 Hello and welcome to a brand new edition of our show from Logo to Impact, I'm Vikram Mosa, here's what's on the show this time around. Even as the debate on net neutrality rate is on and Facebook goes hammer and tongs with its free basic campaign. We're talking about the impact this is going to have on the digital marketing landscape we'll bring in the expert. We're bringing down the new campaign from Vodafone and get you a new hubris ad to kick off the new year on a very happy note. The issue of net neutrality is a burning one that debate has been going on for some time but let's look a little bit more futuristically in different kinds of scenarios how net neutrality, if it's revoked, if it stays, what happens to the marketing landscape, more importantly the digital marketing landscape. To understand that I have a great panel with me here in Mumbai and in Bangalore. K.V. Shridhar, Chief Creative Officer at Sapien Nitro joins us here in Mumbai. So does Rajiv Dhingra, the founder and CEO of What Consult, which of course is part of Densu Ages now. And in Bangalore Ashok Lalla is with us, he's a digital marketing consultant, formerly Global Head of Digital Marketing at Infosys. So great to have you all with us. Ashok I want to begin by asking you where do you stand in the debate because you know it's been going back and forth but I want to understand from each of you where you stand starting with you Ashok. Well you know I stand in the position of a very very keen observer. I'm not really taking sides yet but I wear a marketers hat as you know and I also wear a consumers hat. So really whichever way it goes, success or failure will be dependent on what consumers choose. Marketers, telecom companies, social networks can package what they want. It's how it's adopted, how much it's adopted, how quickly and effectively it's adopted one way or the other that'll actually make or break for success. So really you know when the internet started in India, no one thought it would be 200 million people. Now it is 200 million people and people are talking of the next billion. So really how it rolls out is a matter of weight and watch but I'm one for freedom of the internet, the freedom of choice to consumers and regardless of whether marketers give the freedom to consumers, they always choose at the end of the day. Right so it sounds very good to kind of say that but realistically and KV Sridhar you've been around for a very very long time. To understand the landscape and like Ashok is pointing out as well, this is crucial right? This possibly could be a turning point in the way we look at the entire landscape as it were. How are you viewing it and where do you stand in the debate? Well I would say that there are no two hats, there is only one hat which is the consumers hat. I think at the end of the day, this day and age the power lies with people and if you try to do anything to tamper that you'll be a fool. And I think that's a lesson for everyone and net neutrality you know we just started the debate. I don't think that people understand, marketers understand, even the implications of that. Do our lawmakers understand? Do we understand? Do consumers understand to make a choice? So what are the essential elements that we are missing out on you? I think we are jumping the gun too much you know one after another you know first is net neutrality and then came the free basics. And then now the debate is shifted and petitions have been given to people you know to the organizations. I think we are I mean everything is happening so quickly and then so rapidly that you are hardly giving any time for people to digest what it means and the implications of that. So I think that will have a huge impact you know if you push anything by force on to the people, people will realize sooner or later and it's going to have a huge backlash. Rajeev you deal a lot with your clients yes and in the sense that you kind of working with them you have been for some time now. What's the sense that you are getting from them? So I think most clients currently are fans-sitters as consumers I think most of us agree with the sense that internet was born free and is meant to be free for everyone. Not the free that Facebook wants it to be through free basics but in general it needs to be no conditions apply and largely if you see internet across the world it is like that. In fact across the world there is underground internet also where you know all the things that are illegal in life are also available. I mean that's what the power of the web is you can't stop anything happening from there. But from a client's perspective I think even they don't know where this is headed. They understand the consumer perspective because they are a consumer today but as a marketer they are not sure whether the power of reach in the hands of a few publishers by virtue of them providing free internet is a good thing or a bad thing. Because on one hand it expands the internet and brings its reach to more people but on the other hand it leaves power in the hands of few when it comes to publisher. That seems like a dangerous proposition if you look at it from the outside as a basic premise. But looking at the possibility of the revocation of net neutrality and what kind of impact it could possibly have on the digital marketing landscape. Ashok how do you see this because you've been consulting on digital marketing for a while now. Where do you think this could go if indeed we live in a scenario where net neutrality gets revoked. Well obviously marketers will go where consumers are and say net neutrality gets revoked and free basics comes through. That doesn't mean marketers are going to just hop onto that bandwagon. Consumers need to hop onto it first and we must remember this debate is going on amongst people who are not going to be the users of free basics. So all the chatter that we're actually hearing is not amongst the billion who may or may not adopt it and that's something to keep in mind. Most marketers take a wait and watch strategy like in all marketing there'll be the early adopters there'll be the ones that will jump onto whichever channel there are consumers. There'll be ones to wait for peers to do it. There'll be ones to see whether there's traction and at the end of the day the consumer will be made the product at some point one way or the other. And marketers will try and leverage that with the data they can get through social networking analytics and go wherever the consumers are and follow maybe the lead of somebody. Some people will be laggards you know the marketing evolution curve will not be different. So I want to understand Bob how do you see this because like he's pointing out some of them will be leaders the others will be laggards. When you're looking at the leaders are you looking at the larger players who will obviously set the pace as it were. And like this entire debate has been pointing out that the startups and India has so many of them and you're looking at the possibilities that exist in the advertising world as well. Because they are getting the funding they are putting that money into advertising and marketing. So if they're not given the right opportunity how does it kind of clear the pitch as it were. When you're talking about net neutrality and that getting revoked do they stand to lose. Of course they will lose. Of course you know when you have an unfair play see today it is not about what value additions you can add to your product. It is all about what values you stand for. Sooner or later the connection between a brand and then the consumer will happen at a higher level of values. And by force if you go on to the publishers and then you know push your brand and then your and then seen with the guys who are monopolizing then consumers will actually get away from you. So in a longer run it's not a playable game because in a in this world which is completely transparent unless you stand for values really live by them people are not going to embrace. Does not matter whether you live in a small village or whether you live in a in a bigger town. This entire debate today is focused by like people in these are not the people who are going to use free basics anyway. These are the people trying to influence the policy makers. So right now the debate is at this level. Of course it will take a long time for people who are actually going to use any of these are going to first adopt second learn third you know act upon their learning and knowledge. So it is a long journey. Right. At the time that Airtel 0 came in there was an upsurge of reaction to it and some of that you know like you pointed out earlier as well that you know people haven't understood exactly what it means but it just put a huge question mark on the topic of net neutrality. What was the reaction at that point in time and Flipkart very quickly withdrew. Yes. That made a huge noise that made people really really put the doubt and then saying that is there anything. You know why suddenly when it started making news you know Airtel 0 the brand started retracting. Correct. Correct. The moment public opinion started forming and then brand started that is an indication of what is going to come. Right. So is it eventually going to be about how the consumer perceives it not necessarily you know being able to kind of separate the wheat from the shaft and saying this is right and this is wrong and this is how it should work because like Pops is pointing out as well a show. This is a very complex issue. So unless the consumer understands it fully you're not ever going to be able to reach a scenario where everyone is on board and considering that being the case for a consumer to decide whether he stands whether he or she stands for or against it. How are marketers really going to understand this kind of scenario. Are they just going to wait and watch like you're pointing out or is there going to be a strategy at play that is something that you would suggest to your clients perhaps. So really you know there will be marketers who may wait and watch because they want to be doing the right thing or not being seen to do the wrong thing because of this whole media kind of noise about what it is. But eventually they will gravitate to where the consumers are consumers will may gravitate to free basics if it happens but may stay with it or not because they always make choices. They always evolve. They always get more sophisticated and we've seen the digital consumer in India has evolved very uniquely to the rest of the world but has evolved meaningfully has made choices. And you know has really grown the whole market and has grown it to a scale where there is this debate in the first place. Correct. So that will really continue. So brands stand on the entire net neutrality debate is really coming into play right because that is clearly setting the perception and it's altering perceptions as well. When Facebook puts its entire might as it were on this entire campaign that they are running right now. How is that view because at this point in time they seem to be pushing it very very strongly the kind of advertising Blitzkrieg that we've seen right now is phenomenal. How do you think Facebook as a brand pushing through free basics in India is being perceived now. See if the government of India were to do it subsidize internet like the way you get you know gas and kerosene electricity everything subsidize. Then people would have not asked a question you have to be selfless to be selfish. Now in this case you are selfishly selfish correct and it oozes you know that smells of selfishness. So that is what people are rejecting you know no matter how much pressure they put this is not the time for them to win because you know they are bringing every defense. Now today they have said that we will even allow a Google and then Yahoo to be on on the thing correct and then we will allow competitors to be as part of the package. And then we will expand the websites from 14 to 40 and then we will have an open scrutiny. So how much they can go and each one is trying to actually tell you that here I am invested huge monies in that and then I am seeing far more dollars. Then I want to get this correct you know that is a very bad place for any brand to be right in this world. So that is what is going wrong with Facebook this aggressive push right. You know we are finding every brand take a stance on where they stand on net neutrality. So brand positioning is altering even as we speak every time that you take that stand you say exactly where you placed in this entire debate. You find that more and more when it comes to brand positioning and the crucial aspects of the debate where they stand and why they stand where they are is becoming very important. Do you need to put yourself out there and say what you're all about. I think brands that do realize that this would create an alternate internet are putting themselves out there and brands that know that they won't be part of this alternate internet are in their self interest acting and putting opposing you know free basics or promoting net neutrality. Consumers who have nothing to do no incentive are doing it because they see what's wrong with it right. Facebook is doing you know is putting a mask of selflessness and as you know KV pointed out they are trying to be as selfish as they can be in the short term. I think if you ask me my personal point of view even as a business I think Facebook is making a mistake because if you do this. Temporarily you may get a lot of users but in the longer term you will always be looked at someone who tried and controlled large portions of people's experiences by force rather than by natural intent. Ashok you think Facebook is making a mistake with the way they are going hammer and tongs with the promotion of free basics. Yeah I think the way they're going hammer and tongs is certainly hurting the brand perception amongst marketers amongst advertisers who are the you know the main cache of revenue. And regardless of whether face free basics goes through or not marketers and advertisers are now taking a kind of a very stance towards Facebook and that's not going to really benefit them in terms of their business interests or an advertiser support. Even for the main Facebook platform that they run so successfully so far so it is hurting them and they need to quickly quickly change tracks maybe beg forgiveness maybe get an Indian head to actually kind of beg forgiveness for them. And backtracks you know before they kind of move forward. So the consultation paper that Tia Raya has put forth and we're seeing exactly how this goes but ultimately do you think the onus lies with the government to set the pace as it were when it comes to freedom to access the net. And if that is the case then you know as far as the government is concerned the ball is in their court to be able to get more and more people onto the internet. And that is not something that corporates need to worry about. Do you believe that that's the stance that India needs to take and do you think this is a universal stance as well. See India is a very different country you know you have rich and poor coexist literate and illiterate coexist we have modernity and tradition coexist it's a very strange country. Though we are capitalistic today but the heart of India is still socialistic. Right. So therefore you know the rural and then justice equality and then certain opportunity and subsidizing that and then giving people an opportunity to be connected to be benefited out of that lies purely on the government. You know government has to do something to really subsidize and send 1 GB, 2 GB, 10 GB worth of data money to everybody's bank account like they are doing for guests. Right. You know you use the first GB free and then after that you know you pay for it. Right. Whether the mechanism is going to be directly to the consumers or to the telecom operators let them decide. I think it's a government who need to decide that what is the kind of freedom the citizens must have. Right. And who need to take the mantle of subsidizing and then providing free internet to the country. Is it a corporate or is it it is like asking any of the coal miners to really you know solve the country's power problems. Right. You can't give it to them to be able to decide such an important issue. Absolutely. I totally agree with KBR and in fact I want to say that it would be so much in interest of Facebook if it were to let government take a lead to create a program of free internet. Be a participant and a sponsor or all the money that they are spending on advertising would pretty much make a public donation of that and on the internet in any case if you see today Facebook is one of the top sites. Right. And one number two I mean. Correct. It is going to be a beneficiary in any case. Sure. If internet you know and people will love them more for making such public donations. So if they take a government route and already they've made those inroads so they just need to capitalize on that. And instead of saying free basics or a sort of a watered down internet put as much money as you want in getting subsidized in internet to rural India. Sure. Right. So if you see how that grows it will definitely Facebook is going to be it is the number one social network in the country. It's not going to change that even when people are protesting against Facebook they are doing it on the platform. Right. So you know I mean they have no thing to nothing to fear. Right. Right. I think they need to act how large they are with a large heart. Ashok. Yes. They are to only poor countries like India. You know they want to show the magnanimity. You know why can't Google Facebook everyone you know all of them come together launch a satellite and then give free internet to every citizen on this planet. Right. Why can't they do that they are already doing it. They are well meaning and they want to make. Absolutely. The internet more and more accessible than perhaps the government route to be able to partner with the government and making this possible is something that they can do. You agree with this Ashok. I totally agree. And I think you know Facebook should draw inspiration from its fellow American brand Google who also has the same intent to tap the next billion but is doing it in a way which is giving it a lot more credibility and positivity amongst the government amongst consumers amongst marketers. And I think it's also important to give up on this philanthropy trip and acknowledge that there is a business behind philanthropy. I think the government and everyone consumers marketers would be far more positive to embrace that because everyone is looking to bring more people on to do good for people and while people come on to get good for themselves. So really it's a symbiotic relationship. But currently Facebook is coming across like a bit of a parasite trying to prey on on the poor on the unconnected billion and trying to push through its agenda which in its own interest is not you know the best. Essentially backfire on the brand if that's the right usage but you know that's where we're leaving it right now. Well on this panel discussion we haven't had the kind of fireworks that one would expect on a debate on net neutrality considering the way it's been going right now. But even so we are more or less agreed that the consumer is going to lead the way and the symbiotic relationship between the government and the many parties who would be interested in making the internet more accessible is perhaps really something that we should be aiming for. Thanks indeed for joining us on the show Rajiv and Ashok as well but there's lots more coming up on the flip side of a very small break here on the show do stay with us.