 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm in studio Jimmy Buccellato here aka the doctor with my co-conspirator Scott Bernstein hey now and Benny's on the ones and twos there wheels of steel wheels of steel thank you for listening just want to remind everyone please subscribe to our podcast and We are also on YouTube have a YouTube channel up. So please subscribe to that by the way. I think yesterday Officially we were up to 3,000 subscribers. So thank you. We appreciate that and we want to keep that going Please spread the word. Please follow us on social media Facebook Instagram Twitter like follow share we're gonna try to get some of that exclusive content up and moving in the next month whether it be you know patreon or Go fund me. Yeah, we're gonna do some Facebook YouTube lives and Yeah Yep Yeah, I said to Benny and Jimmy yesterday when we hit 3,000. So let's try to get to 4,000 by New Year So that's that's the goal. 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That would be fun So anyhow, thanks for listening again, please follow us subscribe We are going to talk about outlaw biker clubs today. That's Increasingly popular topic for us. Some of our most downloaded episodes are about outlaw biker clubs And and we're happy to do that. That's one of our favorite topics, too And Scott has reported on some things that you can find on gangster report and we'll break it down here Concerning the outlaws emcee pagans Mongols so Let's start Bernie start us off with the latest and then we'll kind of go from different well I think it's also I mean, I think this is coinciding and lining up with a time and place in history where there is you know quite a bit of instability and consternation and tension brewing Really around the United States in in different spaces of the of the outlaw biker circles You have multiple Clubs that are in, you know various states of Dare I say war I mean when it's The outlaws they're right now fighting wars on on three separate fronts and that's not counting the government You have the outlaws that are in their, you know Five decade long feud with the Hell's Angels that will that will never stop That's an I know that's a that war that it started a long time ago And doesn't really show any signs of slowing down so that that will always be kind of a constant but within You know other groups you had a situation in that we've covered quite a bit And I've written about it on Gangster report over the last four or five last four years three four years where the pagans Which is traditionally a very regional club specific to certain parts of the the Northeast and Southeast Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, New York have Put forward this notion that they are going to expand and they've called it They've coined it the the the blue wave and there was a blue wave Mandate or a blue wave campaign that was launched by this very powerful biker boss Keith Richter aka Conan the barbarian who became The president of the pagans in around 2017 and immediately enacted this expansion campaign and that has put them at odds with the outlaws the pagans and outlaws had always coexisted without Without any dust-ups without any Tension and now there's quite a bit of tension between pagans and outlaws due to The pagans going into different cities and states and regions that they had never been in before and trying to impose their will Within that this is all going to come together in a second within the pagans blue mandate expansion Richter aligned with the Mongols, which is a west coast 1% club a lot of Hispanic membership and It was strategic because the pagans were pushing west and the Mongols already had a presence in the west coast but from this You've had a situation developed in the last couple years where you know my impression of it Is that the Mongols feel emboldened by this pagans expansion and they've decided to Go off and create their own expansion effort And and target specifically the midwest and the Mongols have never had a presence in the midwest and then About five years ago. You started to see Some seeds being planted and then in 2019 the Mongols came into Chicago Which is really the biker capital of the Midwest along with Detroit. They opened up their first club and in the last Two years there have been at least two shootings between the outlaws and the Mongols one just occurred And that's what we're gonna talk about and a lot of it the media in Chicago is positioning this story as You know a war is on the horizon between The Mongols were new to the Chicago area and the outlaws who were founded in in Chicago and have always claimed Chicago as you know as their territory, you know, it's interesting a few years ago When I was in Chicago doing my gang training at the National Crime Gang Research Institute around Center Research Center in Chicago One of the guys I met there was an Illinois state police Detective and his specialization was outlaw biker clubs And he he predicted to me that that some clubs were gonna start encroaching on Chicago and he said there was going to be a war and This was probably I don't know six seven years ago and the reason why I bring that up is At the time I was thinking okay. Here's the cop with this hyperbole like there's no more wars anymore There's no gang wars the cartels kill people over the place and we've said them and we've seen the Italian mafia Really ratchet the violence downward I say they were in the last decade right decades where murder is really not on the table anywhere near Yeah level it was before right so I was thinking about and even at that point The bikers that have been Relatively chill and I remember being I didn't say it to him But I remember being skeptical like they ain't gonna be any like or worse come on get out of here And now we're seeing I wouldn't say it's a war necessarily, but we're definitely seeing skirmishes you see two Yeah, two clubs couldn't could blow up three clubs in the pagans Mongols and outlaws that are all You know encroaching on each other's turf. Yeah, and kind of this this this game of Musical chairs and I Think there's a lot of uncertainty and and I think that the biker world in America seems to be going more towards The cartels and what was happening or what is happening in Canada with the Italian mafia where there's all this bloodshed As opposed to going in the direction of the Italians who are have moved to a place where violence is truly last resort But you know in in Chicago and this is like and it's not like They're in parts of Illinois or even parts of Chicago that Don't have a lot of outlaws like they went right to ground zero. I wanted you to address that how provocative This was to open up a chapter in Chicago went to the south side of Chicago, which is where the mother chapter is They call it the mother chapter. It's the you know the first-ever Outlaw chapter We've talked about history before some people date the history of the outlaws back to the 30s other people date it You know back to the early 60s the the way that they are, you know the modern-day Outlaw biker club can really be traced probably to the 60s but you know the south side of Chicago and When the Mongols got there, I guess there was some type of ceremonial That all the Mongols got on their bikes went to the mother chapter This was like in 2019 or 20 and they did like They circled the chapter There was like, you know 50 Mongols that were riding around the the mother club Announcing their presence with authority, I guess, you know to use a term from from bull Durham Where the pitcher told Kevin Costner the catcher I want to bring a fastball in the first pitch announced my presence with authority So the Mongols did not They weren't quiet when they came into town. They went right to the the into the Hornets nest where the the outlaws are headquartered and Like you said, it was very very provocative a year later a shooting Breaks out in a in a bar I'm the south side and then in early November in the Archer Heights Neighborhood, which is right by Midway Airport I'm the south side. It's like the heart of the south side in a bar called bar 171 there were outlaws that were there and Mongols showed up and You had a number of outlaws that were Wounded one Mongol was wounded I think there was like six or seven people that were shot in the altercation. Yeah, and you're reporting you have four Outlaws were okay, or no wait was that the no that was the you're talking about the first you're talking about the first shooting I believe the first shooting was in 21 the the retaliation for that shooting. Yeah was in November Okay, all right. So I was confused go ahead. I'm so there was a February 21 flare-up where some Outlaws got shot and then According to what the ATF is telling the media The the November 22 altercation at bar 171 Archer Heights was retaliation For the Mongols outlaw or for the Mongols shooting at some outlaws in 21 By the way, just for clarification. I'm looking at the official outlaws Website and there's good information on there and similar to what you were saying it officially starts in 1935 and then it evolves throughout the decades and then 63 is when they become in their words true 1% or right the club that existed from the mid 30s right the 60s really wasn't what is the outlaw today even though there might have been a you know an official founding of a group called the outlaws in Chicago. Yeah So I made it it's you know, I got tipped off five years ago And I think I might have been the first person in the country to write about the Mongols Starting to encroach on territory here in the Midwest. I got a call. I think in 2017 That there there had been some biker rallies in the Middle of the state and then in the southern part of the state that first part of 2017 where there were kind of suddenly there were a bunch of Mongols and people were wondering where do they come from? Why are they here? Is it you know, do they come in peace? Do they come looking for war? And we don't as of now we don't from what I understand there is no Mongol chapter in Michigan But it looks like that was again. I'm just I'm Speculating here, but it seems like what they were doing in 17 was a scouting mission of some sort to decide where they were going to put their Yeah It's very provocative because I know from some of the people that I've talked to in the past. I mean there's there were orders That if you see someone else's a club's patch you like kill on site. Yeah, like I mean no Joe Well, it's been so given a little history to the last time there was a biker war in Chicago Would have been in the mid 90s. So that's 25 years ago when the Hells Angels Who had never had a presence really in the Midwest before started to? try to come in and patched over some clubs in the Chicago area to I Don't think the Hells Angels themselves ever came in but they came in and they they aligned with Clubs that were rivals to the outlaws. I don't know if there was an ever actual Hells Angels chapter in Chicago I think there was one there was one in Rockford But there were a number of affiliate clubs in Chicago that were aligned with the Hells Angels that Taco Bowman who was really the Conan the Barbarian Richter of yesteryear? And Taco Bowman Taco Bowman was the godfather of the outlaws. He's a detroiter. He brought the Headquarters from Chicago to Detroit Or maybe it might have been in Indianapolis for a second before It hit Detroit, but the the headquarters for the outlaws internationally was in Detroit from them from the early 80s to around 2000 and Taco Bowman Kind of like what Keith Richter did a couple years ago where he declared war on anybody that stood in the way of the pagans expanding Taco Bowman declared war on Anybody that was coming in to Detroit or Chicago or Milwaukee And and the Hells Angels at that time were making a big effort to come into Chicago and you had I think at least for for murders that were tied to that That tension in 94 95 Are you're Have you been talking to some law enforcement sources in Chicago because I wonder because the guy I was talking to that this was you know, whatever six seven years ago And he was he was already worried about a war then I bet now things are pretty heightened awareness, huh? Well, I think what I when I talked to someone a couple weeks ago This this again, this is speculation. But yes, first, I'll say that they seem very concerned They predicted more violence in the in the near future And they said they wouldn't be shocked If all of a sudden you started to see pagans Coming up here as like reinforcements or to carve out their own territory or both maybe both Wow That that there could be a pagan chapter that's opened up in the Midwest. There have been really no pagans In you know in Michigan or Illinois or Wisconsin or Indiana, I know there have been pagans I think in certain You know, I know West Virginia may be near the Ohio border, but West Virginia Virginia Maryland Pennsylvania is their stronghold Conan the Barbarians from the Long Island chapter But I guess we could use this as a segue to Part of Richter's Expansion they weren't just going West they were going into the New England area And one of the first places that Conan had targeted to start patching over Clubs was in Rhode Island and The president of that club Derek McGuire the president of the Rhode Island pagans goes by the nickname the Big Tuna and Derek McGuire is a Husky boy. He's a younger guy. I think he's only he's 30 or something like that He's less. Is he younger? Yeah, he was younger than that and you know big guy Who who was the president of a club known as the Thug Riders? I think Yeah, he's 30 38. You're right and I don't know how he got hooked up with with Richter, but he took some trips from Rhode Island from the Providence area he went to see Richter in New York he went to go see Richter in the New Jersey in Pennsylvania in New Jersey, Philadelphia area to attend some some pagans functions and patched over all of his Thug Riders to become the first Pagan's Club chapter opened in New England and Which was traditionally Hell's Angels territory and outlaw a little bit back in the day Outlaws outlaws have been making a All these expansions. Yeah expansion campaigns are spawning other expansion campaigns. So you had the Richter blue blue wave mandate seems to have inspired the Mongols to try to expand into the Midwest and you've had the Outlaws and their new president Tommy. Oh, John Irmin who goes by the nickname Tommy. Oh, he's based on a buffalo He's been making a concerted effort to expand the outlaws brand in New England to combat The Pagan's push into New England. So the Hell's Angels even around there anymore. They're in New York I know Hell's Angels in New York. Hell's Angels are in Boston. Wow. They still have very strong Pres a presence a very strong presence in both Boston in New York the reason why I ask is because if you mean you're gonna start bumping into each other and well You already had a situation and I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, but when we're done talking about the Pagan's in Providence, we're gonna finish up by talking about a couple outlaws Legal issues that we touched on back in the summer, right and that have now been resolved shootings that have erupted as a result of some of these inter biker club squabbles and Give updates on where they stand but one of those in Fall River, Massachusetts was The outlaws facing off against a group called the Sidewinder's and another club and they were Hell's Angels affiliates Yeah, the issue that they that we're gonna talk about in tennis, Tennessee Were a group called the Kinfolk that eventually became the Pagan's right. We're affiliated with the Pagan's with that But McGuire cop the plea I'm looking at the doc. He's gonna do 10 years But what's what Jimmy and I were talking about off-air? What's what's interesting is it looked for a second as if he might have been able to beat the case because They tossed all the wire taps and there was a bunch of wire taps that they had Conan Richter Conan the barbarian Richter instructing Derek McGuire on How to become a Pagan and how to start the chapter and what to do and a lot of incriminating conversations If it would have gone to trial Jerry would have never seen it. Well, I heard it. Jerry would have never heard it And what was the controversy? They thought the warrant was weak or was it was a dirty warrant dirty warrant So explain that you have a legal background. I believe it was a technicality in the warrant I don't think it was anything malicious. Okay, like dirty in that way, right? but it was it was a tainted warrant and I it could be something as simple as And I don't know if this was the exact situation But I'm just going to give an example of how a warrant could be How on a technicality on a technicality a warrant could be deemed faulty. So let's say that they were Putting in a wire on a phone in Derek McGuire's house. Let's just for argument's sake say that and on the warrant the detective or the federal agent that's filling out the warrant says we're targeting mr. McGuire's house, which is a beige colored ranch But you find out that it's more of a it's more brown than beige That could be a faulty warrant right there. Yeah, yeah That's could be a technicality or it's red. It's not beige right and it was a mistake on what the color of the house was Yeah, that'd be a classic technicality. Yeah So I don't know exactly what caused the The term is fruit of the poisonous tree It could be it could be in some cases more like The intel was bad like from from someone who it turns out Yeah, there's no longer considered a reliable informant credible informant that could complicate that But yeah, I'm looking at some of the documentation here and this is something Scott I were talking about earlier, which is This guy the guy in Providence, I mean, these are these are all organized crime charges. This is not like just a Solid or something, right? This isn't a fight at a bar that spills out of the parking lot where someone gets shot Right. Um, this was a these were racketeering offenses. It was a investigation owners operation patched out and Yeah, it runs the gamut and He got via McGuire got violated on his bond for attending ceremonial pagan Functions in As a part of the effort to build up the pagans brand in Rhode Island, there was a chapter that I believe was opened up in Pawtucket on which is another city in Rhode Island and As part of the bond the McGuire got out on the and he was being held without bond Before they threw that worn out and they threw the worn out it allowed McGuire to get out I think he served a year and a half Got out for the last year and a half or so and then got put back in Maybe six seven months ago because he was caught Brazenly attending this new Chapter opening where he showed up on his bike with his girlfriend and It was like from what I read it was like or heard it was like the scene in Donnie Brasco where You know, they're all standing outside. Oh, and they're waiting for the flag. You gotta show the flag and he had a bunch of pagans outside the clubhouse waiting for McGuire to get there so they could greet him. There were people watching snapping surveillance photos And and he was he was violated. I think he also went to a Christmas party back in last Christmas in 21 So he they caught him twice Well, what's it called meeting with with people he shouldn't be meeting with convicted felons. Yeah, I'm looking at the some of the charges here Possession of a firearm while delivering or manufacturing controlled substance. I think he was in possession of firearms, which was a violation of his condition too and I think cocaine Greater than one kilo of cocaine You know looking at the other charges here Conspiracy drug felony a lot of it was drugs some of it was some of it I think was straw man or like selling weapons to yeah, and then I know that there were you know some instances where McGuire is going to other smaller clubs in The New England area and trying to recruit them and in some cases Allegedly, I don't know if these I don't know if this made it in to the indictment I don't think it did but from talking some of my law enforcement sources some of this recruiting could be perceived as As Attempted extortion. Yeah, where they're basically saying hey come along and and join the the Pagan's Parade and if they get any resistance It it almost becomes a muscle job where it's like okay now. We're not asking you to join the Pagan's brand We're telling you sure right this is this is some of the reporting the state police during the rate initial raid From a few years ago sees were 53 illegal guns our large quantity of marijuana crack cocaine heroin Silencers a rocket launcher Jesus So anyhow, I the reason why the reason why I bring this up is There's the kind of a debate over Without all bikers are they are they involved in organized crime or are they just you know hellraisers who sometimes get to you Know go too far Now people in law enforcement, of course say they're organized. I mean to me When we're talking about the the big five or one percenters these organizations exists first and foremost as a criminal enterprise and I don't think there's much debate about it. I mean there might be instances within that conspiracy where People are just hanging out drinking beers and watching football together. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Of course. Yeah, but I think People that become members of those organizations are expect to earn and money flows up That that's you know classic organized crime Yeah, and that's the important of the distinction of one percent too because there are plenty of biker clubs that are not One that's that's the whole point of the distinction right 99% are just guys who are motorcycle enthusiast and hellraisers and But but that's that differentiates from the one percent guys are And in the last thing I'll say about the Providence situation then we'll move on and Give people updates on what we were talking about in the summer with those shootings But you know, we mentioned this earlier, but Derek one choir was in direct contact with Conan the barbarian Conan was You know relaying Orders directly to him. There was no middleman Maguire and and Maguire Subordinates were traveling in mass to visit and pay homage to Conan the barbarian. Yeah, so I mean this is He might I Don't want to say he looks you know, he's a big guy They call him the big tuna But this guy was a major player Conan the barbarian more looks more like a guy Out of central casting as a scary Biker boss in the same way that Taco Bowman did Derek Maguire kind of looks a little Goofy, I guess. Maybe that's the wrong way to say it. He just He looks like a like some of you want to Yeah, like I don't want to think you can come go and give a hug to but he does he looks like a like a like a teddy bear Hmm, and I'm sure that I'm sure that that might be lie a A darker side to his personality. I'm just guessing. I don't know. I don't I don't know Derek Maguire But yeah, I just wanted to point out that looks might be deceiving in some of that He might not look that harmful when Conan the barbarian looks like someone in a Martin Scorsese movie About hardcore bikers But I just want to make the point that Maguire was dealing directly with with Richter and Richter obviously trusted Maguire To help with the with the move To expand in New England. It was the first person that he really made contact with in that part of the country and You know, it's been full speed ahead since then so you know Derek Maguire is a is I think someone to watch For in the future, I mean he's gonna be gone for the next eight years nine years There's still be young when he gets out. We'll get out. He'll be under 50 and you know, maybe he's someone that you know has Larger leadership potential. Yeah So let's go on and talk about a couple of the cases that were Still being adjudicated back in the summer when we did our last biker episode two outlaw shootings Um, well really three Well, let's let's give updates on three. There were One in Oklahoma one in Massachusetts and one in Tennessee so We'll start with the one in Tennessee in Clarksville you had an incident at a Longhorn's day house where Three outlaws got into it in the parking lot with members of a group that was then known as the kinfolk But since then the kinfolk have become the pagans and the kinfolk at that point back in I think 2019 I think Were like on some type of probationary period trying to become pagans And fighting with the outlaws is a great way to be to show the pagans that uh, you that you're you're um You know, you're you're you're you're a true you're a true blue pagan and want want to uh push forward their agenda which is to to uh You know fly the flag and especially fly the flag and and parts of the country they had not ever been in Clarksville has for decades um been Outlaw territory it's um It's on it's on the border of uh Kentucky I believe and I think you said and you're reporting that prior to this Those guys were on relatively good terms with those outlaws that they knew who they were and and the outlaw Let me let me um split a hair here The president of the kinfolk one of the guys that was killed in this incident John all good all good who they called deacon deacon was on good terms with all of the outlaws. Okay um He was this, you know, og in the area even though he wasn't an outlaw Yeah, but was I think known as more of a diplomat wasn't known as a violent bike crazy biker all these people involved in this incident and in Clarks uh Clarksville were all military of that so they all had Yeah weapons training and yeah, but you had a situation where you had a um Prospect an outlaw prospect that again was probably trying to prove his merits to his His brothers or the people, you know, the the members of the outlaws that that we're going to bring him in To the fold as a fully patched member. He was going to meet these guys He's driving past a longhorn steakhouse. He sees Some motorcycles in the parking lot that he doesn't recognize he goes into the longhorn steakhouse Sees these members of the kinfolk sees this guy named Jimbo Ramsey Depending on who you talk to he either grabbed Jimbo Ramsey's kinfolk Vest or he tapped Ramsey on the shoulder either way he made contact with Ramsey Ramsey got upset by it The prospect leaves the longhorn steakhouse goes and meets up with two of his outlaws Fully patch members of the outlaws might craft and jackie davis known as hulk and rapper And they meet up at a at a bar called a tilted kilt. They're there for about 45 minutes They leave the tilted kilt they go back to that longhorn steakhouse Um at that point it looks like they're going to try to work it out with with deacon because they know deacon but Ramsey By reading I read the police reports it looked like ramsey like lost his mind And ramsey started in the middle of the parking lot pulls out his gun and starts waving it around screaming Very erratically threat, you know making threats swearing Deacon is trying to calm him down. You had the other outlaws that were In the same vicinity I guess deacons started screaming at the prospect saying this is all your fault. Basically. Yeah. Yeah the prospect then head butted deacon and then the shooting erupted and uh Deacon was killed and jimbo ramsey was killed Although it according to your reporting Just if we get into the specifics all good Grab the outlaw first. Okay, right. So he put his hands on him first Puts his hands on the prospect right to basically say you're a dumb ass. You caused all this. I'm mad at you Yeah, but if you put your hands, right it's sort of like a talent like made guy Like yeah, but this is a made guy if you want to sure you're Hands on a guy that's almost almost made. Yeah not made yet. Right. Yeah. Yeah um although then you then it gets political here because Outlaws carry more weight than some associate right. So where's the where's the uh, you know, I don't know how you Negotiate or navigate through that but at the end of the day Uh, might craft jackie davis and the prospect. Uh, zack to black are all charged with first-degree murder Which seemed like an overcharge. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and It's it's been resolved now where craft Davis and tablack have pled guilty to manslaughter a second-degree murder And in exchange for a sentence of three years They've been in jail now since 2019. So they're basically agreeing that Will will cop to a manslaughter the state will acknowledge that You as the shooters had a right to defend yourself, right? And we're going to give you a sentence that you've basically already served So all these guys if they're not out now, they'll be out by early january or february probably And it will all be behind them. Um, they're not looking at life in prison anymore. And it looks like they are Vindicated to a degree and then and since then that associate club patched over to the yeah Since then the kinfolk are now the pagans and now there's a pagans chapter in carxville Whoa, so What where does this where this seems like this there's potential for you to get really ugly And I think I said this but I just want to reiterate carxville is on the kentucky border. It's almost more kentucky than tennessee Um, I didn't really even know what carxville was until I had to look it up and you know, it's not in the memphis area It's not in the natural area It's not in the chattanooga area. It's kind of its own little world in tennessee And so we know that similar to to the I wonder what your sources are saying because we know similar to the italians when when there are these territorial disputes or Disputes over rackets. They have sit-downs the bikers do too. They have their own version of those Is as ever since this thing, I mean are there have there been Any diplomatic I don't know but I would even just again Speculating here. I would guess that the fact that deacon all good was killed in this altercation Doesn't bode well for a future. That's what I mean diplomatic relations when he was the guy He he was the the voice of reason and what I heard and now he's gone, right? Yeah Right, that's what I mean. This is the guy that had the good the good relationship with the outlaws, right? Right now. He's out of he's gone. So I just wonder what the future I think there's just Kind of everything right now With the outlaws is is tenuous In regards to some of these territorial disputes. I mean, I don't see them going away. I don't see the pagans Picking up and saying all right, you know the blue wave mandate that was cool for four or five years But we're done with it. Yeah, I don't see the mongols saying, you know We flirted with coming in Chicago But now the newspapers and the atf and and Bernstein and butch lotto over at og podcast They've got a hold of it and they're talking about it. So maybe we'll call it a day Yeah, and what just just had a sense of scale A chapter like in a smaller town like this Are we talking like a dozen members? I mean, what would you say? I don't know Okay, I don't know Because in like a bigger chapters like in places like chicago and detroit you can have a lot of guys But some of these smaller towns I think tend to as you might imagine that I wouldn't be shot in parks for lead 2030 guys. Okay. All right um, let's move on to Oklahoma This will be quick Uh, there was a shooting on an expressway or highway in Oklahoma between pagans and outlaws Pagans had not ever been in Oklahoma before the last couple years. They've come in And immediately have butted heads with the outlaws the outlaws had been I don't want to say dormant in Oklahoma City, but Uh, a lot of guys had been incarcerated from a bus in the 2000s A lot of those guys started to come out of prison in the 2010s And I think that outlaw chapter Is starting to kind of reform To to where it was in the 90s and in 2000s and that that chapter the Oklahoma City chapter was open to 1977 um, the guy one of the original seven um og members of Oklahoma City outlaws was a guy named arlo nelson virginal Nelson they call him arlo um, there's Debate about what arlo's position right now is the government will tell you he's the godfather of the outlaws in Oklahoma The outlaws will tell you he is a very legendary outlaw that There's a lot of reverence towards but it's not the boss. He's not okay. He's not the shot caller, right? Either way, he was arrested for murder in that shooting And he's been exonerated uh, it's been the the um security footage of the the um Places of business that lined that highway where the shooting occurred showed that um Nelson wasn't one of the shooters um, that it actually could have come from one of the pagans The pagan that was killed in the incident was a military vet younger guy and uh But but arlo, but arlo nelson is now uh exonerated from that doesn't have to worry about a murder case hanging over his head and we'll go back to either Leading leading the outlaws in Oklahoma City and putting that back together to the way it was in in his heyday he's a you know an older man in his 70s, I believe or he'll just be what they claim he is which is kind of an elder statesman There for counsel and advice, but yeah, not central to the america day-to-day shot shot calling Yes, another thing that I just think of like comparative is um How some of the high-ranking guys are Directly Implicated in these crimes. So like yeah like maguire like I mean he was the president's president selling drugs selling weapons Some cases guys implicate in shootings. I mean, I know this guy was exonerated, but um Some other crime organizations usually the the the privilege of being the boss is you should be insulated Right that you're not you're not handling dope. You're not you're not shooting anyone you you you did those things coming up, but like um, that's the that should be the the privileges that go with being the shot caller is that um, you're insulated that the rank and file are the guys on the street So it's kind of interesting that's cultural differences Let's finish up with uh, what happened in in massachusetts and this was one of The cases that I I enjoyed uh deep diving Because you know, we always talk about our love of pop culture And finding you know where art imitates life or life imitates art And uh in in the situation that occurred in uh, massachusetts You had a a guy, uh Little joey or little joe. No, noe Who a lot of people call the real life jacks teller He's another younger guy a younger guy whose dad was a founding member of the outlaws in new england and bought in the boston area Came in I believe the the boston outlaws were formed in the at some point in the 80s um his dad the joe dogs was the president of the brockton chapter, I believe And uh, so he's got the pedigree right and he he's not he doesn't look exactly like jacks teller, but there's some You know blonde hair and a younger guy that's being kind of groomed for leadership has a lot of swagger And seems to be popular guy and there was a incident a couple years ago Where he was charged with a first degree murder um, it looked a lot like at the very least manslaughter What it really looked like was self-defense. Yes, right and He went on trial a first degree murder trial um last month or two months ago And the jury acquitted him very very quickly. Yeah, it was a situation where Him and his uncle and his girlfriend or his fiance had gone for a drink um They lived in fall river massachusetts and and little joe. No had been sent From brockton to fall river to try to get the fall river outlaws chapter up and running This is all again all part of this expansion The outlaw expansion in response to the pagan expansion in new england, uh, tommy. Oh And i don't know who Told little joe no or no. I don't know if it's pronounced no or noe. It's noe But he went and has helped over the last couple years get the fall river chapter up and moving fall river is this um This mill town located halfway between providence and boston um It's like an ethnic melting pot A lot of italian a lot of uh portuguese um It's it's an interesting area and um There was a bar. I think it was called jc's. It was a popular biker spot They had put in a a rule Where I think there was like there was like a no color rule because there was a lot of biker dust ups and um Little joe and his fiance and his uncle went for a drink. They did not have their colors on I think they took their colors off particularly specifically to go to this place right when they went there They were encountered by a bunch of sidewinders And uh, there was another club's name and i'm blanking out right now the Uh, maybe the black hand. I think it was called but there there were two clubs that were affiliated with the hell's angels aligned with each other in fall river Had issues with the outlaws because of the dispute between the hell's angels and outlaws which which go back quite a long quite a long while and These guys based on the security footage from The establishment that night The whole like hour hour and a half that little joe and his uncle and his fiance are there These rival bikers are going back and forth from the parking lot. They're on the phone It looks like they're calling for people to come and and start up a fight. Yeah, and little joe Is leaving and it looked like the The sidewinders knew that the reinforcements hadn't come yet And they wanted to stall little joe so that They didn't leave right for all the rest of the sidewinders showed up And uh, so there was an altercation as little joe was leaving to try to go to the parking lot One of the sidewinders. I think one of the leaders Uh got into his face and they had to be separated by staff And then little joe and his fiance and the uncle come out to the parking lot get on their bikes And right as they get on their bikes, there's about 22 Sidewinders that show up and they surround them and they surround them and uh At one point one was was swinging a hammer at the fiance almost hit the fiance. Yeah, no that was Almost hit the fiance little joe had a gun that at that point he pulls out he had a permit for it shows it And at that point they dispersed from little joe and its fiance and they go and attack joe's uncle and as Um, I don't have the article in front of me And i'm blanking on the name of the guy that died who was killed but the guy that was killed was a sidewinder that had a object A blunt blunt instrument that he was swinging. Is it a pipe or something? I can't remember pipe was about to swing it and bash Little joe's uncle's head in And little joe shot him and killed him. Yeah And by the way, his uncle still had to go to the hospital for a crack skull Yeah, it was in the hospital for a period of time So it definitely did not look like a first-degree murder. No, I can't believe that Yeah, I mean that both of these situations It seemed like there was overcharging going on by the prosecutors just because they were charging out all bikers Yeah, they right that I was just Suspecting that it was political, but it was a you know, it was a week-long trial in fall river um And I think the jury was out for like a half hour Yeah, I mean, obviously I wasn't there. I didn't see any surveillance video But from your reporting and some people that police report. I read the police report Yeah, and people that have contacted us on social media Um, it seems to me like it was a very cut and dry self-defense Um, and that and all likelihood the prosecutor was well, there's you have a political thing It's like a it's a it's a it's a law within the self-defense law. That's like a it's a third person duty Where like the the state was arguing You that was your uncle had a right to defend himself at that point You had no right to shoot into a crowded right group of people um, but there's a law within self-defense that if If a third person is in eminent danger of being killed you can step in and and uh Kill the person that's going to kill The person yeah, yeah, I mean god forbid you're at a Public space and some mass shooters there if you if you got a piece on you Oh, we saw it. It happened to come out. It happened a couple months ago in indianapolis. Yeah It was right after the the july 4th shooting in um in highland park, illinois and a week or two after that A guy went into a a mall in indianapolis and an open fire and before he hit anybody A dude that had a a permit to carry. Yeah killed him. Yeah, good. Yeah Good, but uh, so yeah, we just wanted to give you updates on that but uh, you know, this was uh A nice little primer for where we are headed into 2023 with the biker landscape in America right now. It's you know there is a lot a lot of uh simmering brewing Tension that is kind of undercutting all of these Clubs um And I at least in the time that I've covered organized crime And for the last 15 years and I've covered bikers that whole time. I I don't recall a time where there was this much rivalry and and bubbling animosity between multiple Biker groups in multiple parts of the country. Yeah, it seemed to be there seems to be an incident that's popping up every couple months Yeah, that's what I mean. That's why I was skeptical when the illinois uh state Police guy said they thought there could be a war because I they're always skirmishes, but they're usually very localized This is this is different. This seems like a A national thing not not just a some kind of a localized skirmish between rival clubs There's nothing I want to mention as we close out As the pagans have decided to align With the mongols as well as some other hispanic I've heard some latin kings might be involved in some of that On Chicago Well, just what the pagans are doing in terms of who they're aligning with. Oh, yeah, I've heard that in their push west and up into the northeast That in addition to aligning with the mongols, they've aligned with the latin kings. Wow the response by the outlaws has been to align with some African-american street gangs, which is unique. Yeah and Reestablish and reaffirm their ties with the Italians Um, and you see that in buffalo With with tommy. Oh, yeah, who I don't know really I know a lot about conan the barbarian There really hasn't been as much out there to consume about tommy. Oh, I can only Glean what I can from my street sources and my law enforcement But there's no like court documents really to dive into Who tommy. Oh is but we know for sure That tommy. Oh is very very close to the buffalo Italian mafia Yeah, he works at the strip club that is controlled by the buffalo crime family called pharaohs. He's the head of security the entire Security detail at pharaohs is made up of outlaws And pharaohs is owned by the nephew of the reputed to darrow godfather of buffalo big toe to darrow well then kings have a lot of A lot of muscle man, you know what I mean? That's to be pretty formidable if they if they're forming alliances with But that makes sense because they because they aligned with the mongols Right and that shows that the leadership of the pagans now Richter and and and I should also mention Richter should be coming out in the next couple months He's been in prison for two years on a on a gun case and and he'll be out by Early 23 and it should be interesting to see how his return to the streets is is welcomed and and what it ignites but You know with You know with with what we're seeing now with the the outlaws It doesn't surprise me that they're kind of doubling back because we've known that there's been in a Parallel or an alliance between the outlaws and in the italian mafia going back in Detroit, chicago, mowaki But just like it was kind of Eyebrow raising to hear initially a couple years ago that the pagans and he and also let's outside of like mongols and vahgos and banditos who have the Hispanic memberships Most of those other biker groups are like white nationalists. No a hundred percent. So to hear You know the first here that richter was Encouraging the recruitment and the filling of the ranks with Hispanics his number two his vice president Hugo nueves who they call zero Is the number two man in all the whole pagans organization. He's Hispanic So that was a little eyebrow raising but then now to hear that the reaction or the The counterpoint to that or the you know the chess game Is then for the outlaws to go into chicago or into detroit or wherever and And link up or click up with with african-american street gangs. I mean that's just That seems a little hard for me to believe. Yeah, well, I mean Kanye's out there Repping hitler and the nazi He's a black Stranger things it speaks to where but doesn't it's in both of those Strategic decisions by richter and by by tommy out. I mean don't In both of those organizations don't that speak to where we are here in the 2020s and how You know It just so we've talked about with the detroit into chicago mafia families It doesn't matter if you're italian It doesn't if you can make them money if you can help them reach their goals if you can help them push the needle Expand the brand. Yeah You know, it's it's It's it's tribalism that it's like And it's purest form. Well, I mean, uh multiculturalism is uh is a real thing and um It's happening in society at the macro level and throughout corporations and higher ed and everything and so It we shouldn't be surprised then that those trends also manifest themselves in the underworld I guess I said it's tribalism. That's purest form. That's actually probably false. It's probably The opposite of that. No, that's that's what I was saying multicultural. It's like it's it's a repudiation of that Entrenched also right tribalism tribalism would you would be yeah introverted you wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't fuck with people from the outside but no, I mean multiculturalism it's it's it's the reality and so I don't think we should be surprised that um those trends uh emerge in the underworld just like Social media is something that's in the mainstream And it didn't take long before I can't imagine a world without social media Right, so so let's just finish up. I'm gonna get a I'm gonna get a a release date on rickter and that's how we're gonna end um I think it's march But you know, I think our next episode That we do biker wise will probably be When when conan gets out and we'll maybe take the temperature I'll talk to some people that In the pagans organization and talk about his return because I'm sure It will be with quite a lot of fanfare for him to come back. He has a beloved figure in the pagans, you know, he is a true force of nature A lot of people compare him to taco bowman and I think that's an app comparison Um just a force of personality Okay, so this says that he should be out in july Which means he'll be in a halfway house By march So he's 63 right now. He's in new jersey So I'm looking at this right now. So he's been serving his time in new jersey So i'm pretty sure He ain't that far removed from from shotgun on the streets, even though he's locked up even though he's given Away the president title a guy named big bob frances took his place He's a seat, you know from when I from when I've heard it's it's kind of a situation where big bob is just keeping the seat warm big bob was this kind of long time Outlaw that uh people thought, you know, let's Give him a leadership position as a Reward for all of his loyalty, but you say all you mean out and a generic outlaw biker Right because right because they're pagans. Yeah. Yes. Sorry. Sorry. Yes. I can't remember is conan in state prison or fed Conan's in feds. He's in the okay. So he's in new jerseys. I'm sure I mean that's Right, I mean jerseys the the heart of of pagan territory So I'm sure people have been going to visit him and he's been able to get word out on the street Even if big bob is the official President there, but I don't I'd be I'd be shocked if ricketer comes out In the spring and and by the summer isn't leading the pagans again. Yeah well, we'll monitor it and It seems to be a popular topic with our audience. So we're happy to to discuss it So anyhow, thank you for listening again. Please follow us on social media And please subscribe. Uh, I am jimmy butchillado and we are out