 Good afternoon everybody and welcome to this IAA webinar on the occasion of International Women's Day 2022. This year we're delighted to be joined by two distinguished panellists from the world of the media. Last year for International Women's Day we focused on women in decision making and this year we decided to shift the lens to women reporting on the decisions. So my name is Hannah DC. I'm the communications director of the Institute of International and European Affairs. We're delighted to be joined today by Shona Murray, your correspondent with Euronews and Mary Regan political reporter RTE News. I'll briefly go through the running order of the event before introducing our speakers. So this event will have 20 minutes of general conversation between myself, Shona and Mary and then we'll move to questions from you, our audience. These use the Zoom Q&A function at the bottom of your screen to ask those questions. The event is live streamed on YouTube so welcome to those of you joining us on YouTube as well as those of you joining us on Zoom. We do encourage you to tweet during the event using the handle at IIA. So I'll just run through the biographies of our speakers before we begin. Shona is your correspondent with Euronews. Previously she was political correspondent with the Irish Independent and foreign affairs correspondent with News Talk. Shona has specialized in Brexit and has reported from dozens of countries including Israel and Gaza, Iraq, the Turkey-Syria border, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, South Sudan, Haiti and Guantanamo Bay. She is also an alumnus of the US State Department Edward R. Murrow program for journalists. Mary Regan is an award-winning journalist who has covered politics for both print and broadcast for more than 10 years. She currently works as political reporter for RTE News and contributes reports and analysis to a wide range of programs for the broadcaster, including presenting the European Parliament report. She joins RTE from the Sunday Business Post where she held positions of news editor and public affairs editor. She is a previously political editor for the Irish Examiner in UTB Ireland. In 2012, Mary was invited by the US State Department to take part in the prestigious international leadership program for emerging young leaders. So I note that both Shona and Mary have participated in US State Department visits, so that's interesting in and of itself. As I said, the event is public and on the record and live streamed on YouTube as well. After the conversation, we wanted to frame this, I suppose, on reporting the EU because it's an issue that is of interest to us in the IIA. But then equally of course, Shona and Mary will regularly in their roles, you know, be thinking about how to frame EU issues when they're putting together their reports and within the context of both international audiences and domestic audiences. But given the context of the war ongoing at the moment in Europe, I think it's more appropriate for us to start with a focus and covering that general frame of how do you make what's happening far away relevant to audiences all across the EU and here at home in Ireland. And so with that Shona, I know you were in Romania recently, you might talk to us a little bit about what's been like over the past few weeks covering this international issue that's gripping all of us and and really hitting home for everybody. And how you do that for your news is distinctly for a domestic and broadcaster. Well, I suppose with your news because it were Europe wide and we have a huge viewership in Eastern Europe as well. Hungary, Romania, and these are obviously the countries the front line the Ukrainian crisis so and they have a huge interest in what's happening, particularly because I was covering the refugees emerging from Ukraine. These are also countries that are in NATO. These are countries that fear Russian attacks fear that their troops NATO troops if there was a Russian attack on any of their countries would be brought into a very large wide international armed conflict. So it's very much these are countries that know the threat of Russia have lived with the threat of Russia. Many of them have been under Soviet occupation or they were in the Soviet Union, and they've always had a concern about Vladimir Putin and his reemerging sphere of influence since the invasion of Crimea in 2014. So these are countries when you when you meet people on the ground they know what they're dealing with in relation to Russia they already have fears and then. And then they have a strong relationship with Ukraine you know a lot of the people I met at the border were local Romanian community workers who wanted to welcome their brethren essentially into Romania. And one thing you know it was for international women's day is that the most remarkable aspect of the people coming through we're all women, all women my age, older, younger, carrying babies in buggies you know we think like just completely initially, they're despondent and despairing about what they left behind their houses in the middle of the night queuing in the snow for 60 hours to get through the border with little children who are just really traumatized because they want their beds. And here they are at eight o'clock in the morning and waiting to get into a snowy football stadium where the tent awaits awaits them. Not their fathers, their mothers are obviously fearful for the lives of their husbands because they've had to stay behind to to fight against Russia. It's a desperate situation of course women taking on a lot of the responsibility by bringing to also elderly grandparents who could just about make it through the border, who again are frail so. And yeah, extremely, I have to say extremely upsetting to see it because of, you know, all this is just so unnecessary, and you know should have been prevented. Obviously, we know that Putin had strongly made up his mind about trying to retake Ukraine a long time ago. So, really, really difficult, but we are viewership would be very tuned in anyway to European affairs. And Ireland obviously being much further away to Ukraine not being a NATO member we don't have that, let's say consciousness about that sort of threat and. It is different explaining to an Irish audience, but Irish audiences are really tuned in as well when it comes to politics and, and they certainly have been because this has been a war that has been pending for several months now we we've been reporting of the on the build up the 100,000 troops from Putin for almost a year you know since Biden came into power that was very much a discussion in Brussels through NATO. And obviously the NATO presence in Afghanistan. Yeah, that's very interesting and I think as well you know the seeing these streams and streams of women and children coming it while we're talking about this is very modern war. There's something that feels very ancient as well about you know women and children first escaping while men are conscripted. And Mary from your perspective you know what's it like this is a story that's been very present in Ireland, comparatively perhaps to other international stories. What's it like covering the you know linking it to the Irish political scene and what's going on and trying to create that continuum between the two. Yeah well I guess it was very interesting listening to show me there because she was very much emerged in the reality of what is happening and just those horrific stories of those women and children in particular crossing the border, just seeking safety for their families, like for me from my perspective I've been covering it more from a policy point of view from a policy perspective. You know any coverage I've done off European affairs over the past, I suppose, probably 15 years of my career so far, first of all, it was covering the euro crash the financial crisis, then it was so Brexit dominated for so long. I think this is the first time that Europe is really being covered from for an Irish audience that isn't related to, you know, a financial issue to a sort of technocratic issue to you know isn't represented as a trade block or a, you know, really graphical space that Europe is really being represented now and it's coming across I think as Europe the sort of idea and the ideal of the European Union, and what it stands for, you know, upholding democratic freedoms the rule of law all those sort of things have really come to the fore, you know in the past two weeks and that is very interesting because that's been different to how Europe has been covered for so for so so long. So, as was shown, we were covering the same Euro Council meeting just the week before last so Thursday morning was when the invasion started. I went from doing a doorstep with me on Martin outside government buildings that morning and I remember the questions we were putting to him straight away was, you know, what is Ireland's position here in terms of sanctions and also can European unity hold so many differing positions. I think it was later that night I was in Brussels for the meeting and again, you know, from my point of view what I was covering it is, you know, so Irish people could really understand what Ireland's position was at the negotiating table, what the issue was saying when he sat around the table with other world leaders. It was interesting because there was a lot of focus at that point on the sanctions, you know whether the swift international payment system would be included. And what was coming across there is that Ireland did favor the strongest possible sanctions at that point Ireland was amongst those at the table arguing for you know the swift system to be included and that's sort of what Irish audience really I think wanted to know what Ireland's position was in relation to that and later that morning that he should came and did a doorstep with us in Brussels and we spoke to Simon cove me shown was there as well in Brussels that afternoon. That was a Friday and Simon cove me was was there to meet other other other foreign affairs ministers. And just during the course of that day I think Ursula von der Leyen came out early that day, the whole Martin and the number of EU leaders, you know, first of all their main message they didn't get across is that we are united, there is solidarity here. But I think they, they came out in the morning and said you know these the strongest unprecedented. Never before seen sanctions and I think just almost just in real time as the day progressed, you could really see that maybe those sanctions at that point just weren't enough. And that happened very very quickly over a very short, you know, couple of hours during the day. And he said, you know that there was a quote that I stuck in my mind from that brain morning he said he just needed to look at the earth under him in the sky above and to know that the sanctions at that point were not enough and he had made an appeal to the European leaders of that council meeting. So, it was clear that the pressure had been building I think throughout that day to the extent that they came back with, you know, slightly stronger sanctions thereafter. Also, I mean my name focus my job is domestic politics like over the dawn mostly. And it's just been interesting from the point of view that we had one story dominating for two full years covert nothing else there was no political story, other political story barely in town after an election that had been so dominated by housing. The system was focused on covert and with you know granted you know housing was also an issue on health and all those issues in the background. And then there was a bit of breathing space where we were trying to, you know, sort of figure out where the new post pandemic politics would would fall. And then suddenly we're into another big story very quickly after that is all consuming all all dominant and calling for extraordinary measures so it's the, you know I think that has been really interesting and just to see over time where it will leave the Irish politics there's already the legacy of the crash was already playing out over the longer term. Then there was a legacy of the pandemic that we were trying to figure out and now there is this so it's really going to fundamentally alter politics but as as to how yes we just don't we just don't know the answer to that. I think it's fascinating there was a brief window there where the news was just a little bit less depressing and now it's right back to very difficult to watch. And, but we've been hosting a lot of events in the recent in the past couple of months on you know how the EU is forged through crises and those have very much focused on you know the financial and economic crisis and how that then connects with the different response to the COVID pandemic and how that was informed. And it's almost seems that Europe's very unified response to this crisis has been able to sort of leverage the connectivity created around the pandemic. And shown have you seen any evidence about it at Brussels level you know the greater, you know the rapidity of the response it's almost as if there was a sense that we can't let this drag the way we did the beginning of the pandemic we have to be fast now. Yeah, I mean, the lessons were learned in the in the early days of the pandemic, you know, because, you know, the, there hadn't been enough, let's say, cohesion amongst the member states. But that's changed fairly early on when your third round line and that the Commission knew they dropped the ball completely. And the best thing that happened in Europe was the vaccine program amongst all 27 member states, because that Ireland wouldn't have vaccines, if we if you weren't a part of that and it was slow at the start because of AstraZeneca. Nobody knew that there was going to be a depletion of its vaccines that we could deliver to the EU and there was obviously problems around that but what it was. It did show that once the Commission works together and the EU member states are working together, they can bulk buy, they have this negotiating heft. And that was the whole point of that 27 member states negotiating a good price and getting in on the market. And I think with the sanctions I think it is separate to be honest with you because one of the concerns around the sanctions is very political because there were some countries in particularly hungry, who has close relations relationships with Putin so there was concern whether Orban would vote in favour of all of the sanctions and and then you did have a very difficult, you know, that Thursday night. There were some countries, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy, who were calling for things like carbides for the luxury goods sector. They didn't want the swift international messaging system on the set of sanctions. And that's why as Mary said, on Thursday night Friday morning. And I think that's why I'm asking everybody kind of realized these sanctions are really not strong enough and it just goes to show you that Putin was right that the EU and the international community can't come back strong enough to parry him and actually do enough damage to make him resist his attacking Ukraine and I think there was a huge, really feeling of failure and Friday morning I think that nobody felt read no matter what they were saying these are unprecedented sanctions. But they weren't strong enough. And then within hours you saw them that doorstep Simon Kovni said okay swift is going to be on the on the list. Actually that Putin is going to be on the list so is Sergey Lavrov. And then on Sunday you saw them then suspending all the licenses for Sputnik for RT saying that Russian propaganda can no longer be part in the EU. That Russian aircraft were no longer going to be able to fly above you airspace, including the jets of the oligarchs. And it's really about and then there was more sanctions against Belarus and it's really created huge momentum that the US has obviously gone alongside the EU and other countries and then other companies as well you know like you know the various transactional companies, Apple pay all of that kind of stuff and it's created huge momentum and I think that's been really remarkable and I think it did start by everybody just saying actually we can't let this happen because it's not just Ukraine this is an existential issue for the global rules based system. And we really need to act fast and now you see the UK slightly lagging behind. You know when it comes to the oligarchs issue in particular, but I think it has reestablished the importance of having the European Union their countries working together regardless of their differences and they had there has been very significant difference in fact I think you could eat the EU is characterized in some way, unfortunately with past few years, because of the differences between countries, southern countries, northern countries, eastern countries, who are slipping into a authoritarianism and so on but now it seems like the EU has been replenished in an ideal. Yeah, certainly and I suppose coverage even of what's happening in Poland it's the most positive coverage of Poland that we've had in our news for quite some time, and we might come back to that in regards to gender equality in a while, just continuing though on the vein of Ukraine, I mean, Mary obviously in the domestic audience there's now, you know, resurgence of questions around neutrality. Do you think that this is going to change our relationship with the EU in a defence context now going forward the years ahead. Yeah, I mean I think it has to and I think that's already apparent with what's being said over the past couple of days but I think it's something that's always been there I don't think it's a new question I think since we joined the European Union that question has always been there but we never really had to, you know, confront it or a deal with it. So, yeah, there's, you know, and it's clear, you know, various party leaders and politicians sort of setting setting out where they stand or where they feel about Irish neutrality at this point. But I don't think it's going to be something that is changed very quickly or changes something that can happen very quickly, you know, in response to what's happening at the moment, you know, I think it's going to be a very long process. And if this is probably the part that the you know the real start of a discussion around this it's probably something that would require ultimately, you know, probably, you know a constitutional referendum because for any sort of decision big enough of this nature would require the consent, I think at least, you know, probably morally at least of the Irish people there would be requirements to have, you know, that consent there by way of referendum. That would be something that's feeding into the debate here at the moment, and something that wasn't anticipated at all just some weeks back that this is the sort of discussion we've been having now about Irish neutrality I mean it was just a few short weeks back that there was discussions around the funding and the resourcing and the financing of our defence forces and their infrastructure. I think this is something that will feed its way more and more I think into the into into into the debate, certainly in the in the door and in the office in the time ahead. Yeah, certainly the timing in line with the report on the funding it's you know, put the issue of our defence forces front and central. And I'm going to go to a question from the audience actually because it's relevant to this aspect of the conversation. And it's from Peter McLoone former Secretary General of Impact Trade Union and member of the IA Board. He asks, how are the Ukrainian media coping presume it is impossible to sustain printed newspapers have shown in merry contact with any Ukrainian journalists and what can be done to support them. We have our Ukrainian journalists that we use like stringers over there in Ukraine, but also we have our staff over there as well. I believe the media is working very well I mean this. I mean it's not actually I think it's more of the problem I think is around Russian media. That's I think that's where you have the concern the Ukrainian media is thriving, because there's an awful lot to report about plus it's in the state's interest to have this this war covered internationally globally and kept on the agenda first on the agenda in every single country in the world in order to maintain international community and internet and spirit. And so I think Ukrainian journalists are, despite the notwithstanding the very threat to their lives that they're experiencing from Russian aerial bombing and, you know, street on street fighting that they it's thriving and then there is obviously, you know, a whole raft of foreign affairs correspondence in Ukraine as well I think I think that that's not a huge problem to be honest with you. It's Russia, obviously we have almost no I think the last independent TV station was closed down recently you have now jailing for over to 15 years for people who are, you know, inciting treason against Russia for condemning the invasion. That's, that's where we have to be concerned about similarly in Belarus where there are 400 political prisoners, including Roman Protosevich by the way a journalist. I can't get over this actually happened but where we know a few months ago, a man, a journalist on a flight a commercial Ryan air flight flying to Lithuania. Somehow over an year country was able to be taken down by Belarusian military and dragged off a plane and is now incarcerated and God only knows in what condition that happened. I mean, and yes, and yes, we know for some reason we we wondered that whether Vladimir Putin had it in him to invade Ukraine with things like this and obviously we know Lukashenko who is the dictator in Belarus is of course, very close with Putin in fact he owes Putin his life and his, his leadership of Belarus Belarus is a satellite state Russia essentially. Almost as if that instance really I think when the history of this is written you know that will be many warning shots. Mary. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm the answer is I'm not in touch with honey journalists in in Ukraine or any Ukrainian journalists in the same way as Shona might, might know some. But I think it's been very interesting to follow the sort of information war that's going on at the moment and focusing on what's happening in you know Russia the attempt to essentially outlaw, you know, Facebook and Twitter and reduced, you know, activities online. Also the, you know, increasing, you know, laws to to jail journalists for 15 years I think it is for for a fake news. So, I mean, I think what's happening to journalists in Russia is obviously of more interest I think at the moment in terms of how, and the way information is being shared in Russia and seemingly so many people not being aware of, you know, the whole pretext for the war in the first place and so many people believing that, you know, the, you know, the point of this war was something that Ukrainians had had wanted. So I think the information, you know, poverty in Russia is something that really has to be focused on it's quite astonishing to watch actually. And I suppose that the broader point of see around, you know, journalists safety and I'm interested to get your views the view has immediate freedom act plan for summer 2022. It's part of the European democracy action plan and we recently welcomed Commissioner Vera you're over where she spoke about it. Obviously, the situation is very different in different member states, and but they do have a recommendation on the safety of journalists following you know, high profile as well as production that you're talking about. It's not a zone of Roman Persevich but also then the murder of Daphne Karuna-Galicia in Malta. To what extent do you think that you know, and safety of journalists across the EU, specifically not even the broader picture is an increasing issue in recent years. Well, seriously, a concern actually in countries like Hungary and Poland where we know Victor Orban has been using Israeli spyware against journalists. That's endangering their lives because who knows what he's going to use that information for you mentioned there Daphne Karuna-Galicia. But also the ability for journalists to do their job where in Hungary Orban has a stranglehold on the media where his cronies buy up all the media ensure that any independent newspapers don't get any advertising. You know, these are real problems because they ensure that people like Orban get re-elected election soon. The type of propaganda he spouts like the Polish government spouts, whether it's really whether it's anti-Semitic relation to George Soros, whether it's about the EU trying to impose its liberal sort of values on Hungary or Poland, which is not the case. We've seen those countries slide into authoritarianism when it comes to gender equality, not just Hungary, Poland, but Slovenia as well. And under Yanisianca who who has withdrawn or withheld public funding for state media in Slovenia meaning that they can't do their job. But of course, and they're just so having to be some of the companies that are critical of him and some of his policies. So that's what Vera Girova is trying to do. I mean, she's from the former Czechoslovakia, and she talks frequently about how important it was to join the EU and to be a part of an ideal that had solidarity with journalists and the importance of free press. And that is sliding very significantly in those countries because it allows those authoritarian regimes and governments to stay in power because they're told all of these lies and there's no independent press to explain us. And so it's very problematic, but also the fact that like I said, Hungary is surveilling journalists. That's extremely dangerous and we just don't know where that's going to end. Hungary remember is regarded as no longer a democracy. Mary, did you want to come in on that? Yeah, so. Yeah, so, you know, I think obviously shown us, you know, given a good account there of this sort of sliding of press freedoms in certain countries, particularly Poland and Hungary. But I think it's one of the other aspects that doesn't really get talked about a lot is that these journalists in these countries are caught not just between the, you know, their governments and the, and the, you know, the, you know, the European type regimes on the one hand, but also they're competing with big tech giants on the other hand. And, you know, they, they, they don't have the, you know, the finance the resources to fight back and, you know, you know, with information sharing so I think that's definitely something that needs to be looked at but I think across Europe to the pandemic we've seen it's not just journalists in certain countries who are coming under pressure from their own governments it's also journalists in countries including Ireland have come under pressure throughout the pandemic certainly through various protest movements. The abuse of journalists online has just, you know, like it's just gone so bad over the past year or so. You know, death threats to journalists, even though they may appear benign and even though they may just be, you know, people nothing off they're still very sinister attacks and journalists through platforms such as Facebook and Twitter. And, you know, I think something that needs to be looked at is whether those platforms want to do anything about you're not here constantly of journalists reporting things, you know, posted about them are posted to them on social media and very little is done about them these people can have their accounts taken down one day and reestablish the following day so I think for most journalists. That is a big issue and I think, you know, as we were talking here today I think it's a particular issue for women journalists seem to experience this sort of online abuse. Speaking to my female colleagues it seems to be more pronounced, you know, these these these attacks on women rather than rather than on their male colleagues for whatever reason. So that is something I would like to see, you know, these tech companies taking a little bit more more seriously and it's one thing taking down really offensive tweets but you know maybe they should just consider not publishing them in the first place. That's really interesting and I was just going to ask whether it was similar to women in politics for four female journalists and you know that there is that increase and the vitriol really experienced just by going about and doing your day to day job. And, Shona, is that something that you've experienced with your colleagues in Brussels as well? Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, Ireland and Europe, there's a lot of these conspiracy theories that we've seen where the mainstream media quote unquote gets caught up with the sort of, you know, the global conspiracy theory so you know it's part of the movement and I think that this is this large distrust of the job that you do even though it's extremely frustrating because you literally just wanted to do the right thing and tell the truth and that there's nothing else in it other than to do that. I mean, really there isn't. And I find that very frustrating and I find it increasingly coming into my own life, not just online but people I know, let's say, friends of friends, when they find that you're a journalist, it's actually, it's a moment of distrust. Oh, I say, oh, you're one of them. You're spouting theories about vaccines or whatever it is or too cozy with the establishment or that you don't, you basically are a mouthpiece for whatever it is, and you know the the EU or the government or whatever which is just not true because you spend your whole life, you know, trying to chase people who don't answer your call who don't answer your questions. And you know and you just yard trying to do I'm not saying that every journalist does right they don't because we look at the state of some of the tabloids in the UK, for example, I mean, like they're, they've, you know, caused a huge amount of problems with the likes of Brexit, with the likes of denying climate change, attacking migrants, you know, they've whipped up fear and they're not good so not every but when you are trying to do the right thing I find it quite difficult and sometimes it is a female thing but sometimes it's more just this, this hatred of the of the media and you see it a lot in RT as well, you know, the protest outside and it's extremely vitriolic and violent actually and yeah I find it so it does happen in Belgium as well there are a lot of conspiracy theorists. There was a lot of protests violent protests around the EU as well. And continuing on that sheet the disinformation theme we have a question in from Alex Conway and IIA researcher, and I'm going to read it out quite long with reference to the information war, do the panel agree that the EU was right to take RT rush today and Sputnik off the air. Is this an effective way to combat this or misinformation and the weaponization of the media, or is it heavy handed censorship which has legitimized the Russian banning of foreign media. It's a very difficult question because in the past I would have been all about the marketplace of ideas, you know, which is kind of what Twitter is and what, what the, you know, what the whole point of having all of these different views that the truth prevails, because we're able to target all the lies with truth and then people see the facts, but that's unfortunately not what's happened over the past few years. There are a number of people who are in ICUs, because they believe vaccines are x y and z you've been told lies. And, and also what Putin has been doing for the past, well, over a decade, interfering with the US election, for example, that allowed to enable people to be elected by lying about Hillary, by, you know, by the lies about Brexit, all of this has been a lot of it Kremlin orientated, or Chinese and orientated the level of disinformation that has emerged over the past few years has been really damaging to democracy. And, and so I would never have agreed to doing that but if you look at some of the stuff that RT says and Sputnik says they have given Russian people a completely wrong view of what's happening in Ukraine that it's being run by Nazis. I mean, this, like, and when we have our own MEPs, Karen Daly and McWell is saying things like that Assad wasn't responsible for the chemical weapons attack or that, you know, Zelensky is a western puppet. You know that the white helmets who are people who pull decapitated children out of burning buildings because of Russian barrel bombs, that they that they're actually linked with al-Qaeda and they stage all of these attacks they don't, they don't and I know them, some of them personally. And so, at that point you have normal people go Mahoud and I mean at these white helmets are definitely, and these are actually to re-risk their lives. So propaganda has gotten us to this place where it's actually created so much fragmentation and dissent and within Western democracy and that's why I can understand getting rid of 14 Sputnik because they are only propaganda. What do they bring to the table? They don't even bring a proper debate to the table, they just tell lies and now you have Russian soldiers in Ukraine, for example, believing that they're there to liberate and then they find that they're not wanted. Yeah, I would be similar to shown in the sense that I would, as a journalist always have been against any sort of state or government or in this case the EU as a whole involvement in, in the sense of, you know, banning any particular type of media or, you know, trying to control it or anything like that. It's not a very good precedent to set and it's not something that, you know, the state should really have a role in. However, we do live in a time where disinformation is now such a huge problem. And, you know, causing so much damage to democracy that something really probably needs to be done at a policy level to tackle this sort of scourge of disinformation. But it's something that probably should be done, not in a sort of responsive kind of way, you know, as being done at the moment in terms of a response to what's actually happening at the moment. It's probably something that policymakers, you know, in all parliaments need to examine, you know, what can be done about disinformation, ultimately it requires, you know, an ethical framework for social media organizations I suppose in the sense that we as journalists, you know, we, we, there is a huge sort of ethical and philosophical foundation to what the media does and why we do it, and it's something we all study as a discipline before we come into journalism, most of us do. But the sort of way information is shared on social media doesn't, you know, doesn't have the same sort of ethical framework around it. That's something that needs to be done. But, you know, I think, as sort of policymakers need to look at what can just be done in terms of disinformation and it might be just something that requires more educational that those that those that which has been attempted and it's just something that hasn't really been working so far. We've got to a situation where, you know, the goalposts have shifted so so dramatically now because of you know what was once hoped to be the sort of democratization of access to publishing and publishing information through social media platforms. But it's really, you know, proved to us the importance of what we're gatekeeper roles and editors and fact checkers, you know, what was a great promise is actually turning into a sort of dystopian nightmare really because we have, you know, more and more need to develop new ways of fact checking and and obviously there's great work being done within that and some of it's funded and here in Ireland the journal.ie you're obviously doing huge hands work on fact checking but you know how is it possible to to even put some sort of structure of gatekeeping or fact checking on when everyone is everyone can publish. Well I mean it's possible for news organizations it's been possible for every newspaper that ever existed since beginning of time. It's been possible for every radio station that existed more or less since beginning of time, and many newspapers have had to close as a result of it because they have to pay for editors they have to pay for gatekeepers, they have to pay for fact checkers. And if was, you know, if it was sort of free for all for newspapers, then in the same way as it does appear to be for for social media organizations then you know a lot of newspapers that have since goes down wouldn't have had to. It's interesting as well because obviously this is an area the EU has you know attempted to legislate on and I assume will continue to attempt to legislate on but where the tech companies have had massive lobbying operations. And with a question in from Ben Tonra Professor of international relations at UCD. He says thanks for the terrific session. And now this touches a little bit on and we talked about it before but might drill down a little bit more. Is there any sense from the colleagues about the media landscape in Russia. And what are their reflections on the apparent ineffectiveness of new media and getting any story across that doesn't drive with the regime's propaganda. Yes, a really interesting one to go and we talked about it earlier because that the issue is not the media in Ukraine, where it's, it's vibrant and obviously journalists are probably working 24 seven let's face it notwithstanding the the bombs the Russian bombs but it is really interesting, listening to correspondents in Russia who say that you know the majority of Russians are listening to the propaganda from the regime and I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, in some parts of Russia not having internet access, and also just researching what they're used to, whether it's or tea or some of the other stations, and also then the crackdown therefore on anyone who wants to be an independent journalist or an opposition person. They have to do it from outside Russia because their target is consistently by Putin's regime. I mean and that's and so it's not just Russia but we mentioned earlier that's happening and hungry. Our his cronies at least are buying up independent newspapers and or and or ensuring that the pro-orban newspapers and media outlets are getting all of the advertising independent radio is losing its licensing. So it's happening already in Hungary and Slovenia like I talked about as well. Yeah, Yana Shansa with withholding a vital funding for state media. When those that state media is ever critical of them so journalists are losing their jobs in the interim they end up having to find new jobs, so then you don't have journalists in the industry anymore because their families to feed so it's not just about Russia it's happening and it's creeping in very slowly in the EU which is why we have that media commission and directive for 2022 but it's very hard to see how that will make a difference because these countries, they've gotten away with not implementing rules of law for so long. And also we're in the midst of an armed conflict here where unity is just has to be sacrosanct. So is Brussels going to start interfering with Yansha and Orban and Kaczynski and Poland in the middle of this crisis. I'm not so sure, but what's happening, you know, for some time now we've been talking about Orban using Putin's tactics in relation to the media. And, and that's kind of what's emerging now. Sorry, I can't remember the question exactly so just. It was about the challenges for the media in Russia and new media in Russia and getting any story across the doesn't have time with the regime's propaganda. Yeah, well, I mean for all we're talking here about social media and stuff like that. It's going to be interesting to see because he has cracked down on on Facebook on Twitter on social media. It's going to be interesting to see what degree of success that's going to have and so far it appears that you can't in the current media age we live in you can't ban information it's impossible it's almost I saw some quotes somewhere someone saying it's like almost trying to ban oxygen you know it's so omnipresent it's so ubiquitous amongst us at the moment that it's impossible to ban so it will be interesting to see how social media can be used for information to get across and for information and crucial information to be shared and whether there will be a positive aspect of that in the sense that it appears that Putin is now losing the information war, and the other side of that is how you know Zelensky has played such a good social media game and how he has used social media really to really good effect to get his message across to to really speak to audiences absolutely everywhere in the world, you know people are sharing, you know, his videos sharing, you know, so many aspects of his communications. So commonly now so the information he's been using it to great effect. So, you know, we just have to have to wait and see how things play out in Russia in that sense how people managed to get that information across. But I suppose that the law of 15 years in prison for sharing this information quote unquote is going to obviously ensure that people are to fight and to pass on information or journalists are fighting to to read if I did see some videos in Moscow of police not arrested people protest but randomly checking people's phones to have a look and see what they were sharing. So it's a complete police state and that's really difficult whereas, like as Mary said in contrast Zelensky talking to the world with his 15 second or one minute videos and also the image that the Ukrainian army is portraying or creating or curating I should say of when they when they take a prisoner of war, they're showing videos of them being fed calling their mothers, the conversation with the mother is I'm not in Crimea, I'm not training, I'm in Kiev, or, you know, and, and then the world can see that the Russian soldiers were, you know, lied to by Putin and that they don't want to be in the middle of this armed conflict and that they on the opposite side Ukrainians are far from Nazis but actually engaging the proper way they should be when it comes to Geneva Convention the protection protection of prisoners of war so it's really showing the two contrasting sides the aggressor and then the innocent country that's defending liberty and Europe. And there's some remarkable examples emerging as well I think of innovative ways to get information across you know we've seen them that there's people writing reviews on restaurants in Russia, you know, we that are not reviews they're actually descriptions of what's happening and equally that I've seen recently saw a tick tock of a woman showing how to use an abandoned tank, and you know, in the Ukraine so these are really, you know, there's so many aspects of this conflict that are deeply different but the lens keys curation of his relationship with the media is particularly interesting touches on a broader point I wanted to get your views on around, you know, we often talk about the use communication problem, but every now and again when a really large is significant figurehead comes along it's much easier to draw attention. And to whatever issue it is that they spearhead and Zelensky seems to be doing that extremely in extremely savvy way. And do you think that's made a difference to how people are engaging with this. I'd say so yeah I mean that week, when the EU or to the invasion of Tuesday that Thursday was the big meeting about the sanctions and Zelensky appeared to the 27 appeal to them to have the strongest sanctions ever as I said, I don't know when I'm going to see you again or if I am. And actually, I spoke to several sources after that they sounds just perfect but they had priced in is where it's someone used to me that Zelensky may not make a pass the weekend. That weekend because you know he is number one on the hit list or kill list from the US and decided to stay and fight and refused. And a ride as he called it from the US he said I don't want to ride I want tanks basically an arm arms. And so he deserves less of the value that he's getting because of the way he is leading the fight. And he's leading it for the greater good and he and he says that all the time we're Europeans. We've proven that we're Europeans and it's also about him becoming a fully fetched member of the European Union, and the price we're paying we will pay for membership of the EU is the blood of our people. All of that strikes a chord with everybody because it does hark back to the creation of the European Union itself but also that people can't help with feel. Well, you know he's doing it for the greater good of humanity and for democracy. I have a question from the audience here it's shifting a little bit focus and it's from Karen hearty in the can Fitzgerald. So Karen asked, we've seen very concerning attempts to undermine public service broadcasting in the UK recently with bbc's funding placed in serious jeopardy. Do you states need to take specific steps to protect public service journalism. Yeah, I think so definitely I think it's, it's definitely something that, you know, has to be stood up for I think people need to realize the relevance and the importance of public service broadcasting at this time. And yeah, I mean, I mean, means and ways are being examined as to how, you know, the funding models can work and that's something that's being examined from any countries across Europe. And it's not, you know, it's probably too big of a question to get into right now. But I think definitely, you know, the sort of the public requirement and the importance of public service broadcasting has never been as relevant to the house now. Which is true but if you have a kind of you have a government that doesn't want public service broadcasting the way that it should be them we're in trouble, like I said, hungry Poland Slovenia, those countries they don't want independent journalism because that means that they have they come under a spotlight and their corruption, misuse of funds breaches of rule of law, you know their abuse against migrants against the LGBT community. That's found out for what it is. And so it's very difficult for the EU to intervene in that way because these countries are ones that will say that there's an overreach from Brussels. They use the same sort of them tactics and rhetoric that we see still in the UK Brussels is this you know boogeyman Brussels is only actually what the 27 member states make it to be every country has a deciding vote on the most fundamental issue so there's no such thing as Brussels per se. And the only way you can really intervene mean they have the like we mentioned that the Commission's directive on media freedom but it's, it's very hard to implement that stuff the only way you can maybe look at it is about is around the area of competition within the single market that there has to be enough competition and that countries can't allow monopolies exist or prevail and so this so there could be ways around around that but it's very very difficult. And even with this new regulation that we have in relation to rule of law that only deals with you funding rather than the media so it's, it's very difficult when you're coming up against the likes of those governments but maybe we're learning maybe we'll see at the end of this that we can't actually let that backsliding continue because look what happens when you ignore for so long which is what we did with Putin. I mean just isn't well in this this idea you know that well Brussels is what it is in terms of who's in power and across member states but around this Brussels the boogeyman idea you know national politicians do that whether they're in the authoritarian in liberal democracy or actually in a democracy and Mary how has it been for you you know when you're putting together European Parliament reports as opposed to when you're reporting on an EU council. There's sort of difference in terms of what you're hearing from MEPs in Strasbourg about a piece of EU legislation versus what an Irish politician might be saying about it at home like have you ever encountered a disconnect there. Well I think the, the whole question for MEPs Irish MEPs is just to get their position across and get policies that were there working on or get whatever they're doing across from the Irish media which is something that they tend to find very difficult. You know the European Parliament is supposed to be the sort of democratic counterbalance if you like to the other EU institutions. It's the only one in the sense that directly elected MEPs but I think people find it. Maybe sometimes a little bit, you know, inaccessible. There are reasons for that I mean the, the system of voting there is quite complicated you know they have these sort of voting blocks that people can't see let's say a debate happening on a particular policy and then a vote at the end of it. Sometimes, you know the debate happens and the vote is a little bit further down. Possibly the sort of accountability element isn't very easily accessible for the European Parliament so for example let's say at the start of the vaccine procurement process. I'm just thinking off the top of my head Billy, Billy Keller her MEP was raising a lot of questions about what the Commission was doing. And Billy Keller did stand up in the European Parliament for his one minute to speak, but Urs Le Van der Leyen had sort of gone out the door by the time he was speaking you know so it doesn't have in the sense of what national governments have the ability to stand up and question and you know Q&A session, nor does it have something like let's say for example the PAC you know there's no sort of accessible way that people can see the European Parliament doing its job of holding the other institutions accountable, and maybe pushing them in the direction of certain policy and things like that that is the biggest kind of question I think for MEPs. Because it you know often comes across as maybe a, you know, a very high quality debating chamber, whereas, you know, it obviously is an overlap more than that and it's you know something I try and do when I'm doing European Parliament reports is to sort of, you know, get across, you know, the Parliament's exact role in this bigger policy that's coming to pass, for example, you know, in the vaccine, the vaccine pass, the COVID pass system in the procurement process for the vaccines, it's like the, you know, the decision a few weeks ago just in the European part, you know, to cut the funding for countries in breach of rule of law. So, yeah, that's just something you try and get across the role of the people you directly elect to the European Parliament what they're trying to achieve for you out there. Thank you. And for me, we're coming up to two o'clock actually so am I just giving this was our International Women's Day event and the conversation progressed as it did given you know events in the context which is very valuable and thank you very much for the time we've covered on that might just come to some of our general quality questions and you mentioned there of course, Ursula von der Leyen first female President of the European Commission, the gender equal College of Commissures now for the first time ever to what extent and of course women leading the European Parliament and the ECB at the moment to what extent to the two of you have a sense that, you know, these figurehead politicians being women, you know, there being more and more women in these key decision making and positions across the EU. Does that have a greater impact on gender equality issues being to the for then policy based initiatives like the use gender equality action plan. And does it make a difference does it shift the dial. I think it has to because like even if you look at what's happening in Poland with relation to the abortion legislation. You know that that that the government there is trying is rolling black back and it's actually just been pretty horrific they've been, I think, for situations very, very similar to Savita Halopan ever in the last few months where women and have gone into hospital, hemorrhaging or miscarrying and cause sepsis because they they refuse to remove the pregnancy even though it was it was going to be a miscarriage that was going to be the case. And so the legislation there is completely rolled back when it comes to women's rights. And so, naturally, this is a women's issue and so women obviously if you're in a position of power, you're conscious of it, maybe if you've had a baby or you've had an abortion or whatever it is. So I think it's taken for granted. And then, you know, women who've come through the ranks of politics will have will have inevitably experienced sexism and have and found it difficult at some point and found just something that they probably felt along the way with something they need to change not all women of course, but so naturally it does. It's almost like that it should be taken for granted that it's something they tried to pursue along with everything else because it's equality anyway. And like even Roberta Metzola who's the president of the European Parliament now she has voted against emotion introduced before which would say that abortion was a human right, but she said, you know, her own position is what it is, but she will always she will forge the position of the European Parliament which was to support that motion so she understands the nuances around these things which I think is really great because she said it's been like me on marking when he voted in favour of repeating the 8th amendment. His own personal view is, you know, not pro-choice but understanding legislation was important. So when you have people like that in power it does eventually do that and Ursula von der Leyen being very, she was very sure about ensuring there was power, gender parity. She remembered her own thing. Do you remember about a year ago, sofa gate in Ankara when she was meeting Erdogan, the president of Turkey, and Charles Michel, the president of the European Council and her were both on a visit, and she was basically putting a sofa and then two men sat on big chairs and that was humiliating for her and she talked about it emotionally about humility and how she was left alone and she was. And it was actually quite despicable reflex by Charles Michel because if you look at the video, he he he realizes the situation and he steps forward with haste to ensure he gets a chair so he's not undermined without thinking I'll hold on a minute. This is going to make us a look stupid divide us and also we're going to undermine my, my female counterpart or whatever partner in in the commission. So, so yeah, and so I think on that basis, you know, everybody recognizes when those things happen that they can't happen any longer and we are like, even I always think about like five 10 years ago that in Ireland on the radio or the TV, it would be completely normal to see four men on a panel discussing often women's rights, you know, abortion or the eighth amendment, whatever it was, you would never see that anymore. In fact, it would just be laughable to see that on RTE. You know, they just no producer would do that was before that would no producer question it so I think things have changed now to, and you look back at the way things were and you go how did we allow that that's insane. So, I am kind of optimistic in that regard that those sort of ways are just intolerable. Yeah, and I think just shown a mentions that thinking back to when I was a younger journalist working in newspapers. Anytime I appeared in the panel I was usually just, you know, three men and then you know I was the only woman at the end. As shown is that that just doesn't happen anymore but I think it was really great to see just a couple of weeks ago the European Parliament the last sitting they had in Strasbourg, or Slavonderline, Roberta Mazzola and Christine Lagarde, three of them were there discussing the discussing the euro discussing inflation and they were the three big figureheads in the parliament so if nothing else, if the policies aren't even there that in itself is a really important image and the difference between covering the European Parliament and covering the doll for example is in the European Parliament report it's very normal to have, you know, a news report TV package or whatever it is a discussion that is more women than men, whereas when you're covering something in the doll, it's very, you know, often not the case and just in terms of policies I think we could look at for example, the difference between the doll and the Shannon at the moment there is far greater female representation in the Shannon and it's really coming across in terms of the policies that the Shannon is putting across you know they just have motions recently on reproductive leave on, you know, funding paid IVF treatment, all those sort of things coming out of the Shannon which didn't get you know pursued in the doll, you know and haven't so and then they're feeding into the discussions. So I think for that reason, the, you know, the greater participation of women the better but you know the European Parliament I think has around just 39% female representation is higher than the national, the average for the national parliament, but it's still obviously a long way off total parity. Yeah, unfortunately. We will get there. If Ireland could get to 39% soon enough that would already be a step forward. We'll take a long time. And before we finish up I have a question in here now from Francis Jacob, and which is how can the Irish media build on public interest and concern on the EU response to COVID and the Ukrainian crisis, and to ensure future interest in the debates in Ireland and on the future of Ireland's role in the EU. I suppose, you know, coming back to this issue of talking off about the EU outside of the moments of extreme crisis, and the use roles responding to extreme crisis. Mary, I think once people start paying more attention to decisions being taken at the level and how they impact so directly on their lives. So I think that the COVID path was a very sort of tangible thing that was, you know, decided at an EU level and this is, you know, a policy that you can see very apparent in your everyday life. And I think once people start seeing that, you know, in some ways, you know, it opens doors in some ways to looking at the EU differently. And I think, you know, beyond that it's only our job to report what's important and what's necessary, and it's up to institutions, you know, themselves to make themselves relevant and if something is relevant or important or matters to the public then it will be reported on. And so I might just adapt the question a little bit for you just in regards to, you know, with the European pan-European network, international network. And to what extent is there an appetite in each member state for news from other member states rather than just from Brussels. So, you know, thinking of the women you were talking about in Poland, you know, some of us have heard about that here but might not be on the sixth one, right? The same, you know, tragic murder of Ashley Murphy, you know, to what extent would that be reported on in other member states? You know, is there a solidarity between audiences? Is that developing? Is it growing? You know, how do you seek to get those stories that matter from one country to another country's audience? Well, Roberta Mazzola spoke about Ashley Murphy and her inauguration speech about women who didn't get the opportunity to strive but who were amazing in the life that they had. Her and other journalists who had been murdered, including Daphne Caroni-Galicia. And obviously Brexit features a lot in all other countries. And it's been remarkable how much interest there is in German media, in Spanish media, in French media about the Northern Irish border, the backstop. I mean, the all-island economy. It's incredible because I go to all of these briefings here, the Brexit briefings and the questions are just incredibly well informed. And they're just as any Irish journalist is informed, even a journalist in Belfast is informed. The level of detail they go into, whether it's SPS checks. I mean, so that exists a lot. I think more so actually in European countries than in Ireland, if I'm honest. We don't talk in Ireland about what's happening in Hungary and Poland. And we will do soon probably because we're a net contributor to the EU budget. So if there's misuse of funds in those countries, which it's why the acknowledge is particularly happening in Hungary, then that's Irish taxpayers money as well. And me and Mark has actually been quite strong about this of late before the Irish government really stepped outside this. But he said what Poland is doing is a slap in the face for all EU of the country. So that was a very strong statement to say to another member say on the day of new council meeting when he was going to meet the Prime Minister of Poland, you know, hours later after saying that. So I already just getting a bit more involved in it. And I think the other issue is that the EU has made some incredible unprecedented moves towards further fiscal integration because of the 750 billion Euro EU fund, which was totally unprecedented. That couldn't have happened. And, you know, 10 years ago when people wanted your bonds. So, and then with that, the EU procurement plan for COVID vaccines was successful. I'll be at a slow start that there's even there was even conversation by doing that for energy that the EU buys, you know, energy because of the other prices and not all member states wanted that. So, and so that so so these things are directly impacting people's lives and the COVID search is a great example as well because there was an EU wide program with then 50 odd countries adopted it because of the EU so it's showing the sort of so called Brussels effect. And that's why I think that more and more because that integration interdependence and the Irish media will have to start picking up as to what's happening in Brussels because it does. It's much more directly affecting it's not just, you know, Brussels bureaucrats coming up with these sort of other proposals they're actually much more tangible. Mary, do you want to come back on that before we wrap up. I think the past number of years has definitely seen, you know, a lot more coverage of you there is decisions being made, even the European Parliament. What's happening there I think is getting increased coverage, particularly through to COVID and through Brexit. And I think that's something that's only going to continue now. I was struck to see the special sitting of the European Parliament. What was what day was it. I went to earth live underline address the Parliament. You know, in response to what's happening in Ukraine and that was streamed live on the on our team is now was also streamed live on sky news and I was watching going wow like the European Parliament is live on on sky that's definitely something that you wouldn't really have seen ever before. It was definitely and to a British audience. So I think it's definitely something that people are what keeping a close closer eye on and I think that might remain for some time. And it's actually interesting that point Mary made there particularly on sky because the UK is obviously left the EU but if only there was that level of coverage and understanding before the Brexit referendum then people would have been more conscious of because I covered the UK in Bolton and Scotland and all and any person that was voting out, you know, to leave it had nothing directly to do with Brussels to do with, you know, local council decisions or you know, you know, really, really things that were just jumbled because of then of course we have this propaganda from Farage and so on. So actually I think it is important to critique the EU in the way in the ways that should be criticized and let's face it there are so many ways to be particularly at the start of the pandemic and so on. And then and then also to understand how it does impact your life and how you can positively shape it by sending the right people to Brussels, and or just having you during that your government is accountable for the decisions it makes at a Brussels level. Thanks very much now I'm going to draw this to a close because we've gone a little bit over but I want to thank you both very much for this discussion and it's been very wide ranging and and equally also then for the role you both play as shown as a just some up there in providing that impartial information and to to the viewers of both in Ireland and and across Europe. So thank you very much for joining us this recording will be available on our YouTube channel. And with that will close today's event and wishing you all a very happy International Women's Day tomorrow. Thanks. Thank you.