 As we gather together as a group of graduate students in public interest technology and related studies to really talk about our work and what has led us here. And so we have fellow panelists here and I just have so much honor to be with them with the work that they do and to learn and hear from them about their own journeys into this field as we get ready to get started at this point. And I think that we're each going to take the opportunity to share a little bit about our own journeys. We'll take turns in that and then we will be moving into a conversation with questions and answers and so we certainly welcome your questions in the Q&A. We welcome your feedback in the chat and we look forward to really having a wonderful, robust discussion with you all about what these paths and journeys can look like as we share a bit of our own experience and really learn from each other as well. Perhaps we could just take the opportunity for each of us to say hi. So my name is Toby Shullruff and I am in the Public Interest Technology Program, a brand new at Arizona State University in the School for the Future of Innovation and Society. Salah, would you like to say hello? Hi everyone, my name is Salah. I am a second year PhD student in the Innovation and Global Development Program in the School for the Future of Innovation at Arizona State University. And yeah, my focus is really on the technology in the financial sector and I'll tell a little bit more about that as we go along. I'll just pass the mic now to Martin. Thank you. I'm Martin Perez Comiso. I'm a Chilean PhD student in Arizona State too. I'm in the program that's called Human and Social Dimensions of Science and Technology. My main research is about how we understand and how we think about technological systems, in particular in the relationship with development and international ways to understand technological problems. Elma? Hi, my name is Elma Heyerig. I'm in the same program as Martin in the Human and Social Dimensions of Science and Technology at ASU. I'm interested in data governance, especially data rights regarding surveillance, ownership and privacy. And I'll pass it off to Farah. Hello, everybody. My name is Farah and I am a Mexican doctoral student. I am in the same program as Salah Innovation and Global Development. It's the same school as everybody's school for the Future of Innovation in Society. And I am interested in studying, especially smart city technologies from a feminist intersectional feminist approach and thinking how this technology could hinder or help in challenges that global cities have. Wonderful. I see that our moderator has joined us. Thank you, Toby. I hear that everybody's introducing themselves. Have everybody gone through and at least given a quick intro? Great, great. Apologies for the technical difficulties on my end, but I do have a fan above my head. So I want to welcome everybody who is here. This is the best practices in PIT programs. And I am Jamie Watmore. I'm the Associate Director for Academic Programs at the School for the Future of Innovation and Society at ASU. And I'm here to admit that if you actually want to learn about PIT programs, the last person you should talk to is an administrator, which is why we have five students we have pulled together who I think represent five different sort of PIT-aligned graduate degree programs. I think what you will learn is that if you come to ASU as a graduate student, you want to get a second graduate degree because I think we have at least three of you, I think, are involved in that. So I'm excited to hear a little bit mainly about the journeys that you all are going, you're all in the midst of that you are doing. We as educators are trying to help you make the difference in the world that you want to make. So I'm excited to hear about what those differences are and how you're going to do it. And maybe give us a critique of things we need to fix in our graduate programs along the way. I think we have it set up five to six minutes for each of you. When we hit five minutes, I will give you all the warning sign. Maybe I'll raise a hand or something like that to let you know you need to wind down. But other than that, I'm going to be quiet and let all of you talk. So we're going to go in Toby Schor. You are first on my list. So the floor is yours. Wonderful. Thank you so much. And thank you to New America and to everyone who organized this event for welcoming me into this space. I am joining you all from the traditional and unceded land of the Kalapuya, Kalits, and Atfalati nations outside of Portland, Oregon. For 20 years, I have been working at the intersection of technology and gender-based violence. So in my work, I see every day the risks and the harms of technology, how location tracking, the Internet of Things, big data, and online spaces can quickly turn into tools of harassment and stalking. It's clear to me that tech is not neutral. It should be no surprise that the technologies of our time, rooted as they are in a history of command and control, should be misused to control a partner or their children, or that business models predicated on persuasion should so easily slip into coercion. It's foundational. It's not surprising. But I do also see that technology is used to increase safety and privacy in spite of it all. Driven by the creativity and the resilience of survivors of violence and those in every community who are supporting them, I've seen those creative uses work to the benefit. I've also seen eager, well-intentioned tech developers define problems and design solutions that don't really help or even worse sometimes cause more harm. Please hear me say this. We do not need another panic button. Really. I'll talk about that a little bit more at the ISDAS conference tomorrow morning. But I think you've joined because you want to know why we all joined the Public Interest Technology Program or PIT aligned programs. I joined because I crave a community exploring the imperative that technology should serve society and the planet. To serve society, technology in its design and development needs to be rooted in the needs and priorities of all communities. But technology like the future is not evenly distributed. Thank you, William Gibson. The pandemic has starkly revealed if there was any doubt. So what's the alternative? It's the meaningful involvement of people who are disproportionately impacted by the unintended consequences of technology. It's victims of violence, people with disabilities, women in trans folks, black, brown and indigenous communities in the US and globally. Not coincidentally, these are the same communities who are kept at the margins of power in society. This isn't simply about the digital divide and increasing access so people can be equal consumers of technology. It's about shifting who does technology and how we think about technology. To me, that goes beyond a narrow Western frame. When we look at the roots and the applications of technology and public interest technology, so much of the literature situates the roots in of responsible innovation, of technology and for the public good in the European enlightenment. And we have this narrow definition of who does tech in Silicon Valley and other hubs of innovation today. But at Arizona State University here at the school for the future of innovation in society, we say that the future is for everyone. So the question isn't about some token view of how tech can look more diverse, but how can tech development be shifted all the way from its foundations to the outcomes that we see? So what can we learn from the intentions and applications of technology in the flourishing of Islamic science in China and India, innovators of so many technologies that we take for granted globally today? And in the long traditions and vibrant current living indigenous cultures and how they develop and use technology. These aren't just dusty historical inquiries, but they lead to a more robust conversation about how technology is designed and deployed in the public interest globally today. And really, who owns the future? So what's next for me? I want to collaborate in shaping this field of public interest technology. I think we should build out a toolbox for students, for practitioners, for technologists, with practices like co design, meaningful community participation. How do we meet and work together? Skills like systems thinking and design, futuring, storytelling, iteration, strengths like curiosity, flexibility, and a maker mindset. And it's really, really important that we're in this for the long haul, but we're not just like helicoptering in with some donated good solution, but we're there for the long haul to really work with communities and more so to empower communities, right, to turn over the tools of design and development to communities themselves. So I'm so honored to be here with my fellow panelists. I can't wait to hear from them about the work that they're doing. And then just at this convening with faculty and long time heroes in the privacy and tech world. So thank you. Thank you, Toby. Next up, we have Farah Neha Arevalo, and Farah finished her masters of science in global technology and development and decided that wasn't enough. So she is now in the PhD in innovation and global development. Farah, the floor is yours. Thank you. And yeah, I think my journey in public interest technology has two moments. One is the one that James pointed out. So I am in the innovation and global development PhD as a consequence or as a sequel of having done the masters in global technology and development. And both programs are very tied to each other. And that's how some of the questions, similar questions to what Toby has mentioned have arrived to end the discussions with the people that are in this panel. But I think my journey started in my early professional career. So I have a bachelor in international affairs in Mexico, and I have worked in the tech or close to the tech industry back then, and also in a big federal or a smart city project in my city. So I think my undergrad studies plus these the experience, the work experience led me to pursue something. And if I could share the story. So I work in an NGO that fosters the development of the local tech industry, but also collaborates with international IT and technology companies like Intel, IBM. And when I was there, that's where I learned about the concept of smart cities. It was in a presentation from Cisco, and it sounded very appealing and very interesting to me. And, and I didn't consider the questions and the concerns most people share now. But then I in 2015, I attended a side event put up by Microsoft and in New York, and it was a side event of the adoption of the United Nations Sustainable Sustainable Development Goals. And they were speaking about how technology can support the UN Sustainable Development Goals, and they created like this narrative around technology for development. And I felt like that's kind of the space that I needed to be. Like it was it really appealed to me. And that's how I felt I could bridge my undergrad studies with my work experience. So I actually I started searching for programs that bridge technology studies, but also development studies. And to anybody who haven't not heard before about what development studies is. It's a program, graduate program that it's mostly found at Western universities in the U.S., in Northern Europe, in Australia. There are very few programs in Latin America that looks at how we think of nations being developed, not developed, what turns makes sense, the third versus first world notions, should we call them emerging economies. So that's kind of the programs outside as you wear. But I wanted to do something that related that to technology and the role of technologies, but also those who make technologies and how they make. So I started like an internet search of programs. I search technology studies, development studies, and I found like two programs, one in DC. It was a development studies master's with a concentration in technology and development. And I found the SFIS School for the Future of Innovation in Society website. I emailed Mary Jane, the chair of the program. I told her like we exchanged some emails and I applied and that's how I'm here. And however, in my time working in Mexico, both in this tech NGO and then later in the smart city project, I felt like I was having this very technodeterministic conceptions on development, which were challenged in the GTD, Global Technology Development Program. I think another element that added to my journey was spending time with the human and social dimensions of technology. PhD students like Martin, who is here. Elma came later. So I just met. But it was, I think my work experience plus my undergrad studies and my inquiry to study development and the community around our school, the idea sharing. I think that's how, what has led to my journey. Right now, I am studying smart cities from a feminist intersectional perspective, like making question how the technologies in smart cities serve. Who is a user in the smart city? Is there a normative user who is left out? So I'll leave more of that later after the next round of questions. Thanks, Farah. Next up, we have Salah Hamdoon, who is in our PhD in innovation and global development at ASU. Hey, everyone. Yeah, so I guess my journey begun in the Netherlands. I was born and raised there. I studied business there. Although after high school, I started, I actually wanted to become a software engineer. So I studied software. And I really made, and I really realized at a certain moment that I wanted to know more. I wanted to know more about the, what goes beyond just the software design, the applications. So I decided to study business like anyone else would. So I did that. I finished my business, my international business degree in the Netherlands, and I moved to London. And then I started working for a bank. And I moved to the Middle East. And so during my time there, when I worked for financial markets, I looked at things like, as liability management, affixed dealing, and investment programs. But what really made me realize, and what really made me realize that I wanted to know more was I saw how the banking world operated from the inside, how technology became more and more important, especially during the financial crisis, how markets started to become attractive. Markets that banks were not interested in before started to become really attractive because of the technology that now allows people to bank through their phones and basically do, basically have access to a lot of the banking products. Now my interest in how banks functions within those societies was also driven by the fact that I myself came, born in the Netherlands, my parents came from Morocco. So I always knew about the idea and how certain institutions participate in the development of communities. I moved from the Middle East in 2015 to DC. And that's where I really started to, my network, started to engage with people who were dealing with policy and who were dealing with questions surrounding development and the technology that aids them. And that's where I decided to go back to school after a couple of years of working, I decided to go back to school and start my PhD, really focusing on my main, so the main question that I'm focusing on is, so how does, how do programs like financial inclusion or financial technology really contribute to the social inclusion or human development as it's known by a lot of people? And that's basically where I started my journey at Arizona State University. The reason why I was so attracted to the program at Arizona State University was, as you, that's why I also mentioned the international journey that I took, it feels as if everyone understands what it is to operate on a global scale on a global level. When I speak about Morocco, I can find people in there in the program that actually went to Morocco, did projects in there, no Morocco better than I do, whether I talk about the Netherlands. So it is, those are very easy conversations to have. And with the interest that I have, then it is just, the discussions are richer in a sense, right? So when I thought, when I talk about some sort of communities and how technology applies, there's always someone who is able to be able to have that discussion with me. So as I said, I'm really interested in developing or participating in the thinking of developing alternative solutions, things that technology can provide and still be mentioned, it doesn't need a good or bad. It is really what we make of it. And that design for people with people, through people, it is so essential for us to create that future that we all want. I see specific challenges in the area of financial technology. There are stakeholders that are now involved that were not there five or 10 years ago. And we have to understand what their philosophy is. We have to engage them in those stories. 10 years ago, we were not talking about Google entering the payment system, but now we do. And we have to understand what is their philosophy? How do they want to, how do they see communities? What can their technology contribute? And really just being part of the discussion is going to be very essential. And I think the added value that I bring in this program is understanding organizations from the inside and not fearing these organizations. I have been inside the bank. I have dealt with central banks. And it is really, and that is the one thing that I can tell you is that whatever experience you have, take it with you. Bring it with you. You can use it. Whatever you have done is going to be extremely useful. So take that knowledge with you. And yeah, it's going to come into a very rich discussion. Thank you so much, Sara. Next up, we have Elma Herrick. And she also is a double dipping, starting with the Masters in Science and Technology Policy. And now on to the PhD in Human and Social Dimensions of Science and Technology. Elma, the floor is yours. Thanks, Jamie. As mentioned, I am part of the HSD program at ASU. I'm a first year PhD student. And I did, in fact, do the Master of Science and Technology Policy. My area of focus is in data governance, especially privacy ownership and surveillance. And I'm also part of the NSF-NRT grant for citizen-centered smart cities and smart living. That really puts an emphasis on creating people-centric smart cities with emerging technology becoming more ubiquitous and more intrusive. And data really running the foundation for all of these new technologies that are coming out. It's imperative that we also maintain some kind of semblance of human rights in digital spaces. And that's really what I'm focused on. How do we extend digital rights through data rights as a human right? And these are big questions that I'm grappling with. But how I got here is my background. I'm a refugee. I came to the United States as a refugee from Bosnia. I was first a refugee in Germany, and then we came here. And during my undergrad, I grew up in Arizona for the most part. And during my undergrad, I studied international affairs in German. I also worked as a tech support assistant and was able to find a role in bridging the communication between technicians and the students that we were supporting. And that was completely irrelevant to my studies. But there was a running theme throughout my life also with loving technology and kind of being pretty intuitive with technology. But after I graduated, I found it really difficult to find a job and to navigate the industry space. As a first generation college student and as a refugee, I didn't have those networks required. And I figured out throughout the years that I needed to go back and get a master's degree. But between my master's degree and graduating, I worked in corporate in an administrative role where I continued to apply these tech support skills to my coworkers and really understood the business needs for productivity and efficiency and helping our team meet those goals. But it wasn't suitable for me completely. I needed more challenging ways to think. And I wanted to go back to my roots with human rights and international affairs and continue that line of work somehow. And policy was a good bridge to that. To keep relevant to those issues, I also volunteered with our local chapter of Amnesty International and continued this flow of human rights centered approaches. And that also brought up some alarms about surveillance technologies and the disproportionate implications of these surveillance technologies as Toby mentioned in her introduction. And that led me to studying data and surveillance during my master's science technology policy. But these questions just created more questions rather than answers. And I also found myself with my intersectional experience and kind of both at the industry level and personal levels, I found myself in a good spot to be able to reflect on these questions and offer a different perspective to the normal perspectives that are usually brought in academic spaces. And I think this is kind of what we need more of in industry and in academia. We need to break these power asymmetries and we need to find ways to incorporate people who are disproportionately affected by these technologies to have them reflect on what it is that we actually need and how to create better futures for everybody. And that's really where I found myself. Also, I really loved the environment that ASU had to offer. I, for the first time, found myself in spaces that actually challenged me and that actually offered opportunities and respected my skill sets where, you know, there are so many people who are like me in humanities who can understand this technology but just don't have this pathway to actually show their talents and actually have some kind of input into these spaces. And we really need to create more bridges in order to create technology that is of public interest. Yeah, so these are big questions that we're grappling with together and I look forward to talking more about it. Thanks, Ella. And next up is Martin Perez-Comiso. And Martin is working on his PhD in Human and Social Dementions. Thank you, Jamie. And thanks to New America and NISTAS for the opportunity to talk and share my experience. Before, like, public interest only appears like a network or a collectivity. I'm joined the Human and Social Dementions of Science and Technology program in ASU because I have a strong interest in a discipline or field as college, Science and Technology Studies. One of my main questions is like, how do we do a better world with technology? And that, I think, has a lot of relationship with, like, unparallelism with what public interest technology entails. Technologies are produced and used by humans and not digital or physical, infrastructure community is purely isolated. In that way, I'm interested in how humans become part of a geotechnical system. This is this network of intertwined things and people that people take different roles as inventors, maintainers, designers, regulators, users and hackers. And I'm trying to study and understand, like, the networks of that. But in particular, I think that, like, we tend to observe these situations as, like, fixed for specific roles. We tend to, like, have narratives about, like, successful inventors or, like, how users are pervasive, like, designers are pervasive or how users are neglected. But I think, like, we move through all these roles over days with different technologies, but we have struggles to think about them because we don't have, like, the tools and, like, the strategies to democratize this kind of, like, deep reflection about our technology or world. I think this is, in part, because we share hegemonic images about technology, like robots or computers or vehicles or smart cities, among others, that, like, often are, like, reproducing the media or we are, like, talking about, like, emerging things. But we tend to neglect how all the things work as data centers and, like, cords, connecting things and electricity and, like, a lot of work in different places in the world is interconnected. And I think, in a world that, like, the interdependences are more clear. I'm really interested to research and connect and synthesize ideas for many larger audiences able to engage with this kind of thinking, that is fundamental, I think, to understand the world we have created and the crisis we have produced after, like, the industrial revolution. For that way, I'm interested in, in particular, in my PhD to experience technological development, technological appropriation and, more recently, images of futures and images of technology. I'm really committed with the role of education and I want to become an educator after my program. I have the privilege to, to elect, to lecture in Chile for several years before I arrived here. And the PhD for me is a time to, like, connect and, like, synergize all these ideas. And I think the program in ASU and the School of Future Innovation Society is one of the best places in the world to do it. It's the largest college in the world for this area with more than, like, 50 faculties and, like, now two other schools in sustainability and complex systems to improve the ways of thinking needed to understand the complexities of technologies. Among different things that I have been involved, I'm interested to collaborate with communities of educators around the world. During this pandemic, in particular, with some friends and colleagues, we did a collaboration with the state official NGO in Chile to support teachers of technology in Chile. There is, like, a course that, like, is in, from the primary to the high school that is mandatory and, like, the teachers have, like, very little training or tools. And in particular, when this pandemic and all this, like, digital teaching, they was, like, really struggling with that. And I used my networks and strategies and learnings that I have got in ASU to put together at 18 weeks, weaving our series with guests from all around the world for them. Most of them, most of the talk was in Spanish because that, like, the language that we speak, but also to, like, bring all these different ideas and strategies that I have been learning here on how, like, we can empower these teachers. I hope to share some other things in the conversation. Thank you. Thank you, Martín. We are open for questions. So if you have questions, you can put them into the Q&A or the chat, I believe. In the meantime, I have a quick question for all of you. Martín, you started hinting at it. I think you may have already started to answer this, but I'm going to ask it of everybody. So it's very clear, all of you see wrongs in the world that you would like to see righted. And it's very clear that you would like to be part of that process of righting those wrongs. So why go to school? What is the motivation to go and get a graduate degree? Why not just jump into the field, get your hands dirty, and start trying to make the change? So not to critique grad school, I'm just curious. What is the motivation that is bringing you back to school? I'm the one that actually went back to school after a few years. I think for me, it was really understand the alternative approach to do deeper research, to find some of the knowledge that I was not thinking about. So basically, the question was, the question was not so much, oh, I'll have to go to grad school then just to get a degree. It was more, what do I not know? And how then am I able to participate in the discussion? So it was, for me, it was more, how can I bring that richer discussion? How can we come to a richer discussion about something that I knew was wrong, and I knew I wanted to fix. But then you need all the, you come with a bag of knowledge and methods and how to approach a certain problem. I think that for me was the added value. For me, I have over 20 years in my field working on the issues that I care about. But there's a couple pieces there. One is that so much of our work within NGO space is like the grateful recipients of donations of technology, or in my specific work, helping people to navigate harms that they're experiencing without really having the power to change the systems that are causing the harms. We're aware of those systems. But that's really why I came to this program was that I wanted the time, because in NGO work and probably in most paid jobs, but in my work, it's like one thing and another thing and another thing. And I have to have enough expertise in location technology and IoT and big data to be able to answer these questions that make a difference to a person's actual safety and their life. And so I wanted to be able to step back and take a higher level view and a deeper view to weave together a lot of what I had seen through my work with theory. I knew a lot of clever people were thinking clever things about this. So I wanted to connect to all of them and to be in a community. And even just my first months in this program have shown that as I'm just inspired and lifted up and amazed by the work that I hear in my fellow students and my faculty and the experts who have been brought in to talk to our programs and that connecting to through this convening. So for me, it's community and that ability to affect on a more deep level the wrongs that I'm seeing. I have an answer that like is related to like what degree will enable to you. And for me, there is like four big things. The first is like tools that I haven't had the opportunity to develop and there's like methodologies there, but also there is like theoretical tools or strategies. The second, there is like the degree. It's also some way of recognition and there is like a social validation in particular for me that I'm interested to work in academia. Like you require a PhD degree to do a career in that. The tier is like the contacts and networking. Like the school that you engage and the USA to go like will enable to have access to specific experts and people and that makes me decide for ASU for the large amount of people that is like moving around here that is impressive. And the last one I think is the opportunities because I think grad school is an a space that like you can fund ideas that like in the real world have like less probabilities to succeed in the way that like you can like experimentate with more freedom and like engage with more an exploratory pathway that helps you to grow not just as a scholar or a professional but also as a person and engage with those opportunities is something that like like a regular job like often don't allow it. Sure. Okay. I think well and those who have worked in NGOs industry, Matt, could you agree on this? When you are working day by day and you do like annual planning, quarter planning, you're consumed by operations, daily operation, solving problems. Oh, there's this issue and you have to like there's like a fire you have to like put water quickly. And I was privileging the space where I work. I work with very, very small and multivariate people who pushed me to think more. But still we were consumed by event planning and projects and like submitting reports. And I feel that the school what the school provides that all the space is done is just time to be critical or to think so you are encouraged like that's what you do. You study something, you criticize and you have to propose an explanation. So for me, I think the wise clue answer is because it's a space you're encouraged to think and come up with your own theories and explanations. I think also it provides a structure of thinking and problem solving, which you can also get that structure of problem solving and elsewhere, right? But it's a framework of how to approach phenomena. I think the system thinking part came from me precisely in my masters and also I agree with this being said before. It's like a network of thinking people and I don't want to say outside there's not thinking people, but everybody is grappling with these questions like Elma shared, like the questions that Toby everybody shared. So it's a constant like ping pong of questions and somebody makes you think of another. So this space to be critical and think is fostered by other thinkers like you who are in the same path and are not consumed by office work or project management work. And my answer to that, I was actually hesitant to go back to school. After my master's degree, I had intended to go find a job in industry or somewhere else. During my master's degree, I actually had the opportunity to work at GAO, the government accountability office with their new science and technology assessment and analytics team. And I really cherish this opportunity and experience. And I would have loved to continue working there if they had opportunities coming right up. But, you know, these opportunities take time to develop. And with my passion for data rights, I really wanted to continue creating meaningful conversations in this space that I didn't find available anywhere else. And I also feel like this is a wicked problem, right? Like there's just so much to it. And I needed to learn more about the socio-technical approaches to understanding this problem at a deeper level. But I also feel like academia, it's an unknown space for me, right? I didn't grow up with academia being a career path. I didn't know it was a career path until I was doing my master's degree. But even then I was really hesitant, you know, to jump into and dedicate my life to a PhD. But I feel like I thrive in this environment. And I feel like I belong in this environment. I think within HSD in particular, all of my inquiries are being pushed and challenged. And, you know, there's so much opportunity for collaboration and from learning from people, professors who have great expertise in our thought leaders and their areas and spaces. So I think it's a unique opportunity and like looking at it. I don't know why I wouldn't go to academia, I guess. So I like everybody. Great answers. Great answers. I like this, you know, when you're caught up in the middle of a day to day job, you just don't have that time to sit back and think big picture. It seems like that's a big motivation for a lot of you. So there is an old saying that those who can do and those who can't teach. So many of the instructors, not all, many of the instructors that you all have in these programs have spent most of their lives in academia talking about making change, but maybe not actually making too much change out there in the real world, except for students. When everybody asks what impact do I hope to have, I always say, I'm hoping my students actually do something with the time we've had together. But I'm curious for all of you, it's clear that you all believe it's really important to step back and think big picture and reflect on theory. At the same time, I can tell you all still want to get out there and get your hands dirty and be on the front lines of change. So as a student, how do you balance that? Especially since traditionally academia doesn't reward people who leave the ivory towers. You're rewarded for interacting with others within academia. So Toby, you look like you're chomping at the bit. I am chomping at the bit. And like to respectfully disagree. And part of the reason that I chose ASU and the School for the Future of Innovation and Society is because it is applicable. And my professors do work in the real world. Elma mentioned working at GAO on their technology analysis team. And so two of my professors worked for the Office of Technology Assessment in DC before coming to academia. And another professor developed a tool to be actually used and applied. And what I hear consistently at SFIS and also just the broader College of Global Futures is it doesn't matter if we can't actually make a difference in the world. And I think it would be, I would still go to grad school even if it was just the theory because I also have my full-time day job at the same time. So I am still making a difference to answer more directly your question. But it has surprised and delighted me how much the school is grounded in this having to mean something and be applicable and not just be words on a page or words in a video conference. I want to agree with Toby in these two. I think the work that like not just SFIS, I will like there is like a specific examples that SFIS has are very clear like Lorraine Keeler working in the Tempe Action Climate Change Plan or Marta Berbers with Minority Communities Futures, Fajim with who's saying with refugees and the Afterlife or like Laura Hosman. I worked with her in the last two years with Solar Spell helping to access education in the wrong place in the world. And all of those projects and all the projects most faculties have in the school are projects really applicable direct communities and stakeholders. But also, and this is something that I think the peat community have the opportunity to engage a lot more, is like the field of like to me, motivation to make my PhD in HSD is science and early studies. And if there is an increasingly space for applied practices and engaging with communities, it is evaluated scholarly too. There is not just go and present papers and essays, it's go and present your projects and your classes and your policy projects and your engagements and your movies and your documentals and things that like make impact to others. I think that is fundamental to to think that I think peat that in some form it came from this tradition of technology and society that's had like more than 100 years of like theoretical history and practical history can also have considerations about like how we make change in the world with the new ideas that we produce. Yeah, I would like to second that I absolutely agree. I mean, one of the reasons that I connected one of the many I connected with my with my professor, Tina Michael. So much is because of her because of her experience in the field and she is an example of how, yes, you can thrive in the in the for profit or in the nonprofit and still be an excellent professor in academia. It is and I and there's one thing that I that I've noticed it is just, you know, the love for your work and as long as as long as you can keep doing it and express that people will recognize that and and follow your lead. So it's it's it's different every it's different but it's every person has a different experience but I absolutely agree with what Toby already mentioned and Martin is that the knowledge from the field but also the knowledge getting knowledge from the field but also making sure that the make sure that the knowledge that you produce reaches the different parts of society in different ways and and therefore we cannot be stuck in the ivory tower. It is definitely finding ways to share share your knowledge and engage knowledge. Yeah I think the SFIS culture is really focused on incorporating practices like citizen participation and outreach and you know actually applying the things that we learn through initiatives and incentives like knowledge mobilization projects and you know these degrees like my master's degree is really focused on public service and it's focused on how do you communicate with the public and how do you you know create technologies and scientific tools that is of interest in the public and and actually make an impact but also this HSD program as theoretical as it is there are also elements that make it applicable and continue to challenge and force us to apply these projects to the public. Also being part of the NSFNRT grant on citizen-centered smart cities and smart living it's citizen-centered and the entire program is cultivated around how do we actually engage with the public and how do we create meaningful impact that is applied beyond the things that we're learning. I want to add one more thing I agree with that I want to add one more thing is that when you look at the innovation and global development program we do not have the luxury of just talking to each other. The world moves on very very quickly and we need to understand what is on the ground that is one of our incentives to really look at how are people interacting with institutions how what is the effect of COVID right now what is the effect of poverty in one place and not the other place how do you how do states function and for that you really need to be on the ground there is no the luxury of just staying and just talking to each other is it's just not applicable in my program. I'll add some something very quick because because this is a question I have struggled myself in the pandemic because I have I have encountered that question for me since we I have been on Zoom since March like everybody but but to to what my peers have said like we have also the type of faculty who do activism through their academic and research work uh so so we have the model like the future is for everyone and um and the IGD program Netra Chetriar program chair he always says like how do you elevate those that are systematically marginalized so we are pushed with this question but I have also seen how a different uh faculties in our school do this activism through their publication through their work um so I think that's one another way to to maybe they do leave occasionally sometimes they don't but even if they don't leave they're running there and they're pushing uh challenging those systems of power so yeah well thank you everybody that was great and thank you to New America and to the IEEE for giving us this format to do this and I wish you all the best of luck and I look forward to uh yeah well I look forward to watching you walk across those stages so that we can hand you those degrees but more importantly I look forward to seeing you all in class because that's where I learn the most so thanks for a great session and enjoy the rest of the conference thank you all thank you everybody thank you New America thank you everyone thank you