 Good afternoon and welcome back to the program Touchline. It's the show this particular afternoon, Maxwell Oseke is my name of course Ken Andrew, the guest co-host. Still here with us joining us is Ngarwa Kamuya, not an unfamiliar face to this particular blood from a man who has many hearts indeed. Nowadays he is the host of three quotas podiko asti. Oh actually he has been the main host since I think a few years down the line and he is also passionate about sports business, he is a lawyer by profession and now venturing into sports consultants. How is it catching up man? Thank you very much first for soles of pleasure to Greece, Touchline. It's going well, still very hard to convince the local investor to invest in local sports but what gives me hope is the amount of attention we are getting from foreigners, people who are in jurisdictions who have seen sports actually thrive as a business and that gives me hope and that's why I continue doing it. The Kenyan will catch up at some point but it's very good to see what people outside Kenya are seeing of the Kenyan sports in-sync or people outside Africa are seeing of the African sports in-sync. I don't even want to say Africa because North Africa has already privatized sports and commercialized sports. Angola that's happened, Tanzania we are seeing it in Zimbabwe. South Africa are years ahead of everyone else so it's a Kenyan thing. We just don't have investors just don't see it but look they'll see it one day, one day they'll see it. I think we have time back on the same platform in this particular show we were talking about Patik Motsepede Taikun from South Africa now I was a confederation of African football as the president and you know how he has manuvered his way into sports business having acquired his wealth through business, through giving, it's overwhelming passion and even his club itself during participation in the cup champions league they take choppers and like what we see in East Africa. Patik Motsepede actually made his money from gold because gold is a big thing in South Africa. That's how he made his money but he's invested in sports because he owns a Mamelodi sandals and he owns 37% of the blue boots, the team, the rugby team, the place in Pretoria. So now that takes you to the next level. Yes you can be a billionaire by South African standards because of gold but maintaining a professional sports organization is ridiculous amounts of money. You have to have a bottomless pit in terms of cash. So that now takes you to the next level even in terms of billionaires clubs. That now takes you to the next level. I mean it's not every, there are very many billionaires but it's not all billionaires who own sporting organizations. There are very few. Why? Because it's expensive. It's expensive to run a sporting organization profession. Ken I think what we're speaking is related to what happened last weekend on Sunday. We saw the protests, anti-glazers protests that led to postponement of man united against Liverpool. The glazers family have been purely because of business returns in terms of finances but you know funds won't out come. They won't out come from the pitch and from them who've been taking a lot of money from Man United. I think taking money to finance the loan they took from the club. That angered the funds but aside from the glazers when you look at it from here it's a huge club like Gore. I think Ambrose Racheer when can he say okay I'm going to make this team the 50 plus one thing when can he say that is it possible at the moment or still very far off? It's possible. First of all just to take you back to the Man United case. The problem is first glazers have been united since 2004. So they've been successful even with glazers on board. The issue came in I think the Orazico Super League. Yes the Super League was a big issue for the funds. But you know also not to get complex but when glazers took over United they did something called a leveraged buyout. So basically they used United assets to borrow money to buy United. I like that. Yes so United have been running in debt all those years despite them being generating some ridiculous revenues over the few years. But anyway back to your question in terms of gormaya. It's possible. Maybe three weeks ago there's a piece in the nation called Kogalo corner. Yes. And somebody had floated a question about isn't it time for us to privatize? Because even the sabs you know clubs in Kenya are basically member clubs. So even the sabs that subscriptions is supposed to be paying 1200 how many of the gore funds can afford it. So you have a very big club and actually the argument was even this community clubs that we keep saying community clubs community clubs community clubs. We need to privatize. If gormaya today got ten billion shares to privatize I can guarantee you give it five years they'll be competing against the top boys in kafchamslead. Because you need money to run a sporting organization. You can never run away from that fact. You can never run away from that fact. And I don't know I guess if I'm saying go you kill the culture or the culture. Manunited have been in existence for a hundred years. In fact I keep on saying the three clubs to me that have heavy culture in England is united as Northern Liverpool. And it's no mistake that there are three clubs that have won most primarily times. Yes too. And the culture still runs deep. The money just comes to me in the operation. The culture is always there. When you have guys like Sir Bobby Charlton see it's still on the board. When you have at Anfield we have a restaurant called the Legends restaurant. And what Liverpool do every day there's a Liverpool legend. The likes of Kenny Dalglish. Kenny Dalglish. And what was Ian Rush. Yes. Michael Lowen. Steven Gerard. All those guys every day they make sure there's a legend who will come and sit down with them. Do you think that can be incorporated local as well? It can. It can it's very simple. I'm just telling you once the first dice rolls in terms of private investment. Kenny is a copycat economy. Sure. So once the first dice rolls in terms of privatization we are going to go that way. Because we are being blessed behind. And funny thing is so none of the transactions I'm working on. We were having a conversation with some guys who are based in South Africa. And he was telling me that your country is known for so many good things. It's known for tech. Being a pioneer technology in Africa. It's known for the people. It's known for the world-class safaris. I can't wait for the time that it's going to be known for the sporting potential that it has. Look at it. Let's look at it like a manufacturing industry. Let's look at it like that. The raw material is already there in terms of the athletes. Kenny is a very athletic. And that raw athleticism. All you just need is a technical harness in the technical side of them. And in multiple spots in football and rugby and athletics. So we've been poor at the execution. Yes. But to harness the technical side, you need money. People can't... Coaches can't be doing this as a side hustle. It has to be their main job. It has to be their main job to harness this talent. And that requires money. We've spoken over time how the government role is to put in place a conducive environment. An enabling environment for sporting activities to thrive in the country. But what we've witnessed locally is most federations cry foul. Sort of being beggars to the government whenever they get stranded. I don't know. Are we reversing the roles? If I was... Today, let's say, for example, the president would say it's not good to be the CSO of sports. You know me, the first thing I do is burn funding federations. Because that is what creates the laziness amongst the leaders. And I think, can you agree with that? That's what creates the laziness amongst the leaders in the federations. And that's what makes it very political. Because you know, okay, fine. Ministerial sports is going to give me 500 million shillings in a year. So it is out of a stepping stone for someone to make wealth. Exactly. Burn funding federations and tell the federations themselves and the delegates. Kazini, it's your work now to choose leaders who are going to bring in money to your sport. My friend, let me tell you, you will see the change. And you just limit it to now maybe Olympics. Komono, maybe make it for the World Cup or Cup or something like that. But year on year, burn funding federations. When Malkia strikers maybe four years ago, they had been invited for a grand prix in Brazil. And they were unable to go because first they owned... They called the volleyball the global body. FIAFB. Yes, FIAFB. Yes, they owed those guys money, I think about 8 million shillings because these guys had come to bail them out a couple of times. Then I see guys on Twitter, oh, Mohamed, now the CSO sports. How can the government let... In my mind, I'm like, why not taking the officials to task? Yes, they should be accountable. They should be accountable, some money has come through them. I've told you just now, Malkia, how I was being told when prior to in the first reach of the Mola days and one Mola days, the maximum amount Kenyara union ever got from the government was 5 million shillings. I remember at some point even the president himself attended the game. It was Kenya against England? No, Kenya was playing England in the semifinals of the 2013 World Cup. Sevens World Cup. He had just been elected. So he went to Mola and he found guys and he went to Mola to watch... The big screens. Yes. But that's my point is, it's just the management of sport in this country. We had, in the last session I had Ken talking about the stadia. We're talking about stadia country-wide. And the question I ask again is, in England, where have you ever had the government of England on stadia? It's the reversal of roles in Kenya. Government, so should there be a need for a policy being, some level playing policy being put in place. And who is responsible to do that? You see, policy is driven by the ministries. The government. Yes, yes. Policy legislation is driven by the ministry. So, if again, I have given that job, first thing I say is that, I give tax rebates to private investors. If you buy a sporting club, if you buy a sporting organisation, I'll give you some tax rebates of some form. Either I minimize the corporate tax or I tell you you're going to be exempted from dividend. No, something just to spur you to get into that. Some exemptions, right? And then you also spur them to construct stadia. And especially the corporates. You know, Masiri, Zbenda, Reina, Atlanta, Zriwot, Toyota, stadia, I mean Houston. You know, private companies at the heart. I know it's a naming rights deal. But for Etihad to bring in that money, just to manage the Etihad stadia. You remember some time back, Safarikom, the leading mobile service provider had to pull out of sponsorship of Kenyan football. Because they partnered with the football Kenya Federation. Back then someone was in charge is Saminyamuaya. And there is allegation that, you know, those people in charge of federation it shards kitu kidogo in return. And then Safarikom said, come on man. We want to invest in Kenyan football. Why? Yet you guys are seeking something in return. Ya, so there has been this lack of corporate confidence in investing in Kenyan sporting activities. But the other day I saw Paza Dayamina, Mohamed C.S. Sports during the partnership. Kenyan commercial bank signed with WRC where Josh Oigara was present, the C.U.K.C. be pumping a lot of resources towards ensuring that it is a success. Minister said that, you know, they will put in place a conducive environment to attract corporates to invest in sports. The policy is already there. Now I'll put on my other heart. One zed of the income tax act is very clear. Any person who uses their money to sponsor sports, that's an allowable deduction. That is a law that was brought in five years ago in 2016. So from that point, the policy is already set. But you see, let me tell you what the problem is in Kenyan. Most of these sporting organizations do not have the money to meet their operating costs. And I'll give a very weird analogy. It's like this thing we have of sponsors. You know, this is getting married men sponsoring young women. And that's why I'm calling it sponsorship. A sponsor just meets your budget. That's the role of a sponsor? That's the role of a sponsor. Even they just meet your budget. How much is your budget? 200 million shins. That's what they give you. A commercial partner, and even in real life a partner, let's say you're married to somebody, you don't meet your budget, you're growing with this person. So you're going to grow together. You're going to invest in this person because you're going somewhere, right? That is the difference. When you have your own money, when you have your money to meet your day-to-day operations, now I come and tell you okay, fine, I think we can partner. You're not paying me as a sponsor, you're paying me as a commercial partner. You're bringing in your money to market yourself because you know that Ngaro's sporting organization has met the operational costs. We've marketed, we've brought in people to the stadium. We are an entity in itself. Ken, it looks like Ngaro is being blatantly honest on this particular show. Calling has paid. Has paid. You know the coming of various international events here, to take place in the country. Even yesterday, the other day, two days ago, Amina Muhammad launched partnership between media and the organizers of IAAF World and the 20 Championships. Say it to happen at Kasarani. You remember a junior event of that particular version happened three years down the line when Kasarani was being filled to the rafters. Kenya Magical Open just happened the other day when international golfers were invited to take part. WRC is happening. Do you think this police is now, there is paramount need for policies to guide Kenya ahead of this event? See if we have to honest, you know what we are required to do as a sports entity. Ya, I think that will always be there. I think the biggest problem comes with the people who are supposed to really push these policies aside from government. People who are sitting at the top of, for example, FKF, the cricket. And I was talking about the cricket, there was a particular committee put in place. Ya, you see people coming and going and still the same behaviors. They don't really try even to help the other teams to push money. For example, FKF has been in charge of football for, I don't know how many years they've signed another deal. But I think whoever wins this, they'll get 5 million. Let's say God wins and they get 5 million. I think a month they run their club with something like 10, 15 million. Yes man, Ambulans Rajiru was saying that a single month like God traveling to Western to play against Kamega homeboys, they might be required to spend over 200,000 shillings per game. Yet you earning 5 million for the whole season after winning a league. Ridiculous. Ya, and they know about it and they just sit on the fence on it. But when the money is coming in, they quickly want to mix things up and get their cut and sort of do great PR by giving money. But we know what's happening behind the scenes. It's a typical Kenyan mentality, even in politics. I want to keep you down so that you look at me like a god. Because I'll be very honest, I'm somebody who has been in practice for a very long time. Somebody who's done numerous commercial transactions. I failed to understand how Ambulans Rajiru has not seen yet the need to commercialize or privatize Konmaria with the pool that he has and the investors that he can be able to get. I'm finding it very shocking that this person, there's only one thing that can come to my head. I want to make you remain poor so that you keep on looking at me like a god. So you look, WRC, the only reason why WRC came to Kenya of course is the story they give is of course topography? No, the story they give for their pulling out is lack of government investment. But I've heard that was not the real story. I'll remember it on the next time. We'll talk about it. You see now the economy that's created in Naibasha. There's a lot of buzz going there. When you talk about the Kenya open, Karen normally becomes another microeconomy just because of the Kenya open. The hotels there and all that stuff. But you just have to private investment is where it's all at. Private individuals, wealthy individuals have to put in their money first. You see if, case in point, let's say, let me use like the NFL. At inception I think people used to pay maybe $500,000 as a franchise fee or they call it franchise fee. Now to join. Now, Max, if you want to join the NFL you're forking up $700,000,000. My goodness. Just to join. I can imagine the annual fees the premium clubs pay FA. But it's because they're privately owned and the wealthy guys can meet. So even FKF, if we privatized our football clubs, our rugby clubs, can imagine, let me use the one I know, I don't like rugby and also subscription for Kenya Cup team is $7,500. She knows. And there's no prize money for Kenya Cup competition, right? What's the essence of playing then, sweating? But guys, is it passion alone? No, why am I bringing prize money if you guys haven't come out? It's money. So it's the responsibility of clubs also to... If you guys haven't commercialized your product, if you still want to run like amateur, why am I giving you prize money? Sure. Yeah, why am I giving you prize money? Why am I giving you incentive if you guys do not think outside the box? Because companies won't value for their money. It is a symbiotic relationship. Two-way traffic. I give you money, I get value in return. I get value in return. Why do you think? Until maybe five years ago, primarily used to be called the Buckley. Yes. Buckley is primarily used to be called the Buckley. Yes. Buckley is primarily used to be called the Buckley. And FA had to make the decision to stop calling it the Buckley. Because many of the sponsors are saying, hey, we are putting in just enough, as much money as much. So Buckley is monopolizing. So now they just call it the premilk. I like that. The FA premilk. But it's value for your money. Buckley is not giving it because all the Allah football that much. No. Or you think that... Now when you just call the Buckley, they are putting in money because that they love golf. It's marketing. A friend of mine was telling me the other day that these companies never get ahead of marketing themselves. They want to be in public, domainful, quite long. Like Safari, Coca-Cola, EBL, they are giant corporates. But you see, you never stop watching them on TV, giving the adverts. Hell no. I mean, marketing is everything. You pour money to convince the consumer to buy your product. So how you pour your money is on you. You want to partner with sporting organizations by all means. And even if possible, you get rid of the openings, product on market. You can buy them off. Let me tell you. In terms of this thing of sports business, no one touches the Americans. Even the English, they don't get close to what the Americans are doing. The day I knew football's impact was crazy, is the day so bad-wiser and American advertising at the FIFA World Cup in Russia. He was like, hey, these guys have checked in to the football space. But it was they realized. Remember guys, when we, as we were growing up, the beverage that was always associated with the FIFA World Cup was Coca-Cola. Now you'd be hard pressed to see Coke signs at the last World Cup in Russia. It was bad-wiser, bad-wiser, bad-wiser, bad-wiser. And I was thinking of small things. I was looking at if you look at, if you watch F1, the timer is run by Rolex, the watch brand. If you look at Premier League, the timer is run by Hublot, the watch brand. If you go to tennis, the timer is run by Tagoa, the watch brand. Where am I going with this? Can you imagine getting to a point where you've built a very good profile? I'm seeing Enkata, the local brand that's being pushed a lot, doing timing for Premier League or doing timing for Kenya Cup. But for them to put in their money also, you guys have to fix your stuff. You have to put money in the game. You have to make it attractive. Me, if I was in this federation now I would not be in government to pass those policies. Pass those policies to make it attractive for the private investors. Because even as you speak, Spots Act was passed in 2013. It was a legislation that was enacted in parliament during the 11th parliament. But up to date, it hasn't been executed fully. But Spots Act is still... It's still wrong. It addresses the issue of at least now it gives the sporting organization's powers to borrow or to own assets. Can you imagine? Even intellectual property assets practice the Spots Act. There's no club in this country that owned their own IP assets. But anyway that brought it in. So it allowed the sporting organizations to borrow but they have to get authorization from the CSO of sports. It's still a cake, if you ask me. But like I'm saying, recently I was doing, I was doing a search. There's a federation I wanted to just to get to know who's behind it. And I write a letter to the registrar of sports. This is public information. If today I want to search on a company, Max, Yes it's supposed to be in public domain. Pa pa pa. I pay my 650 pa pa get my search immediately. The hell I'm getting from that. Just to show me this these are the officials of the hell I am getting from that office. I'm like come on man. But again, let me tell you Max, let me be honest. When the money comes in, things are going to change. When private investment comes in, things because even now will go overboard in terms of drafting legislation, in terms of drafting codes, in terms of drafting constitutions for these organizations or for these federations. They'll need a bit of money to be poured in. I don't know if you're watching, is this F1 documentary drive to survive? Yes. And if you see the niti gritchis, I mean the laws, I don't know if you're not supposed to use this kind of tires. If you mimicked my production of the car last year, you need money. We need to compile such a documentary locally. How possible? Money, even not on because money. A lot of information in the archives. Look at the last dance. Yes. 20 years of footage. My goodness. Huge resources was invested in the documentation. Yes. 20 years ago, watch it to shoot. Let's shoot this thing. Then let's wait for it. In 20 years, it's going to be worth it. But then marks more importantly for me. Forget even about that last. Me, it's the team that went into producing that documentary. Yes. The brains behind of a commercial sport in basketball, the team that went into producing that documentary, the editors, the producers, the executive producers, the gafas, the director, the whole team that went into producing that documentary. You know you're talking about close to 100 guys. So 100 guys have been given employment because of that one documentary. And the reason why Jordan is famous is because it was a commercial sport. No, it was good. No doubt. But it was the business side. Nike, Nini, all those things. It's a business side. But can even locally there is a lot to be documented. We have legends whose you know content is not in public domain. 1987, all Africa games when Gore was winning the title. The likes of John Bobbio, Gola and Tigo are here to be documented. Even Dennis Oliage give it like 10 years after today the Saju not giving much needed information of him during his big stage football. I think nobody wants I have never seen a documentary a really proper one on any legend of football or whatever sport. You know you just see them when lifers has taken their toll on them. They take some bullets or do the crickets. That's when they start receiving coverage whereas when they are having their proper careers and everything the Kenyans but I can't really blame it on the Kenyan public. I really have to blame it on the people who you know the guys, the owners of the club. You know I think even if the last dance I don't think it's just someone who came from outside. Maybe it's someone from the NBA or someone from the Bulls who just pushed it. This guy can give us money in future by shooting this. Actually what they did is the current person who's the NBA commissioner. I like what you said. The current person was the NBA commissioner Adam Silver. At that time was the head of entertainment. 20 years. You see that? It's entertainment. It's an entertainment division. So he was the head of entertainment and then the Bulls owner Jerry Rainsdor and the Bulls coach Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan. So the three NBA approached the three and told them ok guys we see there's a potential here. Let's shoot this thing, we'll collect footage and we'll pack it wherever it needs to be packed. But then we'll only use it if it needs to be used and Jordan is the only person who can sign off on it. My point goes to collecting that information collecting that data, collecting that raw footage you only pay it a week. Any process. It's a journey. It's money that is required. So I think about Kikvar versus Kenya in 2003. Whenulij was scoring that crucial goal to help them qualify. The stadium whenulij scored that thunderous Yes. Who has that footage? If we don't even have TV. If we don't have TV then who has that footage? So Super Sport was contributing immensely to the growth of KPL because to be realistic if you go on the streets of Nairobi in the CBD and meet a Kenyan fan and ask them about football they would tell you of Arsenal United Champions League asking them about local top tier they are so clueless about it. At some point Nikola Smusoni former Secretary General of SECAF was complaining that Kenya Sudan is playing at Naiyan National Stadium then just a stone throw away at Nairobi West fans are you know crowded in a club catching up Arsenal against West Boom which I'll be with you. Yeah. Multi-choice that really helped this country I remember they even had a channel Super Sport 9 East it was there to show KPL games and all of a sudden ever since Super Sport left it's always been hard to watch all the league games and even now they signed a deal but it's very dodgy because I was checking out that channel it's not a sports channel there's music and things and then boom when the game is on they just show the game and then it's done it's just a dodgy deal. Do you know the reason as to why Super Sport left controversial disagreement we signed a deal that they give broadcast rights to this league because it consists of 16 teams then suddenly you are extending the league to 18 teams you know. You know the kids who manage sports in this country I even question their passion towards the sport itself but one thing is certain they don't know about the business angle or the commercial angle you don't know the importance of having a broadcast partner you don't know the importance of some of the small things that you are talking about you know that contract with Super Sport can you imagine the amount of data would have been able to collect and the amount of money would have been able to make off documentaries Yes, yes. I don't know if it's in the premier league but American sports do it like so say actually this is an NBA entertainment division or rather they all have entertainment divisions do you know they follow the team that is most likely to win or the teams that are most likely to win they follow and collect content and immediately after the finals they drop a documentary for the past for the past season making money off it those are the small things that we don't look at but hey Mark look the dice needs to be rolled the first person who is going to come into private investment in sport in Kenya is going to make a hell of money if he is a business person but he is also going to change the sport in Kenya only then can we can we fix that problem Nikola Samsonia is talking about that Kenyans would earn his playing and people at Nairobi University so their love for European football is one whoever in it surpasses their passion for Kenyan leagues which league has the most following CPL because CPL put in money to market their league so with your sports consultants as we wind up given an opportunity to partner and collaborate with local federations would you change the dwindling fortunes ya it's simple like I'm telling you it's just one thing on the local federations and local clubs it's an issue of creating the business model and making because I mean there's some money you are making clearly whether it's TK to the sponsors there's some money you are making it says to package the brand and then develop a business model that then makes it attractive for the private investor to invest for the federations is to lobby government it's for them to be lobbying government to put in policies to make it attractive for if the government can't think for themselves then it's for the federations to push government to tell them look let's put in policies that make it attractive for the investor to come but we have to you've seen in the world of rugby there deals being made with private equity firms where they're coming into buying stake to run the commercial rights we've been chatting in our rugby groups and people are like oh you sell the soul of the game in my head I'm like first what are you telling me about soul of the game if England knows the home of rugby have done it what soul do you have it boils down to that thing we should appoint our own local coach oh we should appoint our own local coach if England the home of rugby have not opposed there is another one of you know common man in football we need to have a former player to be in charge of mariniu what did you play what did mariniu play you know we are just so it's not about having played that sport before for you two guys to the managerial level you being a good player you being a good manager very different I think what are we saying we can attribute it to what is happening at the national Olympic committee of Kenya former international for Kenya 7 Amfri Kayanga is the athlete representative and he's been doing very well advocating for the welfare interest of athletes even at the international scene but if we just had someone who played that sport without having you see intellect tole's role has to have an athlete because how do you represent athletes if you've never been an athlete yourself alright so tole's role requires an athlete but if you tell me about president of nook you know I remember when campaign was happening and Paul target the main main thing on his CV is he's represented Kenya and I remember asking that that should not be his main if I were him I would be saying that discipline have acquired integrity yes I've served in the army having served in the army he's still one having been exposed out there 5 time one working with professionals now that is professionalism I'm going to bring to running nook but now guys say oh he's a homo who cares I'm being very honest if one of the greatest coaches today in the game in Jose Mordini did not play if the greatest coach to my thinking in England was not a stellar player in Alex Fadasan for United Asen Venga he was playing division 4 football and to take a whole team and beat him you know we have to we have to like I'm saying you being a good player does not mean you're going to be a good manager does not mean you're going to be a good official if that was the case Kenya to Gekuambele San you have last question for this man what gives the session because he's being 2 over sinceia I think you said registration for Kenya Capis 7500 affiliate fees for participating in the league I think that's crazy because last time he checked to join the sub county league the lowest division of football is 12000 ok football is first it's massive you have sub county leagues in rugby you only have 3 levels you have Kenya Capi, you have Nationwide and you have Championship in rugby clubs budget just to logistics is maybe 25 million but still can you imagine if you privatized even let's say just 6 the ones I see that are right of course is Queens in Bala Nondis, Muambaa, Nakuru even just 6 is privatized even your affiliate fees shoot up from 7 to 700k if those 5 pay 700k that's 3.5 million for the union in private that's just of 6 it's been a fantastic discussion we need to create this online to be talking about sports business policies, no marketing aspect it's a must the time is here and you know the funny thing is in the conversations I've been having since we started this consultancy people outside Africa have seen and people outside Kenya especially have already seen the potential there is massive potential so a discussion we will delve into comprehensively at some time let's run but of course it's been quite a fantastic discussion having Aroha Kamuna Sports Consultant just talking about the sports policies in the country and what we can do going forward to ensure that sports thrive and we still being beggars and all the times crying for just appealing to the government to come to our rescue whenever we stand it's almost an international event like it is right now ahead of the Olympics Japan of course we will continue talking about this to ensure that we educate the federations for them to know the need of making it a business model to generate revenue on their own and make the activity self-sustaining, isn't it? of course touchline is the show we still on until 3 o'clock don't go, stay tuned