 Welcome to the Doctor Gundry podcast. You know I'm really excited about this episode because we have got a expert on one of my favorite subjects. Right now over 70% of Americans are either overweight or obese, which means hundreds of millions of us are at greater risk for heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. You name it. Obesity is the cause of all this. My guest today says that this can be traced back decades to the introduction of one specific food into our diet, which now makes up about 60% of the diet of most Americans. And I know you're scratching your head going what is it? Well I'm talking about processed foods and ultra processed foods that are loaded with both carbohydrates and fats. But my guest today will explain that not all carbs are bad. You can't wait for this. He's Dr. David A. Kessler and he knows firsthand the role food companies and the government have played in driving this epidemic. Back in the 1990s he served as the commissioner of the US Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, under both President George H.W. Bush and President Bill Clinton. He's been dean of both Yale and UCSF medical schools and trained and is an act of pediatrician. What a resume. And Dr. Kessler has just written a brand new book. It's called Fast Carbs, Slow Carbs, the Simple Truth about Food, Weight and Disease. So on today's episode he and I will talk about why fast carbs are bad for you, how our diets became so unhealthy, and what we can do about it. Dr. Kessler, it's pleasure to have you on the podcast. It's a pleasure. So you served in two presidential administrations. What was your role there? And what did it teach you about the way the food industry works? So I was commissioner of FDA under the first President Bush. I was reappointed by President Clinton, stayed there seven years, which is pretty long, pretty unusual for an FDA commissioner to be under two presidents, especially of different parties. You may remember that when we were at FDA, we did the food label, the nutrition facts. And that was probably one of the great battles I meant. I had the privilege of taking on tobacco. I was there for the HIV epidemic. There was only one drug when I got there. And by the time we left about seven years later, that disease had been transformed, not cured by any means, but there were a lot of drugs on the market. But no doubt getting that nutrition facts, panel that nutrition facts, that information, that was a real fight with the food industry. They lobbied intensely. They didn't want to put that information on all packaged foods. Yeah, this is something I actually, I have multiple food labels in my office that I show patients how to read properly, because you're absolutely right. And I think I want you to stress this some more. Food companies actively resisted even these simple labels. And you and I both know, you certainly more than I, the way they tried to prevent real information from getting on to those labels. You know, it almost didn't happen. One day, the Secretary of Agriculture said to me, I'm taking the issue to the president. And I said, what? And he said, we do not at the Department of Agriculture, in part because they represented a large part of the meat, saturated fat, you know, products that were high in saturated fat, they didn't think their products would look very good with that nutrition facts label. He says, I'm taking it to the president. And I said, what? He says, no, we're going to the Oval Office. And, you know, picture the scene in the Oval Office, it was President Bush, the father, Dan Quayle, the vice president, Marlon Fitzwater, the press secretary, Jim Baker, the Secretary of State, Secretary Sullivan, Secretary Madigan, six guys who've never cooked in their lives deciding the fate of the food label. And we had been, you know, up and down. It was August, we were coming back from a little time away with the kids. And we had stopped at a McDonald's. And the, I don't know if you ever, so they had the placemats, those paper placemats on the trays. And we had worked with McDonald's to get the nutrition facts, a prototype on that placemat for some of their products. And when the Secretary of Agriculture said, Mr. President, FDA has lost its mind, it's not going to require the industry to spend billions of dollars, you know, take out that placemat, hand it to the president, and say, Mr. President, if it's good enough for McDonald's, it should be good enough for the Department of Agriculture. And that's how policy is made in this country, because the president sided with us, you know, the six of them were sitting there looking at this McDonald's placemat. So I hope you're not saying that to change policy in America, you need to stop at McDonald's, but maybe you are. Well, I mean, it's sometimes it's not the science that drives every policy decision. But it worked. So how how insidious in government and at the FDA, but in the Department of Agriculture, is, you know, food industry in terms of making policy? Certainly, it's a very sophisticated industry. They have lobbyists throughout the town. And they are listened to. But I'm not sure the word insidious mean is the right word. I mean, if you really step back and ask how did we get to where we are? I don't think it's just the lobbyists of today. But you know, as I've been was researching for the book, you go back 200 years. And if you go to Mount Vernon, and you look up at the ceiling, and you can see the sheaves of wheat on the ceiling. And Washington, Washington wrote to Lafayette that he had hoped that one day America would become the granary for the world. And we built this enormous infrastructure. I mean, in part, it was consistent with the soil, the farmlands, we were able to mechanize all grain production. And if you look, you know, it just that the enormity of how much of our food supply comes from comes from starch. It's just processed grains that have been ultra processed that have had the structure just pummeled out of it. And if you look at the the processing techniques, the extrusion, one of the techniques, the thermo, the heat, the mechanical forces that take that kernel of that energy and just use such force in processing such that the surface area of those carbohydrates get rapidly absorbed into our GI tract. And we never asked. We never asked what were the consequences, metabolically, biologically, of just that flood of rapidly absorbable glucose into our bodies. So I mean, did food companies know they were doing this or how did they find that this stuff was so addictive? Well, you know, there's a there's a couple of different, you know, ways to answer, to answer that question. I mean, that that wheat kernel, that goal, that energy that which sustained, you know, the species for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, they were able to take that wheat kernel and make it into thousands of products. They not only did they use very extensive thermo, mechanical forces on it, I mean, starch is really the delivery vehicle for fat, sugar and salt. You know, exactly what they knew. They knew what Americans, you know, aid, they knew what Americans kept on coming back for. They certainly understood how to make food hyper palatable. But I think on the metabolic consequences, you know, we've always said, these processed foods are not good for us. But we really have never understood the extent of their effect on our metabolism. No one really asked what was the consequences of just flooding our bodies with these rapidly absorbable glucose. You know, it was always a calorie was a calorie, it didn't make a difference. What that calorie was. And, you know, we, we basically viewed our GI track, I mean, as almost a tube that absorbed these foods, we didn't understand the sensors, the hormones, the nerves, the implications of what it was to rapidly absorb higher up in the GI tract. So the food doesn't even get down into your lower GI tract to stimulate other hormones and other signals to give feelings of satiety and fullness. So you know, there are many different levels upon which that rapidly absorbable glucose, and we've just never really asked the question to what are the consequences mean until relatively recently. So what you're saying for our listeners and viewers is that a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie. And a carbohydrate is not necessarily a carbohydrate the way we have been traditionally thought to think about them. So certainly a calorie is a calorie when it comes to just energy content. I mean, there's no doubt about, you know, the laws of thermodynamics, but the consequences of different types of carbohydrate and how our body handles them. That I don't think has been fully understood. And that's why I wrote the book. It's really about carbohydrate quality, more than anything else, and really destroying the structure of our food. I mean, that's really the bottom line message. What processing does is it takes that kernel, it strips away, and opens up that that endosperm that starch and widely disperses it. So any structure, any fiber, any chance that that food will get lowered down in your GI tract is lost. And then that those mechanical thermo mechanical forces very much increase the surface area of that starch and expands it so our enzymes can get to that and digest that so rapidly that that stimulating hormones, they just have very many consequences. It's, you know, it has consequences at the level of the mouth. Because the the food is so soft, it's almost it's pre digested. We don't chew it goes down in a whoosh that affects eating area. It has fat sugar and salt in it that stimulates our brain. It stimulates the GI P hormones that set off these insulin cascades that affect not only metabolism, but also the brain reward circuits. And if it doesn't even get a chance to get to the load or GI tract to stimulate other important hormones and signals, and we never fully understood the consequences of that process. I think you bring up a good point. I've been fascinated with the Kellogg's brothers, among other reasons, because they were a seventh day Adventist sanitarium in Battle Greek. And I was a professor and chairman at Loma Linda University for many years, which is an Adventist medical school. And I was fascinated that the original premise of Kellogg's corn flakes and the advertising behind it was it was pre digested food. And what they had found at their sanitarium was that they were very big on grains, obviously, but they are their patients wouldn't eat them, because they were too hard to eat. And so they figured out that if they, you know, pre digested it, it would ease the metabolism of breaking down food. And that was actually one of the big selling points that started so serial off in Battle Creek, Michigan. So, you know, the issue is the food environment. And, you know, I think, I mean, in decades past, I mean, certainly in centuries past, when we barely had enough food to be an energy balance. You know, I think that those calories that came from those pre digested foods didn't pose perhaps as great a challenge as they do when you are in the modern day food environment. I mean, my greatest concern is the fact that if you look just a remarkable number by a group at the University of North Carolina, if you just look at weight, blood glucose, blood lipids, and blood pressure, only 12.2% of Americans currently meet those guidelines. I mean, 87% of us are metabolically challenged. And the fact is that we're walking around for most of the day in a positive energy balance. And my greatest concern is the effect of these process rapidly absorbable carbohydrates in that context, in that environment, in that physiology. Because I think that, you know, there's some, you know, 90 million people, I mean, who are pre diabetic, those who have diabetes. And when you take these process carbs, and it's things I don't think the Kellogg brothers on certainly they didn't understand the medicine of this. You know, back when they did it, we were not our bodies warrant majority of us warrant is metabolically challenged as we are today. And those rapidly absorbable carbohydrates to those who are metabolically vulnerable to those who are in this cycle of weight gain, insulin resistance, add those processed carbs to those individuals. And you're really dealing with, I mean, I mean, it's, it's like fire. I mean, it's like their process poisons for those individuals. And that's not the way it was centuries ago, when we were barely in energy balance. No, I think it's great. And I want to go back to something you mentioned, which I think is really important, certainly from from my work and my research, these, you know, incredibly processed carbohydrates, as you say, are rapidly absorbed out of our small intestine, and nothing that particularly the slow carbohydrates and the soluble fiber that would normally get down to our large intestine, our colon, where most of our microbiome lives. And as you and I both know, and I'll preach, you know, forever, that we've got to feed those guys what they want and need because they're one of the keys to satiety to hormone production. And I think you're you're spot on that these highly processed carbohydrates may have the same amount of energy that they had 200 300 years ago. But now the the additional fibers that are colon microbiome needs never never arrives. Is that your way of thinking? You just, Steve, you said it more eloquently than I can. And is it we're learning more and more about the microbiome? Is it the microbiome? Is it other hormones, the GLP one hormones in the lower part of the gut? What's the relative contribution? I'm not sure. But I certainly mean, think about it for a moment. What are the two sort of real stalwarts of nutrition that I think we could all mean agree on, right? I use we know that fiber has benefit real fiber in food. And we know that plants and vegetables, you know, are correlated in every study with improved outcome. And what is it about that fiber and those plants? That is key. They don't. They're the antithesis of rapidly absorbable carbohydrates. So is it that those vegetables and those fibers are good for us because they get to the lower part of the colon? Or is it that they don't have these rapidly absorbable glucose? I mean, I, you know, I can't tell you the relative contribution. But the real problem, I think, and I think that, you know, we have people on all sides of the nutrition debate, low carb, low fat, carnivore diet, pick any diet if you really want to cut through the noise, right? And see, you know, what is it that really makes a difference? And that's why I did the book. I mean, I think the the first thing I think there's several other things. But I think the thing that we can agree on is to limit or markedly reduce rapidly absorbable carbohydrates or as I call them fast carbs. It's not just sugar. It's sugar and starch. It's these rapidly absorbable glucoses that are throwing our bodies into metabolic chaos. So give me an example. What's what's the worst culprit out there? Come on, what's name names? What are the really bad foods? Well, I mean, I mean, walk up and down the supermarket aisle. I mean, 60, 70% of, you know, our diets, I mean, our carbohydrates and the vast majority of that is processed carbs. And the vast majority of that is rapidly absorbable glucose. It's starch. I mean, you know, I think, you know, I went back and I love walking up and down the supermarket aisle and just picking up packages. Let me give you a imagine in your head, the following nutrition panel, about four, about 330 calories per serving, right, sugar, zero, total fat, zero, saturated fat, zero, total carbs, about 30% of your daily value protein about 4% right, no fat, no sugar, just total carbs and some protein. You look at that label, you know, and I thought we had done a good job. What is what do you think that food is? What's your guess? It's, oh, I could name so many, but it's most of the products that you can pick up in a bag. I just defined the bagel. Right? That's about 4% 4% soft, right? But it just has total carbs. And the reality is it's, I mean, it's starch. I mean, it's refined flour. And it says 0% sugar. It says 0% fat. We thought that those total carbohydrates, or at least I thought, were they were relatively bland, they were relatively innocuous. And I just never lumped them in the same categories as fat, sugar and salt. And that was a mistake. Oh, wait a minute, you're hearing it right here for the first time. The commissioner has told us that that was a mistake. And thank you for saying that because actually, I take something like a bagel or even some of these healthy new chips. And I show people the the label. And they always point to the fact that, oh, look, it has no sugar, or it has one gram of sugar. And it's great. And it's wait a minute. To read a label, and you know, I'll have you say this as well, you look at the total carbohydrates, and then you take away the fiber, which doesn't count in my opinion, or is actually really good. And that'll tell you the sugar. Yeah, and that'll tell you the sugar content of that product. And then what I do is I have them divide by four, because there's four grams of sugar per teaspoon. And I just did this yesterday in my office, and they were eating a healthy taro root chip, unbeknownst to them per serving, there was actually five teaspoons of sugar in their healthy taro root chips, because they'd been processed. Well, I mean, if you take that bagel, and you add, I mean, there's no sugar in it, right? It's all starch. It's but those that starch has certainly that kernel has the chains of the starch molecules have been cut down that surface area of that starch granule is been increased dramatically, it's going to get rapidly absorbed. And the reality is that it has the same ability to increase blood glucose as some 23 teaspoons of sugar. So even though there's no sugar in it, that starch has the ability to convert and is rapidly absorbed glucose. And that is driving are driving us I mean, in significant part in our bodies into metabolic chaos. You know, I mean, if you go back and you look at the it's really amazing that in 2020, if I say, what's the consequences of this rapidly absorbable glucose from both starch and sugar being absorbed almost constantly in the upper GI? I mean, what's the consequences to our health? And you ask nutritionist that they can't answer. I mean, does that is it just calories that cause obesity? Or does in fact, that rapidly absorbable glucose? Does it increase blood glucose? Does it increase insulin levels? Does you know, which comes first? Is it the obesity? Is it the hyperinsulinemia? It almost doesn't matter. Because in an environment that would have excess caloric intake. I mean, we get caught in this vicious cycle of obesity, and hyperinsulinemia, and elevated glucose. And, you know, we wonder why we can't lose weight and keep it off. Because once you're in that vicious cycle, our bodies are really just they're thrown out of whack. All right. So you wrote the book to alert us of this danger. But the second part of the title is slow carbs. So how do we get this train wreck back on the tracks? Well, so what's the best slow carb? What doesn't contain rapidly absorbable glucose when it's ingested? I mean, and, you know, that's, you know, we sort of knew it, but we didn't quite know it in these terms. I mean, it's why a plant based diet, it's why vegetables, I mean, those are the ultimate slow carbs, right? They don't have this rapidly absorbable glucose is very little in it. They do not have this the structure just whacked out of it, structure is intact. And it has that that fiber is part of that structure and they are the ultimate slow carbs. And we can talk about other types of grains that mean rye, buckwheat, other grains, their intact whole grains that are more slowly digestible. But the reality is the best slow carb there is, I mean, is the vegetable that we've been talking about. And because they, they have the structure, they have the fiber, they, they resist this rapid absorption in the upper GI tract. Yeah, as you as you know, if I could get people to eat greens all day. In fact, one of my original sayings was if you eat greens, you'll become lean. It's, it's impossible not to. And you do, you're right, these these foods are, you can't break them down fast enough, you don't have the enzyme systems and you actually need bacteria to actually break down and intact cell wall. That's exactly correct. I mean, it's not rapidly absorbed. It's the antithesis of these fast carbs. Look, I, I don't think I think it's very hard to eliminate the reality of all fast carbs from the diet. And there's also me the question is what are you? What do you replace those fast carbs with? And that's a great debate and love to talk to you about that because I think there's an enormous opportunity, not only the ability to get back our, you know, our bodies into some metabolic normalcy and, you know, be able to control our weight and to control our blood glucose. But the real question is what do you do when you want to cut these out? What do you replace those calories with? And, you know, that brings up the whole, you know, low carb debate. And, you know, I have great friends who have, you know, I think have seen the problems with these fast carbs and with these rapidly absorbable carbohydrates. But, you know, there was another thing that happened to me as I did the research for the book and I spent a lot of time trying to understand the drivers of acute atherosclerotic heart disease. And, you know, the nutrition community, I don't think is understandably as focused on that as the cardiology community. But we now know that these blood lipids, the LDL, more specifically, you know, the LDL particles who have ApoB on that. The reality is that those are causal. They're certainly in the causal chain of atherosclerotic heart disease. And, you know, part of my job at FDA was to insist on these very large drug trials to make sure we had the data. And the reality is certainly from the drug data, the lower you get LDL, the more you can decrease cardiovascular risk, atherosclerotic cardiovascular risk. We can get LDL down in this country, you know, just to 70, let's say on the average, we can wipe out 70, 80% of atherosclerotic heart disease. And it would be as big a contribution as we've had from tobacco. But that involves getting lipids down, especially LDL particles. And the question is how to do that. And, you know, I mean, the studies on LDL risk, really, the real randomized clinical trials come from the from the drug side. And I don't want to just sit here, you know, and advocate on the drug side. But we do know that you could reduce a plant based diet, we can reduce LDL by some 40% in any cases. Now, maybe it's not as powerful as drugs and certain people it is. But in others, the drugs are more powerful and can get down lower. But I think as a country, I mean, if we can do three things, if we can markedly reduce these fast carbs, if we can get our LDL numbers down. And if we engage in just moderate intensity exercise, to be able to maintain our insulin sensitivity, limit our fast carbs, get our LDL down. However you want to do it, and engage in moderate intensity exercise, I think we could dramatically change the health. Not only ourselves and our families, but of the entire country. Yeah, I've been preaching for over 20 years now that if if I'm looking at a lipid panel, the first thing I do is look at triglycerides, which in general come from sugar and starch metabolism in the liver. Correct. And lowering the triglycerides is my number one objective. Because when triglycerides go down, LDL follows. And the other great thing that happens in all my patients is that as as triglycerides go down, HDL goes up. And that actually that the triglyceride HDL ratio is the is the ratio that I use in my patients to determine, you know, how I'm doing. And I also use oxidized LDL, because in my humble opinion, it's whether these LDL particles are actually going rancid or rusty, that actually stimulates the atherosclerotic cascade at the endothelial level. But I couldn't agree with you more, if we get processed fast carbs out of the diet, it's amazing how triglycerides plummet, they just plummet. I think that's exactly right. I think it's a combination. I think there's no doubt. You know, there are a lot of terms that that the blood lipid lipidologists can use. I think we're talking about the non HDL, lipoproteins. And that's really the APOB LDLs and the triglycerides. And I think getting those down, however you want to do it. And I think there are a lot of different options. And I think we have to be open to that. But reducing those fast carbs and then markedly lowering LDL, I think is probably the greatest chance to improve your health, certainly when it comes to metabolic and cardiovascular disease. Okay, you mentioned getting fast carbs away from people is hard to do. What help me out here? What do you say? What do you replace these things with on a daily basis? Give me one exchange. What are you trading your bagel for? Well, so I mean, one of the things I did in the book, even though the book, you know, is tries to explain the science and tries to be accessible. One of the things I did is to do exactly that. In the back of the book, I had one of the great PhD dietitians from London helped me do those substitutions. And, you know, my general view right now, is that anything that's not a processed carb, you could eat. And, you know, there's no doubt that those processed carbs are, you know, fill most of our diet and they're super palatable, hyper palatable. But it's anything you can go to intact whole grains. I mean, in breakfast, you can go to any form of protein. You can go to plant proteins. You know, you know, the real question still remains on saturated fat. And I think that the most important thing is to get those fast carbs out of the diet. But for those people whose saturated fat increases their LDL, and I've seen that you switch people to a carnivore or the old Atkins kind of diet, they bump their LDL on average by about 10% some as high as 30% and that's sending the LDL in the wrong, wrong direction. But I think the most important thing is just cut out the processed carbs. Anything that's not processed carbs, I think is fair gain. Yeah, I'd put a word of warning here, at least from my perspective, that there's no such thing as a healthy whole grain, because when people read labels, they see the word whole grain, but these are for the most part, processed whole grains, exactly getting back to what you're trying to protect against. Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I added somewhat and I again, I didn't see it. I didn't fully understand it. But the vast majority of those whole grains, what happens is that they are processed, that wheat kernel is processed just like any other refined carbohydrate, and the brand is simply added back. But the rest of that endosperm is highly processed. And while there may be some benefit, no doubt, to adding that brand back, it is anything but a slow carb. Great. Thanks for clarifying that because I actually have examples of whole grain bread and whole grain crackers in my office. And I, you know, have the patients show me where the whole grains are. And they can't because obviously there aren't any, you know, whole grains in there. It's all sadly a ruse. You know, I think the labeling laws was an amazingly good idea. But I think your point when we started the show was the labeling laws have been so manipulated by companies, the pressure that was put on you as the FDA commissioner. But it was a part we didn't understand the biology of the GI tract. We didn't understand the differences that had made a difference, whether the food structure was intact. We didn't understand that where in the GI tract, the food was absorbed, what it stimulated, both at the level of the mouth, the brain, the upper GI tract, the lower GI attack, the microbiome, we didn't understand that. We focused on fat, sugar, and salt. Yes, there are issues, but we left out, I think the, you know, the bulk of the problem, which is very honestly, starch is process carbs. Great to have you on the program. Where do people find out about the book? Where do they find out about you and what you're doing? Comes out the book comes out on March 31. It's should be at everyone's wherever you buy books. Go to your local bookstore, please. Local bookstore. Absolutely. And it's fast carbs, slow carbs. And I try to make it accessible. I try to make it understandable. There are certainly references in there for those in the health community, but it's meant to be an easy read. And it's the real goal is to change how you look at food. Great. So before I let you go, we always have an audience question. And I'm going to have you help me out on this one if you don't mind. So Valerie asks, what is the healthiest way to gain weight while adhering to plant paradox recommendations? My husband is six six and can't get enough calories to maintain his weight. And I think this is actually a great question because we're talking about fast carbs and slow carbs. And most people think to gain weight, you got to have these fast carbs. What, what do you think? So I mean, I think the only they're probably only two instances where fast carbs have a role. Right. And I think, and one is in the extreme, if you're feeding somebody intravenously, and you, you know, you're in an acute situation, the issue also has to do, and it's more complicated, I think in the very early year of first year of life. Other than that, I think that anything that's not a processed carb would be fair gain to be able to sustain weight. I think that staying away from fast carbs, and if you can do that, but in composite diet to be an energy balance, I think that's the best rule. Yeah, I think that's really important. So I do have people who do lose a lot of weight by following my program. Most of it, you know, obviously, well needed weight loss. But there are certain people who it is difficult to maintain their weight. What I've done is actually increase their nut consumption, particularly macadamia nuts. And I really urge people in this category to use the non lectin containing grains, which are millet and sorghum, and to use lots of the traditional fiber containing foods like yams, like sweet potatoes, like turnips, like parsnips. And I personally view them as a delivery device for olive oil, as all of my listeners know. But on this regimen, knock on wood, we've never been able to not get weight on people. But what I see disastrously is exactly what Dr. Kessler has talked about is many people to gain weight, they go back to the bagels and the chips and all these slow carbohydrates. And yes, they do gain weight. But their lipid profile goes out of whack, their insulin starts going up. And very rapidly, we're back to where we started. So you know, one of the things that I don't think we've done people a service by, you know, one thing we just have not really explained is that you can't, you know, diets that last, you know, three months, four months, five months, you lose the weight, go back, add back those fast carbs, and you're going to gain back the weight. The reality is if you want to lose weight, whatever diet you're going to choose, you're going to have to be on it for the duration. The reason why these all these diet studies are a hockey puck, when you look at the graph, and the weight gain, we start regaining it at six months as people go off it. And the reality is that those fast carbs throw your body back into a metabolic vicious cycle, that's very hard to maintain weight loss when you're in that metabolic chaos. Very good. It's a great place to end the program. And Dr. Kessler, good luck with the book and hope to meet up with you face to face someday. Dr. Gundry, a real pleasure. Thanks for the kindness. Thank you very much. All right. Take care. It's time for a review of the week from Apple podcast Boca Jr. 5553. Love this podcast and the great advice from Dr. Gundry. I am confused about all of the supplements recommended in the plant paradox. Could you give a list of which basic supplements to take daily? Well, I actually do give those lists in all my books. And really, if if I had three supplements to tell any human being to take, it would be vitamin D3 bare minimum is 5000 international units a day. If you're used to the milligram system, that's 125 milligrams. And fish oil, whether you get it as omega threes from fish or whether you get it as long chain omega threes from algae. Those are two of the biggest things that you should get. The third thing is I recommend that everyone take timed release vitamin C about 1000 milligrams twice a day. If you can't find or can't afford time release vitamin C, get yourself some chewable vitamin C tablets put four in your pocket and chew those tablets every four four times a day. It's one of the best things you can do to improve your long term heart health, artery health, and oh, by the way, vitamin C on a continuous basis is really effective at preventing flu as is the vitamin D. So those are my quickie recommendations. So that's it. We'll see you next week on the Dr. Gundry Podcast. We got another good one coming up for you. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.