 Hello everybody. I'm Bob Rosenfeld, one of the members of the program committee. We put together a program like this several times a year, and we're always welcome to come visit us. I want to first of all thank the senior center for inviting us to use this lovely facility. We're really glad that they're such an enthusiastic supporter of what we do. Today's program is our last one in this building for the semester. Next week we move to the Savoy Theater, and that will be the first of three film programs led by Rick Winston. And it will start with the film It Happened One Night, which is a famous on-the-road book store. And for those of you who are a little old, the stars are Clark Gable, Claudette, and if you have any questions about that, or any suggestions for other programs, please talk to me or any one of our members of our program committee who can raise their hands. If you can recognize the rest of their bodies, you can talk to them. As you all know, because here you are, our speaker today is Chris Craft, and I am eager to let him have the stage. But I cannot hand the mic to him quite yet, because I really, really, really want to mention that he's part of a unique group that's ever talked to us. The entire member of his entire membership, his family, have been speakers here. Not only Chris, but his wife, Nancy, and his son, Gareth, there's no Gareth. I think Nancy has something to do with it too. And they're part of the music group. So, because it's cool, this has never happened before. I just thought like a regular person. It is my great pleasure to welcome Chris this afternoon. But in this case, like I really mean that, it is a genuine pleasure. I'm fortunate to know Chris, and I greatly admire him. He's a person of great integrity, insight, a thoughtful observer, with a deep professional, journalist understanding political history of Vermont. I like him. Many of you recognize his name from more than 25 years. He was the bureau chief for AP in Vermont. And some of you recognize his face, what you can see on it. Because for more than 10 years, he was doing regular television broadcasts on public television. The program called Vermont This Week. And a special series called The Governors, which was interviewed with all the governors who were alive when he was able to talk to them. And so there is no one better informed by decades of thoughtful work and scholarship to talk to us today about the political history of Vermont and to tell us why Vermont is what America wants to be. Thank you for all being here today, since it is one of those rare one in 365 days in which the sun is out in Montpelier, Vermont. For you to sacrifice one hour of sunshine to be here is absolutely the greatest compliment that you can pay me. If I weren't speaking, I wouldn't be here. And thank you, Bob, for that introduction. Grace was supposed to introduce me and couldn't be here today. I'm secretly very pleased that Grace isn't here today, because Nancy told me about a week ago, when Grace thought she was going to be here, that she had read my book, Dateline Vermont, in preparation for introducing me. Well that scared the daylights out of me. I haven't read my book in 16 years, and so my stress levels went way up thinking, oh my goodness, she knows the details and things that I have long forgotten. So I'm happy that Bob's here, so that he can't quiz me on some of the, you know, like, well on page 246, you should have said this. It's also wonderful to speak to a mature audience. Let me explain that. Every year for 12 years, I've spoken to Jim Douglas's college class in Middlebury College. He teaches a January term course on State Government and Politics in Vermont, and I've spoken every year, and I sort of have this set thing that I do. Well, they're supposed to read Dateline Vermont. I've done it for 12 years, and I don't think any of them has ever cracked the book. But when I first started speaking to them 12 years ago, I would talk about Jim Jeffert's Declaration of Independence. I would talk about Howard Dean, and then one year, maybe eight years ago, I started thinking about Jim Jeffert's, and they all looked glassy-eyed. And they all, and I just sort of stopped and said to myself, well, it is eight o'clock on a Monday morning. This is a college audience. Maybe this is the best reaction I can get. And then it occurred to me. And so I asked them by a show of hands, how many of you know who Jim Jeffert's is? And not one hand went up. And afterwards, the assistant professor in that class came up to me and said, you do realize they were eight years old when Jim Jeffert's left the Republican Party. And so I said, yeah, I guess they would. And I've seen it continue. When I spoke there this year, none of them knew who Howard Dean was. And it used to be they all knew who Howard Dean was, and now all they cared about was Bernie. But speaking of mature audiences, I don't know if you saw recently, I was shocked to see that Tom Salmon was 90 years old. There was a picture of him where he's living now in Windsor County. And Ginny, I don't know if you guys protested in Tom Salmon's offices or not. I can't remember that far back. No, it was Snelling. It was Snelling. I tried to do the Snelling's office ones. But golly, that sort of puts you in perspective when you go, whoa, Tom Salmon's 90. First of all, those of you who might have been around then it was like in the 1970s for that group of folks at the Little Valley House or the Brown Derby. It's amazing he survived this long to 90. But it was just wonderful to see the picture of him because he looked exactly the same as he does. And Tom Salmon was, he was just such a great person to cover. He was the person who gave us lines like, education is the fourth leg of the tripod of the Vermont State economy. In that period we had Senator Gilbert Godnick. Many of you may have remembered him as the mayor of Rutland or Godnick's furniture. All of those stories. You know, he used to say things like, we'll burn that bridge when we get to it. But there's always one rotten egg in every bushel of apples. Well, my favorite, you three make quite a pair. But the reason I mentioned Tom Salmon was when I first went to the State House as a reporter it was as a student at Middlebury College working at the college radio station. And it was to cover his inauguration in 1973. If any of you have read Dateline Vermont, you do know that I went up there years earlier as a eighth grade student. I think it was, I was 13 years old. But all students did at that time to meet the governor, see the State House. And in my case, the only memory I carried from there was seeing the men's bathroom in the basement. This ornate men's bathroom, just marble and brass. It was unbelievable. And my classmates and I, the mail ones, all took pictures of ourselves in that bathroom. And then when I came back to the State House as a reporter I went to find it. I couldn't find that bathroom. And it turns out that it's in the basement and it's only used for tour groups. And then when Nancy was writing the history of the State House I found out it had been built, I think it was 1883, around there. And at the time all the legislators retired going out back to the outhouses. And so they built this bathroom. And it was the only bathroom they needed because there were no women in the State House at that time. But I went back to the State House as a reporter at the college level in 1973 to cover Tom Salmon's inauguration. And prior to this ceremony I was walking up what is now Governor Davis Avenue, next to the Pavilion. And there was Tom Salmon, the governor-elect, walking by himself with a state police trooper dressed in civilian clothes. And I was just blown away by that. The fact that there was no entourage, that there was no major secret service, that it was just the governor-elect walking along the street with a state police trooper dressed in civilian clothes. And you can still see that today. You know that. That you will see Phil Scott walking down the street with just a state police trooper. And it is part of what makes Vermont special. And I think it is part of what is what I'm going to talk about today. The theme is that we have something very special here. And we take it for granted. And when the rest of the nation sees it they are shocked and surprised by it. And some of it is just that. The governor is walking down the street by himself. There is an approachability. Those of us who do live in Montpelier are not surprised if we are at the Montpelier Farmers Market in the summer and we see Pat Leahy walking along there. With his grandchildren, and now if you see him because he is president pro tem and third blind to the presidency you will see capital security with him. But he is just here in Marseille walking along the farmers market and yet he is one of the most powerful people in America. And that is what we expect in Vermont. We expect that approachability. But I think it also gives our leaders some traits which is why they become so popular with the rest of the nation. Ours remains a government of human scale. And I am going to talk about I think three people who make this true and like I said it is so nice that you are a mature audience because I don't have to go back. You know what is funny about an audience like this you can just throw out a name you can say like Fred Tuttle and everyone will laugh because they know exactly the story I am telling or would tell. I am not going to talk about Fred Tuttle today. I am going to start with Howard Dean and when he ran for president no one especially Howard Dean thought his candidacy would catch on. He thought it would be a way for him to raise the issue of health care at a national stage. He thought there might be a little cache with him being a doctor and talking about health care. And he also you know in the back of his head he held on to this thing well you know maybe I will do really well in New Hampshire and the nation will take a look at me. Well the nation took a look at him a whole year before the New Hampshire primary and they loved what they saw. And what it started with was an appearance before the Democratic National Committee in February of 2003. And Howard Dean's all it was a cattle call where all the candidates appeared and they all had let's say two minutes to make their case before the entire DNC. And Howard got up there and I remember watching it and thinking at the time boy he really sounds nervous and I was sort of focused on that and thinking yeah yeah you know but everyone else heard the message and they heard what he was saying. And I don't know if you remember this at all but he just stood up there and read a number he didn't read he was just talking from the heart a number of questions challenging the establishment. And he said what I want to know is why in the world the Democratic Party leadership is supporting the president's unilateral attack on Iraq. What I want to know is why are Democratic Party leaders supporting tax cuts. And he went on and on and on. And the Washington press and the rest of those who watch politics went nuts because nobody had challenged the establishment like that. And it was a little like the Emperor's New Clothes and Howard Dean was the little boy that said but the Emperor has no clothes. And his campaign then took off and those of you who remember it took off with lines like you have the power telling people that it really resonated or we are going to take our country back. And what made Howard Dean from that moment on in February of 2003 almost a year he was the front runner for the presidential nomination the Democratic nomination and he transformed politics too in a way that led to the election eventually of Barack Obama for the use of the internet. But when you think about Howard Dean he wasn't an orator he was just sort of a pretty humble guy even though he wasn't very humble in the way we thought in Vermont we sort of thought a pretty arrogant guy. But once you step outside the border of Vermont people see you differently because they see you against the constellation of all the people and leaders they are familiar with. So Howard Dean in Vermont remember he used to bring his kids to the governor's office and let them run around because his wife would say hey you may be governor but I'm a doctor and I've got office hours today it's your turn to watch the kids. And he made sure that his governor's schedule always allowed him to attend their hockey teams hockey competitions. And sometimes he was the one in the stands that you sort of say who is that guy yelling at the rest and stuff like that. But Howard Dean came across in that campaign as honest as straight talking and being very direct. I remember I campaigned with him early or covered him campaigning early in New York City and he was at a fundraiser where you could tell people weren't really sure who this guy was but as he spoke there was a quiet it was one of those very noisy things but people got quiet and they listened to him and when they would ask questions he did something that George Aiken used to do that used to drive the press nuts he'd answer yes or no politicians don't do that and you have to remember in 2003 and 4 basically Howard Dean was running against a bunch of United States Senators and United States Senators cannot speak English they answer every question with a paragraph or a question or they're really good filibustering and Howard Dean wasn't what I say about George Aiken George Aiken used to go on you can quote me some of you may remember that when it actually was a huge show for WCAX and Mickey Gallagher and Charlie Lewis they would have like 20 questions ready to ask Senator Aiken and they'd be done with him in 10 minutes because he answered everything either yes or no and he wouldn't speak and that's sort of what Vermont politicians do but it is so unusual outside of Vermont and that's the case with Bernie Sanders too Bernie Sanders is straight talking he is authentic he and Howard Dean both they're very different absolutely different people but they tapped into the same vein of public sentiment across the country people who were dissatisfied disillusioned and they felt that there was these were two honest leaders who were telling him like it is now those of us who have been around sort of like forever know that Bernie Sanders hasn't changed his mind since the first time I covered him in 1974 the only thing that's changed is in 1974 when he was running for the U.S. Senate by the way against Pat Leahy in that campaign Bernie Sanders talked about the millionaires now he talks about the billionaires so he's just changed the M to a B in other words everything is exactly the same Howard Dean and Bernie Sanders they come across as absolutely authentic and you see Howard Dean when he was campaigning he carried his own garment bag there were pictures of that Bernie Sanders there's just never an entourage even when he was at the peak of his campaign it's just you would see there's Bernie and I think that that authenticity that is required to succeed in Vermont is what sets them apart when they go across the nation and I also think then that it comes to the third example that I'm going to use today which is Jim Jeffords Declaration of Independence you know Jim Jeffords all of you remember Jim Jeffords in the House and the Senate when he was first elected to the House in 1974 he lived in a camper an RV in a parking lot in Washington because he couldn't afford the rents down there and he he is one of the few might be the only at that time member of the US House or US Senate who never appeared on a Sunday talk show had no interest in it he just did not care he was a workhorse he worked hard in the committees and he got things done but his declaration of independence in 2001 it shocked Washington and it shocked the nation as well some of you remember that the majority leader at the time Trent Lott called Jeffords Declaration and it's leaving the Republican Party a coup of one an effort to undermine democracy because you remember what happened was the Senate was 50-50 does that sound familiar and by changing from a Republican to an independent and caucusing with the Democrats Jim Jeffords changed the control of the US Senate and the history outside of an election the control of the US Senate has switched parties like that and he did it and no one believed he would do it but remember the details this does it is funny that it was 20 years ago it's like really that's the thing when you have talking to these Middlebury college students to me it's all current events and to them it's ancient history I feel like we're watching Ken Burns Benjamin Franklin documentary and I feel like the people I'm talking about are sort of contemporaries of Benjamin Franklin but the background of Jim Jeffords decision and what happened there was that Jim Jeffords, the Bush administration had just taken office and President Bush wanted to cut taxes by I think it was $1.4 trillion and Jeffords thought that was too much and he said he was going to vote against it and then there became all this effort to try to win his support and he said well what do you need the horse trading started and what he wanted Washington to do what he wanted the White House to do what he wanted the Congress to do was to fully fund its commitment to special education he wasn't asking for any politics he just special education had always been his top priority and I think that when the special education act went into effect the idea was that the federal government would provide 40% of the funding and it never did and Jim Jeffords wanted a commitment that they would do that and in the end the it was dropped from the negotiations as part of the tax cut they didn't put the money in and the White House they just sort of were one, they were new but two their arrogance was such that Jim Jeffords would be like every other senator and he would roll and matter of fact after Jeffords voted no all the press coverage at the time was how the White House was going to seek revenge against Jim Jeffords there are stories in the Hill where leaked comments from White House advisors saying yes, we're going to make it very painful for him and we think what we're going to do is we're going to kill his dairy compact something that he had spent years and years in acting and they said we'll get him and it won't be one thing, we're going to go after him for the next one or two years and they just expected that Jim Jeffords would be like everybody else in Washington and want to be a member of the club and not want to rock the boat and in fact and he decided he would leave the Republican Party and he would become an independent and he would change control of the Senate and right up until the moment he announced that in South Burlington the White House thought he wouldn't go through it he wouldn't go through with it because he wouldn't want to hurt all of his friends who were committee chairs because all the Republicans had waited so long to be committee chairs they were going to lose that and Jim Jeffords just came back to Vermont and said I have to do what is right and to me and he talked about Senator Jim Vermont people that he grew up with his father was Supreme Court Justice General Wing other important leaders well he talked about George Akin and he talked to about Senator Gibson he was very close to the Gibson's and he said to be true to them I can no longer be a member of this Republican Party it was a shock that was felt all across the nation and some of you may remember but he was actually on the cover of both Time and Newsweek in the same week at a time in history when actually being on the cover of Time and Newsweek actually meant something which he doesn't so much today and I was in Washington when he truly became an independent and following him around the Capitol was just remarkable this was a guy who was so all shucks and is only happy if he could be chopping wood at his home in Vermont and people were trying to reach out and touch him and I remember interviewing a man from California on the steps of the Capitol when Jeffords was walking down the stairs and a man from California had said that I'm so glad that somebody had the integrity and the guts to do what they said they would do and that they needed to do it's not just these three men yes absolutely when I first came to Vermont in the 70's my job I worked for Child Welfare and I went around the northern part of the state investigating cases of long-term foster care and then going to court freeing them for adoption so Alice Nick and I freeed about 100 kids in the two years when I first came to Vermont in the 70's I freeed about 100 kids in the two years that the project was going and what strikes out for me is that here in Washington County I went to hear it and I have to remember that child welfare hearings are totally confidential unless you have a role in that hearing you can't come and nothing is talked about in the newspapers so who would be there at this hearing and he was working on behalf of this child and I was so impressed because I knew that this was the beginning of his national campaign and how important publicity would be and here he was sitting in the court acting as an attorney for a foster child I was so impressed with that I voted for many, many times so I just so impressed well he used to before he ran for Congress he was Attorney General of Vermont and yes I was teaching at the University of Texas at the time that Jeffords did his wonderful thing and a colleague of mine just he came out of the blue and he knew I had a place in Vermont and was planning to retire here he came out of the blue and he said your senator up there is wonderful it really had effects all over the country it did and I think the headline on the cover story of Newsweek on the cover I think it said Mr. Jeffords blows up Washington it's not just Jim Jeffords, Howard Dean, Bernie Sanders there is a reason that Jim Douglas was Barack Obama's favorite Republican governor there is a reason that Phil Scott has leadership positions in national governors I think there's a reason by the way that Vermont has had three governors Snelling Dean and Douglas who chaired the National Governors Association for a small state like Vermont to get that very important prestigious role says something about the respect that the governors have for those Vermont governors I think that what we take for granted here in Vermont is something that the nation is hungry for today to succeed in Vermont it requires politicians to be authentic approachable, pragmatic and to exhibit common sense and straight talk and I think that that's why Howard Dean was so successful in his presidential campaign Bernie Sanders has twice been so successful I know they didn't win that's a whole other story as to why that happened which I'm actually happy to talk about in the questions but I think that there is something that we require of our Vermont politicians especially governors so when Jim Douglas ran for governor the Democratic nominee was Doug Racine and the independent candidate was Con Hogan I don't know if you remember that but the three of them had 36 full out gubernatorial forums around the state 36 they were pretty tired of each other by the time they were done but Vermonters demanded it Vermonters require they want to see their governors up close they want to kick the tires they want to have them in a room this size so you can really get a sense of a person you can't win an election in Vermont of being invisible by just running expensive television commercials you have to be out there and about and we've seen that with all of our governors they still we don't have a governor's mansion they live in their homes in the days when there were phone books their phone numbers were listed in the phone numbers their home phone numbers and we expect that we have shows like call the governor on Vermont public television or on Vermont edition or whatever I forget what they call it now the shows where the governors and representatives and senators and we expect them to answer every question and we expect them to know the details of what they're talking about you know for Bob mentioned that I did programs for Vermont public television I did a program called call the governor on Vermont public television for 15 years and Howard Dean loved to one up anyone on that show and show that he knew so he would say all and say I can't get my road and Howard would say where do you live is it halfway up that hill or all the way up that hill or do you go around the corner there's that black mailbox and Jim Douglas is renowned for his memory and remembering everybody and people expect that Jim Douglas just he would see you and he'd say you know talk about the last time he saw you and we want to see that from our leaders and it is what the nation wants to see and I think in the end not to not to belabor this point but I think it's why Joe Biden won the Democratic nomination he seemed like a common person he seemed like someone who understood what was going on and just seemed like a straight talker and I think that's what Vermont politicians have to do here to succeed and it's what's special when we get outside of Vermont and people see our leaders there so I'm yes are you doing questions? yes I'm doing questions so Chris I have a question Phil Scott is still a Republican and we went through everything we did with Mr. Dumpster and we're dealing with pretty intense stuff do you have any speculation why Governor Scott isn't choosing to become independent when the Republican Party stands for nothing? yeah I think when you're Governor it doesn't really matter I think if he were to want to be in Congress he would probably be as an independent and make it clear that he would not caucus with the Republicans just like Jim Jeffords but I think that in Vermont we choose our governors based on personality not party and so it goes back to what I was saying that we love to kick the tires we know our gubernatorial candidates really well I don't think it really matters to anyone that Phil Scott is a Republican because he just acts like Phil Scott and he does what he wants and sometimes he's more this was the same thing with Jim Douglas Jim Douglas was much more conservative than the state as a whole and people were willing to grant some of that because they liked what he was doing and they liked him as a person and we don't focus on the party and and that's why I don't think Phil Scott has any interest in being in Washington but he knows too I think that if he ran for the U.S. Senate or the U.S. House most of Vermont does not want to see the Republicans have the majority and so that would be the defining decision when you mark the ballot box you might love Phil Scott you might say hey I watched him on the road but you know what I am not going to make the Republicans the majority party in the United States Senate so yes I think you really nailed it with the accessibility with the common citizen it started with the building as you were very well spoken I was there probably lobbying for more money to bring a dozen to a group of little children walking around and a young man when the backpack came through the door this was before super security just happened and he came in and looked very distressed and said where is the security and she said oh I think he is out back smoking and I found her one more thing about Howard he was a good friend of mine through the Green Mountain Club and I was so pleased that he chose I will be able to get a canoe well when 9-11 hit it did cause changes even in Vermont but the first change so my office at the time was in the thrush tavern which was the restaurant right across the street from the pavilion and the first immediate response of Governor Dean's administration was Kate O'Connor who was the governor's secretary of civil and military affairs would come out every morning and put traffic cones outside along the pavilion on the side so people would park there if they had a car bomb now do you really think if you're a terrorist car bomb that you're going to say oh look there's a traffic cone there I'm not going to park there and I think that we have that didn't begin a change and then of course the pandemic has changed the way not being able to get in the state house in these last two years and there will be changes coming out of it but one of the greatest things as a reporter covering the state legislature was the accessibility you know our legislators have no offices you know you're standing there looking at them to debate off the floor as the speaker of the house and the president are arguing about something you're just standing there watching because they have no place to go or if you sit in the cafeteria you're bound to see every member of the state legislature and so it's impossible for our legislators to escape when I was covering the legislature the legislative lounge did not exist now there is one room in the legislature that is private for legislators I think the door is always open and you can sort of peer again other questions yes but people are always casking me about our legislators in Washington because there are always so many crowds that can be sent to Washington and when I have the information I'm checking this out is that when I first moved here I was told I had to sign the free man's oath and my back went up and I said well may I read it first and I read it and I thought this is why Vermont has a different kind of legislator because they believe that you vote your country for other events harder or personally than anything I hadn't thought about it and it's as good an explanation or it shows what goes into the thought process of Vermonters so I'll agree with that so other questions, comments, yes when Jeffords switched parties I thought that maybe the Republicans there would say he must be up to something he must be saying something to us to follow and I was really disappointed being so naive then that they actually turned on him it really astounded me it still does actually and Republicans here in the state they sort of tie hard Republicans you know what I mean most of Vermont tends to be independent we don't have party registration as you all know but there were a number of Republicans in Vermont who said he should resign his seat hold a special election and let's see if he still gets elected because he had just run in 2000 and he had run as a Republican so the Republicans were saying you ran under false pretenses and everyone else clearly, Jeffords but most of the analysts were also saying people know exactly who Jim Jeffords is when he first went to Washington he voted against Reagan's budget well it wasn't first it would have been 1981 correct he voted against Clarence Thomas who's the only Republican to vote against Clarence Thomas and you can list 4 or 5 or 10 or 20 things where he stood alone and so him voting against President George Bush's tax cut should have been a Vermont or surprise by that and people knew what they were getting with Jim Jeffords he was he was independent even before he was an independent yes there was a moment in Howard Dean's career when he shouted out loud or something they talked to somebody in the Democratic party and they got rid of him I think because they made such a thing about that could you address that so that was the Iowa caucus and the Dean's screen they called it and it makes good TV to talk about the Dean's screen but the truth is that Howard Dean had lost the presidency before the screen because that day he had come in I think it was 3rd or 4th I think it was 3rd in the Iowa caucus which he was supposed to win and so that he was completely he was done put a fork in him when he lost that caucus so Iowa was the first vote and he had been flying high all through 2003 2004 started the Iowa caucus came he just did a belly flop and so there was no way for him to come back after a loss that devastating in Iowa the screen made a good theater for some of the people and it took about a week for people to sort of figure out and I think it was ABC News that figured out that it wasn't really the screen it was the way the microphone worked and how he couldn't be heard in the hall so he was saying we're going on to North Carolina we're going on and he was holding it like this but by that time he'd lost New Hampshire and what happened there was John Kerry was supposed to win the nomination 2004 Bob knocked Kerry off the pedestal and Howard Dean was the front runner for all of 2003 and he was raising a ton of money and everything and everyone wrote off John Kerry what happened was John Kerry had working for him one of the best political operatives in the world and that person very quietly went into Iowa and worked for two months quietly organizing the caucuses and as you all know a caucus is a strange bird it's not like a primary polling can't tell you anything you only know when the caucus results come in how you did Howard Dean had a lot of support and yet he didn't have a lot of campaign infrastructure his campaign manager at the time Joe Trippie was really good on style and did all of these wonderful things to help Howard raise money but was not organizing at a caucus level in Iowa and so the political press was shocked that John Kerry won Iowa and so that changed the whole dynamic and it might have been different but I'm in second but I think Dick Gephardt came in second I no longer quite remember or John Edwards came in second and Howard was pretty distant third and so it just John Kerry changed the dynamics and once you get past Iowa things happened so fast that then it was Kerry's nomination so it wasn't the screen but when Howard Dean talked about it after the campaign he acknowledged that he just said that our campaign peaked too early in his mind he thought he would do well in New Hampshire and he could be quiet behind the scenes building a structure but what happened was he was flying so high that he had to feed that image and he couldn't be down there doing the real important structural work to build a good campaign any other questions yes I'm not sure because I think each of the campaigns was a little different and I think that in the most recent campaign the progressives got too progressive in being out there and sort of saying here's what we're going to do and we've even seen it since then with the first year of Biden's presidency and some of the the perception became that if you nominate or elect Bernie all of this is going to happen and I think some people and we're talking then establishment corporations that's really scared and went to work to change that keep going are we running out of gas I think so well I think that's probably Bob's way of telling me that he said you've only got six gallons of gas and one you're done and we're probably getting close to being done so we'll take two more questions I have an observation in this story I do think that if people start their political career on the ground floor in Vermont they wear a lot of shoe leather they meet people face to face there's that intimacy that you've talked about I also think that through town meeting and select board meetings people fine tune their pragmatism learn to compromise learn to see another person's point of view and be respectful and that carries forward and I can think of one story I wanted to share among many but I came to Vermont 1970 went to Daughter College and they had a history professor Lee Webb who taught a Vermont history class and at that time undergraduate students and community members were invited to these courses and so we had maybe ten people in this Vermont history class and we had Bernie Sanders and Bill Doyle at the same table and it was early in Bernie's arrival in Vermont but what as an undergraduate I came away with was this wonderful repartee they had talking to each other and talking to Lee Webb and talking to the students that really got me excited about Vermont governance and Vermont politics and I really think the fact that Bill Doyle the Republican and Bernie Sanders the socialist could have these really knowledgeable discussions about the subject matter and being respectful to each other was very impressive and I think the point you were making at the beginning is what I want to just elaborate on for a minute because I think there's a lesson there for us too our citizen legislature is a great asset for the state it's also a liability these days but let's talk first about the asset our citizen legislators have to live with us and among us and so the story or the person people use as the example is Dick Mazza owns Mazza's general store in Colchester and on Saturday, Sunday and Monday he's behind the meat counter and then Tuesday through Friday he's doing that and I don't remember the name but I used to use an example of Cole Hudson Cole Hudson was the janitor up at Linden State College and yet in the legislature he was the chairman of the House Government Operations Committee and to me that was the epitome of a citizen legislature and so the legislators, they can't escape you they have no staff they're in your stores, they're in your communities when I say that it's now I think become a liability in some way it's because legislation at the state government level has become so complicated now and the issues are so complex the idea that we have a four month legislature with basically no staff and I, in my mind not really, not paid enough for some people to make the commitment is a very serious issue because what it does is it gives more power to the lobbyists who have the expertise to show up with the data and no one knows whether that's right or not or the executive so the power tends to be held by the executive and lobbyists and the citizen legislators are sort of playing catch up I think we've seen a little change in dynamic, in the demographics too of who our citizen legislators are now, used to be first of all farmers they're either retired people or they're young people who really want to make us into a career and it just I think we need to at some point bite the bullet and come up with the money and say you know what we need to you know the legislature's afraid to even raise its pay a little or to increase their expenses because that's the easy thing for the press to go after and for people to say yeah those folks in Montpelier are getting rich well you know I remember when I used to give visiting editors and other people tours of the state house you know the first thing they'd say is where are their offices there aren't any and Bob you get the last question you've spent your whole career watching the politicians and being known as a an honest an honest you spent your whole career watching the politicians and you have a great reputation for integrity has anybody leaned on you to slant the news oh you know one of the things about getting old there's your forget so Nancy do we have any you know did we get any cars or any threats you know I I think not but I do think it's really tough to be a reporter in Vermont where you have these relationships you know talking about Jenny when they were taking over Dick Snelling's office Dick Snelling was the first governor that I covered full time and I had great respect for him but I remember once he came to a meeting of the Vermont Press Association and he sort of ramped for a while about how poor the press coverage is and how important it is because the only way that the public knew and this was true at the time it's not true today was what the Burlington Free Press said about Dick Snelling and so it gave me pause to realize the power that was there especially then you know today if you want you can watch a legislative hearing at home you can watch your select board's meeting without ever leaving your couch you can read discussions on front porch forum all day long and you know back in the 70s, 80s and you know into the 90s the public's perception of what was going on at the State House or with politicians came directly through what people read the Burlington Free Press the Rutland Herald and the Times Argus or they saw the CAX at a time when CAX was pretty powerful and you know so I guess I'll end on this down note we've gained a lot by having that direct access down but we've lost a lot in Vermont but not having a vigorous press anymore you know to we still subscribe to the Burlington Free Press of the Times Argus because Nancy reads them each morning to see who's in the obituaries because there's not a lot else there anymore you know the press doesn't exist that is and so we're in this transition now where we're seeing the new models of VT Digger and VPR and you know Seven Days and Stepping Up but we don't we don't have a vigorous press right now and that's a thing to be worrisome about I'm often told by saying I hope you get out in the sunshine and it is always an honor to be here and to have this distinction of being the only family I know some of you were a little disappointed you didn't read it closely you saw that it wasn't Garrett Graff speaking today because I now get that it used to be when Garrett was growing up he heard Chris Graff's your father now everywhere I go you know Garrett Graff is he yes he is by his book today thank you very much