 Y Cyngor Rhwynt Gwbwysigol, Gwbwysigol Llywodraeth, Cyngor Rhwyth gwrthodol, a mae'r Gwbwysigol Llywodraeth yn ei ddweud i'w llai ar y banderfyniadau a gyrsgwrs o'r ddweud. Y cyngor Rhwyth gwrs o'r ddweud i'w llai'r ddweudio'r ddweudio'r ddweudio cwrddodol, fel y cyngor Rhwyth Gwrthodol a'r ddweudio Cymru, yn dod i'w ddeudio'r ddweudio. The group's national coordinator Emmanuel Omwbicol said it was hypocritical of the government of President Mohammed Buhari to continue prosecuting the leader of the Indigenous people of Biafra Nnamdi Canu, while leaving the notorious bandit kingpin Bello Torucik, to continue terrorising residents at the north west zone. Now the HURIWA said the current administration is full of double standards. Well joining us to discuss this, we have Raymond Canebe, he's a legal practitioner, we also have Dr Law Mefo, he's a public policy analyst. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us. Yeah, thank you for having me, Maria. All right, so I'm going to start with you Raymond before we go to Mefo. Looking at the position of the Human Rights Writers Association, they're saying it's a case of double standards and this may not be the first time somebody is pointing accusation fingers at the federal government in terms of prosecution. Let's not forget the Attorney General has been fingered in this report and other judicial officers. Is that really truly the case and why? Well thanks for having me, so I think it's important for us to put this issue in the proper context. Now I read the report from the organisation and they are basically saying that because the bandit or terrorist, Bello Torucik has been allowed to terrorise communities in the north western part of the country and Nabi Canebe has been prosecuted by the federal government, that means there's a case of double standard. Now for me I think that is, it comes to me as a rather sweeping statement and bothersome undue generalisation because the data is not there. The Bello Torucik guy who is being referenced to the best of my knowledge, he's still hiding, he's still running away from the security operatives. Don't forget that this is a man who has killed even security operatives and he's on the run until he's been apprehended by the security agencies and disciplinary actions or prosecution is not being commenced against him in court. That is when the statement can be held to hold water. The fact that a journalist was able to get across to this young man and had an interview with him and then published it, is not a proof that he's been allowed to operate as a pleasist. All over the world it's an acceptable practice for journalists to engage with non-state actors. As a matter of fact there are people who still engage with his warped terrorists and even Muame Shekau before we heard he had been killed. There are terrorists who had, who engage with them from the back end, you understand. So under the rules of international law or international humanitarian law it is accepted, it is an acceptable practice because so you get information from the standpoint of the non-state actors so that the state actors who also process that information are also used to fine-tune their strategy. So it is not a proof per se that there is a cleckis of discrimination in terms of prosecution. I don't agree with that statement. Do you think that if the federal government really is serious about getting told you that they were getting? Well I think the federal government has what it takes to get him. When you look at the size of the federal government, it has all the military apparatus at its disposal, you have the security, you have the military, you have the police and so on and so forth. So in principle one would say that. But when you are dealing with this kind of insecurity situation, you are dealing with guerrilla warfare and unconventional warfare, it's not as simple as it seems. So these guys, they hide in the forest, they don't have a particular place where they are stationed, they have a way of maneuvering and maneuvering. So they keep eloping the security operatives and it is not as if some of his men or lieutenants have not been killed. There have been reports where military operatives shelled their camps, a lot of them were killed. But this young man, for one reason or another, has continued to elope the security agencies. But it doesn't mean that he's been seen and then been allowed to continue what he's doing. As put by the Human Rights Rises Association. Exactly. Mr Maffor, let's talk about this position by the Human Rights Rises group. Now they're also saying that the National Broadcasting Commission had done nothing after this man was interviewed. Just like the Leonard Gentleman in the studio has said that this is international best practice. Journalists always have their way around these things. But I did ask a question as to why it's taking this long to be able to apprehend this guy. But then we also know that this is not a traditional warfare, we're fighting a guerrilla warfare. Why do you think it's taking government so long to deal with this issue? Well, the war on terror and insurgency is always like this because it's an asymmetric warfare. It's a non-positional warfare and you rightly described it as a guerrilla warfare. In a guerrilla warfare, it takes quite a lot because the enemies are not well positioned where you can take them out or confront them positionally. Once a war is not positional, it's difficult to really predict the form and the proper response that will give you the desired result. I read the statement issued by Uriwa, signed by the National Coordinator on Redemption, Manuel Oubico. I understand this concern that there appears to be reluctance on the part of the federal government to deal with the tourgy factor by taking him out. I really don't see how federal government would want to preserve their tourgy. There is no point, there is no need and there is no evidence that it has crossed their path properly and they let him off the hook. I have no idea. I have followed the reports here and there and what we have seen has not shown any evidence to collaborate the position of Uriwa that the federal government is playing double standards with the case of tourgy. For that sake, I am also not quite satisfied with the way the federal government has gone about its overall engagement with the terror groups in the country. If you take, for instance, the way they have responded to the issue of dealing with the killer headsmen, you will see some differential and the indifference treatment in that direction. I am not aware of any serious prosecution, I am not aware of any serious attacks and yet these people are known to have killed and maimed. Such a differential treatment is what Uriwa appears to be pointed to, but I don't think it applies to the case of tourgy personally. I am also not happy with the way they have gone about the prosecution of Naam-Dekana. My concern is the way Ammanam was brought back to the country. He was extraordinarily renditioned from Kenya to Nigeria. For me, that is a criminal process and if indeed the federal government wants justice for Ammanam-Dekana, the federal government will then naturally go for its extradition, as the American government is doing with them the case of al-Bakirari at the moment. So what stopped the Nigerian government from applying to the Kenyan authorities for Naam-Dekana to be properly extradited from Kenya to complete his criminal trial in Nigeria? That was not done. He was simply kidnapped and stated kidnapped of a citizen from another country. But the federal government does have an excuse of saying that this man had two shorties, if not three. He skipped that particular arrangement that he had with these shorties. I remember when the courts kept asking for those shorties to produce Naam-Dekana, he was not supposed to in any way leave the country and he did. I'm not in any way sitting here as a legal person to justify what the government did, but that's the excuse the government is giving. He jumped bail, right? Yes, he did jump bail. All you're trying to put across is that Naam-Dekana jumped bail. That's what you're trying to say. But I don't know, as a journalist, I'm aware that you should be aware that Operation Python Dance invaded his house and people died there. If he was available, when the invasion happened, that got a number of people killed within the father's compound, himself could have been a victim. So, even if the federal government wanted him back to the court when he violated the conditions of his bail, what to do was very simple. They would have just revoked the bail and revoking it would mean that he could have been arrested rather than Operation Python Dance. So, if you look at it from that perspective, you will see that the federal government itself is not blameless in his so-called jumping of bail, because the federal government had other things had official processes through which to bring it back to the courts. They didn't do that. Instead, they launched military oppression, which it took some people out in his father's house, where he was. So, the question is, if he didn't run, couldn't he have been one of those that were killed? That's the question. So, for me, whether or not he jumped a bail is arguable, given the fact that he was actually a first out and made to flee for his own life. It's only a tree that would hear that it would be killed and there still stays or moved. So, and that said again, the other point I'm trying to make is that kidnapping him in Kenya cannot be justified even if he jumped bail. If he jumped bail and tracked him down to Kenya, what he would do as a suffering state is to apply for his extradition. There is no rule that says that because he jumped bail he could be kidnapped. He don't do that. Nations don't go into such actions. It's a robbery. It's not done. Nigeria is a big country and should live by example. He said extraordinary rendition from Kenya back to Nigeria to stand trial for me is a travesty of justice and does not in any way really can we get a fair trial in the end as well as I am concerned because the desperation is too much. I believe he should have been extradited. I don't believe he will get trial in the end. All right. Let me come back to you, Raymond. He's making an interesting case and this is some of the issues that most of these journalists and other people who are critics of the government make. They point to what happened to the Europe and non-state actor Iboho, what happened in his residence and of course what happened with the oppression python dance and how the federal government went about it. Now, let's look at it. These two men who have been called enemy of the states as opposed to those who are killing in the northeast, those who are still killing all the way down south into the middle belt, they have not necessarily shed blood nor have they taken up arms to kill Nigerians. So what is exactly the yardstick that government is using to turn these people as terrorists? For Sunday Iboho he was calling on a protest and asking for a secession and by any rule according to the human rights of every person across nations you have a right to ask for independence. It's an ask. Maybe government was afraid that it was a movement but I'm looking at all of these men. Let's place all of them on the table side by side with the people that we call terrorists, the people who are indeed terrorists and that are terrorising us as we speak. Are they getting a fair trial? Okay, well I'm taking very much. That's quite a loaded one. Now what constitutes terrorism under the Terrorism Prevention Act 2015 has is wide in terms of its construction. So whereas the terrorist so-called as we like to like the Boko Haram members, the bandits, these are people who have clearly taken up arms against the States. So for them it is not difficult to say that they are actual terrorists. But in the case of the Boko Haram guys they have actually declared a war against the Federal Republic of Nigeria so they are terrorists. So it is easy to disentangle their own case. Now in the case of Sunday Iboho and Namdikami, for Sunday Iboho his campaigns started off as an ethnic nationalism campaign calling for the declaration of a European nation. Now Nigeria is a sovereign state and the constitution says that Nigeria is one indivisible and indisolible entity under God. Now the very moment any group under whatever guise within a sovereign state begins to take part in activities that appears to or that has potential of challenging the territorial or the sovereignty of the state. At that point they constitute a threat to the continuous existence of Nigeria as one indivisible and indisolible nation. So even if they have not taken up arms and perhaps burning governmental institutions or killing members of the public, that intent puts them within the realm of a threat to the state. And to that extent government has a higher responsibility to protect the state and other members of the society. We don't have time. Let me quickly tell you why I'm asking this because there's room for radicalisation when government goes ahead to deal with these issues if it's not done properly. Exactly. So who's to say and I know you don't work for the government but my guys are saying that time is up, who's to say that the way and manner in which these non-state actors are being dealt with will not radicalise more people and give them more sympathisers or followers. I mean we're seeing what's happening in the southeast now. So could government have gone about this differently? I quite agree. It's a very delicate situation to handle because these are people whose gospel appeared to a whole lot of followers when you go back to the corners of the country. So and this is the point where government perhaps has to be more delicate and in handling the situation so that they don't end up making these guys matters as it were and heroes because when you go to the east where I come from, in Nambi Canw is seen as a folk hero. People are willing to die for him. So that's the point where government has to be careful so that you try to balance both competing interests so you don't end up creating making a very and already bad situation complicated. Well unfortunately time is up. I want to say thank you. Raymond Canaway is a legal practitioner and Dr Law Meffo is a public policy analyst. Thank you so much gentlemen for being part of the conversation. Thank you for having me. Thank you. All right. Well thank you all for staying with us as we round off the show today. We're going to be talking with Nigerians who are expressing their thoughts as regards the APC crisis. I am Mary Anna Cung. I'll see you tomorrow when plus politics returns. Just one of those things before the APC conversion. Maybe if they need to postpone it, fine they can postpone it but if there is no much need at all let them go ahead and do the conversion so that they can able to have one agreement with each other within the parties so that so by then the country and the election can be very fair and fair election. Thank you. I say they should put their house in order so as not to avoid having a round the convention whether consensus or whatever they should put their house in order. It's a ruling party. They cannot take us to 23 in a round the manner that will be catastrophic for the party. I think it's better for them to solve their leadership crisis because if they go on without solving it they may happen that they have to come back and start doing the convention again. First of all we have to know that the English vitamins and a house that is united can withstand any form of a position that it faces. So I think the best thing for them is for them to put your house in order first. Let everybody have a common goal. Let everybody have a common interest and you can come out and now want to do whatever you want to do because when there's disjunuity right now or when the house is divided right now even if you hold your convention there's a possibility that any resolution that is passed or any resolution they come to an end to or maybe don't agree to will not be what is united or will not be a common interest of everybody since they have not settled their rift yet. So the best thing for them to settle their rift put your house in order first and when they are done with that then they could go on with their convention and from there on maybe things will now work out fine for them.