 Welcome everybody back to Siegel talks here at the Martinie Siegel Theatre Center at the Graduate Center CUNY from Manhattan, New York City. My name is Frank Kenshka, I'm the director of the Siegel Center and here we are another Friday actually the 7th Friday for seven weeks we are hosting the talks with our colleagues from the global theater community workers in the theater and the performing arts. Whose work we admire we support we feel it is very important to hear from we had another week this voices from South Africa, we had Ishmael, we had Natalia Borozbit from Ukraine, we had Nizar and Fida from Palestine. Yesterday we heard from Roberta and from Dion from Brazil from Sao Paulo and and today we have guests from a country that is so significant in this world that where we all come from this is our the cradle of mankind is Africa. We really do not know enough, we should all know much more engage much more with this the country, the culture, and also the situation and understand the significance among this place also it has such a long, long tradition of performing of a storytelling of theater festivals we had already arrested from Burkina Faso and with us we had South Africa with us with Basil Jones and and and then we had for the greater market theater Ishmael who joined us and today we have two two voices from Cameroon and with us is Edouard Elvis-Bouma who's a writer playwright and also director and I meet Yolo who works in the theater as an actor also writes and creates works either so welcome both of you. So where are you at the moment. Thank you Frank. Thank you. Well me at the moment. My house. And so where are you what and what what where what where's your house and what city and what time is it. I mean, Well, my housing is in your own day. That is the capital of Cameroon and what what time is it now it is a yes it's 5pm right now, 5pm and yes and five and five minutes something like that I think yes. So we are in your own day Cameroon. Yes. Fantastic so are you in confinement are you under under you're allowed to go out on the street what are the rules in Cameroon at the moment. I'll just translate for Elvis. Elvis. And you asked me where you are for the two and then you ask if you are obliged to stay at home. Are you currently confined. Well, I'm already I'm in Cameroon I'm at home and I'm in my office it's here where I work. I'm going to write and I'm going to retire. But no, we're not confined. There was no confinement. It's green. We have more to advise the confinement. But we haven't imposed it yet. So he says that we have had that with us. Who is translating with that also as a translator of place of both of them. So thank you Heather for joining. What is he telling us. So, this is also in young day where I mean is he's at his house in his office. We write and he says that they're actually not obligated to come they're not guaranteed. It's advised but it's not mandatory. So if I understand right there's no quarantine nobody wears face mask everybody can go out. Following their own judgment. Elvis, you will be able to put them on the board. Is it that you are obligated to put them on the mask. Is it that you will be able to put them on the mask. Yes, so in the first place. So they can leave. Earlier on there were certain measures taken. Bars were closed and there were. Rules according to about transport transportation public transportation. But now they can go where they want to but they have to wear masks when they go out. So I mean all all bars are open. All stores are open markets are open. Markets are open bars stores are open. Well, I think to last week or two weeks ago. The bars were obliged to close at 6 p.m. from 6 p.m. Everything had to close like everything that was commercial. Bars stores and well and markets also. But in I think it was last week. I don't remember the exact day that there was a kind of a kind of. The kind of lift lifted some some of the of the restrictions. They said that okay now bars are allowed to open. Beyond 6 p.m. So bars are open stores are open markets are open. But as this said we are obliged to wear masks when we go out. And how are the numbers of infections and people who died? Do you is the information out? Do you know how hard Cameroon has been hit by this? Currently we we have something like 2000 and. 2300 people who were infected. And we have something like 880 dead people. Yes. And people who have been who have recovered us around 100 and. 140 I think I'm not sure. We have every day we have a daily daily report from the Ministry of Health. Of Cameroon. Yes. Those numbers seem low. So do you feel your government did the right things? Or is perhaps not enough testing out there? Will it? Will the wave arrive? Is it too early? What is your feeling? Yes. Elvis, maybe you answer. Yes, I do. Elvis. Elvis, at the end of the day, I was asked about the numbers of the number of people who were affected by COVID. And then as Hermine said, the numbers are still quite low. Before I asked if it means that the government is well reacted or if there is no testing? You really have to know who was affected. Yes. Today we are already after. We are almost 3400. We are in 1970. In fact, that's where we are. In the 105, almost 140 deaths. But I think the government at the beginning reacted quickly because two weeks after we had the first case, we closed the borders. We stopped school. So we stopped the project. I think the government reacted quickly. We had a problem with Cameroon. Maybe we translate first Heather. So you confirm the numbers that I mean was giving a couple thousand affected about 140 deceased. He said that after the first infection within two weeks, the government had closed the borders and shut down the schools. So that they responded fairly quickly. And then he was just saying about other issues. Javi, did you say about other problems? About other problems because in the first place, the majority of the cases that we had here, it was Cameroon who came back from ... And that's how there was an explosion. It went very quickly. In two months, we went from one case to almost 3000. So that's it. The government did not react well at the beginning. But then there was also a release. Just with the reopening of the areas of awareness and color. So he said that in the beginning, the first month, there was just one ... Sorry, all the cases were coming from Cameroon who were returning from Europe. So within very short time, there was an explosion from one case to about 3000. So the government responded well in the beginning. But then there was what do you call it? There was a resurgence. So how is the situation for theater artists? Vince, we all talk about theater. This is our field. That's what we work in. How is the situation for theater artists at the moment in Cameroon? Are there rehearsals? Do you collaborate online? Are theaters open? Are performances happening outside? What is the situation? I mean, do you really want to? Personally, I will answer in relation to myself. Let's say in general, like most artists in the world, we are victims of this pandemic. Because we have our projects and different activities that have been canceled. And we are kind of ... Well, the frontiers are closed. So we can go nowhere out of Cameroon. We are kind of, okay, let's wait and see. But personally, I keep doing my own thing. Like I used to say, I keep doing my own things. And I have a few projects with some friends of mine, some colleagues, some artistic projects that we are working on. Like reading online. And also kind of rehearsals. We have some rehearsals also with a few of my colleagues. So you have rehearsals together in a room or outside? Now outside, like in a theater laboratory, yes. So it's not outside, it's not in the room. There is a place, it's a professional theater laboratory where we can go and work. So we meet together and we do things together, yes. At the beginning, we were paying attention to remain, to stay like far from the other so that we can respect the social distance. But then at a moment, at a point, we decided to, where we kind of said like, okay, to hell with social distance. It's theater, we need to feel at least each other. Even if we don't touch each other physically, but at least we can come close to each other to do what we have to do. How many people were rehearsing and what was the play, or what was the theater project you worked on? We are five people in the project. It's not my project, it's the project of a stage director and a playwriter too who is named Martin Ambarra. And we are working on a project, on a live theater project with other people from Germany and elsewhere in the world. So it's a kind of international project, if I can say. So we are preparing things, yes, exactly. We are preparing things on confinement, on this confinement and we are presenting each Thursday. Well, we are 10 groups and each group is presenting his project on Thursday. One Thursday per group. Edoa, how is it for you? Are you engaged in theater at the moment and what is the situation? Yes, it was asked about the projects that we are currently doing. Are you still continuing with theater projects? Or did we take a break? Or how do we do it while we have to wear masks? Yes, there are projects that have stopped. For example, at the moment, I didn't have to be in Cameroon. I had to be in residence, writing, working on a text. So the fact of the confinement of the borders and the situation in France has stopped. And the situation is that there are really projects that have stopped like that. Let's translate. He said that some projects have stopped. He wasn't supposed to be in Cameroon right now, but he was supposed to be doing a writing residency. So he was supposed to be in residence at the Charclis in Avignon in France for writing residency. So the situation is that some of the projects are temporarily closed. Some of the projects are temporarily at least on hold. And after that, I would say that the situation... Yes, and after that, when we find ourselves in front of this event, we say, we're going to work. But in the beginning, I really couldn't work because of when to write. But it works, I think it's done voluntarily. You said that you should continue to work, but you said that you couldn't do it, and then it was cut off a little. You couldn't do it? I was saying that when I find myself in this situation, it's like we can't move, we can't stay here anymore. I said to myself, OK, I'm going to work, but I can't do it because of psychological reasons. You can't get out of these working conditions. So he wanted to, because he couldn't go anywhere, to continue to work on his own. But in the beginning, he wasn't able to because psychologically, nothing was coming out. He wasn't able to think as a writer. Are you with your family or where do you stay now? My wife and my daughter. And for how many weeks are you there in your home? How long have you been here? It's been almost a month since February. I've been here for almost two months. But I'm always there because I'm also going to visit my mother, who is already old, and my parents, who also live in Yaoundé. So that's it. I've been here two or three times a week. So he's been where he is since February, but he does go out and visit his parents a couple of times a week, two or three times a week. And Armin, are you working by yourself? Are you with your family or friends? Where do you stay? Well, I live with my brother and my junior brother. And well, as I said, three days per week, I have to go to rehearse with my colleagues. And well, apart from that, I'm really a home person. That's my nature. Usually I stay at home. I do my things at home. But when I want to go to visit my friends or my other family members, my relatives, I do go out to do that. So at times I would go to visit my grandmother or my uncles, my aunts and cousins and friends also. Yesterday, for example, I was visiting a friend who lost his father, so we were together because he's supposed to bury his father this weekend. So we were kind of supporting him. Lost it through COVID? Sorry, can you repeat? He lost it through the coronavirus? No, no, no, no, not the coronavirus. His father was sick for more than one year. So he has nothing to do with the coronavirus. So how do you feel, both as artists or as you know, in Cameroon, how do you feel in this time of corona? What goes through your mind? What are you thinking about? So what do you think about during these difficult times? As an artist, as a human being? Elvis, maybe I'll let you start answering. No. We think about what, well, as an artist, really, I admit that I think a lot more about working, but I'm working, but I'm wondering what it will look like to be the work we're doing, what it will be like to be presented or distributed. So first of all, he thinks about working, but then he's always asking himself, what is this going to, what is this work going to be like? How is it going to be presented? And as an artist, we also wonder how do you even follow that? Because it's with the artist in need of mobility, for him, the artist in need of his work to circulate, needs to circulate physically. So it's full of interrogation as an artist. So he also asks himself as an artist, how he's going to survive this because artists need to, they need to circulate, they need to move around, they need to get their works moved around. So how are they going to get out of, move past this? Yes. Well, for me as a person, as a citizen, as a person, this moment is kind of, well, maybe what I would say will be strange, but I feel fine. I mean, I feel fine, like I'm like, okay, it's something, it's kind of historical that the whole world for a certain time stopped and it is the occasion to think about what we want as humans, what we want, what we wish to have for us. Like, do we still want to live in a world where the human has been put aside and we are more focused on money, money, money, money, money, money, money and money, only on money? Or do we want to think about our society and to try to find a way to put back the human being at the center of everything? So as a person, I'm kind of very fine about this situation. Like, we have to use it to think, to really think. And as an artist, it's a moment of introspection for me because I'm like, okay, if this situation has to last longer than what we may think or what we may... Yes, if it lasts longer than what we may think, how am I going to do my work as an artist? How am I going to... I have to find a way to do something, to propose my art to the audience in a different way because for me, I'm also kind of right now questioning the real usefulness of my job as an artist. How am I being useful to the society? Am I being useful or am I just fencing being useful? So as an artist, I'm kind of questioning that currently. Yes. Do you find some answers? Yes, I do find some answers. A few answers. And I'm like, I have to... One of the answers, or I can say until now, the answer I have found, the most precise answer that I've found until now is that my job is to bring hope and strength to people right now because I know that even if here in Cameroon we are not confined or in Africa in general we are not confined, I know that elsewhere in the world people are confined and many people are really anguished or afraid of this situation. And I think that where I'm sure that one of the goals of my job is to bring hope, to raise hope, to bring hope to other people, yes. And I have to do it through... If I have to use internet to do it, where are we doing it? Aristide, are you questioning your work, the foundations of what you think about theater, what you want to do? Are you reflecting on your role as an artist and how you are useful or not, as Armin said? So Armin said that... Did you understand what she said about art? I always ask the questions, is my art useful to someone? She said yes, and you have to give hope to others. So Franck, you also asked me what you want to do in the background of your work as an artist, what do you think you should do in this moment? Yes, in this moment, I don't know, as I said, it's full of questions as an artist, on the cost, it's not possible to find solutions. That is to say that I would like to do something but I feel almost helpless. What makes even what I wrote in this moment, the projects I am working on, the writing projects, are projects that have nothing to do with the current situation. Sooner or later, I will be able to write on this situation. So as an artist, I would like to put this into the eyes. So right now, you would love for his work to offer some sort of solution, but it's not possible. He has nothing to do with what's going on, but he hopes to be able to put that into his work later on. How is it for theater artists in Cameroon? Is it easy to do theater, to create theater? What is the place of theater in your community? Well, in Cameroon, it's not easy. It's not easy because we have something very specific here. All, let me say, almost every cultural places have been closed for years now, for decades now. So we have very, very few places like the laboratory I was talking about. So that is a private initiative. But public places where people can do theater or write theater or rehearse in Cameroon, we really don't have a lot. Maybe there is what we call the Cameroonian Cultural Center in Yaoundé here, but you put that, except that we don't really have places where to work here. We are always creating, imagining or inventing places to work, to do theater. It could be courtyards, it could be houses, it could be fields that are open. But we don't really have specific places like official places where we can do theater, except when there are private places or initiatives. So it's a kind of, it's a daily fight to do our job. Elvis, Franck with Yaoundé, what are the realities of the theater in Cameroon? What are the realities of the theater work? Yes, it's like Erwin said it, because the space of the division there is practically no and there is little space. Sorry, he kind of cut out. He was saying, as I mean... maybe we just heard the sound, maybe that might help. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't know if he's there right now. But he was saying in agreement with Erwin, but there aren't a lot of... I think he'll try and reconnect. There aren't a lot of spaces for theater in the public. So they have to kind of be creative and inventive. Franck, I should say that... Yeah. One thing that's important is that Cameroon has other issues that have been affecting the country well before COVID-19 did. It's true, Erwin, that there are still other big problems in Cameroon. Yes, that's true. Before COVID-19, we already have the situation of the war, the other issues, but... Do you want to answer normally? Okay. So I was saying that before COVID-19, we are already facing very difficult situations here in Cameroon. For example, for instance, the war in the northwest and the southwest regions of Cameroon, which are the two English-speaking regions of the country. And in the far north, the region of the far north, where we are fighting Boko Haram, so these are the situations that are very, very preoccupying here for us. Before COVID-19, we were very preoccupying, and now, okay, the COVID-19 is just adding up to that, but... Yes, but I mean, I think that those two situations I'm talking about are much more serious, I mean, for our country than COVID-19, really, about the stability of our country, about peace in our country, justice and... Yes, and everything that has to do with the way our country is working is not very well working right now, since something like five years now that we are facing all these situations. Mam, do you want to say something? So... Aristide also spoke with us and said that compared to ongoing problems with malaria, for example, and other things, he felt COVID is just an additional complication in the life, but it is nowhere as much in the center as it is in Europe or in North America. Do you feel that the world understands a little bit better your situation now, which is normal for you to live with uncertainty? Is it normal for us to live with uncertainty? Maybe. Hello. Hello. I think he's still there. Okay. Yes, I can say that we are used to live with uncertainty. That's for sure. I don't know if there is... for most Africans anyway, it is very usual to live with uncertainty. We never know what to expect. I mean socially, professionally, politically. In every domain, we are always in uncertainty, so it's usual. And we just have to... How can I say it? Maybe that's what the western world in general don't get. Doesn't get like, okay, these people are living in a specific way. That has nothing to do with our own lifestyle. But maybe the major problem is that the other people, I mean westerners, most of them don't try to... are not respectful of the fact that we don't have the same problems. We may share some problems like right now we are sharing this COVID-19 pandemic, but we have malaria, we have many, many, many other things here. We have wars, we have famines, we have many, many, many, many problems. Every day, we are not sure about employment. You can go to school, have all the diplomas you want to have. That does not guarantee that you will get the job. You may find yourself just unemployed, but you went to school. You went to school very far in your studies. We have many, many things that we are dealing with every day. Maybe what we need is... that's what I am saying. I'm not saying that that's what people are saying yet, but I can say it and I can stick to it. I think that what we need here is to find solutions to our problems ourselves. And we need that people out of Africa respect that. We need them to respect the fact that we have many situations here that have nothing to do with their own situations. And we are struggling every day to get out of them. It is not easy. It is true that there is corruption. There is a lot of corruption. Yes. It's also our challenge. We have to face it and to challenge it and to find a solution to it ourselves. It is a shame that we lost Elvis because he has things to... Elvis, yes. As far as we know, 400,000 people die in Africa of malaria each year. What do you think about the Covid and Europe and America? It is reacting to it. Absolutely. I would say that there are other things like the Cameroon, the other problems even before the Covid. Amine was saying yes, there is also the war, etc. Franck said did the world understand a little more in Africa? Yes, almost everyone has to suffer with these difficulties. With the difficulties, the problems coming from this virus. Does it mean that the other countries of the world are living in Africa? Amine said that it was us, the Africans to improve our own situation. Do you see a little? Franck said what do you think about it? Is there things that the Western world doesn't understand? Yes, there are many other problems here. We are victims of many things. The bad management of our country, the corruption, the absence of cultural infrastructures as we said earlier, we have many problems. We already have problems with diseases. He said that here there are a fair amount of other problems. He mentioned corruption, also poverty as well. He said among the problems, there are also quite a number of other diseases. There is a debate that is also very important. For example, on medicine, it is a traditional medicine. For example, not in Africa, we live with a disease like autism. Every year, I get autism at least once a year. And I can cure autism without entering a pharmacy. There is also this look that the African is on other aspects that can also allow us to understand that there are also things that Africa has given to the world. Let's translate for a moment. He said there are other diseases. He said one of the things that's a big point of discussion is the traditional African treatment of medicines. He is sick with malaria and he is able to get better without ever going to the pharmacy. In terms of this point of view, it is important to understand the African perspective on traditional medication. So, he said that we need to understand the traditional medicine. He said that we need to understand the traditional medicine. He said that we need to understand the traditional medicine. There are things that Africa needs. For example, Africa works at a rhythm. We work at a rhythm of these countries. The measures that are made in Europe cannot be applied here. Because here, people live the day by day. So, Africa must create its world of developments, which is not necessarily the world of developments, the world of developments of Western countries and other realities. He said that in regards to politics, Africa needs to figure out its own way forward. So, these countries that were colonized by Europe, they still live according to the rhythm of Europe. And they need to understand how to live day by day and not necessarily deal with things, respond to things in the same way that Europe does. For instance, they need to figure out their own way of moving forward in development. Their own way of moving forward in terms of addressing COVID-19 and other things. And similarly, in terms of making their theater, they need to define their own terms in the European terms. How do you define your theater? Your theater, the theater you make, how do you define it as an indifference to Europe or others? Because you said that your theater must develop in a way other than Europe. So, how do you define your theater? Why do you define your theater as an African theater? For me, it is universal, but as a... I don't think we can make theater in a country where people die of hunger like in a country where people eat at their hunger. That is to say that whoever will tell this theater to invent other words of presentation, of division or of creation. So, at all levels, Africa must rethink. I don't necessarily have the solution, but I have to say that in a country where theater is 50 years old, 100 years old, we won't do it like in this theater. So, let's translate for a moment. So, he says that he doesn't know about his theater versus African theater. He feels it's very universal, but he believes, and he can't speak for everybody, but he believes that we have to think about what does this theater want to sell to say? What does this theater want to... What does he need to do with using of sharing it? What does it need to respond to? So, he says he doesn't have any solutions himself to offer, but he does think that we need to keep asking these... Why do you do theater? Why do you do theater? Why do you do theater? Why do you do theater? Because I like that, and I don't find other ways to describe it. I just go through that to transmit what I would like to transmit, or to say what I said. That's why even what I'm talking about, what I write, always have things that are direct to me that speak of my reality every day. So he says, I do theater because I love it, because it's the way that I find to express myself. And because it's the way that I found to say what I have to say. And I mean, why do you do theater under these complicated different circumstances? Why do I do theater in complicated circumstances? Well, I do theater because I really, first of all, because theater is all of my life. And I'm not saying it's just the kind of saying, I'm not just saying it is the truth. I was born from an artist's parent. Theater is all of my life. And I love it really. And I do theater because I really think that it's a powerful mean to transform the society, to transform people, to help people find who they really are, and find what they really want and how they can work to get to what they really want for themselves. So for me, it's a real mean to transform the society. And taking into account the realities we live in, because as Elvis said, I'm not going to do theater in Cameroon like someone does theater in France or someone does theater in the USA. No, we have to take into consideration our realities, the way people laugh, the way they dance, the way they move, the way they joke, because every society has its own way of doing things, saying things, expressing things. So for me, it's a real mean to, it's a mean to really transform things to the better. And for the better. What works? What forms of theater work best in Cameroon? What did you find? How can you communicate your stories best of what you want to say? So Elvis, I mean, I've said that for her, theater is a way of transforming society. And then Franck said, so what means, what are the forms? The forms, yes, the forms. Franck, do you mean in terms of written texts, in terms of dance, performance, dance, is it outside, inside, site-specific? What works best and what can we learn from you? The words of theater. Elvis? It's quite varied. It's quite varied because each one has its own approach. Each one has its own approach to theater. For example, for me, my approach is to present pieces in a certain style, by joining the comic, by joining a certain number of things. There are other approaches. I don't think there's a specific example. He said that he doesn't think that there's really a typical form, that the theater is still varied enough. And that for him, for example, everyone has their own approach for him. For example, he uses a lot of comedy in his theater. And that's just his own style. But he doesn't know that there's really a Kimmerian way, I should say. I mean, what can we learn from you? What do you feel works to get messages to the people and to help to transform society and community? Well, I would just say something that will, in addition to what Elvis said, because we cannot say there is a typical form here that works, because you can go, we can take a classic theater, like what was brought to us by Europeans. But there is also, as he said, there is also a comedy that works very well here. Well, depending on who practices theater and depending on the audience, you can do whatever you want to do. Because before the colonial theater form, we did have different ways to entertain here. Like the way we had storytelling, we had even dances, performances. We did have that. And we had many different things that we used to entertain ourselves. So what we do here usually is that we just use some of the elements from our traditional ways of entertainment that we add in our way of practicing theater. Depending from one stage director to another, or one play writer to another play writer. And we use it to communicate with our audience. So people are open here. They are open to what we can bring and what we can propose. Because we try to do things with them also. If you both go, let's say to an Avignon, you go to an Avignon theater festival and you see European theater works. What do you think? What goes through your mind? You asked me what you think about European theater. So when you go, for example, to an Avignon festival, what do you discover there? And what do you think? What do you think of that theater? Avignon. Avignon. What do you think of the theater you see? For example, at an Avignon festival. What do I see as a show? No. In relation to the theater of others there. What do you think? Yes, in relation to the theater of others. When I go to this festival, I realize that the theater, the different shows that I see, it's quite different. For example, for example, the show that I saw, I don't know, at the Palais des Papes or the show that I watch in one of our theaters, I really, I don't get close to elements. For example, as an author, I like the theater in text. It's this type of theater that I often choose. And so I find myself, I travel with the piece in the universe that I discover. But now I don't have a meeting, I don't have a beautiful show, but that I find very far from my reality or my practice. I didn't catch the word. You said that you like theater. In text. I like the theater where there is text. Yes, with the text. Okay. So he said that when he goes to a festival in Avignon, for example, there are so many diverse diversity among the, the difference, the different shows that you can see. And there are certain elements of different spectacles, different shows that he really gets really interested in. One thing that he really likes is text through theater. And he feels like he can sort of take the journey with, with them to follow the full narrative. But would that theater work in Cameroon, the shows you see there, are they, would they speak to people, these forms? Or do you have to find new forms? You have to reinterpret what you see. Do you have to invent other forms? Is there a different audience than in Europe, I mean? Well, the audience could accept, they could accept this aspect. And the audience could accept it, because in addition to these spectacles, there are spectacles, I said spectacular. And it's these effects, or even if the audience doesn't understand it, because it's spectacular, the audience can't handle it. So he said that, yeah, that any audience in the audience in Cameroon, for example, will accept that it's a show. And some of the shows have more spectacular elements. And so even if they don't understand all the cultural contexts and nuances, they'll still be able to follow it because there's so much else going on. Because there is, for example, a relationship with the audience here that is very different from other spectacles. Here, the audience is part of the show. Sometimes the audience does the same to the actors while they play it. And the audience has to adhere to spectacles so that they are transported to the show. So you said that there is a difference, though, between the relationship between the performers and the audience in Cameroon, because really the audience in Cameroon is part of the show. They need to be able to feel part of the show and able to fully appreciate the show that's happening. So Armin, how do you make the audience part of the show in your work? What do you do to make them participate? How do I make the audience part of the show? First of all, what I'm doing more and more now is that I don't do any performance in front of the audience. There is a stage in front of the audience and there is the audience. What I tend to do now is to have a performance that is taking place in the audience, around the audience, like at times you will have the actors that are sitting with the audience, next to someone in the audience, or just doing things around the audience. So what I try to do is to break this frontal stage audience aspect of theatre. That's my method. I think that is a very interesting method to create a performance or play or show that can be staged everywhere in the space, not only at a specific point where there is a stage and the audience is far from the stage. I always try to get the audience really not to feel far from the actors. And the actors not to feel far from the audience. They have to feel... They have to be merged. That's what I try to do in my own work. I tend to do that now. I was not doing it before, but I came to that because it was always... I was always questioning that because I was like, okay, I don't want to do a theatre where people don't feel connected. I want to do something where the audience feel connected to what is happening. So from the very beginning, I had plays where there is the actors on the stage and the audience were elsewhere, and I was like, no, I don't want to do that. I want to do something. I want to do more. So I finally came to this kind of globalising, I can say, theatre with the audience. That's very interesting. And I'm still working to it. I'm still working to it. I don't want to say that I found the final solution. It's perfect. I'm still working to it. It's interesting. Also, Emile Rau, this theatre in Ghent, when he talked to us, he kind of echoed what you said to find these forms that are outside and community to go to other places and small places. So I think you are also there at the forefront of finding forms. For both of your questions, what theatre do you admire? What inspires you? What theatre artists in the world do you look up to? Do you understand this? No, not really. The artists who inspire you? The artists who inspire me. Confi qua au lait. Confi qua au lait, yes. Confi qua au lait, que j'adore. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Emmanuel Dongala. And some musicians too. I like a lot of rappers like MC Solar. Sorry, I didn't understand. So he said certain musicians and rappers like MC Solar, Jean-Michel Basquiat. Do you have any? Do you already have any? No, I was talking about... Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. Wole so inka. I mean, for you, who inspires you? What theatre artists work? Do you know and what is important to you? Well, I would try to answer to that question because it's a question I don't like usually because I'm so... I don't know if we say eclectical in my artistic views or things like that. So it's very difficult for me to answer that question because I have a lot of artists that I admire, that are inspiring to me. But, well, let me say, I can say that in theatre, for example, I'm very, very inspired by Giodoni Nyanguna, by Kofi Kwaulay, Martin Embarra. And there is actors also that really inspired me like Diariette Toukeita and who else? Well, there are many of them. Diariette Toukeita, Yayan Bile, but also there are writers, there are singers, there are painters. Well, I have a lot of influence, artistic influence, I mean, from different artistic domains like music, paintings, visual arts, and it's difficult for me to say here, okay, this one inspired me because there are, but there are too many, if I can say, people that I really admire and what they do in their work. Yeah, that's interesting. Thank you, thank you for sharing these lists of names and also good to hear that music and visual art is so significant for you also as forms of inspiration. I feel also often, you know, theatre artists are very close to the theatre world, but the big world of writing, novelist, poetry, music, you know, is perhaps not as often an inspiration as it should be for young artists. So this is a very good reminder. We are coming close to the end of the session, maybe as a last statement, is there something what you would say to a young artist or to people in Cameroon, but also in the world, how should you use this time of confinement and of the best from your experience going through all these crises that you have before and they will be there. What do you feel is important to keep in mind? Yes, that's the last question. What would you say to other young artists? How should we respond to this? So during this time, you have to be very positive, you have to respect music, you have to be very positive, but also to use your time rationally. For example, if I can't work in a concrete way, I can do something else, I can do manual work, a little bit of sports, all that, but you have to be positive, you have to keep hope, you have to say that maybe theater also needs that, to be able to exist and create another world. So he said above all, everyone should remain positive. So during these times, yes, try and get some work done, try and write, but also doing other things, manual labor, doing a little bit of sports, above all, keep doing things in order to keep hope alive. And maybe that's what the theater can provide for people and the theater going forward will be about. I mean, what's your thoughts? Well, like Elvis, I would say that either to young artists, either to people in general, that people should, yes, people should stay positive and hopeful and people should not be afraid. And maybe we should stop trying to imagine or to guess what will be tomorrow, what tomorrow will be or what tomorrow will look like. We don't know about tomorrow. We don't know tomorrow. Tomorrow is tomorrow. I mean, it's the unknown. So we should maybe try our best to stop worrying about tomorrow, but try to stay positive and just leave. Like, and do things like, like Elvis said, if you cannot maybe do something very concrete or a very concrete work, you can do different things. You can read, you can, you can work in your garden, you should have a garden. You can try and learn something new. If it's possible for you, if you have access to internet, there are many things that people can learn to do. You can just enjoy being with your family, just enjoy being with yourself and not be afraid of introspection of really trying to, to, to, to. Yes, introspection. People should not be afraid of that. People should consider, or I think that people should think about this period as something positive, not negative. It has negative aspects. For sure. There are people dying. There are many people who are sick, but people, I think people should think about this period like something positive for all of us in general. People should stay hopeful and positive. Well, this is important reminder, you know, coming from a Cameroon, a country that has gone through civil war and war and where malaria and so many other threats to everyday life existed throughout centuries and the experience of being colonized and the identity, you know, stay positive and don't be afraid of the future and to live in the moment in the present. So these are important, important reminders from, from, from artists who have seen a lot whose families, whose friends have gone through moments where the COVID crisis might seem like a slight disturbance compared to the most serious conditions they go up with, so people live with it in Cameroon, but also all over Africa. So this is an important reminder and also I think it's important that we hear that they are looking for forms and break down the forced wall to, to engage audiences and to go to their places. So it's wonderful to hear an update from you. Thank you both for taking the time. I apologize for the complications of audio and video, but our show is live and, and, and so we have experienced some difficulties, but we also heard what you, what you said and sometimes perhaps the media missed the message. Yes, it is a difficult, difficult message to cope with. I hope you will join us next week. We will have another week with artists from around the world. Slowly we will also have, I think, curators or philosophers, thinkers next to all the artists we heard around from the world, but still next week we hear from Marietti Solestiani. She's from Indonesia, Papatier. Indonesia is a large big country and where we hear so, so, so little from. And Tuesday we have Pamela Villoresi who will tell us about Palermo and how theater is having an impact in a, in a town, you know, refugees who arrived from Africa, you know, often it's the very first stop and the mayor of Palermo has been so open and also sees his town as the town of theater. Richard Foreman, the great Richard Foreman will join us from New York on Wednesday and talk to him, talk to us about his view of the world. Thomas Oberenderer is a player, but also the director of the Berlin Festival who has over decades now invited artists to present their work and he will join us and give us his ideas and reflections on perhaps how, what is changing, what has already changed and what art can and should do. And then Philip Howell playwright from New York will and all these performance artists, he will share with us his experience of this moment. We all experience this different in different ways and I think one of the ideas here is to see that the realities we live in are just our own. They're constructed. There are many different ones that exist next to us and the significant contribution theater and performing arts makes for the world. That we understand that we do live in different realities, that there are different models we all move in and we are aware of that. And perhaps we start thinking about our process and what we process the way is how we see the world and that we should be open and that there's not one chosen one way in one theater. So thank you all for listening. Thanks for the audience. It was of course a bit technically more difficult today but it's important to hear voices from Africa. It's a great big country also a bit unknown to us and we shouldn't just follow what we just see here in the media and the work you did and also once came to the Segal. This was truly remarkable. Heather, thank you for translating and for being with us. So I hope to hear from you more. So you're all in New York and to our audience. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen. I know this isn't easy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. And congratulations on your work. We care about you and your work is very important. What you do is you're part of the global world theater community and. And we all look up to you and. And the work you do. So stay healthy. Stay safe. And all my best. Thank you for. Bye. Bye bye. Thank you for the invitation. Bye.