 The People's Democratic Party's Board of Trustees has opposed moves to sack the Uche Secondness-led working committee and replace it with an Interim Ketika committee. It was gathered that at a meeting which started at 11 a.m. and presided over by the board chairman Senator Walid Gibrin, the members insisted that the national chairman Uche Secondness should be allowed to complete his tenor, which would soon end. It was also learned that the party leaders faulted what they termed as uncomplementary remarks by its members. It had been reported that the national chairman was battling to retain his position as weakest, bareheaded moves to ensure his removal before the party's National Executive Council meeting and the National Convention. Well, joining us to discuss this is political analyst Bioto Shoomi and Baba Shala Adegui. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you very much for inviting us. I'm guessing this has to be the most discussed conversation. I mean the PDP and its in-fighting and all of the drama that's been happening and that we can say the same for the opposition also, I mean for the APC, but today we're talking about the PDP. Let's start by looking at the drama that ensued over the past few days and the people who moved from the party, the members of the BOT who moved to the APC. In fact, they first resigned and then moved to the APC. One person has moved to the APC, but I want to start with you, Bioto, what do you make of this drama? A lot of people have, you know, posited that this is, you know, body movements as everybody's making preparations for 2023, but I'm sure that you think it's different. Well, there are different factors responsible for people moving at different points in time. First, you have those who felt they've lost out of the political economy that they always lived on. Out of government for over two years, they decided to move to the ruling party to still have some income and you have the second category of people. These are people who have problems or who think they are politically exposed, you know, to the EFCC. And therefore, the best way is to join the ruling party just with the throne and your sins will be forgiven, you know. And you have this very rare situation, which is the current resignation and direct resignation of the deputies of PDP. What people are looking at is just the issue of the Miki. I don't believe it's actually Miki alone in that case. What's happened is they may have dissolved some of the problems. Each of those deputies are loyal to different people within the political party, you know, which are, there are those of them loyal to possible past term secretary of the party and, you know, past national officials. So they are the ones at work, you know, justing and trying to situate themselves in a way that they will be able to influence the outcome of the convention, which is to elect a chairman that will supervise the election of the national convention that will produce the presidential candidate. So this game is not just about Miki. Miki, on his own part, is quite very articulate, very forceful and coming out strongly, you know, against them, which is second or is not the only one in the game. You know, there are other actors in that game who, one way or the other, decided to breach the rules and call their voice, you know, to again resume their post as deputy officers of the party. So these are these, the unforeseen, on the unseen hand plus the seen hand, Miki is the same hand and that is what is going on. Unfortunately, they are not likely going to have their way because which is second or has barely four months to go from office. It's the wrong time to move to move them. But politically speaking, it's the right time because the whole idea is to set up a convention committee, you know, that will see to the election of new chairman. Obviously, which is second or may would want to return as a national chair. So what they may have reached behind the same sentiment, but which is second or not, you know, going for another time, just buying at that convention and allowing new person to be the chairman. No one knows until when it all is out clearly. Let me come to you, Baba Shala. It's been reported that second is his rivals, reasoned that the national chairman would install his loyalists, you know, as members of the convention committee and this would pave way for his re-election. The PDP on the other hand has always made a big show of transparency during the elections over the years. And is this possible that the issue is a result of lack of transparency or internal democracy? Just like the other show me has said, could it be much more than the hand of Esau in this particular matter? Well, there is nothing wrong in which second or important is loyalists. If the national chairman has the game and he knows how to play his game very well, definitely it can get his loyalists to the national convention and get himself re-elected. Competing me, sometimes I have myself, the PDP is actually still existing in Nigeria because it's like PDP is failing as an opposition just like the way the party failed when the government, in charge of the government of Nigeria. Because sometimes I have myself, if PDP is actually seeing what is happening and listening to the years of the masses. So for me, second or administrative has not been actually performing the way an opposition party should be performing. I have to be sincere with you, I am not a member of PDP, I am not a member of APC. I am saying this as a neutral man that is looking at it from an objective way. From the performer's basis, as we said, the national chairman has failed and the whole executive, I mean the national executive of that party, needs to be reshuffled. I don't understand, what exactly do you expect the PDP to do? Because again, this is not the UK where you have a shadow minister, a shadow this or a shadow government, you don't have that. You just play plain opposition politics. And I'm not in any way trying to speak for the PDP, but let me just play the devil's advocate. They've been speaking up a lot about the insecurity in the country and a couple of other things. But what exactly do you think the PDP is not doing that makes you feel that they have failed? When the PDP was in opposition, we all knew the game APC played and we all knew there was an opposition in assistance before 2015. But immediately after 2015, when the PDP admitted or allowed APC to come into them but disintegrated the party and arrested some of their neighbors and some of their neighbors crossing into the APC, PDP went down. The last time I can talk about PDP being in a position that was when Olysa Mechu was the spokesman for the political party. Immediately after I was arrested, it was like PDP just went silent. They are not acting. They are just there. Let us see the opportunity we are looking for. Let us grab the party. They don't really understand what position being an opposition is. And that is what is killing the PDP. And I'm very sure it's because of 2023 now at the weekend and the zoocappals. And I'm looking for the opportunity to put aside this administrative, then bring in a new government, as in a new set of democracies that we want to party. So that in 2020, please, they will not shortfall on what they have already, what they have already shortfalling on the game. So although the weekend and the other group, they are not going to eat, they are not going to eat the way they should go to eat. Definitely, I think which second was elected a few years ago before the 2019 election, but then with their conversion. And according to their politics, according to their party constitution, used to be the national shaman for four years. The question is, and any of them followed the process laid down by their PDP constitution in the removal of any executive member? Well, that's a great question. I wish that they were here to answer it, but let me come back to you, show me. There have been, I want to quote something that happened in 2017 ahead of the PDP national convention. Governor Wike, the same Governor Wike that has been fingered to be against Uche Secundus, who is also his kinsman, actually had to say that he expressed absolute confidence in the candidature of Uche Secundus. How did that change in the space of less than four years? I mean, and the fact that he seems to be the one who everybody's pointing to as one who wants to remove Uche Secundus. And it's a two-pronged question. Do you think that Governor Wike has an interest in that position personally, or whoever he decides to put there might just help him in whatever ambition he has going forward? Yeah, no doubt the chairman of any political party is a very powerful man. The chairman can influence a lot of things. He has a major role to play, not only in appointing those who would be who conduct elections and influence the process. He is also so important that he could make or ma the ambition of any politician if it chooses not to be neutral in the game. Wike has been rumored for some time now to have a vice-presidential ambition. Obviously, we've had different tickets of Wike, Tamboal at the point we had about Wike, Matikou, we once had about different insinuations about Wike's ambition. But the ambition has always been, as rumored, only at the level of vice-presidential. But he's probably one of the most powerful people in PDP today. If you take it, Wike is next. So he has a call out to pursue his own interest, depending on who he asses to be a stumbling block. In the case of Secondus, Secondus was a very clear line, even though in terms of seniority, which is Secondus was his senior in politics. But they were both allies until when Wike's direction, his trajectory on 2023 came into play. And Wike, that we all know, was part with anybody the moment his interest is at stake. So he's a man very determined, very committed to his own cause, and doesn't mind stepping on anybody's toes to achieve his own goal. And that is Wike. Some people say his house is very, very determined. So the idea that Wike actually moved against Secondus should not surprise anyone. He will move against any ally if his own interest is at stake. At least that's the impression which many political conducts have about Wike. And there's nothing wrong with that, because it's all about his own personal interest. Most of the politicians in Nigeria today are there because of their interest, not really because of the people. It's always a mouth-saving thing to say that we want to serve the electorate. They're just mere slogans. We don't see that in reality, in practice, when they're political power. So quite often it has always been very self-serving, self-seeking moves within all the political parties, including the APC. So what I see happening clearly is that the problem must have reached the troops to encourage Wike to abandon the cause of removing Secondus and Wike and his allies. And then allow Secondus to fade away at the next election and pay for a new chairman to a man. It would be difficult for PDP with this crisis not to include again if Secondus is allowed to continue at the next election, because at the next time convention, because it will only cause the media crisis within the party. But looking at the fact that in the party, you have three strongmen, the ones that we know, the obvious three strongmen, and they all differently have interest. And these interests might span even through Presidency and all of that. And out of the three strongmen, two have run for Presidency. At least one has run for it maybe three times and the other ones. Again, we see Bukalasaraki trying to reunite the party. We see Attiku reconciling with Wike trying to form a formidable front. But it's still not stopping the movement from the PDP to the APC. Now the PDP had previously said that the APC would probably disintegrate before 2023, but we're seeing the same thing happen for the PDP. They're collapsing like a house of cards, faster than their opponents, even though those people also have their own internal party crisis as to it's also leadership related. And these are the two main political parties in Nigeria. I'm going somewhere. The former INEC boss had come out saying that these two political parties have taken Nigerians for granted for so long and that they are disintegrating and that Nigerians should be looking elsewhere. And so for the PDP, is there any survival of any sorts in the radar for them come 2023? With all that's been happening, the governors have left, members of the National Assembly have left and now board of trustee members. What is left of the PDP? Well, the PDP made a fundamental mistake. After the last election, it was a big miscalculation on their part. What they should have done was to reprint, it went from PDP. Don't forget that the party was badly managed. People saw it as a party of looters. One way or the other, APC, Pupanganda machine was able to make a major change on their political fortune. They lost power. What one would have expected is for PDP to brand itself, transform itself and abandon the MPD. There's a clear example which is nobody would be able to point to the fact that they were in power and they were so corrupt. Don't forget members of the same PDP have moved to APC, the same sort of PDP they are now in APC. So if they are branded, it will have been difficult for people to point to them and tarnish their image, the way it's been done currently. But that now is standing that L. It is not only the PDP, APC, both parties are likely going to implode. Currently, we see more move back from PDP to APC. But what would happen after the APC convention and primary elections? No one knows. Once the key political actors within the APC participate in that time, primaries, one person would win at the end of the day. So what would happen? People are projecting that APC is likely going to implode. In fact, APC is in a more difficult situation compared to PDP. Don't forget the surface governments have made a clear demand that the next leadership should come from southwest. They're not saying no, we're still going to continue in power. So we are faced with a very difficult situation. Maybe at the end of the day, the former INEC boss may be right, that probably we need to look elsewhere for a third party. So out of what is going on, a PDP may not survive after the convention. So also APC may not survive. We are likely going to see people moving from both political parties and probably join our team up with the new political party to challenge, to present a thought force to PDP and APC. That is a likely trajectory that I can see on this point. Baba Shala, this means that obviously we're going to have another case of the APC, how the APC came about. We remember that it was a group of political parties coming together to form the APC. Now, the plan that they had in mind, we do not know if it went beyond just on sitting, the sitting presidents at the time. Now, he's also positing that that might happen, and people might have to look elsewhere. But we also see that even the other political parties that are not as big as the PDP or the APC are facing the same internal crisis. Look at APCA. It's very difficult for a party like APCA who just has, it's become a one state party to even get its acts together. So what's stopping these other politicians who might be aggrieved at the end of the day after the convention of all the big parties? What stops them from going into those small parties and repeating the same cycle all over again? Okay, nobody can actually predict accurately what will happen in APC after their national convention. But we can project that definitely there will be crisis and a lot of people will want to move out of the political party to go to a PDP. A strong and a very serious politician in either APC or PDP will not want to go to any of the political parties, not the small political parties. Why? Because they will look at the chances they have in some political parties. If the chances are not there for them, they'd rather be where they have or move to another strong political party than an unknown or a small political party. So for me, for me in after 2022 because I'm very sure the convention will start next year in respect of the each political party convention that are in respect of their national executive because it is the national executive that actually determine the next step that political party will take. If the national executive as the national chairman has not enough, I can tell you they will not want to give the president presidential ticket to not enough. So they will not go to the settlement and give the presidential ticket. So as the result of that, most politicians who are high or looking forward, hello? Hello? Go ahead, we can hear you. Okay, most politicians who are high or looking forward to the particular position either in the national executive or in the political party or for election purpose. They will now look after great crises in FPC in order to either desk the image of FPC by political party to PDP. Now it's not left for PDP to determine if they are strong enough to absorb them. What do I mean by being strong enough? Will PDP be able to compromise is so structural for the purpose of those that are becoming PDP. For anyone who is going to Abga, we only know Abga in Anahambra state. I don't know Abga is in Anahambra state apart from Anahambra state. We only know Abga when we go to YPP. Now, anyone that go to either of them will be ready to spend more in those particular parties for such person to be relevant. So, let's wait for 2022 for us to see the national convention and determine what will happen next. Okay, well what happens in 2023 remains to be seen. Be able to show me and Baba Shalaadib we are political analysts. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Thanks for coming. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now to go over the big stories of plus politics for the week. And when we return, I will give you my take. As a nation, we ought to work on our entire, the fabric of what we do. Change is not just about the words. It's about what we do. And change is always a painful process. Even within the all-progressive Congress, we have to battle and struggle for change. We cannot just say that because we're a party committed to change, therefore everything will change automatically. But why promise something that you do not have? You obviously cannot give what you do not have. You're battling for change, but then you promise to give change. So why promise what you do not have? Again, when you keep talking, I mean, I totally agree with the fact that yes, we as a society need to work to change the course of things. But whatever happened to leading by examples, we're the ones who are following, we're the lead. If the people who are leading us are making promises, they should be at least able to keep some of those promises so that we can at least have some level of trust. But there seems to be none of that in play. No, you're not being factual. And you're also not being fair. First of all, the all-progressive Congress has done a lot as a government to try to bring change to the political process in this country. There's no denying that. The whole issue of introducing direct primaries as an option to ensure fairness and all that is something that this party has championed. But what I'm saying is that the all-progressive Congress is a political party. Magnus Abbey is an individual. So if the party says something and Magnus Abbey gets up to go and sabotage what the party has set out to do or do something different, these are individual actors across the country. Let's assess the APC right now because we just finished talking about the PDP and the internal crisis that they're facing. Even at that, even at the fact that the APC is having internal crisis, we still see people leaving the PDP to the APC. And I have asked this question over and over again. Will the APC be able to survive 2023? Because many pundits have said the foundation of the APC was not built on solid ground. Where do you stand on this? Okay, so I think that what is happening now, the kernel of this issue is in this recent judgment, this recent Supreme Court judgment, the Supreme Court judgment that you said just very narrowly on technicality to the to the hands of the current on the stick of no. And then all of a sudden the foundation doesn't look so solid, you know, coming from where political actors in the APC are looking at it. Now, why are the PDP people and look, it's a game of politics, pure politics. Previously before that particular court judgment, you have seen that some of the PDP, you have PDP governor who has become and some PDP members who have also become but what has happened with this judgment now is that all of a sudden with the same sort of three, right, narrow split split in between that judgment in favor and the issue that brings to bear the legality of the current technicality as against having a democratic list, a democratic stop job in place to have is having a power to appoint or sorry to nominate governorships or across board. What it has done is that it has given them a share that if they go ahead with the world Congress and continue to go ahead with the major elections, I mean, anybody can come out and take them to court. The fact that we have insecurity and people are dying every day, the numbers have become just, you know, you just hear that 10 hundred are dead and then you say, oh, okay. So should we be, should we get this in the idea of Twitter ever coming back? Should we also close our eyes to the fact that this is one of the many things that government has done without legal backing? For me, everything is symbolic, you see. So it's all about symbolism. What does a sudden action represent? And it's quite easy to say that there are bigger issues. And I think that's always been the problem with Nigeria. Every time that there is something to consider, we always say, oh, there's a bigger issue. There's something else to deal with. This is not as big as then we compare to the issues. And we forget that everything is a spiral and a reflection of the very next action you're taking. Let's look at symbolism, for instance, banning Twitter is space where people could speak freely and criticize government and the president is akin to shutting down a newspaper because it has so many opinion pages and half of the opinion pages don't make you look good. That's the initial. Thank you for watching. Have a good evening. It's been Plus Politics, I am Marianna Cohn.