 Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here in Queens, New York, and I'm with Jonathan and your wife, Ann Lynn. They've lived here, well, you've grown up in New York City, I believe. Yeah, and you've been here about 15 years, something like that. So why don't you all just introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about your church and the ministry you're involved in here in New York City. Yeah, like I said, I'm Jonathan and I live in New York, Brooklyn, 15 years. And I've been a part of the followers of Jesus, I spent a night church for that time. We've been married 12 years, and I had particular interest in just reaching the neighborhood for Christ. So that was kind of what kicked off my ministry, if you will. Just wanting to share the gospel and see people be saved. In 2011, I was called to the assistant pastor role there at followers, which really created a little bit of a shift in my focus because I was doing like boys club type ministry. And as I was doing that, my focus started shifting actually in my heart. I had an uneasiness. I said, I don't know if youth ministry in itself, or Israel in and in itself, I think maybe we need more like family ministry. And I said, well, I think that's the church. And so God was drawing my heart toward the church and then called me into the pastoral role. And then in 2017, there was a need to replace our lead pastor and I was called into that. And so that's currently where we're serving. Like John said, my name's Ann Lynn. My parents are from Haiti, but I was born and raised in Brooklyn all my life. I started going to follow Jesus' midnight church when I was 11 years old. I'm in my 30s now. And we have four girls. I stay home with them now, but before that I had a background in social work and I have a background in psychology and child and family studies. So it's pretty interesting that we both have an interest in families and God brought us together and we both have a heart for the church. And that transitions very well into what this episode is all about when you're talking about family and church and how those things were together. I actually didn't know you had background in social work. So you got your master's degree here in New York? Yeah, at Sunnybrook University. Okay, wonderful. Something that I know you all are really passionate about is relationships within the church, family, especially when it comes to different ethnic groups across linguistic lines and ethnicities. Just tell me a little bit about that, where that interest came from and what you've observed when witnessing those types of interactions especially in the context of Anabaptist churches. My parents had, they were fairly missional. They had experience in Canada with the Aboriginal community. And then they also lived in the south in Mississippi for a number of years and built relationships with the Black community there. And so for me growing up, a part of my parents' interactions and friendship was among other ethnicities and minority groups. We had Aboriginal families coming through our home. Many years later, these relationships were sustainable. And then also when we'd go to Mississippi to visit, I have relatives there, we were also visiting their friends from the Black community. This is many years after they lived there. And so what that communicated to me as a child was that they had built genuine relationships. And it also communicated to me that we're all kind of equal, like we're all important. And so I think that really was, that was formational for me and I think it was a real advantage for me in terms of my interest in engaging people cross-culturally. Now when I moved to New York, I think I was a little overwhelmed by it all. Well wait, so we're in Queens, right? Do you know how many ethnic groups are right here? I think there are over 300 languages both in maybe this upcoat or zip code close by. That's incredible. Wow. Yeah, I mean New York City, if you want to experience the world in terms of ethnic... Especially this neighborhood, I would say. ...culture and people, it's here. And so I was kind of overwhelmed by that. But I loved it. I love relating cross-culturally. So fast forward, I meet my wife and I'm drawn to her because I see qualities in her that I thought were important to me and I was praying about for a wife. When recording, we're about two months into our courtship and we have our first argument. And guess what our argument was about? It was over whether the Emancipation Proclamation really was about freeing slaves or not. Oh boy. Oh boy. So I don't know exactly what the conversation was, but I felt a need to remind her of the great deed that Abraham Lincoln performed in this freeing of slaves and she didn't seem to appreciate it at all. What? Okay, so what was your response? Well, he was kind of saying, he was surprised that I didn't come across as more grateful about it. Well, it wasn't about the slaves, it wasn't about the black people. It was a political agenda that drove the whole... I think that Abraham Lincoln did have some personal convictions against it, but it wasn't until politics got involved that he felt a need, that it had to be a push forward. And there were lots of people that were opposed to slavery, but they waited until it affected the nation politically to make something happen. So it wasn't really something that I was super grateful about. It was like, you should have done it a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that was... All of this is formational. So I went from feeling like I had a healthy experience for my parents and the family. I felt like I could approach cultures fairly non-biasedly. But we get into this argument and now all of a sudden it exposes how I actually understand the world and how limited I actually am growing up in a monolithic environment. And so now we are journeying together and I have an opportunity to learn. It's interesting because we started dating around my senior year of college. And between high school and college, I was very interested in the black experience in America, but not from the history textbook version. Just what do black people feel like their experiences here in America? I've always had the opportunity to be part of diverse groups. I went to a Catholic school that had Spanish, black, Asian, all different types. I never really thought about differences so much growing up. But when we moved to... I lived in Brooklyn, we moved to Long Island. In Long Island, I went to a predominantly black school and mostly Caribbean, African American. The teachers there, because of it being a predominantly black school, really wanted to instill a lot of black pride about our history, but not so much from the textbooks from the way they've experienced it as adults. And so they started teaching us a lot about inequalities and institutional racism and things like that. And then I went into college with that interest sparked and studying about people and cultures and things like that. And then here we are, senior year dating. And I've always had friends from different backgrounds, like I said. And then being in the Mennonite Church, I've had white friends growing up. But here's this guy that I'm interested in and we're trying to start this deep relationship. And two months in, we have this big argument and I'm like, you mean you don't get it? I have to explain this to you. And so I don't think I had any other friendship that close to me where it got that emotionally intense until we were dating, but it was like, I had challenged something and he didn't quite get it. And then I had this moment of frustration like, how do I explain to you something that you actually maybe can't even relate to completely? And I can't relate to in some ways because I'm not, I didn't grow up as a slave or something. But because I'm a black woman, I can identify with the black struggle in a way that he couldn't as a white man. And just we're close though and I want you to identify with my struggle. So how do we, so we started having those conversations. But then because of where I was at in life too, those conversations started opening up in my friendships. And that's where it got really intense because it can get pretty hurtful when you try to explain a piece of your existence to someone and they just don't get it. And so I started having more and more discussions the more I learned about the black experience in America with white friends in the church and they didn't get it. And it was hurtful, some of the comments that they made or the responses that they had. And they weren't intending to be hurtful, but when you're being shut down with all kinds of arguments you do start feeling like it's hopeless why are we having this discussion. But in us pushing forward through the discussion we realize we have to be able to like, if the church is salt and light, we have to be able to have this intense discussion and still love each other at the end of the day. Oftentimes when you have those clashes it feels like the one side just does not have a box for that thought to fit in. It's just like they just don't even have the capacity to understand where you're coming from. So I'm guessing you faced a lot of that. I'm guessing you still do face a lot of that. Well I think because of the political climate that we're in the conversations are just in your face right now because of social media. You can turn off your social media and maybe not pay attention to it but a lot of how people really feel about inequalities, about oppression even about just racial differences come out because of social media and I think people actually surprise themselves about how they feel about things. We're looking at discussions about immigration for instance and seeing Christians comment about keep them out of here and it's like you're a believer don't you care about the child or the family that's suffering and so how do we come to a biblical conclusion and love each other at the end of it is really hard. Instead of being dominated by the emotional rollercoaster that this country is in and say you're actually what does Jesus say? Can you just outline for us then what you see in the Bible as far as what God says about relationships between different ethnic groups, different cultures. What does God want and how can we actually live biblical when it comes to these issues? For me part of what I had to come to in the struggle is recognizing that differences are okay and they're good because I think at some point I started feeling like these differences are just going to keep us separate and in church history that's why we have the African Methodist Episcopalian Church and that's why we have this. People did start separating because the differences were overwhelming and I had to find somehow within myself what does the word say? How do I deal with this in a loving way and not shut people out that I care about because we just can't, we're not on the same page. And the Bible talks about how there's no slave, there's no free, there's no Greek or Jew, there's no male or female, basically we're all brothers and sisters in Christ. And so I do have to remind myself of that. In Christ where brothers and sisters there's no differences, we're family now. And so once I can get into my mind that we're family, it's like my brothers or sisters that sometimes we annoy each other but at the end of the day we're family, we're still going to be part of the same family and maybe we don't see everything eye to eye but we're still family in Christ. And I think another way to come at the racial discussion in the church is just the golden rule like how do we want to be treated? So if I don't perceive inequality that's fine but if a brother or sister is struggling with inequality how would I want them to treat me in that situation? And I think that's some of the ways that we could look at the racial discussion within the church. I think also there's, I think we can look all the way into the Old Testament and see God's heart for all nations. And so I think of the Abrahamic Covenant where God says to Abraham, I'm going to make Covenant with you. This Covenant really is about a called out people that are willing to portray my righteousness and make my name great and walk in obedience to me. And so here in the Old Testament through even the Abrahamic Covenant we have God's heart for the world to know about him and for his righteousness to be known. And what he says to Abraham is that through you, through your family all the families of the world will be blessed. And so right there God reveals his heart for all ethnicities of the world to be blessed. We moved to the New Testament and we see this culminating in Jesus in Ephesians chapter 2 at the second half of Ephesians chapter 2. It talks about this wall that was between the Jews and the Gentiles and that Jesus came and broke down that wall. And it talks about the Gentiles as being alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and that Jesus came and breaks down this wall. Now what's significant about this and what does this division between the Jews and Gentiles have to do with a racial discussion? Well it very much has to do with it because this wall was certainly an ethnic wall. It was an ethnic division between Jews and Gentiles. And we see that this practically lived out and worked itself out in the church where as the Jews were coming to faith and the Greeks were coming to faith the Gentiles were coming to faith, they had a hard time figuring out how to do church together. They had a hard time figuring out how to be Christians together. They had a hard time figuring out how the Old Covenant, their influence and that forming their belief system works in the New Covenant and the Gentiles coming in and they're eating their pork. How can you do this? This is such a disgrace to us, right? And so Paul and the Apostles had an incredible job trying to... But this was not just a religious discussion. This was an ethnic discussion and cultural. And so practically speaking, yes, we have this New Covenant being ushered in in Christ and he tears down this wall and there's a discussion of... It is a religious element, right? But certainly at a very practical level there is a very ethnic conflict at play here. And so I think it's so important that we recognize that it's a heart of God to break down that wall and to say in Christ, like Alan said, there's neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female, male nor free, we're all a new man in Christ. That needs to be central to our theology, it needs to be central to our conviction if we're going to be able to navigate these tensions. And what that sums up is that the gospel, I think, really deals with this issue. It should just completely change the way we think about the world and how we completely change how we think about people and how we love people. I think sometimes in these discussions people say things like, well, I don't see color or that's not an issue I have. I look at people the same and I think when we say neither Greek or Jew, we're not saying that people are just all the same now. We're saying we're part of the same family and I think part of the healthy part of the discussion is saying we are different, God made us different and it's beautiful. It's okay to say that we're different, it's okay to notice the differences, but they're just different, they're not wrong. And I think sometimes there's an underlying belief that different is wrong. We don't realize it until the different comes up against our face and it feels wrong to us because it's different. It's okay to say that I'm black and he's white. We're not uncomfortable about that. We're not saying that that has to separate us, but it's a difference that God made and it's beautiful. One of the things that we fail to celebrate in the Gospel is what John, first John outlines, that when we walk in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So as blood wash saints, we should celebrate that we have fellowship. And one of the things that we're also celebrating is our differences in ethnicity to say that you are made in the image of God and you are made in the image of God and I am made in the image of God and together we are in Christ. We're all partakers of His redemption. We're all partakers of His forgiveness because we're all sinners and together we celebrate who each other is in Christ as God made us. And I think that's the important part because you guys aren't just saying, oh, let's just give this all right and salad and take care. You're saying that's actually celebrate the amazing creativity that God has. You said 300 different languages just in this area or this zip code or whatever. That is just so cool. That shows so much creativity that God has. And yeah, I think you're right. We need to celebrate that more. My next question would be how can God's people celebrate that diversity and use the gospel and the Bible to help bring reconciliation and peace instead of keeping those tensions alive? And I'm thinking of that specifically in our Anabaptist churches because we can be blunt and honest that our Anabaptist churches do not have that much ethnic diversity. And I think it is very hard for us. I think that when we start to see people how God sees them, we have hearts of compassion then. And when we start to see ourselves how God sees us, we can start to see the pride and prejudice in our own hearts. It's only when we are using God's plumb line for ourselves that we can see who we really are. It's easy to compare ourselves to other people and say, well, I'm not racist. I'm not doing this or that. But when you start looking at God's heart for people and what He was willing to do to show His love, we can see that there's pride and prejudice in our own hearts that keep us from being loving towards people. Part of that is being okay with different... We talked about being okay with differences, but specifically in the Anabaptist churches, one thing that I felt as a black woman in... I don't think about it at our church so much because we have a little bit more diversity. But when we travel, for instance, I think people in an effort to make me feel comfortable actually make me feel uncomfortable. They want to make sure that I feel welcome, but they'll say things like, oh, nice to meet you. You remind me of my time in Africa. I'm like, okay. I've never been there. That's great. It's almost like me saying, you remind me of wanting to go to Germany sometime. Let's try to connect on just basic human, like, nice to meet you. What's your name? How would you treat somebody who looked like you? And so, just even specifically in Anabaptist churches, I think that the struggle is different, is sometimes scary, and people don't want to be seen as scary or weird. They want to be seen as people. And so, when you approach someone and say, hi, what's your name? Where are you from? We can have a discussion, but when you start talking about your mission trip to Africa, I start feeling a little uncomfortable. Daniel Pollard, who's traveled, a lot of people ask me all the time, are you Daniel Pollard's daughter? I'm like, no, I'm not. I've gotten before, but you're his daughter or to John, but you're his son-in-law. And John's like, no, I'm not. And they'll push, but you were a Pollard. I'm like, no, I was never a Pollard. Oh, wow. And John has had to say there are other black meninates. Because his family travels, it's like, that's the black family. There's no perception that there could be other black people out there. Wow. And I don't get upset with people about it. It's just I notice it. It's their effort to make me feel comfortable. Well, it almost just shows we're not used to it. It's almost like we're still getting in a role. We're not used to having to confront something like that or be used to it. So one thing I would say is that meninates or the Anabaptist circles have an advantage in that most of us, at least, would like to assume are saved or born again. And so that already has an advantage in terms of our heart and our attitude. But I am very alarmed at how much divisiveness actually comes out of our circles. One of the things that's very important for us to understand about this discussion of racism, the discussion of ethnic biases, is that this is a sin issue. This is not just a social issue. We're tempted to just view this as a social problem, but this is a sin problem. If we just view it as a social problem, then we can do a couple of things. One, we can just retreat from the issue, just move away from the issue, and say, I don't want to get involved. I'm just going to be in my space and relate within my circles. The second thing we can do is say, well, this is a problem, and so I'm going to engage it, and it is a problem, and I'm going to try to find a solution. The problem is that if we have just merely a social issue on our hands, then we're going to look for social solutions. How do we often do that? We do that through politics, right? We just have to look around us and see that at a political level and social level, we're in chaos. If we view it as a sin issue, which it is, then it affects me, and I can't escape it, and it affects you, and you can't escape it, and it draws us to take account for where we stand with this issue. And so we can't retreat. And furthermore, we have a solution, and it's not just political. It's not political. And yes, this discussion has social dynamic to it, but the solution is found in Jesus, who actually changes our lives and changes how we think and changes our desires and purifies us. And so we have a viable solution now to deal with this issue. And it calls me to repentance. It calls me to love my neighbor as myself. Talking about biblical texts again, going back to that, Galatians 5. Brothers, for freedom, you have been set free. Only don't use your freedom as an occasion for your flesh. But by love, serve one another. And so fulfill the law of Christ. The law is fulfilled in our love for our brother. And so I think that's a very critical thing for us to understand. And so when we see all of this negative rhetoric, and we see these things emerging on social media, from within the church, that are divisive and hurtful, we're not seeing this as an issue that really touches my life. I don't think at a core we see it as a sin issue. I think when we see it as a sin issue, it's not saying, well, now we don't need to talk about it. It's sin in your life. It's sin in my life. Let's repent and move on. I think what acknowledging that it's a sin issue does is that it changes how we approach the problem. So now when I have a perceived inequality that I see happening in the black community, and I'm talking to John or a friend about it, when we're having that discussion, how do we have that discussion as believers now? So maybe John doesn't agree with me on that perception, but he would put himself in my position and say, if I were a black man, for instance, how would I feel in this social climate? How would I feel about walking on the street, you know, at a certain time of night, depending on the neighborhood? Maybe I don't see that, but how does it feel for you? I want to put myself in your shoes and I want to be like Jesus. I want to give self-sacrificing love. And so now the discussions are happening, but now I'm looking to see how I can care for that brother or sister. So maybe I don't agree with you, but at least I have compassion. And maybe I don't agree with you, but I want to understand you. And the discussion changes so much. Like on Facebook, I saw a lot of times when there was all these news stories about young black men being killed by police officers and things like that. It made me really sad to see the discussion within our Anabaptist circles how it went. I'd see comments like they got what they deserved or they had it coming because they had a criminal history in the past. And I thought, you know, I think I commented maybe in one thread, at the very least we should grieve the loss of life as believers. Maybe you have a perception of this person and their family, but at the very least as believers a soul might have been lost. So we have to look at it that way and come to this agreement that this was sad. There was a loss of life. How do we become a solution? So if you believe that we, I think we should agree as Christians that blue lives matter and black lives matter, right? But maybe within the church there's a discussion. Well, if you say one, you don't mean the other. But I think we should be salt and light and come into the discussion and say both matter. How do I bring these people together? Like in our community, when I see a police officer, I've been teaching my girls and people that are with me, greet the police officer. Say hello. Say thank you for serving our community. That's one way we can bitch again. We don't want to get into the political discussion. We want to be agents of change and healing. And I think it's so different to have the idea of social justice than it is to have the idea of compassion and love that Jesus had. Bringing it back to the core of Christianity instead of trying to just slap a social solution or a political solution on it, those seem to be the easy way out. It seems like what you guys are saying is a much deeper form of restoration and it will probably take a lot more work because we have to admit that we have sin in our lives, but it seems like that's an actual real solution. I think that, you know, a very practical way for us as churches to live this out is to just live it out locally and just apply the gospel. We often resort to justice. What I mean by justice is figuring out what is deserved for a wrong. And I don't know if we have the capacity to do that. God has called us to serve the least of these. He's called us to love, to care for the widow and the orphan. That's true religion. And to keep oneself unspotted from the world. And so I think if we can just locally where we're at live out the truths, the heart of Jesus, the heart of the gospel, we can start seeing small change. Definitely involves us being involved and having the conversation. But like she said, it's going to be a completely different conversation when we're closed with the heart of the gospel. That's the last question I had on my list. So is there anything else you would like to add about this? I think that a key thing in having the discussions, and maybe you don't have a person that you can have the discussion with face-to-face. But I think a lot of discussions are happening on social media. And this is just probably social media etiquette. In James, it talks about be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. And I think we do the opposite on social media. Like we have no filter. Say it how you want, when you want, and you're typing because the screen is between you and everyone else. But I think that when we're having discussions, whether it's in person or social media, that we should apply those rules. Listen, and not just listen so that you can say your piece when you're done, but listen to understand even if you don't agree. And be slow to become angry because just remember people are sharing personal experience. It's not an attack on you. And maybe they're just sharing about their pain and they just need you to listen. And so I think to be slow to become angry and to listen to each other is a huge thing that we're not doing. And I think social media makes it harder and we have to be more intentional in applying that principle. I echo that we've had the advantage of 12 years of living together. And for me, learning, I've become a student allowing my wife to help me see her side, her perspective. Even in listening to what we've shared today feels overwhelming or not even sure if it's practical for you, I would say become a student. And as the years go by, God will continue to develop and as you listen to people you'll begin to develop new ways of thinking and new ways of understanding and interacting with your friends cross-culturally. Thanks y'all so much. You're welcome. Thank you. Absolutely. This has been wonderful. Any time. We'll have to do it again sometime.