not that I want to beat them and rub their face in it but I want them to be hungry I want them to know what it's like to overcome a challenge and to finally beat the old man you know I want them to think I'm 22 years old and this 50 year old is out here you know he's getting it done and I want them to see the effort and I want them to see that commitment and I want them to see the passion that I put into it because that's just one aspect of my leadership and I want them to see that carry over into all the other the physical training field is the most visible demonstration of that effort and that passion and the accomplishments that we all strive for that's great it's easy I mean I can say this instead of putting the words in your mouth that if you pull back to that 30,000 foot view you can see how the direct impact that strength training can have actually in fact not just military leaders but leadership across the board like I think this is why we train as parents and as bosses and CEOs I think this is like it's the same thing right we have to do this you know in many of the other episodes in this series we've talked about the value of strength training for the soldier or Marine or whatever you are and so soldier sailors airmen and Marines all of them and our Coast Guardsman too yes all of those things that's right but it is interesting that you called out it really comes back to the idea of voluntary hardship right we're leading we're choosing to do a thing most of the rest of the western world sits on their couch and watches Netflix and each junk and we understand the value that it provides on not just a physical level certainly a physical level but on a mental and emotional and social and a trust building level as well it's really a right it has direct impact on all those you know you call it voluntary hardship and I think that's a great way to describe it but one of the best leadership lessons is there's a line for something good getting back yeah if there's a line for something hard get in front that's right that's right you know Simon Sinek says you know use the term leaders eat last in the Marine Corps I eat last yeah dead last and if there's nothing left you know I don't get but I need to make sure that I take care of my people you know the young men and women who've been placed in my charge I mean that's my sacred responsibility and that's the trust that's the bond and that's what gets them to do the things that I've asked them to do not because I told them because I've hopefully inspired them to want to do it that's great yeah and I love it you can continue to do the strength training into your 50s and 60s and when your body and your body is really kind of there you're not able you probably couldn't go out well let me say that again your conditioning is such that you could probably go out and run a little bit more or ankles your Achilles your knees your hips it's not going to be happy with that it's always on the list of things that I am considering yes I haven't ruled anything out you know up to an including ironman well and I think you could do it I want to coach this time would you publicly state at least that like your body probably isn't going to like it no it will not yeah the but it's still choosing to do something hard you know is a three-mile run pull-ups and crunches men of a certain age I should say men and women of a certain age the Marine Corps has just gone to a system where we can row you know get on a concept to and pull 5,000 meters and I want to thank whoever proposed that in the meeting where the decision was made because the impact of three miles I mean that takes a toll for a couple of days a marathon would a marathon would hurt sure I get on the concept too I get off after a 5k you know I'm good I'm good for the rest of that day sure there's no impact on a C2 row so but yeah absolutely so for me strength training has enabled me and I'm telling you I'm still turning in 300 perfect scores for my physical fitness test and my combat fitness test and I owe a lot of that to strength training because it's taken the pain away from physical training for me but the joints don't have to bear all the load all the science stuff that you talk about that's right and one of the things we're really careful about at Barba Logic and again I know you're not advocating this specifically with Barba Logic and want to be careful there but for us there are physical fitness tests in every branch of service it is our goal to help those people improve their physical fitness scores that's for another episode on another course getting better there but one of the things that we can do in the entire holistic W-H-O-L program for someone is to help them become stronger and better and do that with voluntary hardship and I think that the day is coming and the military certainly moving this direction it seems that they're starting to adopt more strength training pieces and I think it's because it helps make soldiers better it helps make them healthier you have lower injury rates like all of these pills and checks off that box of voluntary hardship of suffering together of training together of getting better together and so the army is doing their new army combat fitness tests they've got the trap bar deadlift in there that's right you know so they are absolutely looking at an expression of physical strength and you know again I'm not advocating for or advertising for barbell logic but I do know a thing or two about your company and I do listen to your podcast and I remember you doing versus exercise and a point that you made was if you take a golfer and he stops golfing for you know six, eight months puts on you know 15, 20 pounds of muscle yes strength training will fundamentally change the golf swing that's right so would six to eight months off from a golf club but if you incorporate and for me in my training incorporating strength training to all the other things which is great when you're 67 years old like you are thank you for that you know what age catches up with everybody so have fun with it well I mean that's the fun of the leadership kind of growth over the course of your career right is that it's crazy that as you get older and older your body gets a little more beat up the stuff that you can't do the stuff you did when you're 21 years old although strength training is a relationship between the physical strength and the mental strength and one of the things that we're trying to do on a daily basis one of the things I've watched you do is you've been able to preserve the physical strength while continuing to improve over the decades your mental fortitude and wisdom no we haven't said the word yet on this podcast but resilience is an absolutely intended consequence of the training that I do that's right you know if you just look at the definition of the arm this voluntary hardship it has made me just more than what I would call a middle-aged athlete it makes me a healthier human you know I can I can walk down stairs without snap, crackle and pop that's right you know I can pick something up that's heavy I can shovel snow as you do in Vermont and I'm not broken for two days afterwards which is good because it's Vermont it's going to snow again tomorrow that's right it builds that anti fragility a resilient person and it makes me a more resilient leader that's awesome hey man thank you again for being on the show thanks for your contributions over the course of this series it's been super helpful and super informative for me it's been fun to just learn talking to people about the way you do life in the Marines and the way the culture is and it's so interesting to me and there's so many takeaways for me as someone who's not ever been in the service I happen to do what I do for a living and you do what you do for a living and we're all part of a bigger system so I appreciate you having me on it's been a great hour and I look forward to keeping in touch over time absolutely thanks again hey thank you for listening we've got one more episode in the military podcast coming up on specifically Nikki Sims is going to dive down that culture path and talk a little bit more about how culture is affected tremendously love a five star review if you haven't given us one in the past and the podcast brings you value please do that and please share this with a member of the service if they haven't been exposed to the stuff that would be super helpful for us let's help people be better soldiers and Marines and airmen and sailors I got it well done alright we'll talk soon