 Matters here on a given Wednesday with Mark Say joins us from Antwerp in Belgium, half a world away. And we're talking about his movie, Youth City Hall, which was selected in the Colorado Environmental Film Festival, along with our movies Spiraling Crisis. And so that's we got, that's how we got to know Mark, we were in an interview together. They interviewed the two of us and we batted it back and forth for a while. And that was a great experience. Welcome to the show, Mark. Thanks for having me here. So I guess the first question is, you know, you're in Belgium, you're, what did you tell me two, three, four thousand kilometers away from Ukraine? What's the reaction to the Ukrainian invasion in Belgium? Yeah, well, the reaction is, is much like in the most countries of Europe now, basically afraid of what is going to happen, seeing that Putin has put the nuclear, has put the nuclear step on the table. And so that the war will spill over to middle and Western Europe also. And as other countries have done too, we as a country or rather, our government is now supporting the people in the Ukraine with extra weaponry and other kinds of support. But of course, since the Ukraine is not part of NATO, and will not be part of NATO, as I understand the European debate on this, it cannot call in Article five of NATO and then send in troops of all the members there, which for the moment is keeping off, yeah, a much larger scale war, like World War Three, you could say. So that is still not on the agenda, but you never know where we're going to end up if people keep thinking in terms of war and escalating power, escalating power combat, actually. Yeah, of course, what is going on in the Ukraine itself is horrible for the people there. Refugees now over, is it already over a million, I wouldn't be surprised, fleeing the country, but openly received and welcomed by the polls and everybody else basically in Europe. So that in itself is a good thing. But the people in Kiev now, they must go through hell now. That's for sure. And I'm hoping that diplomacy will still get back on track. So that on the one hand, the the Europeans, or the European leaders will listen a bit more carefully to Putin's frustration over the expansion of NATO, which is one of his main reasons to start this still in my view, absurd war. And then of course, on the other hand, that by now, Putin also should realize that economically, he is being blocked on on pretty much every side except for Eurasia, except for Asia, where we don't know the real decisions yet. That's that's how far I can get into into the Ukraine situation in a couple of minutes. Yeah, one question, though, you're an educator in a school in Belgium and Antwerp. And I wonder if you can tell us how, how the students feel, how the kids feel, how the younger generation feels about this? Yeah, well, I will be able to say more about that only next week, I think, because it's been this war has been going on, of course, the buildup has been there for months and even years, you could say. But the actual war, the shooting and everything, that's only been a week. So I myself will will be teaching a bit or saying a bit to my students in in college about after this week of holiday, we're now in in Belgium, the spring holiday we have here. We can circle back with you later, find out how the how the things have changed because they will change. Yeah. So, Mark, tell us about your school and tell us the connection between your school and the movie that that was selected in the Environmental Film Festival, Youth City Hall. And if you don't mind, do not, do not tell us in Flemish, do not, do not tell us in French. English would be good. English would be good, I guess. Yeah, we'll try to, we'll try to speak English as good as I can. Okay, so this movie to our own college, it's a university college where I work and where I actually teach the teachers. That's what I do. And to, yeah, to, to modernize education, to realize some things in secondary education, so schools, and what we're after is the extended school for world citizens, actually, bringing together more theory and practice, also more science into citizenship, and the neighborhood organization so that schools become the driving force for citizenship in neighborhoods, especially city neighborhoods, urban education. This is, this is a bit the theory that we are now developing in our up university college in Antwerp. And we're trying to, well, we have now realized in Antwerp city education that this theory, this wealth theory has now become official policy for the schools in Antwerp city, which now, so, so now this theory has become city level, which is a good thing. But to spread it further, we thought we needed something else, something else than just paper, books, manual, you know, something that gets the message message across both nationally and internationally. And that's why we have made this movie. And we, we show what the theory is about or give an idea in the movie of what theory is about. But we have taken as our example, ecological crisis, because we think that's the main crisis of today. And this is also how to reach most youngsters. You have you, you start out with a level of awareness on the part of the students or are you starting with a, so to speak, a clean slate? A clean slate it is not because in this movie, we have worked with the students of the sixth year, so the 18 year olds, 17, 18, 19 year olds, and they have had already some lessons or some classes before on ecological matters, but not not as we as we actually wanted it within this theory of ours. So not directed at learning how to make a political choice on a major social full time in society, which is the one between eco modernists and the people advocating system change. This, this takes them another step further as 18 year olds. And I think this is what citizens actually should be able to do when they become adults, 18 year olds, that is being able to make a decent political choice on the major social fault lines, so that they become critical citizens and have an eye for society and the world. Well, do you advocate specific actions? Or do you leave it to them to have this conversation and determine their own actions? I would say, of course, their own actions in this in the structure of this type of project, this theory we have, there is room for actions to combine with action groups, even. But these have to be made and decided by the kids themselves. It is not the educator, it is not the school, it is not, it is not policy to, you know, direct kids or youth into that or that political direction, it has to remain their own choice. That's for sure. Participating and that means having your own say about what and how you're going to study and involve yourself in this problematic has to be in the hands of the students themselves. If not, we actually don't teach them to become critical self dependent citizens, right? Yes, absolutely. So important. So we have a trailer and we'll play it in a moment. But can you tell us what to expect in the trailer? Yeah, the trailer shows a couple of the main scenes where you will see that students are debating with one another, the hot topics actually, you will also see that we try to give an idea of what the theory behind the thing is already in the trailer, just an idea. And you will also see that they are going on excursions that science is involved, but also that art is involved. Also that the neighborhood, the parents are more involved, all things that school nowadays in cities are looking for to get more help, more support from the community to teach the kids what they need to learn. And this already is in the trailer. And I hope that we that with this trailer, people will will be sparked or will be or will get interested in watching the full movie. Okay, let's play the trailer. I think that the young people are actually too little on the level of politics and all that is going on. The young people, we are in a time zone. Our future is in the game. We really have to take action to push the limit. Imagine schools would tackle the main problems of our time. What if there was a wave? Yeah, but wait a second, we have now an energy problem. We have now an energy transition to do. We are going to make a marketer, a race car with a car that represents our economy. And that actually stimulates our nature. I think that they are much stronger in the society, and also know much more about the environment where they live in. And what it actually plays in our city. The biggest impact that you can have as a person is actually to close you up with a citizen movement. What is the word? Consumption to buy expensive products. And for a product that is not available in the market, there are a lot of things that are not available in the market. World education learning for tomorrow is team teaching for a better world. Yeah, that helps Mark to understand the vitality of these kids. Impressive. And I think I know the answer, but I'll ask you what kind of reaction did you have to the kids that you approached to participate and the kids who approached to help you make the film? Well, I think as the research student of our college says in the movie, because she researched what the kids were really thinking and how they were evolving throughout the year-long project, she actually said that it is obvious for the kids that this is actually extra value to their training to their to their schooling. So it's not just simply that they liked it, which was also quite obvious, but very much that they understood that this was extra value to schooling that it made schooling for them more active and more fascinating is maybe over the top, but more interesting, going to do stuff outside of school with what you learned, connecting to civil movements, researching things and doing service learning, all these things which nowadays they are around here and there and also all these modernization aspects of people like me looking to improve education also as far as we can, all these things are around. But what we have tried to do is to put this into one type, well type of project so that these kids could actually see what all these things that they have sometimes heard about if you bring them together in a decent way can actually mean for them. And I think they understood. So did you did you have the participation of the whole school, all the forms and classes, all the grades or was it a selected class and grade and group of students? It is always a selected group and grade. This was the sixth year, both vocational, general, technical strength, attracts of education and it was all the teachers of all school subjects working together on this project, but only for the 18 year old. So for the sixth years, not the others because this type of project, the design we have and the content that it has is too difficult for 14, even 16 year olds. It was really directed at 18 year olds so that the school subjects could couple their content to the theme of the project. Yes, perfect. Now, what about other schools? I mean, where I assume this is only your school, but maybe there are other schools around that were or could be or will be interested in the same process, the same experience. Tell us about how you think this might expand out. Yeah, well, there are now already in Antwerp since it has become official policy, there are now already more than 20 schools working like this or having projects like this in their program. They're starting, of course, because it's very recent material here. So but they're already 21 schools in Antwerp City working this way, but on the level of university colleges where you have the teacher training programs there we now try to get the theory across. That is to to explain what it is about to share the results to show what the theory contains. That is what we are now doing in the in what we call here a professionalization strike. This is a trajectory for professionals that they can follows to understand the theory and to apply it themselves in their universities or colleges. Ah, so maybe so maybe it goes to Brussels. Maybe it goes to other cities in Belgium. Maybe it goes to other countries. What do you think? Yeah, well, I'm hoping and already I've got the question that may well a question from somebody involved on a high level in Brussels that maybe we will start to do it for Brussels too. But of course, and this is what we have tried in the movie actually that is to show the most generic aspects of the theory. So the things that can be applied in other countries and other cities too. And hopefully some other countries or some other cities in other countries will be interested so that it spreads because we think that getting youth and involved especially in the ecological crisis now or in the activism that is around there is it is going to be it's going to be crucial to get the right policies put through to to get the right the right ideas about how how to yeah how to to to get back to a societal development that is beneficial for all. I think it is crucial that youth steps in get gets involved dusting but of course with the necessary knowledge and the necessary school because if not then then of course creative crazy things can happen too. Yes, well we know. What about the language format? I assume it's in English but you have titles and other languages. We have subtitled the movie in English and we have on our website well centered dot org we we got also a manual that it has been translated in English. That's the language we use but we don't have the money nor the capacity to to translate all our stuff into other languages now we're using English as the second language. Flemish still is the language in which most of our things are explained but English is here and there so that there are sufficient things that are sufficient means to get the message across across borders also. So we think tech are familiar with the learning curve about making a film and environmental film a documentary film. You were essentially in the middle of the project so you had a certain amount of resource available to you but can you describe the process by which you know from where you started to where you ended how you made the movie who you called upon the resources you use the organizational skills and you know academic track you built for it and how it was as an experience to make this film. Well let's say that the preparation took took more than a decade not directed at the movie but the reading reading up and into ecological crisis or being busy with the environment. That's something that with me already dates back to when I was just a student in university myself. That goes way way back and I follow this the discussions on the environment and ecological crisis ever since and of course once people like Thunberg came to the front I got into it much more. That's the effect of this this youngster on me. I really got involved there and I started to dig in deeper and go also into the scientific side of things more and so the preparation took a long long time I could say you need to do this because if not then you were then you leave yourself open to all kinds of criticism you have to be you know when you state fact you have to be correct when you you have when you speak about planetary boundaries you have to be able to explain what that is when you speak about things like problem shifting or cost shifting or rebound effects in this in this matter or this thing you really need to know what you're talking about so that that's one and then two for the movie itself that was already cooking for let's say six years because before I made a same kind of movie on the refugee question but I knew that this ecological question was going to resurface again and it did again and when that happened I said okay now let's go for this too and then I wrote a book on this theory this well theory and I started to make preparations for the movie and first thing that I needed to know was will I have the necessary funding to to get at least two professionals on board at least two so that we could also work with two cameras and I that I also had a professional editor which is my my wife actually that I had two professionals on board and we got necessary funding thanks to well on the one hand up university college in in Antwerp but also the the free thinkers of the Flanders who yeah invested some money but then also the the Knowledge Center for World Citizenship in Brussels and the the city system of Antwerp Education all these combined they they made it possible to get these people on board and paid them for paid them half time for a whole year to put it that way if you got that you got some possibilities and then of course the project design for this project I had to develop and that took about a year a year and a half where all the preparation that I did like for 10 10 up to you in 15 years you know I had to summarize and translate that into the language or the possibilities of these kids 18 year olds so it had to be understandable for both the teachers there but also for the kids I had to be able to be in there also and explain them what it was about on their level which was a pretty hard thing to do I must say but okay I think we got away with it and all of that combined yeah started to what we saw okay it's possible we tried it first with other people to start up but that didn't work too well but then with these two people so my wife and a former friend of hers which with whom she's still working at Ramos Medashvili which is a very very good cameraman and he's actually a visual artist these two people of course helped me out on every technical front also what I did was just put put this design for this project together so the educational side and I was just helping out by showing look if you go and fill them this and this and this scene there we will probably get the necessary things I knew this in advance but I'm not really like you would say a director knowing exactly which scene because it was also not played right it was in real time though spontaneous sure spontaneous thing yes and so that the directing part for me was quite easy actually I had my project design I knew which scenes were gonna come so which phases in the theory described how the movie actually was gonna look what it was gonna look like so in broad strokes that was that was my part to to you know to do with the brush that was my part but then everything else was up to these two professionals they made the material and then eventually the editing is super and so the investment was every bit worthwhile and people now or that have seen the movie I can honestly say are very glad that we made it and actually you're very happy to make the to make the investment so all together quite fine yeah well where are you on the the distribution of the movie is it out in public I know it's in the film festival but there's a certain control on how far you can distribute it where is it now and and can our viewers find it and see it and if not immediately then when they can they can apply for a screening on our website wealthcenter.org or t they they can find the official movie page and the button where to apply for a screening they can but for the moment we are organizing screenings by a bit all over Antwerp and we're building up to some academic conference also together with some social organizations so we are slowly building up now we have done a couple of a lot as you know of course too we have done a couple of film festivals where it was also was quite well received but apart from that we haven't done much for distribution yet we want to see where to go first and who who we encounter you know like you for that this was this was just super great the interview we had for Kev there and with the film movie Aspiring Crisis this was a very good conversation and I knew content-wise also that it would be a good a good match and this is the way I want to proceed not not looking for you know making making money or anything like that but looking for the right connections where does it click content-wise so that we we can you know globally even start building a network or a community more or less that has more or less the same ideas is working even from different angles on same topics and everything this to me is much more interesting you know so you know it suggests I mean first you did migrants and that is a very important has been in real remain and especially if you have you know the refugees coming from Ukraine which aren't going back to Ukraine right away so that was migrants is an ongoing topic and certainly climate change and environment is an ongoing topic so my question to you is certainly certainly Mark you're not done here certainly there's more in the pipeline you have other plans can you talk about it well for as far as movie world is concerned I think maybe two things I would very much like to also do a movie on the open society because I I think there are basically three social fault lines in our global society that need the attention of the public the priority of politics actually which is the ecological question and ecological crisis also inequality people that you know want to more equality people that don't want any kind of class but also the open versus the close society the rise of the extreme right you know this I also want to do a movie about but also through the eyes or through the through an educational project the same thing this is one idea so to do a movie on that and another idea that I've got is I already have a title the dialogue I want to have inter interfaith or interworld view dialogue in a school with kids talking about these three main problems and just the dialogue and around it also the structure of this theory you know that this wealth project thing that but that is just in the background and we focus on these kids having this dialogue seeing what their emotions are what their thoughts are and the exchange between that what what do they really believe things will be in the future for them considering these three big problems how do they see the future where are they going the dialogue is what I got in mind that is like a second idea for things concerning the movie world oh I love it I love it because you know they are the future they are the leaders of the future they will save us hopefully you know what we can't do they can do and it's not only a reportage of what they are doing and how they think it's also affecting how they think and encouraging them incentivizing them to go forward to say to say nothing about the schools in general I mean if you can motivate the schools to cover this and open their eyes expand their level of awareness using these films you've really made an impression on Antwerp on Belgium on Europe and the world so it seems to me that the model you've designed here could apply to any number of issues any number of discussions and it could be used again and again as you perfect it because I'm sure that's what will happen I hope so and I'm very grateful to be able to talk about it this year on your show because this is the other side of the globe right and this is the first time for me that I'm doing that I'm doing a talk like this this is just super to actually achieve these goals you know how to achieve these goals don't stop Mark don't stop you know it seems like you're only beginning you're only getting traction now and it's really fabulous to see you do this and to hear you talk you know the concepts you described the production approaches you described they would apply anywhere anywhere they would certainly apply in Hawaii and I would like to follow you in some way or you know consult with you and try to do something like that because you know as you I believe that video and film is a great way to disseminate knowledge and to incentivize people here if I may say so also your own movie Spiral in Crisis which I watched already a week ago now I think but still this is a very important thing also here in Belgium that is when this pandemic broke so the COVID thing came already several critical people in newspapers but also magazines they were they were saying and talking about yeah let's see how this COVID problem is going to change our thinking about our society because as in your movie you know people also see now that different layers of society are touched or in a different way so rich and poor are affected in different ways because of this COVID thing you know the poor in the cities they get more diseases than the rich in the suburbs you know that kind of thing these things have come to the fore in the news of course it was in his cable and this thing so the connecting thing between inequality COVID but also the ecological side of things so when we keep on when we keep on destroying you know the land for all our resources that we need for this an artistic production system that we have you know if we keep on doing that expanding into the forest cutting it down being coming closer to animals that carry these diseases mostly from bats and everything then of course it's only going to get worse and we get things like COVID right so it is all interconnected inequality COVID ecological thing which was actually the subject of your movie right that's what I thought was very to the point and is also the reason why we are now here spreading your film to people that we know in education Yes Mark and I think the common denominator here is A the world is changing and B we're somehow in a moment where we can appreciate the changes and see it as interconnected and see all these issues as perhaps threatening some of them more than others and see solutions that will really save the planet and so I really appreciate what you're doing and what you will do and I think the common denominator for both of us is to try to raise that awareness to make people aware that they're not in a silo and that they have to go beyond what they learn in the classroom take it out into the world and change the world very important and it's it's very important work Mark thank you so much for doing it and I am so happy that we connected through the Colorado Environmental Film Festival and I look forward to more with you I do indeed and I hope we can circle back and do some more together soon Yeah sure so do I by the way so definitely thanks thanks again for having me How do you say goodbye in Flemish Mark Good night Good night Okay Mahalo thank you so much