 Hi, I'm Dazza Greenwood at the Boston MIT node of the computational law and blockchain festival and and facilitator of this Unconference discussion session on developing principles for sovereign legal identity for individuals and I want to introduce the my co-facilitator from the Washington DC node Elizabeth Reneiris who is currently on mute Dazza Thanks for having me Elizabeth Reneiris as you said I am a principal at a law and consulting firm Here in the DC area and also Global Policy Council to a blockchain-based digital identity company called Evernon awesome, and Evernon is Affiliated with the sovereign foundation. I think who actually has some principles which are among the things we'll be talking about, right? Yes, that's right. So the sovereign foundation is working on something known as the sovereign ledger to implement One version of self sovereign identity so we can definitely get into that Great. And so I'm doing us here in Boston. Maybe just do a quick round of who's in the discussion Who are you? Christian Smith from Stranger Labs Stranger Labs, which is into Identity and stuff privacy right on track and we your name And And Frequenter, I would say of law dot MIT dot edu things and always welcome here and our friend and colleague So if you kind of wrench your head this way a little bit and look that way, that's what he looks like And and our cherished and his sponsor and friend from Thompson Reuters labs I Had the TR lab Seven data science labs for a blue fur toxin motors Yeah, could you actually just lean in for one second? That's no we got eyes on Brian great And so that that's us here and who we joined by online I See Tom some people Some participants are undisclosed And We're joined by some people that are associated with identity Ecosystem steering committee, which I'm also associated with we're not representing that but it's a great group that everyone should learn about it has some principles that we'll talk about and and a loss As well who who has a team for the sovereign legal identity challenge as part of the festival well, what why don't I just Do a screen share on on some of the principles that Elizabeth and I Surfaced and then I think maybe Elizabeth after I just identified some of these maybe you could share some of your thoughts On the on the principles that you've been developing so I'm good Okay Silences is a cent was on mute. Yeah, that's good. Okay. Thanks. So I don't think can you see this on the screen? Okay, great. So first one is sovereign. These are from a sovereign trust framework principles, which is in section two Gonna link to it One of them is independence and self sovereignty and I won't read the paragraph next to each one But this one's worth reading because it sets its own This principle is an identity owner just defined Shall have the right to completely and permanently own and control And this is interesting one or more sovereign identities without the need to rely on any External administrative authority and without the fear that a sovereign identity will ever be taken away So those this is a pretty common sentiment I've noticed among folks to talk about this notion of sovereign identity that it's something It's owned and controlled by the the person identified as opposed to maybe Just to draw it out a little better to get contextualize it when you go to work you get When you log in with Facebook that's kind of controlled by Facebook even though it's your username its username within Facebook's domain You kind of go to a government entity Maybe you want to check your personal earnings and benefits statement as you should with a secure social security administration That SSN and your login for social security administration is Administrered by that agency and they could take it away. They might want to change their system or something Maybe they you know, I bet doing that on the service so a second one is Skip across a few of the top ones If I could jump in quickly Please I just want to note that Some of these principles relate to the technology the technology solution so the ledger and the network itself rather than sort of Self-sovereign identity in respect of the individual So just just to be clear that yeah, I think it makes sense to jump to some of the others Yeah, let's jump to some of the others A couple that I'll just on the way down on 2.6 is interoperability Privacy by design is 2.8 portability Open by default and identity for all and collective best interest so here's another one that I dug out that I've been as I remembered it came from IDQ Which was a nonprofit associated with the human dynamics lab in the media lab some years a few years back They felt one principle on Self-sovereign identity and control of personal data was that individuals and groups should have control of their digital Personal identities and personal data. So from their perspective, they really felt it was critical to Talk about individual identity and personal data in the same principle Interesting transparent enforcement and effective, but lightweight governance was a big thing with IDQ Trust and privacy and open-source collaboration The I referenced earlier the end-stick guiding principles that stands for a national strategy for trusted identities in cyberspace Pretty cool that a government that a government at that time use the word cyberspace as part of an official strategy of the United States The first principle is identity solutions will be privacy-enhancing and voluntary The second one is identity solutions will be secure and resilient The third is identity solutions will be interoperable So there's interoperable again and the for it is identity solutions will be cost-effective and easy to use Next principles very thoughtful I encourage you to read and stick we've linked to it there to To kind of get the whole context on that and then also to look at the what's called IDF identity Ecosystem framework on which goes through maybe other people in the call can or more up to date enough But you can talk about if it goes through how you can maybe have products or services certified against those principles and Those implementations rich for Alan self sovereign identity principles I feel probably are the most popular nowadays and He talks about existence So that you can use this digital identity To have an independent existence control again access Users must have access to their own data transparency assistance Your time long live portability. There's portability again Interoperability consent users must agree to the use of their identities. That's sounding like the voluntary list there I'm minimum minimalization Disclosure of claims must be minimized And protection the rights of users must be protected Also linked to Jericho forum and and there's a few others as well No, there's like a smattering there. Let's call it up. Um, you know, sort of some of the best of identity user controlled or user owned identity principles that have been circulating around it's hardly a complete list and One of the things I was hoping we could do I see Mary's on the line and others that are Bev and others who are really been tracking the space If there's other principles out there that are that would be good to add to the list for people to look at and consider Be great to identify those Welcome and and also Come on in and also new ideas to so maybe this is a good time to To bat them all back to you Elizabeth and I think that you had some some fresh ideas on some principles You're on mute Yeah, sure. Um, so one of the things that I've been thinking about is Borrowing sort of a model from property law And as many of us may remember from law school or 1L property law, you know, you learn about the bundle of rights And the various, you know sticks that make up that bundle And there are five key Sticks in the bundle and they are the right to possess The right to control the right to exclude the right to enjoyment and the right of disposition or to dispose of the property so It's interesting to think about in the identity context And actually if you look at sort of the other principles In the in a shared doc that you've sort of inputted there many of them are actually Have meta principles that are behind them or govern them or link some of the specifically enumerated principles here and one thing I would like to do and haven't gotten to it is try and categorize those more Specific principles into these sort of meta principles based on the property model And I think it's also interesting That a lot of the self-sovereign identity movement comes out of a Frustration and exhaustion with the commercialization of our data or personal data Which has been treated largely as the property of other, you know third parties Who are not the subject of that data? So this is just something that I've been working on and this seems like a really good forum for it I'm going to open to hearing other thoughts on this idea Okay Was that Christian Okay, I was channeling what I match and Christians thinking Well, I'll extrapolate though also why I why I also love it myself is because I think property is one of the areas of a fundamental customary area of law that's under Papped with respect to the intangible assets and digital information generally and among other things or digital identities are It's digital information and what we there's other rights that we have those human rights rights that come from privacy law Intellectual property and so forth is also just fundamental personal property and the I think the bundle of rights They call it bundle of sticks or whatever that you've just mentioned Have a lot of application and we can definitely apply that and and and extend from those traditional concepts to Principles that we ought to be thinking about for our individual identity that last one of the things you said the right Did you call it? Was it extinguish? Or the right to dispose of is really interesting if you think about an identity contact Kind of mimics some of what the GDPR is trying to do with the right to be forgotten, of course but there are other efforts around the world that that are kind of That allude to this notion Just so and so that I mean one of the ways I mean there's of all the different rights that go to Property that the right to draw your put an end to it is one is one that I associate as much More than most others with how you can tell who's the owner of something make many people have rights to access or to use in some way or some of the benefits or obligations or For property, but the right to destroy is tightly associated with with an ultimate owner, though I think it's an important one Hey, Mary, I see contributing in the text Be willing to speak a few words Or can I read what you're saying so I had one question about Dispose of one of the problems that we address actually in real world is digital death. I Would suspect that we need to cover that People do die Yeah, so if I could jump in I that's a great point and actually this is becoming a big issue with you know Social media accounts and who owns the social media account postpartum excuse me post Postermously and what what can be done with it and are you know, what are the rights? And I think it's a really important point a really interesting question And you know it also goes to the the tension between digital identity and you know sort of real world or offline identity So yeah, I that's something I'd love to work in into this framework as well Yeah, you know on that one we used to have in um II internet identity workshop you have the so-called digital death group which possibly the worst named group ever but we were trying to look at what happens, you know in Improving and and just that with an executor or and in other situations when when people, you know The thing about people with identity is they're born and they die And so, you know, it's not wonderful to think about it, but it's part of the Life cycle literally and you know in if you start Poking around the law there one of the laws that's interesting to look at is the so-called right of publicity comes up very much in in terms of the rights to you image and the rights to the persona for people that can be packaged and and and dealt with in a there's methods and mechanisms and rights and obligations that are expected in different roles Long after the death of persons has been something largely for celebrities in the past But if you read the statutes like the first ones in California and the other ones in the United States They're not limited to celebrities Any person could could be eligible for these rights of publicity and It's a big we have the what is it? Um, I can't remember the name but now there's a new uniform law that deals with another aspect of this It's a I do sherry access something and it gets to Having an orderly process for for people to Access your online accounts After death so we can have an orderly transition of the disposition of your assets It's a good one Well, there's another part of death If in the United States if you have more than I think five million dollars in assets It's up to the federal government to decide when you die. That is when you cease having liabilities Because of the inheritance laws Um, Mary, can I um? Do you mind if we kind of take some I speak some of the comments are writing in the chat. I don't think they're Can you hear me? Yep. You're coming through. Okay. I couldn't get the mute off for a little while. Sorry about that So I'm just madly typing in the Stone I actually have done but I would say it was several years ago a bunch of comparison of the the notions around property rights versus copyright law and the comparison that you can do around Personal data and identity control by the individual and I you know, I guess I would say because of the Myriad of different examples that you just brought up. It would be really interesting to maybe make another rule doc I don't know but Make a list of all the kinds of property rights and ownership rules and sort of what those contours are in different Jurisdictions and remains and compare them to copyright and licensing the copyright is not an absolute right So just as a root for fresher the constitution calls out the notion of fear use, right? And so There's a couple ways where I think personal data control and identity control is comparable I don't own my identity a hundred percent. I don't own the absolute rights worldwide to the name Mary Potter. There are many other Mary Potter's in the world and but I do own You know, if you if you paint the big picture of all of my personal data Aggregated together that would pretty much pinpoint me and only me There's a way where I should have more rights to that than say anybody else But just just my name or just you know, even an address people move someone else moves into my house I don't own that address. You know, it's it's pliable In other words, and so I think the notion of having a spectrum of you know Licensing In terms of absolute to Too partial is is really interesting And so it would be it would be good to compare the contours of the law Around those things and see if you know if my my assessment That copyright was a better match than property rights is still true um So that's one question that I have and then the other thing is um, you know, I I think it would be interesting to Look at a spectrum of personal data because personal data can relate back to what I'm going to write My my zip code and just the month and day of my birthday And pretty much pinpoint me about 93 of the time right in in the world And that's or in the u.s. And the western world where we have zip codes and that sort of thing Where we have a more consistent mailing system And so the problem is is that it's not just my name or my exact Person I can be derived right and so it also Um, there's also this interesting problem around, you know, what is I what is You know, what is the data that gets you to an identity and how much of that? You know, do I own my zip code? No lots of other people are in it But maybe I own my zip code plus The month and day of my birthday because it derives me Right and so it's It's complicated and so I would just I would just say, you know, we should really look into the notion of copyright as a as a better analog As the intellectual property it's a better analog. Yeah How would um for intellectual property or property um personal property Of the type that elizabeth was saying how might these legal concepts relate to You know the um the capability of having an account uh an account ownership and management where Almost think of it more as um as a functional capability that Enables certain access and authorizations things that you do with your identity as it were right and More of an analog to property rights the account is a thing even if it's a digital That's kind of a thing. It's still something We metaphorically hold Right and and so Probably apply more Figure out which pieces apply Or are in analog to which pieces of law Around these different pieces there's some sort of music in the background I feel like I'm in the id disco um You know the whoever's calling from the disco tech if you could make a huge There we go. Okay, so those are just my thoughts Michael. I you know my two cents and We've got to be a little careful Mary some of those rights that you're talking about don't belong to you so In general the right to for example enter a federal building isn't Your property even though it's a right that you may have associated with you from time to time I agree with you. I mean that what i'm suggesting is that we actually map it and figure out where Where these things apply write it down and kind of figure it out versus i'm not asserting any particular right Okay, so we're missing we're actually missing three of the most important most expensive topics Which everybody seems to leave out because they Don't want to talk about the hard problems, but the hard problems generally are proofing recovery and redress and Mary could talk about recovery with respect to skype at great length, but the point is that if you if you are you and you have some Identity and you lose access you need the way to recover that access Um, it was that that was someone named tom. I think um Tom yeah, which tom Tom jones. So tom is sorry to out you tom if you didn't want to be outed, but tom is um Works a lot with me and a couple of other folks on this call around the idesg effort to create the idef registry sorry for the massively horrible acronyms but uh But basically tom is a really deep thinker around identity and these issues and um Uh, so anyway that was his I just put it in the chat so that we Would have those I I agree. I mean proofing recovery redress. These are all super important topics Um, I would love to take a look at your document Uh, if you wouldn't mind bev also mentioned i'm wanting to Take a look. I mean you can just make us um commenters if you don't want us to edit or anything But I'd be happy to add stuff that I know about if I see something that isn't in there already Um, that would be really great. The reason we want to Or what I think it's good that we have this is more of an open dialogue right now It's precisely to get more voices, especially people familiar with the area who have been thinking about it so I just put a link in there to um to the wiki page um where There's another copy of the um of the information and it's editable and Really love it if you could add to it But just to go back to what tom was uh, hi tom What tom was saying um recover a proofing recovery and redress on the redress topic It's what that calls to mind for me is um very much when you think about legal identity for a um a person a legal person a human being Or a corporate entity in this case one of the um hallmarks is that You are a legal person when you can sue and be sued And when you can enter a contract um, you know like a A bot at this point or like a lawnmower or blender cannot enter a contract It cannot be a signatory. It's not a legal person um, you enter a contract You can enforce the contract and it can be enforced against you um, this is An indicia of redress i'd say and so it seems to me like redress in particular has a has a um A lot of connotations on from a legal dimension on what an identity is and therefore perhaps what it would mean to have um Dominion over one's own identity Good doesn't a question i'm gonna have to drop off in a few minutes, but i i want to pick up on the point about recovery because Personally, I think this is the biggest challenge In the digital realm is uh, you know, I haven't I'm unsatisfied with every sort of proposed solution that i've seen And it feels as though, you know, sort of the best one i've seen at this stage is um Some kind of, you know social recovery where you have, you know, trusted group of people who effectively vouch for your identity, but even that leaves me very very unsatisfied um I'm just wondering what thoughts are on the best proposals people have seen put forth because um, I think it's a really important point that uh Whatever whatever the model whether it's property or copyright or some other Uh model that we borrow. I think if you if you don't have an effective way to recover Your identity or one of your identities probably in the future um You know to some extent it's meaningless so I just like to crowdsource thoughts on that Can I jump dash can I jump in? Yeah, I think we've got uh, we have like a clarifying question first If you don't mind from bob craig who's in the room in boston here I'm just curious when we used to say you find the social recovery unsatisfying Can you expound on that a little bit as why? um, well So personally full disclosure my favorite show is black mirror. Um And I very much believe in the you know the imminent dark side of a lot of technology not Because it was you know intentionally designed to be a certain way, but uh because it's unforeseeable sometimes um, so just like you have you know a movement of former social media engineers now saying We didn't know what we were building and we wish we could undo it. Um, I just think that um I'm skeptical of most approaches with social recovery. I think You know things change right in relationships change. Um people Leave people change people die. Uh, I just uh, and you're and your identity is contextual and so I um In incentives might be an issue as well. So I I'm just uh, I guess because I haven't seen a good Sort of practical implementation. Um That's why I'm skeptical that being said again. I think it's one of the better options um, and I think there are obviously Ways to you know better and worse ways to implement that option. Uh, but that's I guess that's my clarification Great. Thanks. Thanks. Uh, and who was um, um Seeking this because it that was jim great Um, I work with mary and tom Uh, I'm chair of the user committee. We're working with mary and the IDF And I like what elizabeth shared regarding property and we get in down into the whole area of authenticated Identities and I think We need the the collective mindset of this group to put together because I really believe One's identity once authenticated is property Uh, then you can take the tentacles beyond that but it is you now you have to authenticate it We have to really expand that definition. But now that nest 600 Uh, 80 uh 863 three is in place. We we at least have a platform to explore The the context of what those authenticated Uh attributes can be That lends to this greater argument discussion that we've had here because then it does to to live elizabeth's point property Because now mary gave a broad definition to the zip code and things of that nature if I can really narrow this down And I happen to be in health care and what's really made it interesting this just earlier. I mean two months ago Uh, oh and c has now come out with the whole platform dealing with the trust exchange framework And they're focusing now on the user. You can come get your data You can view it download it and share it. You just have to prove who you are Validated now we're coming back to eight hundred sixty three three So we have some dynamics in play here that you take this brain trust online And and start harmonizing to elizabeth's kind of opening salvo that says hey, can we do something? Can we orchestrate it? I think it's dynamic. Yes, I do I really think we can empower this group I mean take it on the private sector and make it happen because then we can force the public sector government Yeah, you can't let depend on that you've got to do it in a private sector This is an opportunity Here here just my two cents Good to hear um, oh and c office of the national coordinator Um in the health care space is um is taking that on I wasn't aware of that just to extrapolate a little bit on the um recovery um when when um Tom first said it I wasn't You know, I guess I was thinking about the the remedies um more as I mentioned But on recovery now that I think about it if you if you look at least in the personal property realm And I have to think about intellectual property more and maybe do that with the mapping that mary said But in the personal property realm, there's actually a nice body of law for hundreds of years um when when someone loses personal property And someone else finds it um There's a whole set of um of factors that one could look at to To um evaluate whether the original owner or under what circumstances the original owner gets to get it back um And so we've got principles of holder and due course and and many others that some of which could make could be Or maybe, you know modern Extensions of them could be applicable to recovery of an account or recovery of a credential when it's been compromised Because that can be such a tough tough thing under dan combs used to say That um when he was dealing with identity fraud frequently the fraud artists that stolen one's identity is much more persuasive Then the person whose identity was stolen when they're trying to you know struggle to get it back So principles of holder and due course and maybe some others for lost property Which have you already been addressed over? Centuries now in common law so many permutations of the same old situation of someone stealing your stuff Or someone converting your stuff or someone coming across your stuff and not wanting to give it back when they should Could maybe be dusted off here and um, we could look to apply some for recovery Everybody's a great one I think that there's a big problem if you depend upon the legal system to get your identity back You'll probably starve to death and die before it actually is recovered the biggest problem With loss of identity is not just getting it back But then the redress of undoing all of that damage that was created in your name While your identity was gone The costs there are tremendous You can buy a million dollar property damage claim insurance now to cover that problem Hmm And that's an interesting area you see too or sort of proposals identity related insurance and other you know As you mentioned sort of disaster recovery proposals as well So I you know Mary if you want i'm happy to to start the property section and you can maybe help me with the The copyright section um and we can map those too Yeah, yeah, that sounds good I also think um, you know, there when daza when you were just bringing up the notion of you know fraud versus um, I mean in property it would be theft or But there's you know, there's the notion in property law around conversion and conversion is a really interesting one because Even if you don't know that the property is stolen if you profit from it There's a civil version of it and a criminal version and the criminal version, of course Like everything criminal has a very high bar of proving that you know You you converted it and you did stuff with it You knew you were converting it and all of that But the civil version is actually really easy to to deal with so if I don't know your neighbor cuts down your tree and sells it for 25 grand which now you know a nice beefy old growth tree can fetch um, I I know someone who did this they essentially just sued their neighbor for conversion and of their property and uh and were Handed legal fees plus $25,000 and it's it would be really interesting also in this legal page to take a look at some of those things that might be remedies against Entities that so for example, Cambridge analytics, which has just gotten nailed for Taking facebook data inappropriately. They said they deleted it. They didn't delete it What if the 50 million users if if facebook is forced to disclose to any of us who might be in that group? then You know because there was a there was a monetary value for the conversion of our data essentially the taking of it and converting of it to value in the election Um, you know sued camber generalitica in a class action lawsuit for conversion You know, that would be an interesting. Um That would be a really interesting case and it it would rely on property rights because that's what conversion is about but it's um You know It's it's sort of like they took the account data You know, I think you could make the argument there that that you know property is at play and so um You know, so doing uh doing this mapping of the current laws and seeing how they might apply To our digital data and lives would be fascinating because it might be a way to push back Um and and get some traction Uh, you know that way because i'm not sure that our lawmakers are anywhere close to understanding what the people in this room get you know Here here conversion, um trust passed to chattel There's a few yeah, we should probably Get a few in the wiki and just crop like cross-reference them and map them as you said mary Yeah, with the tree this one thing with the tree is um You know to some extent trees are almost like commodities, but a tree and a property It's an old growth tree is also so unique and you know, there's something ineffable about it That goes beyond the raw monetary value of it. Um, you know when you get into family history with the tree and the emotional attachment and just the fact that it's living um something I think it's that that's a particularly poignant um analogy to what's lost when one's identity is lost And i'm sorry just i think i interrupted you mary No, it's it's okay. What's interesting about the tree example for me is that um, is that the the conversion the civil conversion Charge that was made against the the neighbor um, the only recovery that they were able to get was the actual value of what the person Um took right whether or not they went down the street and sold the tree for 25 cents It was worth 25 000 on the open market. And so that's what you know So the question is how then you would have to look at what is You know the taking of an account in a con in a context in an in a You know divisive and contested election and the amount of money that was spent on that election per vote You might be able to make the argument that you know, two billion dollars or three billion dollars spent for you know 100 million votes You know, I don't know. I mean there's various ways that you could value this But you could or the amount of money that was spent with cambridge analytica, you know I mean it just it would be kind of fascinating to try to track the economic damages And see if that wouldn't be a way to um You know to push back for the individual Does this mean that adverse possession would apply as well If I don't reclaim if I don't reclaim something I lose it What if you don't know about it? I mean, I don't think adverse possession matters Well, no in in if it's a property, right? So let's say yes, if it's a property We had an adverse possession problem in our homeowners association Or the guy didn't know he lost the property and he didn't know it for long enough that he lost it Oh, interesting. Well that that example might be different, but I'm thinking of um The the example it's often um plays out in like a law school class is the one where The guy has a property halfway through the block and he doesn't fence it And people walk through the property every day for five years and once that you know In theory the the guy has visited his property once in the five years and can see people walking through Didn't bother to fence it and now those people claim that they have a right To pass through and so while he doesn't lose the whole property He he essentially is forced to make a public easement And I can't you know, re-fence it and so um You know that does that apply to your identity? So if you don't use it I'm just giving the property example where the individual is essentially considered to be on notice When their own property is used every day by other people So it's like if you knew your your facebook data was being used In an obvious manner that would be one thing But if you had no if it was completely opaque and you didn't know Would you would you fall into the category you're talking about tom? I don't know I mean I'd really have to think about it and look at the law and see if if there was some way to apply it there I don't know That's that's different in every single state too Yeah Does Yes This is Jim Let me Bring up a parallel discussion federated identities I want to bring us back on track because we get in federated identities. We have a distributed system Just to something that elizabeth has been doing from the sovereign side So in healthcare and part of why I bring it bring up what onc is doing because it's a distributed system on our federated side okay, so Just Well an interesting clarification I think a federated model is actually quite different from a self sovereign model I think a federated model or even a social login model or the like are still very much controlled by a third party um, I think this the self sovereign model is really The focus is really on on flipping the ownership to where you know the user owns and controls their data going back to that first independence and ownership principle or you know, again the property right model So while I agree with you, I think I think it's important to make that distinction because I think there are limits to federation I think You know, like I said, we've seen a lot of federated models that are that have created a lot of problems So just want to be clear that the the sovereign sort of implementation is different But how can you not link those things because you're going to wind up with a person who is also an md And has a dea license so you bound the real person identity to the federated identity so I think this goes to having multiple You know identities and again, not that the individual necessarily has multiple identities, but that it's contextual to the relationship so there might be relationships that you have that are part of a transactional you know part of a transactional relationship where you need more or less Data points to establish different levels of identity So, you know The identity you need to establish with your doctor might be different from they don't need to establish with your employer or your university Or you know, there might be information that's not germane to a certain relationship And so the emphasis would really be on minimizing and you know data. That's not relevant And this goes into the you know specifics of implementation, but You know, I think it's important to keep in mind that we in the future We might not have one single identity, but sort of a more contextual purpose-built version of Several different identities. Yeah, just to wind wind Wind that back a little bit. Um, there's another aspect too. I think that gets to not maybe not federation in the You know samol or open id connect sense of the word federation but um the distribution Of an identity credential that could be considered sovereign Um, would presumably also include the right to provide some control to others such as to delegate To another person whether it's an attorney or fiduciary or You know, maybe software operated by a business on your behalf I think that might be one plausible entry point where you could start to look at Possible fact patterns in the future where you've got folks that are um, maybe unknowingly and innocently Coming into possession of identity credentials or attributes of identity Using them almost like they would with the analogy of the um The easement across your property and then maybe gaining reputation You know gaining benefit from it legitimately and gaining value and I think in addition to the to the monetary questions of like, you know, who owes who how much money to me this seems like a In maybe in the mapping we could do it with mary and in others would be equitable remedies when we start looking at other ways to Other other ways to um separate. Um, you know, like the the um expectations of parties in a in a fair and creative way that um That can extend beyond A monetary settlement, but maybe you could go to some sort of Application of portability or taking some of the attributes out and applying them to a different account Something like that, but I guess I just want to say Looking at equitable remedies in addition to monetary remedies. Maybe as part of the mapping we should do Um dad's I think that brought up a really interesting and important point in the chat um on the difference between identification and authentication identification being Uh an individual trying to make a claim about their identity or identify themselves and then a third party authenticating that claim And I I don't want to I've brought it up So I'll let her speak to it But um, I just think that also is really interesting in the context of what you just said because the remedies might depend on Sort of which aspect of of identity we're talking about Here here Um question if we were to um if we were to do a mapping Um, oh I've got the two-minute warning here. Um, but if we were to do a mapping, um, how could one structure mapping to Different areas of law and different facets of identity like what would be the things we should map and and how could we do it? Um, so with the property model, I was going to start with you know, bundle of rights and then maybe sort of kinds of infringements and then remedies Um, and then you know, I don't know if that's going to mirror one-to-one with other models, but um And I don't know that they you know, they all have to have a one-to-one relationship But that that was sort of my proposal And then um, maybe I'm layering on intellectual property hope mary Yeah, I was going to say, um, you know, I if if nothing else just literally starting from a list of laws and quoting The you know the code maybe in I don't know I mean this might be better in a wiki or something but or in in github with sub Subpages for the actual quote, but being able to tie together the general concepts and build the You know what you're trying to do is say well, where are the limits of these these laws that Existed prior to anything digital and then how would we apply them? You know, how would they be applied to the to a digital context? Let's say um And You know, I think it would probably be the sort of thing that you know If a working group got together and I would love to join a group like that Because this is actually I've been wanting to do the copyright side of this for a long time um Literally from 20 years ago. I think I wrote my first blog post on You know how I wanted to copyright my click stream and what was the law around it and how would I do it? But uh It would be really interesting to we I think we would have to figure it out as we went along I think we I think we catalogued everything first and um figured out a structure so that we could refer back to the original text and of course to tom's point It's like yeah, there's 50 different states that you know deal with some of this but um It would be very interesting. I mean, it would be a fascinating contribution to kind of the public discussion around these issues Because this does come up periodically and it has come up regularly for me in the past 20 years around this, you know from All different angles and in all different kinds of groups. There's certainly been sessions at w3c um conferences that have to do with do not track and and personal rights user submitted rights or user submitted terms and you know, it has to do with um Uh, you know all these issues that we deal with around identity and personal data control and whether you're you're starting with An identified person or they own an account Or you're deriving You know data, I mean just it's I would imagine doing it in a really big way and doing it in a way that You know was was meant to Just document and kind of lay out And maybe at the end there's a paper in it, you know asserting You know a law review article something I mean, so maybe we at the end we go get some lawyer like spat david and he said all right Let's write a law review article, you know, and where's the right publication for this? Does it go in the property rights journal? Does it go in the copyright journal? Maybe there's two? I don't know But it would be fascinating to I think it would be a fascinating project and well worth the time because Because ultimately um, and there have been people who I don't there's a few people There's a guy a lawyer in dc who the customer commons group talks to periodically and we talk about You know ways that we could go after abusers of personal data and identity There's you know In new york that we've talked with who are sort of more on the media side Um, but you know this is a topic that comes up and I don't think anybody's done this And and I think it would be a huge it would be a huge way to move this whole discussion forward um to do the work and get the paper out there and You know make it citable. I mean, that's how you change law you make law review articles that get cited in court cases You know I'm in Well, we have we have a wiki. Uh, anyway to as one place we can start to um Peck away at things and uh, you know, we made the github repository Um specifically to have a place to get started. So we're welcome to use that and are you going to be at iiw mary? this uh You know, I don't know i'm supposed to go to the no identity conference in dc Which is right before and it turns out that the iw thing is like literally the day after Easter and Passover and everything else and so there's a sort of a lot of people traveling around and trying to you know Manage our schedules and and interface with all the people who are going on spring break. So I I haven't totally decided because of that complication Well, um, so something to think about maybe Maybe like a little side sidebar at no identity iiw or one of the one of the next likely candidates Among the identity a hum coming up or we can um, we can keep I'm talking about this and um Well one one concept that we had had um when elizabeth and I were chatting we um circling around a little bit to um bob craig and to drummond and some others um christian here was um to maybe convene people that are interested in in the topic um, which we can convene at mit Just because I can book the room in the media lab, but we can also we Absolutely convene around this in particular But it might be more realistic to look at things that are happening where enough people interested in the topic Are already going to be and maybe get some people together in person and in the meantime You know github is as always our friend and um And I would like to invite and encourage everybody that's um participating now and everyone that sees the youtube later um to um to Share your thoughts and to help expand on this and deepen it because It does seem like it's timely and um, it's important. So so let's keep let's keep pecking at it Okay, sounds good Okay, well um elizabeth um is going to um teach people now. So she had to sorry jump off. Um, uh pretty much Before in this moment, but I guess um as the um Remaining facilitator um I'll gavel it closed. I want to thank everybody for participating and um and we'll do a report out In the boston mit node for the computational law and blockchain festival Um and and share our notes and um and look forward to collaborating with you all on this going forward So thanks for thanks for joining Bye