 Mae'n fawr, iawn. Gwelch i chi, mae'n gweithio i gweithio unig o'r gallu ddaeth i gyfnodol y Pwysigol Lleodraeth o Sefydl Lleodraethol, yn ei wneud yn ymgyrchu. Mae'n gweithio i'r gweithio i'r lleolach o'r gweithio. Mae'n mwyaf yn ogylch o'r hyfforddiant bwysigol, ac mae'n gweithio i'r gweithio'r cyd-doedd o'r cyfnodol o'r cyfnodol o'r cyfnodol o'r cyfnodol o'r cyfnodol, are asked to know that this meeting is being filmed and live streamed. By your presence you are deemed to have consented to be filmed and to the use of these images and sound recordings for a webcast. May I please remind Members that when speaking they should not disclose any personal information of any individual that this might infringe the rights of that individual and breach the Data Protection Act. Please make sure your microphone is switched off unless you are invited to speak for those participating remotely. When you are invited wirwch o myfyrddiaeth, ble fel hynny yn ei fod yn syniud y celf metres yn eu caelio. a dweud ydych chi fod yn gwybod y celfnedd gynnig o'r myfyrddiaeth eich cyffredin, fod yn siwer o'r meddwl i'r meddwl yn teimlo, ac yn meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl, nad ychydig yn y ciwbchio i'n meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl o'i'r meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl. I will ask the Vice-Chair to note the order of speakers based virtually and in the room. Committee members present in the Chamber are renowned by each of you to introduce yourselves. Members, after I call your name, please introduce yourself and say which ward you represent. As I said earlier, my name is Councillor Stephen Drew and I am one of the members for Camborne. My Vice-Chair is Councillor Grant Coe. Thank you, Chair, and I'm one of the members for the Fenditon and Forgorn Ward. Councillor Anna Bradnam. Good evening, Chair. I'm Councillor Anna Bradnam and I'm one of the members for Milton and Waterbeach Ward. And attending for the first time after his recent election, Councillor Tom Byrngott. Councillor Tom Byrngott representing Longstant and Northstone, Okington and Westwood. Well, most welcome. Councillor Libby Earle. Microphone. Councillor Libby Earle representing Swarston Cresorston Ward. Thank you, Councillor Peter Fane. Peter Fane, Shelford Ward. And Councillor James Hobro. Good evening, Chair. My name is James Hobro. I'm the member for Foxton Ward. And Councillor John Lovelock. Good evening, Chair. John Lovelock, one of the members for Cottenham and Rempton. Thank you, and Councillor Richard Stobart. Thank you, Chair. Richard Stobart, I'm a member for Gertan Ward, along with my fellow councillor. Gertan also includes Drydraiton and Madingley. Fantastic. Thank you. And councillor Aidan Van Derwer. Yes, I'm Aidan Van Derwer. I'm representing the villages of Barringston Ward. Okay. And are there any other members present either in the Chamber or online? I believe that Councillor John Williams is online. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, Councillor John Williams, one of the members for Fenton Dyn and Folburn Ward, and also the lead member for resources. Thank you. And Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you, Chair. Heather Williams, I represent the Mordans Ward, and I'm substituting for Councillor Sue Ellington. Thank you very much. And Councillor Helen Leaming. Thank you, Chair. And Councillor Helen Leaming, one of the members for Cumborn Ward. Excellent. We also have with us several officers in the Chamber and Ainsworth. Thank you, Chair. I'm Ainsworth. I'm the Chief Operating Officer for the Council. And Peter Maddock. Thank you, Chair. My name is Peter Maddock, and I'm the Head of Finance. Ian Senior. Thank you. I'm Dym, the Scrutiny at Government Advisor. And Aaron Clarke. Thank you, Chair. Democratic Services Technical Officer. Thank you. Online, we have Peter Campbell. Hello, Peter Campbell, Head of Housing. Thank you. And Bodia Sam. Good evening all. I'm Bodia Sam, Head of Climate, Environment and Waste. Thank you. And Rory McKenna. Good evening, Chair and Members. Rory McKenna, and I'm the Monitoring Officer for the Council. Okay. I believe that is everyone in terms of Councillors and officers, unless anyone feels they have been left out. Ah, there you go. My apologies, Stephen. And Stephen Kelly. Excellent. Hello, Stephen Kelly, Joint Director of Planning. Okay, excellent. So, I will try and make that statement again. I now believe that is everyone who is present either in the Chamber or online. I'm looking colleagues. Nobody is shaking their head at me. We will consider that to be the case. Excellent. And move on to... Sorry, I haven't finished my first bit. So, I can confirm that the meeting is quartered. There are being at least four committee members here in the Chamber. If at any time a member leaves the meeting, would they please make that fact known to me so it can be recorded in the minutes? Please note, to small correction, that Item 7 of the Agenda Work Programme, the local plan is now scheduled to go to Cabinet in February next year. The Screeter and Overview Committee will now be meeting on Thursday, the 12th of January, not Tuesday, the 10th, as previously published. Finally, a report from this meeting will be presented to Cabinet on the 6th of February, 2023. If neither the Vice-Chair nor I are able to attend this meeting, would any other committee members be prepared to act as spokesperson at Cabinet on the 6th of February, 2023? Councillor Richard Stobart. Shall I speak? I am due to have a regular meeting after Cabinet, so it seems appropriate that I go to Cabinet. Thank you very much, Councillor Stobart. Unless anyone else would like to grapple Councillor Stobart for this responsibility. No excellence, Councillor Stobart is yours, we appreciate that. Thank you very much. Item 2 is Apologies. Are there any apologies for absence? There are several. From this committee, councillors Ellington, Sallion Hart and Judith Rippeth. And we also have apologies from the leader of the council, Brigitte Smith and Bill Hanley, who is lead Cabinet member for communities. Thank you very much. And Declarations of Interest. Members are required to declare the existence and nature of any interest which affects or relates to any item of business to be considered. If the interest becomes a plan during the meeting, then the member should bring it to the attention of officers at that time. Do any members have interests to declare in relation to any item of business on this agenda? Councillor Stobart. Thank you, Chair. I'm not sure how it would relate to only the items, but as a general background that I'm director of South Cambridgeshire Investment Partnership Skip and also South Cambridgeshire Project SEP. May have some bearing, but we'll see. Thank you very much. Always best to err on the side of the portion. Any other members need to raise a declaration of interest at this point? No. So, if an interest suddenly becomes a power late in the meeting, please raise it at that point. So, first of all, for minutes of the last meeting, committee members have had a chance to read the minutes. Are there any issues of accuracy? I understand that Councillor John Williams will be added to the attendance list and the Councillor fame would like to make a comment before I invite the joint director of planning and economic development to respond. Councillor fame. I've just felt that the minutes of the last meeting in relation to get a point on planning didn't really pick up. I felt that the joint director of planning was able to make some very useful bring to our attention some very useful information. This is in relation to KPIs PN 510-512 when we discussed those. I thought it was important that we captured the gist of those. There were also offers to bring further matters back to this committee or this meeting. Again, I felt that it might be helpful to reflect that in minutes. Given that I've lost the exact wording of what I suggested. That would probably be very helpful if Herring Clark could do that. Just please. Thanks very much. I might then have… Sorry, Chair. Could we clarify? Are we being shown the suggested alternate wording? The pop is the extract on the minutes as is. Yes. Thank you, Chair. I think I've put the suggested wording in italics. That's what I wasn't expecting here. But I don't think there's any need to record if you don't record the whole discussion. The point was that the director of planning was able to refer to tables produced, I think, by Matt Hull, shows applications which fall outside the timescale and he offered to explain further in a subsequent meeting of the committee. There was also, for me, Councillor Heather Williams raised some points to which again the director was able to give some very useful replies and again there was talk of the I think you, Chair, offered to look at this and come back to this at a future meeting, but this one or some other meeting. So I've had discussion with Stephen Kelly in preparation for today's meeting and he is in a position to provide further information at this point. So I will refer to him now. Stephen. Thank you, Chair. Yes, the question, I think the outstanding question because there was a discussion on this point was related to the percentage of applications that we were reporting that as in time that had been subject to an extension of time because the process provides for in the government's performance statistics is either the decision is made in 8, 13 or 16 weeks, which is the kind of default or in accordance with the timescale agreed with the applicant and the question that was asked last time is how many of the applications that we were reporting as meeting that target, how many of them involved extensions of time. Now I didn't have at the time of the last committee meeting, I didn't have that information to hand but I did highlight the fact that we do report it and given that we were talking about quarter two icon and the quarter two performance report, it seemed appropriate to pick July, August and September as the process for giving you some information about that. So in relation to major applications, 85% of the major applications had some form of agreement of an extension of time. That's not surprising because major applications generally involve section 106 agreements and involve committee decisions and so we do generally seek to work with a timetable with applicants. Of the minor applications and others, obviously much higher volume but the corresponding figures are around 90% for minor applications, those are up to 10 houses or slightly more complex commercial schemes and that is quite a high figure at 90% of the 97 decisions that we issued in time, 148 decisions overall in July to September but is partly a consequence of the ongoing programme of clearance of our backlog that accrued through COVID that some of these applications with the agreement of applicants have agreed time scales for them. On the small schemes on the household type applications, single dwellings and so forth, around 69% of applications that were reported as being in time in the last quarter had extensions of time agreed with applicants and we have until recently had a bit of a challenge in our validation team with a backlog of applications that at its peak was about five weeks. Now five weeks out of an eight week programme made it very difficult to either bring things to committee or to undertake the consultation process so we had to introduce more extensions of time than would be desirable. At the last meeting I referred to the other KPI which related to the average number of weeks for a householder application and I indicated to the committee that we were looking at that much more focused as being a key indicator of what the experience of or the lived experience of applicants in South Cambridge was like and in a way that is a measure that we expect the government to increasingly start to focus on. It's not actually a formal measure at the moment as we head forwards. Part of the cause of the large number of extensions of time there were overall 296 decisions in that quarter for householder applications in South Cams was as I said the validation backlog but I'm pleased to report that as of this week through the hard work of the team there is no backlog in validation there are something like 26 applications currently sitting waiting to be validated compared with 300 that we had at our peak and so we finished the year and indeed prepare for the four day week trial in a very strong position from that so that we hope to be able to ensure that the experience of people going forwards is of timely and prompt decision making and not waiting for a back not dealing with the backlog. Chair what I would propose to do is to write and circulate to all members of the committee this information because I've just given it to you verbally and it can perhaps be recorded as the minutes. The second question was around non-determination appeals and how many of them how many of the major applications had non-determination appeals whilst I've got one or two that I'm just checking the figures on because the period is over two years I don't believe that there's a significant number of them but I'll have to confirm that in my note that I send on this in writing to to the committee members into into course but I anticipate that by the end of next week. Okay great Stephen thank you very much for that but Councillor Fane any further comments at this point? Well thank you chair that that was a very helpful explanation from from Mr Kelly and I think it's such important that I'll minute should capture the essence of that. Thank you. Councillor Bradlon your hand was up a little bit earlier before Stephen Kelly spoke. Thank you so much. The question that Councillor Fane identified was he asked that the key performance indicators should differentiate between exactly those points that Mr Kelly has hopefully made. He said that there should be a differentiation in the KPI in other words we should have one KPI for those that are determined within the period set by statutory targets and one KPI for those set when there has been an extension of time and I just wanted to ensure and that is exactly what has been captured in the minutes and so I just wanted to confirm that that was something that would be taken forward. So we've received the information from Stephen Kelly there which would provide the answer to that question going forward so therefore clear the information is available and we will look to make sure that that information is provided to members going forward. A different thing. Stephen Kelly has offered to provide that to us for this data that he asked about but what Councillor Fane was asking was that the key performance indicator in the register should include those that differentiation that's my understanding of yeah so hence why I'm saying that we will make sure that that is what is provided going forward in terms of that information. Okay are there any other councillors who wish to speak at this point before we move on to the next stage? I don't see any hands on line or is any one around that. Okay so therefore accepting the amendment to the minutes that Councillor Fane suggested with then the answer suggested at the given there coming into the minutes um can we ask for agreement from councillors with the minutes as proposed with the amendments that have been suggested? Agreed. Agreed. Okay everyone agreed excellent thank you very much um I'll just ask Ian is that sufficiently clear what we have discussed there? Absolutely I'll I'll write something out and share it with you and with that councillor Fane. Absolutely just considering obviously we've had that conversation and the report and then Councillor Badden and I have discussed it further so I'll make sure that we're all on the same page as it were in that regard. Excellent okay thank you very much which moves us on to point five which is the public questions so for public questions um we did receive one request to remember the public to make a statement which was refused as it was submitted late so there are no public questions this evening which moves us on to point six on our agenda yes just a matter of observation I think you might be funny but your computer at your laptop is actually blocking the microphone might be helpful to put the microphone to one side. So is it your view that I need to move my microphone in front of the computer? Okay then I shall do that for you okay. Okay so that's actually better yes I should try not to take that in any other way than it being helpful. Okay excellent so that brings us to point six which is the general fund medium term financial strategy which obviously we've helped people invited with both document and the appendix A and appendix B so at this point I shall open up to questions from members who would like to go first councillor Bradnan you are first and obviously anyone else please raise your hand all but the message in the chat and councillor can then note you down councillor Bradnan. Sorry would we normally receive the report from Mr Maddick first? Okay what we have been doing for the last few meetings is we haven't been asking for officers to make presentation if in advance of the meeting officers who have the report request that they will make presentation then we will provide them with time but otherwise the assumption would be that members have read and that the officer is confident enough that it will be clear in that regard but obviously there may be a case of where it's necessary. Okay that's fine so I just wanted to ask Mr Maddick at item 17 on page 15 at the bottom of the paragraph it was referring to the fact that Bank of England base rate has been increasing during the financial year 2022-23 with the base rate now at 3% but of course as of today I think it's gone up to 3.5% and I wondered whether you will need to adjust the figures or whether you think the figures are robust enough to cope with that. Thank you so in the medium term financial strategy we've assumed that interest rates next year are going to reach 5% and that will be the rate on which we will be borrowing at so as regards the figures we won't need to change that but obviously potentially we'll need to change this paragraph and as you say that's that rates are now changed so yeah we'll make a change to the paragraph as you say so yeah the assumption reviewed is that we will be borrowing at 5% during 2020. That's a bad name are you happy to move on? Yes that's fine. Excellent thank you very much so um colleagues when we're asking questions obviously if we wish to ask directly to Peter Maddick is absolutely fine um otherwise I will go to Councillor John Williams in the first instance who may well then as we know pass on to one of the officers so and if I can just raise on behalf of a number of councillors who just raised this um was that it was noted that a number of the tables in the report went over more than one page so therefore councillors would just like to flag the fact that it would be extremely helpful if we could directly of course be good to ensure that tables appear on single pages I think this is a reflection of our ability to read tables rather than the contents of the tables so that is said with a bit of a bit of humility on parts of councillors excellent okay next up is Councillor Cohn. Thanks very much chair um my question was um regarding the general reserve and the the funds that we've got in that I just wanted to um really ask uh Peter Maddick the detail behind how accessible those funds are and um whether we could you know lay our hands on those funds quickly or they've tied up um in assets and and so forth okay so we will go to Peter first of all councillor Williams you have not been called upon as yet thank you so um the sort of funds we have invested we have around 50 million invested at the moment and some of that is sort of two three year terms it's generally relatively short but on easy access sort of three million we've got around 15 million at the moment and we have a minimum of seven million so we would always take the view that we should have seven million readily accessible cash at any one time but we are exceeding that at the moment. Thank you very much councillor Cohn are you happy to uh happy to move on chair. Thank you very much councillor Hobro. Hello thank you chair so uh uh I have a question but but actually I I noticed a small typo and as the Douglas Adams fan I'm delighted to report just on page 42 um line A that year 2034 I think should read 2023 um so sorry but so on to my question the um so this this really relates to councillor Bradham's question about interest rates so so we heard today that interest rates are increasing by another half percent to three and a half percent um inflation has been going up of course and it's um predicted to peak soon but there are large uncertainties in the the sort of the curve that we're expecting inflation and consequently interest rates to follow over the coming year or two and then the corresponding uncertainties in the um the sort of GDP trajectory so um I mean these issues are all referred to so I found them in paragraph 12 on page 14 and again in paragraph 16 on page 15 and paragraph 51 on page 22 so it seems to me that these uncertainties are captured by the alternative scenarios presented in paragraphs 55 and 56 on pages 22 and 20 to 24 where there are three pessimistic scenarios and one optimistic scenario that that are given and please forgive me if if I've not understood that correctly because this is the first one of these reports that I've read but um so the scenarios that are explored involve um anything between two and a half and 10 increase or decrease in various elements of yield or demand in the figures so so this brings me onto the question it's not really clear to me how these yield and demand figures relate to the uncertainty in the economic outlook um for the things like inflation interest rates and GDP and so so my question really is um how have those uncertainties been mapped to the four scenarios if that's what has been done and how confident can we be that these four scenarios capture the range of likely economic outcomes well enough that we're adequately anticipating the economic uncertainties of the next year or two thank you so Liam's I don't know if you want to answer in the first instance or pass over to Peter again um I'm happy to pass over to Peter to explain how we how we arrived at those scenarios but I have to say that um you know our experience in the past has been that um we have been very good at forecasting um and indeed um the outcomes have always been better than the worst case scenarios and and certainly I consider the worst case scenario as being an outliner and that the baseline um has in general normally been the outcome that we have achieved so but but I'll leave it to Peter to explain in detail how we come about these uh these scenarios thank you cancer John Williams Peter Maddox so thank you yeah so um scenarios that we've modelled are the ones we believe like are the ones that um we should use because we um did actually look at some scenarios so for example with business rates we did look at a 20% reduction um and obviously that is quite a big variance we did actually then come from conclusion that actually is pretty unlikely that we would see a 20% reduction so we moved those down to two and a half five and ten percent and I guess the difficulty with any of this scenario modelling is that there's um quite a range of possible scenarios you could put in so what we've tried to do as best we can is pick the ones that we think are the most likely variances rather than some real outliers which uh which we have looked at in the past um of course um there's been so much uncertainty as you as you rightly point out particularly over the last three to four months and it has been quite uh a lot of work a lot of revisiting over that time to come up not only with the actual figures we're presenting in the table but also within in the scenarios and I think it's probably fair to say I've not seen as much volatility and uncertainty in all my years in local governance um and I can confidently say that the figures I present here by the time we get to next week we've changed yet again um so you know the scenarios that we've modelled are the ones we believe are most likely um but even then um it's based on a lot of assumption um and you know with all the volatility that we've had it's quite difficult to pin down you know which scenarios we should run with and which ones we shouldn't so um so that's the one that's the ones we've run with um we've tended to use those scenarios over the last two to three years and generally as Councillor Williams said earlier we've not seen anything that's quite matched the worst case scenarios so I'm as confident as I can be that the worst case scenarios that we're modelling here won't come to fruition but I'd probably you know if you'd have asked me six or seven months ago where interest rates were going to the rates they are I wouldn't have modd said that so you know um I'm as confident as I can be that the scenarios that we've modded are the ones we should stick with. Councillor Hobro do you have a further question or are you happy for us to move on? No I don't I'm very happy to move on thank you thank you very much for the answer. Thank you Councillor Stobart. Thank you chair so um it's a comment and a question so it's strongly related to what Councillor Hobro has raised but just by way of I suppose clarification for me the notion of risk assessment is kind of woven through the report and I noticed paragraph 34 you talk about modelling using a very reliable source of data you underline the uncertainty in the current circumstances and then the table which we're just talking about in paragraph 55 page 22 um so I did have a question about scenarios which I'll come onto in a moment but just proceeding to paragraph 70 there's a discussion of the risks there's a savings risk and economic conditions risk and the climate change risk so um I was intrigued as to how all this was woven together so uh just to come back to the scenarios point how are the scenarios triggered how do you um observe the data uh when does that happen and how does it happen and then when thinking about the risks how sense of the scenarios related to the risks so um uh if we said you know we've run out of the capacity at South Hampshire to make savings how could that be related to one of the scenarios that's proposed in the table for example so it's about the mechanics you know how when a risk appears does it switch a scenario in and out and then how are the actions taken and do those risks um for example appear in the risk register with a you know red amber green light that would trigger a review um at a high level so I hope that's clear but probe me still further yeah it's not thank you Councillor John Williams anything to add initially uh thank you chair I think I think it's fair to say that um this is kept under constant review although it says in paragraph 70 that that the council uh that that we expect the head of finance to present a report twice a year um that this is constantly being watched and so all those various factors are under constant review and clearly should there be a um an indication that something um would is not um that the risk on a particular item has changed and that will be brought to my attention by the head of finance and clearly action will be taken um to notify cabinet and to seek a a change in our um you know in in our working but um for the purpose of this paper clearly this looks forward for the next this is the position as of now for the next six months and as Peter um Maddick has said you know given that we don't know yet what the local government financial settlement is going to be that's that will be announced on December the 21st that um this is most likely to change anyway within the next few weeks so the report that will come to council in February uh will not be this report so I think what I'm trying to say is that everything is fluid particularly in the current financial circumstances but it's under constant review and therefore action can be taken at any time um we just we we don't wait for this report to come out or we don't review things every six months they are under constant review great thank you very much uh Peter Maddick's yeah so um we have on our risk register for example the strategic register we have a risk around economic pressures obviously that has a bit of every six months so we're doing that on a regular basis um I think the biggest risk probably facing us as a council is this the fair funding review that's potentially coming in 25 26 um so um we the fair funding review has been spoken about um over the last few years and there's potential for funding to switch away from district councils two counties and particularly funds of social care so that's certainly the biggest risk that we face and I think it's becoming more and more apparent that that's 20 25 26 so um and in order to meet that challenge clearly the uh from the council's point the best way to meet that challenge is to make savings or increase income so I think in Paragraph 69a we talk about savings um so there obviously is a risk that at some stage we'll make savings and at some point we won't be able to go any further with that but um we're certainly confident over the next couple of years with the transformation program we've gotten trained in the moment that we'll be able to deliver significant savings over that period um I mean automation and um each service review is sort of driving force behind that um but I think it is always a risk that you know you can cut things so far you know you can you know get efficiencies particularly with technology but you can at some point you know it will become increasingly difficult um and I certainly think something we need to to look at over the next few years potentially is um income generation being in I can't say innovative around uh income generation um because clearly if we can increase our income that's much less less painful than coupling services so I think whilst looking at savings for efficiencies it's clearly the way to to go I think we also need to compete in generation so I think that there is a real risk uh at some point that we will get to stage where we can't cut things any further um we mentioned the economic landscape I mean there's been so much uncertainty uh and you know 12 months ago I don't think any of us would have predicted where we are now um so there's clearly a risk that things will potentially get worse most of that most of the commentators I've been reading and talking to are sort of suggesting that things are going to improve um probably at some stage next year or towards the end of next financial year so I think we're expecting to see a interest rates peak next year to around the sort of 5% mark before then dropping back so we have a we have a sort of a risk around interest rates that potentially is a shorter term risk than perhaps some of the other risks um as regards um climate change then you know again we need to develop um it's more sophisticated modelling I think around the impacts of climate change clearly there's um things within our business plan to to do what we can to mitigate against climate change we do review as as councillor William said we've reviewed the medium term financial uh strategy formally twice a year but we do look at the figures on a regular basis I think it's probably fair to say over the last one months I've revisited the figures at least five or six times um so you know and again um the risks are changing over time and there's clearly a lot more risk uh and a lot more volatility in the figures now than at this time last year simply because of the situation we find ourselves in I think it's probably the most difficult time to to assess where our income and expenditure is going and I'm prepared to accept that um figures presented to you this evening you know are against a backdrop of a significantly more risk than in the past and consequently you know there's likely to be some significant change to those figures um we've got the settlement we think coming on the 21st of uh December um indications are that it's probably going to be slightly better than I've assumed in the medium term financial strategy so some of the pessimistic scenarios um around the settlement do look as if they might be you know it's not going to be as bad as perhaps we thought um but I don't want to say too much until that until that comes out but the real problem is we'll be in 25 minutes so that's when that's when we think things probably are going to hit councils particularly industry councils and we need to prepare ourselves for that hence the savings and things that we're doing at the moment to try and get us in the best position for now um I'm not sure I can add too much um yeah I mean we monitor the risks on the regular basis and and I will be revisiting this next week um and probably again in January and then in February we will have um a version of the medium term financial strategy when our 2324 budget is set and by the end of January we'll have a pretty clear idea of our business racing configures for next year as well um so it's quite near to the budget setting process when we actually have the certainty on our value for next year um which always makes forward planning quite difficult. Thank you chair just a brief follow-up question thank you very much that's helpful picture um sometimes things come in twos you know the lightning strikes twice I wonder about the value of not anticipating because by the very nature these things can't be anticipated or legislated but you know if if there were to be as there have been you know economic shocks at the time of for example a some kind of significant series of climate events you know that then we have these two factors in play and I wonder if as part of the scenario setting process a few of those might be considered um by because you know their their impact will be quite novel um so it's it's just a suggestion I mean South Cambridge District Council not a big multinational firm and so the nature of risk is is different but nevertheless the the environment is particularly complicated and tracking multiple things which might happen at the same time um might be challenging so um it's really a comment but that's a suggestion that we might consider multiple things um you know for for making certain types of of climbing development. Be happy for just to be a comment not for a piece to respond to. Excellent okay so happy to move on thank you okay next up is councillor Bygod. Thank you Gem. So just looking on page 41 it looks as though there's a main issue for us to be concerned about is the retained business rates on the second line from 25 26 onwards and just sort of it's really sort of a presentation thing really just reading that table it's a read that we retain part of the rates and then the government takes the rest if we look at page 20 paragraphs 42 and 43 it talks about the proposed increase in the local business rate share to 75 percent from 50 percent um but looking at the way the numbers go that seems as though the government's taking 75 rather than 50 and I just wonder if there's a a sort of a a way of presenting that that doesn't I mean obviously it's such a big number uh that people are probably not going to get confused which way around it is I just wonder if we could present that slightly better and also um just if you could give us a little bit more of your thoughts just a bit more of a description about how that process works and what the sort of likely possible other outcomes might be. Would you like me to take us straight to Peter for that rather than going to councillor Mylion? Oh I'd speak whichever. I'd go to councillor Mylion for the first instance doesn't matter if there's anything you want to add before we go to Peter. No no not really except that obviously every year we face this but as Peter Maddox has said I think that given the crisis in in in the care crisis the upper tier councils are at some point going to receive more funding and that will be at the expense of district councils so you know I I agree with Peter Maddox that you know this is going to happen at some point fortunately it's been put back every year but I think we're into into a situation now where I think it's pretty certain that there will be a fundamental shake-up in local government finance so I think it's right that we should um you know prepare for this and have that in our in our strategy. Great thank you very much councillor Mylion Peter Maddox thank you so um the fair funding review was first moved to to come in from 2021-22 so you can see how long it's been, how many times it's been delayed and as part of that review central government were proposing that with business rates it was going to be reformed instead of 50 local 50 central government it will then go to 75 local 25 central government as you mentioned earlier um but it's pretty clear that um as part of that process all of the additional 25 percent will end up going to counties for social care plus some of the existing 50 percent that we get hence you though when I say local it basically staying within the local government sector rather than um or local government and um fire sector um rather than um you know just districts or just counties so I think we will see the reduction um overall in our income but also in moving to 75 percent all of that additional additionality we're expecting to go to county to help with um with social care funding and certainly at the outset when this was first announced that was one of the clear intentions of the fair funding review to to re-evaluate the business rate system in particularly because I think um when when local business rates came in back in 2012 even at the time I thought I thought it's share that the district's got was probably slightly disproportionate to what the county's got and you know more than 10 years later we're we're looking at um we're addressing that um so I think it's difficult to I mean maybe a bit more explanation around how that's actually working might be helpful because I take your point it seems slightly perverse that we're saying there's more than 75 percent now instead of 50 percent coming to to the local government yet our figures are going down but actually it's the fact that the counties are going to get all of the additional 25 percent and we're also going to lose some of the existing to the county as well so I can probably make that a bit clearer as to what's actually happening there just just so the members are aware of what what the intention actually is. Okay thank you. Councillor Byger, so you consider the answer or is there anything else you want to ask? Great thank you very much really appreciate that um that additional bit of um detail um I think yeah if you could just put a few words in document I think that would actually explain it really well thank you. Thank you very much uh next up is oh sorry before we move on to next one if I can just note that councillor Senator Hans Raj has joined the meeting and just ask if you could introduce yourself. Hi I'm Senator from Houston in Bington and Orchard Park. Thank you very much councillor Hans Raj and our next question is from councillor Heather Williams. I'm going to judge that. If they do decide what is the appropriate length of time to wait isn't it? So what I'm going to do is we show obviously councillor Heather Williams if you can hear us and are unable to contribute we will come back to you in a moment. Is there anyone else who wish to ask a question in relation to this item? Councillor Fane. Thank you chair. I wonder if we could turn to um paragraph 15 on page 15 as just been explained by Mr Maddock. The problem really arises as things stand in 2025-26 that show that appendix B referred to there. When the for the reasons that have just been explained there's a sudden fall-off likely to be a sudden fall-off in the retained business rates combined as it happens with the effective ending of the new homes bonus. Now my worry is that as we've just been hearing there is continuing uncertainty even within one government and we're always expecting further statements which will radically alter this. But if we get to a situation in 2025-26 I'm looking out page 17, bottom of page 17, top of page 18 and you'll see the reduction in the retained business rates referred to there, the ending of the new homes bonus and other factors. So suddenly we go from a relatively healthy position to a net resource deficit of 3.26 million. Well if we're very dependent on political uncertainty there is a certain event likely to happen in 2024 which might add to rather than reduce business uncertainty and I'm wondering at what point but since we clearly can't anticipate the outcome of such political changes at what point we have to make radical changes even in the field of face of uncertainty to prepare ourselves for that likely eventuality. I don't know whether my question is clear. I will go to Councillor John Williams in the first instance. Yeah, thank you Chair. You're absolutely right, Councillor Ffain, that we need to be prepared for that and that's what we are currently doing and in fact we've been preparing for that as Peter Maddox explained, you know every year for the past four years we have been expecting this fair funding review to happen within two or three years of setting the MTFS and we have been making preparations not just in regard to transforming the council's services and productivity and therefore savings but also in diversifying our investment income so that we're not solely reliant on Ermond Street and investing in financial institutions such as banks but we have sought to broaden our commercial investments to bring in additional income. Now we've had some issues recently with that because the government has been trying to prevent us from doing that through changes to the public works loan board regulations. They believe good reason because certain councils have taken on board very risky commercial ventures and as a result there have been some councils that have faced layman's terms bankruptcy as a result so the government has been very nervous about local government investment however the changes that they have made has stymied councils like South Cams that have been taken a very reasonable approach to commercial investments and has been quite successful in delivering commercial investments while keeping the risk of those investments low and as a result over the last two or three years we have actually received some three or four million pounds in income from commercial investments that weren't there before the change of administration in 2018 so we have been preparing for this eventuality and we'll continue to do so and we are continuing to look at the transformation programme we're continuing to look at further investments which we can undertake within the new criteria of the public works loan board and also we're looking for investing in financial institutions that give us a better rate of term particularly now we are seeing interest rates increase because there is the other side of the coin to this while our borrowing costs increase increasing interest rates also mean we get more income from our investments in banks and other financial institutions so we are constantly looking at that to endeavour to make up that difference that we predict will happen when the fair funding review comes in and we lose that income from retained business rates. Thank you councillor William for a comprehensive answer. Peter, might you have anything to add in relation to that or is that a little point? I think that's covered most of it, I mean I think figures do look quite stark particularly going from 24, 25, 25, 26. One thing we haven't included in the MTFS is that when there's a change like this there tends to be a sort of couple of years of what we call damping so you get some additional grants to soften the blow. Now the last time we had any significant review like this and it was quite a long time ago now I do remember there were two years where your funding assessment was put down to a lower level but you got only lost a third of it followed by two-thirds and then you settled on the new assessment so I am expecting something similar to happen in reality though we've not factored this in here just in case it doesn't happen but yeah as councillor William said you know we're doing everything we can to prepare for 25, 26 when we expect to see the reduction and actually you know the council are in a reasonably strong position compared to a number of other councils to meet the challenge but I don't think you know we don't want to underestimate the challenge that does lie ahead and I'm you know I think we all know this will happen the last few couple of years and what the economic climate looks like and what inflation looks like and I think we're pretty saying this this finally will happen in 25, 26. Make sure we're ready to meet that challenge. Okay thank you very much. I'm like councillor Fane and if any further points on that we're happy to move on. Well just a brief comment I know it's unfortunate that the specific period of uncertainty comes immediately after a likely political change in 24 but I welcome the work that the lead councillor and the Peter Matthews team are doing particularly with the investment strategy to make us less dependent on these sort of political uncertainties than many other councils are likely to be by then. Okay thank you very much. Okay so we'll go back to councillor Heather Williams who I'm informed is available now. Hi hoping my internet is working now can you hear me okay? We can definitely hear you councillor Heather Williams. Okay I hope you'll excuse I won't dare to put my camera on just in case. So it's very interesting to listen to everyone's comments my question is more of a practical one about the recommendation and we did raise this on a paper before about obviously this is a cabinet report that we've got in front of us about having a sort of a covering note for scrutiny as to what the recommendation what are being asked to do. I assume as cabinet has already recommended it to full council that scrutiny is just commenting and noting but just for sort of transparency reasons and for committee members I think it'd be really helpful to know what the actual request is of committee today and have that documented so it's a real practical question or comment from myself. Thank you chair. Thank you councillor Heather Williams. Councilor John Williams. Thank you chair well this as councillor Williams has said this this has actually gone to cabinet and cabinet have agreed to recommend it to full council and as we've said in a way this is this is a draft because it will change as a result of the settlement that will be announced on the 21st of December so what will actually go to full council in February may well not be this report that you have before you so I can only say that you know you know in those circumstances I believe that you can only you can only note it rather than do anything else because it certainly will not be the report that will go to full council in February. Thank you councillor Heather Williams. Thank you chair I think that was some of my point but it was the question I was asking us around transparency and requirements of committee so can we have an agreement for a cover note if it is a report that we're looking at for other committees and then everybody knows and public knows what we're actually being asked to do as a scrutiny body because if I was looking at those the agenda today I would not know what it was that was being asked of us. I completely agree with councillor John Williams and those in the chamber will know that's quite a rare thing that this committee can only note this this is a document that only cabinet can put to full council so it's knowing where the where the route and the process is just want to make sure for the members of the public and others that keep a very close eye obviously on what we're doing quite rightly that we are clear so my request was not what we should we do it's very clear we have to note it but can we please have that documented and making it clear the recommendations to this committee when we have agenda items on this and anything else where we're just noting a report from another committee. Thank you chair. Okay I was going to at that point just say is there anything anybody else wish to say before I kind of almost move forward on councillor Heather Williams point cancer back in your hand was up at that point so we'll have a little discussion in relation to the point cancer Heather Williams has made. Thank you chair. I simply wanted to observe that in our general terms of reference our purpose as a scrutiny and overview committee is to observe and make any suggestions for amendments that we think might improve the paper before it goes to its next step whatever that is and I think I can understand councillor Heather Williams maybe in this particular case and maybe others wanting that to be clarified because of the way the recommendation is worded on page 13 but I think we have made some suggestions to this paper to improve quite simply some of the formatting and we've asked questions of it and we've had some clarifications and Peter Madduck has accepted that there is some there's one element where an extra bit of text might be helpful so I think we've done a job here haven't we we've suggested some amendments which might be helpful as it goes to its next step. So my suggestion then would be that when we it just almost adds a sort of just an extra question perhaps for myself and councillor Cohn to ask when Ian senior is the officer supporting the committee puts forward the agenda and the papers on behalf of the cabinet or others for the committee that perhaps councillor Cohn and I just make sure that we are absolutely clear about exactly what the committee is doing if it is necessary for that but as you say councillor Madduck it may be the case that it isn't necessary but I think councillor Heather Williams is that fair interpretation of what you're suggesting that councillor Cohn and I take that as an action going forward working with Ian senior if it is necessary just for it to be more clear perhaps than there's been up to now. Yes thank you chair and I don't think it just a cover note for when it's scrutiny with cabinet papers behind would be sufficient just to make it really clear thank you very much chair. Thank you very much councillor Heather Williams I now have councillor Leaming. Thank you chair um I was considering our role as overview and scrutiny in terms of risk management and our overview function and hearing the comments repeatedly from in various forms about unprecedented volatility and risk that we're facing for reasons that are outside our control. I would like to ask that an option remains open for subsequent financial papers or iterations could return to overview and scrutiny um potentially on a more time timely basis um if material changes or risks materialise um reflecting on the situation that we're in now. Councillor John Williams in the first instance. Thank you chair yeah I don't see any um any reason not to do that but bear any mind though that um we have to programme the officers workload um and an awful lot of effort and time is spent on preparing reports for for your committees as well as other committees so I wouldn't want them to be constantly having to come to this committee with an updated report um for every time there is a change in the um circumstances but I think there is a point that um should something happen between now and the next review um that um that should be brought to to to your attention um but well that's something that I think Mr Maddock and I will have to discuss to see and indeed with yourself to see how meaningful that that could be. Okay Councillor Lin. Thank you chair and I completely take the point that small changes or any changes would it would be completely inappropriate but I think perhaps I'm just reflecting on the level of risk that is around it at the moment and I'm speaking about material changes significant things that may may benefit from future scrutiny. Thank you Councillor Limie. Next question is from Councillor Lovelock. Thank you chair in fact I've been reading more carefully and I think I've answered my own question from the text and the document and there's a point of information I'd like to take that out of the meeting. Very much. Are there any other questions from any other councillors? Councillor Stavart. It was a comment relating to Councillor Leeming's point which I think is very well made but in the subsequent discussion perhaps this could be addressed to Councillor John Williams and Peter Is there a trigger condition that we could agree whereby a report is revised or some section is revised and presented to the committee? Hard to identify what the trigger conditions might be but perhaps if the committee could agree those triggers then it's all kind of regularised and we are in the business I think of trying to manage officers workload at the moment so it could be made in a sense more predictable that might be a good thing. Yes I mean it strikes me that there are there are always kind of two sides to this in terms of there are things that you can set us with each trigger for which are very very clear but I would I would always kind of think that we would operate on the whole principle of transparency and openness and welcoming scrutinisation of our work whether it be public scrutinisation of our work with councillors or whether it be the work of councillors on their committees and scrutinising the work of cabinet and officers generally so that therefore in the same way as that Councillor John Williams just said that you know yes it would definitely be a a sensible theme for it to come back whenever it was appropriate to do so there is an element by which we we look to cabinet members and officers to be able to recognise the value of the work of whichever committee it is, whether it be a review audit or whatever and to seek to bring that back for input whenever that is necessary to do so that is difficult to judge as an absolutely specific thing isn't it because that can't really have a trigger of figures that will like to some extent on councillor John Williams and Peter Madig making the judgement that's the case. I sense from my discussion this evening that councillors are pleased to receive the report and there's lots of interesting things that have come up and that hopefully it will come up again to be discussed okay is there anything anybody else wish to add? Councillor Bradman. Thank you chair I was going to confirm my understanding is the same as yours and that is that the very nature of unpredictability is that it's unpredictable and therefore it would be hard to judge a time when something should come back. I appreciate what Councillor Stobart is suggesting is a numerical trigger but that would maybe also be hard to predict and so I think we leave it in the hands of the lead member for finance and our lead finance officer to determine if they think a change is sufficiently great but it needs to come before us again and the only other thing I would suggest is that given that the and this may be too soon of course but given that the Greater Cambridge local plan we've been told that's been moved to the February meeting I wondered whether there is any room to have a planned return to this committee anyway you know because things will have changed in between times sometime before the budget is finalised so sometime in January or February I don't know if that might be helpful. I think actually why I don't know that the Greater Cambridge local plan meetings have to be moved from the 10th to the 12th of January so it does remain in January it's not actually moved into February but there are other meeting slots that we can definitely hear. Yes so we could maybe bring it back in January or February if it was felt to be yes were important. Excellent great thank you very much. Since if I'm asking just one more time Peter is there anything you want to add sorry Peter I think you can see on the corner why I'm there. No that's fine in the January meeting we'll be bringing some budget papers to to this committee and we can give an update. That's the 19th of January sorry 19th of January so as part of that report we can give an update not only where the figures have changed particularly as we will know the setting we will know the provision of setting at the least by that stage. Thank you. Cancer Stover the final comment there that cancer sorry cancer that Peter Mads has made that it will come back on the 19th some extent is that suitable at this point. Yeah okay great thank you very much um I don't see anyone else excellent okay so bear with me because now I will ask my question as every in my head there are many many questions but I'd like to point out that once again I'm always pleased to find that my colleagues ask so many of the thoughts that are in my head and always make me feel I might be on the right track with these things. If I could just reference please probably to Councillor Johnny's in the first instance on point 27 of Appendix A I think which is about growth prospects. It talks about obviously the council managing to work in response to lots of growth activities that are going on and I'm just interested to know um the extent to which you feel that these growth activities that the council can engage in have the potential to close some of the funding gaps that I referred to in the medium term financial plan or whether or not you think that actually this is unlikely to be able to solve significant parts of the shortfall that we face. Councillor John Williams in the first instance okay thank thank you chair um quite a difficult question to answer at this point in time but all I can say is that we are always looking for uh not just savings but looking for um income and that includes um investment income as well as um looking at borrowing you know looking at loan loans to other um organisations. I think at this moment in time there it is clear looking at the Greater Cambridge area um we are certainly probably the growth area for the UK at the moment so the potential there is the potential there over the coming you know five years to see economic growth in the Greater Cambridge area delivering for us additional income uh from as I say investments or or other other sources so I think this I'm quite optimistic that we are very fortunate in South Cambridgeshire um in in where you know in the fact that we are in an area which is considered to um be uh will continue to have economic growth regardless really of the the um condition of the rest of the country in in a strange sort of way so we are in a very privileged position and therefore I think we can feel that there will be opportunities in future whether or not those will deliver the sort of um returns that will enable us to offset the deficit that's another you know I can't predict that um but we will make a we will do everything we can to make sure that we can we can do that. Very much and just to follow up on that it's just at the bottom of point 28 on the investment opportunities where it says investment opportunity solely for yield i.e acquisition and commercial assets is not part of the council's capital strategy um would I be correct Councillor John manian and understanding that that is maybe a part of the answer you gave earlier about how the council has engaged in a more responsible and managed strategy which is perhaps not the one that we expect to be influenced by changes of government policy where they have sought to control more risky activities by councils is that is that perhaps in line with that it well that that's in line with the changes to the public works loan board rules which which it doesn't the government hasn't prevented us from borrowing money elsewhere for um ventures that are purely for gain however if we do that it says that we won't then be able to borrow from the public works loan board so um technically it hasn't stopped us from doing that but actually reality it has because we need to borrow from the public works loan board in most circumstances because the interest rate from the government is much better than we would get elsewhere so we would be foolish to um to throw that opportunity away um therefore we have to keep within the rules of the public works loan board and those rules say that we should not borrow for purely for commercial gain or purely for you know for yield so unfortunately as a result of that that means that we can't go and buy a commercial property purely for its income um we but that doesn't mean to say that we can't go and um develop or go as we've done with 270 Cambridge Science Park where we've taken over a property and converted it uh to make it more suitable for what startups and and the biotech industry in Cambridge wants so we've converted it from a single unit to five separate units and as a result of that you know we can say that we are spending that money for economic regeneration not purely for commercial gain. Thank you very much that's great Councillor Bateman for last point on this. Thank you chair what Councillor John Williams has just said has triggered a thought in my mind on a slightly different track if you will um help me on this it just occurs to me it do you see any change in um potential for us to um use more of our income from our rented properties to build more social housing at all and you know this it has become extremely difficult to do that in recent years because of the way we are entitled to use any uh income from that and I just wondered if you saw any prospect of that changing at all well that's one of the reasons why we in previous administration borrowed um 205 million so that we could keep our council house rents to use them to um to to to enable us to um build more council housing um before before we did that the the government was taking something like 12 and a half million pounds off of us uh from our council rents uh and being able to keep that has meant that we've been able to develop the um house building program for for um for for social housing um but it's very complicated we have to and and building our own housing means that um we have to have a separate housing revenue account and capital account so it's not straightforward um but that is what we do at the moment we use council house rents we use rents from our social social housing to fund new council housing that's basically how we raise the money to do that uh which is why it's very important that um when we look at council house rents um we we consider the impact of raising those rents on the housing program because if those rents aren't raised then we we basically don't have the money to continue with our house building program so you know unlike um um in in a private market where you can go off and borrow money um we we have to use our house council house rents to underwrite and indeed write to buy um income as well use that to to build more council houses but nevertheless i mean we have embarked on a very ambitious council house building program and i'm really proud of what we've done so far in the last four years in greatly increasing the number of council houses that are built in this district okay thank you thank you okay thank you very much everyone um we can bring that item to an end now thank you very much which is we know was the sort of main body of our meeting just needed a couple of items to go so item seven is where we are looking at future work program and you can see that's page 43 of the plan brings us to where we are on the future work program and obviously at the moment we are on our 15th of December meeting for our medium to financial strategy and as we've discussed the 10th of January meeting has now been moved from the 12th of January meeting sorry to the 12th January which is then focused on the greater Cambridge local plan with the papers obviously report being issued then on the 5th of January so we're right at the start of the new year and then we have the 19th of January meeting which as Peter just referred to is for budget reports investment strategy so both of those quite significant meetings with very important items on them um we did look at the possibility of combining them into one meeting um but it is likely that we will need at least a couple of hours on both of those items separately so therefore we're going to have two separate meetings on that um as you can see then we have meetings running through February March April May and at the moment from the work program that we have we obviously have the annual equality scheme there on the 20th of February and we are going to receive the update report that we have requested on the 11th of May 2023 regarding the future user south camps hall so that'll be a positive six months from the point at which we had the previous item now what we also have is the task and finish group work that we are engaged in another meeting has been held recently so finally report recommendations from the young people task and finish groups coming due Councillor Stobart I wonder whether you want to just give us a brief update of where the task and finish group for young people is at this point thank you chair yes i'll give a brief summary so we've um we've had our third meeting and this one was particularly significant because we were chair beginning to shape the the program so from some initial thoughts of where even defining the age range of course where we would like to focus our attention we've had some very helpful input from officers and a chance to discuss where priorities lie and what we're going to do and the net result is we now have a clear picture of where we're going to talk to young people um and something of the strategy as well we'll might say more tactics that we're going to make that it kind of initial probe with a number of groups see the kind of results that we're getting and we will continue that until we settle on what we feel is is a kind of a consensus viewpoint so um that's a good place to be because I think I just had this feeling that we were going to pile up a whole series of tasks that would be difficult to do in the time that we got available and just to reiterate the point I think we made last time is that we're going to aim to complete that program of interviews and discussions between January and March and of course at this stage we can't predict at the end of March we will be finished um but um yeah we'll come back and report on that but that is our aim and that would leave us then enough time for officers to complete the report and for us to present the report to the full council in July that is our goal but we can't legislate for everything and there are risks um completion of the program is dependent upon the availability of the opportunities to speak um so we're aiming for that that gives you an idea of the plan uh and we will of course update you at future committee meetings. Thank you very much Councillor Stavart. I'm standing over the committee wanting to ask Councillor Stavart in his role as chair of the task and finish group any questions at this point All right Councillor Fane. Thank you chair um Councillor Stavart I've just said that um you will have a clear idea of where and I think that means when you're going to engage with young people I'm just wondering whether this is the chicken and egg question whether it has been possible to engage with young people in deciding how and when to engage with them and if so which young people and where you find them. You ask a very good question um and so far I can't say you know that we've got a group of young people together to ask how we should properly engage with them but um that is about the first thing that we're going to do so I think yeah getting a kind of um agreement with those who would you know be in a supervisory role a teaching role and so on in relation to the groups of young people you want to interact with so I think we're going about it that way as opposed to say we'll get a group together and ask but I think the first thing we'll do once we meet a group it would certainly be my intention would be you know to discuss about the mode of interaction you know how we best best get the results so we've got a little more thinking to do about that um but you pose a good question which is really that um the young people set the agenda uh as to how those interactions take place and I've noted that thank you very much thanks for playing happy to move on get some models and pretty much I don't see any other plans or waves or offline or anything else so that one and you also see in the middle column regarding the stuff that we have done in terms of putting items on an agenda that we have to be scheduled or is the stakeholder engagement item and that one remains to be scheduled that is the one that we haven't made a huge amount of progress on at the moment um we have the community facilities at North Sto but as we can see not before October 23 so our calendar doesn't quite go up to that and on the other item that we put on our own work programme the planning engagement with Town and Parish councils um I met with Heather Jones from the planning service today and discussed the group that we would go down that regard and to come up with a committee that we were making contact with Town and Parish councils at the start of January and we'll be contacting all the councils across the whole of the south camp district and we will be asking them for their engagement regarding this this particular bit of work which is what their feelings are what their views are what their perception is of their engagement with the planning service and we will then either engage directly with them if that is necessary or the idea is to have one of our meetings in the, let me scroll back up on my screen because I've lost a thing, so we'll obviously have our opportunity for February or March or April that we would use one of our meetings as an opportunity for that representatives of Parish councils and Town councils to come into the chamber with us and that we then engage in our review of their engagement with the planning service during one of our scrutiny meetings at that point but obviously that is in a few months away and we will then engage with them either within that meeting or we'll be able to engage in them outside and I will inform Members more when we get to January of exactly what progress we make on that. Councillor Baggan. Chair, thank you. All that sounds great. The only thing is that on this it's slightly ambiguous it's not clear if you're planning to engage with them about something or it's engagement with them about planning and so I would just suggest we add the word planning service engagement or something like that because it's not clear if you're planning to engage in them about talking about landscape or water resources or something it's just to make that word unclear. Yes because even though obviously that being in planning as a capital electorate is the start of the bullet of the needs so that's absolutely fine I'm sure Ian will update that one so yes so we will come back to that regard so it may well be that I was saying to Councillor Cone earlier it may well be for instance that for one parish counciller then his ward may not be able to attend the meeting that we have but then Councillor Cone in his role will then perhaps have that discussion and conversation with them so we would use members of the committee as well as inviting them to come to a meeting which would tie in with the discussion that we've had and I think Councillor Lovell have raised in that the pre-meeting that we had regarding making sure that we were also thinking about what we've talked about in terms of engaging with service providers and such like outside of the council so therefore it also moves us forward on that moment as well. Is there any questions anyone wish to ask regarding the work programme and the calendar that we have? Okay so which brings us to do you note the date of the next meeting and the date of our next meeting as we have discussed is actually now the Thursday the 12th of January which will be specifically focused on the Greater Cambridge Local Plan and we don't have any need for the exclusion of press or public, we don't have any items in that regard and as I always do at this point I will turn to Ian and I will ask Ian if there is anything that we have not covered that we should have covered or anything that you need to tell us or say nothing more exit. As I've said to members before I do is have this fear that I close the meeting and Ian waves at me vigorously and tells me I've missed out the most important thing we have to do. So thank you very much everyone thank you for your attendance we have managed to finish ahead of seven o'clock this evening which obviously is a good thing but I feel we have still spent a robust and significant amount of time in relation to the full Government plan but I thank Councillor John Williams as Cabinet Member present for all of his answers and work as well as our officers and as we come to the end of 2022 we look forward to a enjoyable holiday season and moving into more scrutiny work in 2023.