 We have a very special guest today on One Take, he's a filmmaker and someone who has worn many hats in the filmmaking world. He wrote Pandorum and more recently he wrote and directed Infinity Chamber, a movie I highly recommend. It's a fantastic psychological sci-fi thriller and people who watch this channel know that I love sci-fi, especially when it can successfully blend a sense of discovery with some thought provoking questions and an emotional human core at the center of it. Writer-director Travis Malloy did exactly that with Infinity Chamber and I'm excited to talk with him today, so Travis, welcome to the show. Thanks, thanks so much, thanks for having me, I appreciate it. Definitely, and I feel like most conversations now kind of start a similar way where you have to ask how are you, how are you doing with COVID, the lockdowns, have you found a way to maintain your sanity in some kind of a schedule? Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate it. Well, being a writer mainly at my core doesn't change my world too much, I spend a lot of time in a dark space sitting in front of a computer, so being isolated hasn't changed that much. So trying to get as much work done as I can and we're really trying to figure out how to approach kind of this new era of filmmaking, how we can do it safely. So we're all kind of scrambling to try to figure that out. And actually speaking of writing, that was one of the things I wanted to ask you about. I was reading one of your interviews about Pandorum where you talked about how you took a sort of unorthodox approach to writing that, where it sounded like you didn't have too much of an outline, you kind of sat down and went wherever the story took you. And I'm curious, that was a couple years back, has your writing process, do you have a preferred method for writing or does it sort of differ from one project to the next? It does differ, but that did change the whole way that I write. Before, long story short, I was working as a writer in L.A. and working on lots of projects, but I was having a tough time and I always did the traditional route where I would do an outline and break it down. And then just kind of out of irritation, I said, you know what? I'm just going to try this a different method. I'm going to try to write a movie as a viewer. As it goes along, I have no idea where it's going. And it's kind of a dangerous way to write because you can easily paint yourself into a corner. But it worked. And that's now, basically that's what I do now. The problem, it's great because you can come up with some really incredible things, but the downside is I have dozens and dozens of scripts that stopped halfway through because I ran into a wall and I didn't know how to finish them. But yeah, I considered a very organic approach, it's kind of a dangerous way to write, but I like to just jump in as if I'm watching the movie and just see where it goes. It actually reminds me, I might be misattributing this quote, but it might have been Jim Davis, the author of Garfield. And I think he talked about the fact that at a certain point, he gets to know his characters so well that he'll sort of just sit there and watch it play out. And then when something funny happens, he writes it down. So it sounds like you have sort of a similar approach. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's really about finding the voice for the characters and setting up a scenario and then it does, there's this weird feeling where they kind of take over where you're just watching from the sidelines. So it's kind of rare when that happens, but when it does, it's really magical, it's really great. Yeah, and I wanted to ask, so I mentioned in the introduction, I said you wore a lot of hats in the filmmaking world. And I think I read in an interview about how you got started. You did a lot of different things. I would love to hear a little bit about your story of just how you got into the world of filmmaking. What drew you in and how did you get started? Oh, right on. Well, you know, I grew up in Minnesota. I went to college in Minneapolis and I worked for Prince out at Paisley Park. And I really just kind of dove into the industry. I tried to do all any department working with art department or as a PA, as a camera and stunts and special effects. And I basically just tried to gobble up everything that I could find. My first film, I did an indie film with my friends, very low budget. I came out to Hollywood. We sold the film and then I met a big agent and he actually, I wanted to be a director and he said, no, I'm not going to represent you as a director. I'll represent you as a writer. And I was like, well, I'm not really a writer. That's, you know, I didn't consider that path. But he said, no, that's I like what you I like what you've written. So he kind of pulled me in that direction. So that kind of became my career and found out I had a little bit of a knack for it. So I kind of fell into it by accident. Gotcha. And you actually mentioned something I wanted to ask about just when I was looking at your credits. I saw those stunt credits. What kind of stunt work were you doing early on? Yeah, that was that. That was just kind of young and dumb, fun times. I work. It was a career I realized I did not want to do, you know, once I got it, it was it was fun when you're young and doing stunts and car gags and high falls and fire stuff and all it was just it was a lot of fun to do. But I quickly realized I wanted to be behind camera that that was a rough. That was a rough way to make a living, but but but it was fun. I kind of scratched that edge, did some like bridge jumps and just kind of foolish stuff when I was younger. But I right, right. I quickly veered out of that into the more creative into the writing and the directing aspect. Right. You'd rather be the guy behind the camera watching somebody jump off a cliff than being the one doing the jumping. Yeah, exactly. But I got it out of my system, you know, right, right. I did enough to have some fun, but but then got into different aspects of production. And is directing still the part you enjoy most? So, no, you've you've done a lot of writing, it sounds like. So have you grown to appreciate the writing more than you did, kind of at the beginning of it all? Yeah, you know, I mean, it's it's definitely actually, you know, writing is is really the thing that I'm drawn to just because directing is very rare. It's very, you know, it's a very it's a very special gift to get the opportunity to direct a film. It's a really tough industry. So that comes along every once in a while in a blue moon, you know. So the writing I'm really drawn to is trying to tell a compelling story, trying to work within interesting guidelines. You know, a lot of time I compare like novelists to screenwriters. I can't imagine writing a novel because you can go anywhere. You can express any thought, et cetera, et cetera. But screenwriting is very restrictive. You have to tell a compelling. You can't convey thought. You have to just show a blueprint of what you see and what people say. And it has to be within, you know, one hundred and five pages and a three X structure and stuff like that. So I really like being forced to try to tell something compelling under those restrictions. I find it I find it an interesting challenge. And now in this era of doing very self-contained movies, low budget films that are easy to do with low number of characters, I really like that challenge of trying to to do something with very little resources. Right. And I think that's a really good segue to talk about Infinity Chamber. I was reading a little bit about you said something about how you can wait until you have the right budget or you can wait for the opportunity to direct. But you sort of decided I'm going to do it. I'm going to make Infinity Chamber no matter what it takes. And I would love just for the jolt of motivation I'll get from hearing it and other people will get. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you decided it's time to make this movie and how you got it done. Yeah, no, that's that's that's that's an interesting part of it. I mean, Hollywood filmmaking is very I mean, it's a big endeavor. You put your life on hold. You put a lot of energy into something like that. So it's really easy to procrastinate. It's like, oh, when the kids are out of school or when I have more money or in the summer or whatever. So it's so easy to procrastinate. So I and I knew that. So I was like, all right, I'm going to force my own hand. And I decided I rented a little storage space and I started building the set for the movie. And I didn't even have a finished script. But I just knew that if I started and I was spending money to rent this space and putting this energy into the project, I'd be a fool not to make the movie after a few months or six months or whatever. So that was I just made that decision and kind of took that leap of faith. It took me a year to build that set. And I was writing the script while I was doing it. And it was really interesting to be in that place, building it myself and then thinking about that story and carving it out to make it fit what I was doing. So anyway, that's that is how it worked. And it was kind of like stone soup because people were coming to see what I was doing and thinking I was foolish. Like, well, what are you doing? You know, wait a minute, what are you doing? Because normally the traditional way is, all right, here's my script, here's my project. Now I have to go present it to financiers and go through the traditional route. But I kind of reverse engineered it. It's like, no, I'm just I'm just going to start making a movie. I had no money, I had no cast and no crew, whatever. But slowly people were very interested in what I was doing. And by the time I finished building the set, I had the financing and the crew and the cast and we were off off to the races. It's got to be pretty helpful, too, to be able to work on the script while sitting in the physical space where the movie is actually going to take place. That's got to be a unique experience. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because in Infinity Chamber, I believe he spends two years in the cell in the story. And I realize that I spent about as much time in that space as the character did in the movie. So yeah, it was it was very, very surreal experience. Yeah, that's great. That's great. It's probably unfortunately a method of writing. It's probably not something you can replicate over and over. You know, James Cameron creating Pandora for Avatar. Live there for a while and then write the script. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was it was it was, you know, I mean, not to get nutty, but it felt like I earned the movie because I built that place myself. I mean, it was I had to make creative choices and the aesthetic and all that kind of stuff. And I like I dumpster dived and I looked and tried to find all these items. And but by the time the set was complete and we were filming, I really felt like I earned it. That's not like, you know, we use some money and we hired some crew to go build it. And then, all right, let's roll in and make this movie. I just felt I felt part of that place. Yeah. And it definitely showed on screen. And you know, you refer to the fact that there's the movie mostly takes place in the one location. But it doesn't feel like a small movie. It feels like there's a whole world around it. You there's there's references to this sort of dystopian government that's taken over and it sort of feels like a bigger movie, a bigger world that we're seeing this kind of slice of. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I knew that that was the challenge. One of the was OK, how to tell it an interesting story under those guidelines. But I knew I needed to break out of that room. So we wouldn't be that class republic. So to me, it's a very, very small movie in disguise. I was able to write the story that, you know, with the device that took him to the flashback to his apartment, to the coffee shop, the escape sequences, like I could do these grand breaths of fresh air to get out of the to break out of that room. But really, when you break it down, majority of that movie is one guy in this small room talking to a device. So it was my way of disguising, trying to make a bigger movie out of something very small. And is that how the. So one thing I wanted to ask about was the the mechanic you just mentioned of him sort of reliving that memory and those memories over and over. You know, I know you talked a little bit in some other interviews about the inception of the idea for this movie, where I think you read an article about automation coming into prisons. But I'm curious, when did the mechanic of the diving back into his memories and reliving them, where when did that idea come to you as part of the story? You know, it was interesting. It was it was kind of twofold. One, one, I like the Groundhog Day aspect of it because I could get a lot of bang for my buck. Shooting the same sequence over and over and over gave me a lot of footage to work with without moving locations. And she I'm taking down tips. Yeah, it was a little bit of a cheat. Like, wow, if I'm doing a Groundhog Day thing, then him getting up in the morning and going to the coffee shop. I'm using that sequence over and over and over. Well, I don't have to do a new set of new cameras set up and I have to do a location change so I can get a lot out of that. That was one just technical aspect. But the other aspect was him struggling with this very interesting dilemma of being stuck in his own his own slice of memory. I just thought that was that would be a very easy dilemma to pull off, technically, but an interesting psychological battle. Right. Yeah. And I thought it worked really well. It's as the movie starts, no part of me expected that a sort of love story would play into this at all. But it kind of sneaks up on you. And that's what I was trying to say earlier in my favorite sometimes with sci-fi. It's easy to get stuck on the concept and focused on that. But the best movies are the ones that have that emotional core. So you're actually invested in the character. And I thought it worked really well here. Oh, thanks, man. Thanks. I really appreciate it. You know, I mean, which, you know, it's just we tried our best to do something, you know, I always try to do something that's unique, try to do something that resonates with people. It was interesting because it started out as primarily an escape movie. It's a guy trying to get out of a room. And that really where it starts. But then as we're as we were, even while we were shooting the film, then these other elements started to seep in. Like that's really interesting, this relationship that he has. And and I always thought it was sometimes you don't know the theme of your movie. Even when you're going in, it's great if you do. But I didn't really know the theme of this movie. And as soon as he started communicating, as soon as he started talking to Howard and and we did the scenes with between him and Gabby, I was like, this is really a movie about relationships, about relationship, artificial relationships. Dealing with and and how we communicate with technology, with with texting and emailing and skyping and all this kind of stuff that our relationships are very filtered through technology. So I was like, he has these two artificial relationships that are very similar, but how he deals with them. He deals with them differently in order to get out of this limit. So anyway, it was it was an interesting. It was kind of an aha moment while shooting, like, wait a minute, there's something there's something more going on here than just an escape. Right. And that that theme was something I was thinking about after I watched the movie, because at least one of the takeaways that I that I took when after I watched it is Howard is someone that he's a purely artificial intelligence, gets kind of close to forming a real relationship with Frank. But at a certain point, you see the limitations of it when he starts to repeat over and over. Yes, Frank. Yes, Frank. But then you have this slightly more real relationship. It's still somebody that's in his own mind. Gabby filtered kind of through the machine. And that's where the relationship feels a little bit more real, almost to the point where if Frank had decided I'm going to stay here and just live inside my own mind, you could almost understand that decision. And I can relate both of those into into our world. It's like you mentioned before, I have those friends who will constantly be looking at their phone texting while I'm trying to have a conversation with them. And that feels like the Gabby side of it. They're talking to this person who's real, but filtered through technology. The Howard of it all feels like we haven't quite gotten there yet, where there is a machine that can completely fulfill your sort of social needs. But I have a feeling we'll get there eventually. I think you're right. Yeah, I think you're right. It was, you know, the other thing that was interesting was originally Gabby, she was trying to get the information out of him. And it was weird. It was interesting because while filming, I changed my mind. I was like, there's something I really like this relationship. And she really kind of serves us as alter ego. It's really in a way for him to talk to himself the way she challenges his decisions and questions him to me. It's more of an alter ego. But anyway, I just thought there was something really there was really something sweet about this this relationship. So I took out the part of her being a villain because it and I realized there was really no villain in the movie. The villain is is a little more obscure. It's the it's the the government. It's the the system, the, you know, that kind of thing. But I was like, I don't know, am I taking a chance? If I don't really have a clear cut antagonist to the story. But it was just the decision we made to try to go with it and see if it worked. But I just liked it a lot better that neither Howard or Gabby were villains in the story. They both wanted the same thing for him. Yeah, I think that I think that worked, especially if you think about, you know, I know some of this is me just adding my own thoughts to it. But if I draw a parallel to the real world, if computers, if you had the skynet of computers taking over one day, it might feel like there was no villain. You know, every human involved had the best intentions and the system kind of took on a life of its own. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. I wanted to ask about Howard because he quickly became one of my favorite artificial intelligence companions, just the perfect balance of being a little bit human, a little bit computer, had a slight little bit of sarcasm. So how did you get the Howard personality right? Did you know it going in? Did you kind of feel it out as you went along? That was tough. It was tough because you know, we're modeled after great artificial characters, you know, from Hal to, you know, all these different computerized personalities. So I wanted to play homage to that, but how to make him a little bit differently if he sounded too robotic or if he sounded too human. So it was it was interesting trying to find that balance. And honestly, I didn't know his voice when we shot it. I didn't know who I was going to use as the voice. And we had Jesse Arrow on set so that Chris would have somebody to to read off. But I honestly didn't consider Jesse as the voice of Howard. And then in post, I had Jesse's recording. So I was using him to edit the film. And then we were auditioning voice actors and I listened to dozens and dozens of people. But I was so used to Jesse's voice, like that's that's how. So anyway, little did I know Howard was sitting next to me the whole time. But I thought that he there was something he did in his delivery that was kind of ominously artificial, but then moments of personality. I thought that was that added a nice charm, but it was also really creepy. Yeah, definitely. It added some humor at times to the movie that I wouldn't have expected going in. I watched it without my family and there were a few kind of laugh out loud moments with Howard that I thought worked really well. That's awesome. That's awesome. I had kind of one more question I wanted to ask you about Infinity Chamber, which is any time a movie ends with some ambiguity, it's always tempting to ask for the definitive explanation, which I won't do. But I was just curious how you decided to end on a slightly more open ended note where it could be read optimistically. It could be read pessimistically is kind of multiple reads. Did you know going in it was going to end on a little bit of an ambiguous note or was this again, something you felt out as you were making the movie? Yeah, no, for sure. It was it was definitely intentional. And I'll I'll be completely honest with you because that the people have asked me about that before. This and it's funny because it sounds like such a bullshit answer. But I wanted there to be two possible endings for the film and I wanted the audience to decide for themselves. I I I personally have a thought. I mean, there's really it's really kind of come down to two different scenarios that he actually did get out. He actually got that the society had changed and that he actually found the real girl who was that piece of memory that he'd been living with inside the cell. The other version is that a much darker one that he accepted his fate that he was never going to get out. He gave up the information to the computer that it was looking for and it rewarded him with this existence still inside the cell. But he was able to embrace this artificial character that he created. So there's two versions. But it was interesting because when I wrote what I wrote the script, I had two different groups of friends in my life. I have friends that love darker, more ominous type endings. And then I have friends and family that really don't like that. And they like the, you know, something a little more feel good. So I really was trying. I was kind of being greedy and I was trying to appease both groups. And I really think that the movie is. Belongs to the audience. You know, how you react, how you feel about a movie belongs to belongs to you. So it's interesting when I watch the movie. I, whether I'm in a good mood or whatever, sometimes I'll go with that ending. Like that's yeah, that's that's how that works for me. And then sometimes like, no, I think this is the way it is. It's so it's I just tried to do something where the audience could have something to discuss at the end and decide for themselves what kind of ending they wanted. It's funny because when I look at some online discussions about the ending, I don't see a lot of here's what I think. I see a lot of definitive, you know, this is what happened because you can see these clues or this is what happened. So I think I thread the needle pretty well where you can you can walk away pretty confident in your read of that ending. And I was thinking about my read on it. And I think when I was younger, I probably would have been part of a group of friends you mentioned that are more pessimistic. I would have read it that way. Now I think I'm more optimistic. So I read it as a very positive ending. And I'm going to choose to live with that that interpretation. There you go. Well, and then my argument is that actually there is a positive side to both even that whether it's about finding inner peace, whether it's finding, you know, being able to to live your life on your own terms. So, you know, there's there's there's room to move there. But but yeah, I'm with you. It's been it's actually I never expected. I mean, this is a very little movie. We did I did not expect the reaction that it would have. I never expected and not the fans to discuss very heated debates about certain elements of it. So that's just been absolutely wonderful. You know, you try your best. Movies are a long shot. Some some are quickly easily forgotten and never seen by the audience. But so I was really lucky to have to get get some that the film found its audience and found its path in a certain way. So that was that was awesome. And that's what makes my day as I is getting emails from people all around the world that just want to talk about the movie. I mean, that's you can't ask for anything better than that. That's awesome. And it's just awesome to hear how the movie came together. And it sounds like it's such a combination of just purely what was in your imagination. Then as you start to make it, some of it is happenstance, what your limitations are, what you have to work with. Some of it is ideas that organically grew out of it. So it's just so cool to hear all those elements came together to form this awesome movie that hopefully we can get. I'll feel very happy with how this goes. If we can get in the comments on YouTube, it's a good argument going about that ending in a good heated debate. Yeah, that'd be great. Absolutely. Yeah, it was, you know what? It was it was a lot of people really gave sacrifice a lot. A lot of people worked really hard. And we were all really proud of what we accomplished. It's, you know, under a very limited budget, really kind of a garage band style film. So it was it was a really great journey. That's for sure. I'm really proud of it. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing it with us. And I think one more question I wanted to ask is, as you go, hey, you're sorry about that. No, I thought that was me. I was like, oh, that is just like we talked about technology is already turning on us. There you go. There you go. All right, well, I pretty much just wanted to wrap up and I just wanted to thank you for coming on and just sharing that whole journey with us. Like I said, just hearing how the movie all came together is insightful and it's just motivating for me. And I think for others listening, it'll just be motivation to do that movie we've wanted to do or whatever we've had in mind for all for so long. And just like you said, stop procrastinating. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, it's really it's really exciting time to be a filmmaker. I mean, there's there's just it hasn't been a time like this. The technology has gotten inexpensive and has gotten really powerful. I mean, you can make a movie with what you can put into a backpack. So it really it's about content. And I there's just going to be some really interesting, especially now, unfortunately, with the pandemic, there the that big where you know, a hundred million dollar projects, I think are going to be limited. It's going to come down to these smaller stories that have to go inward with story instead of outward with spectacle. So I just I'm really excited about the independent film world right now, and I just think there's going to be some great stuff. And it's a great time for for people who want to go make that make that movie. Now now's a great time to do it. So awesome. And actually, speaking of which, do you have any anything in the works that you're ready to talk about? Anything you can give us a little preview of what's next? You know, yeah, definitely. It's it's it's tough trying to figure out with the pandemic how we're going to proceed. But I definitely have I have a handful of projects that I'm pursuing. So we're just still trying to figure out which one makes sense and how we can do those things. But yeah, I can't nothing. Nothing I can give you specific about because I haven't really decided on which project we're going to pursue. But I've got a few scripts out there with other directors that are putting projects together and then some of my own little passion project. So definitely trying to get into production sometime in the next few months. Awesome. Well, I'm very excited to see whatever you do next. And maybe when the time is right, we can have you on again to talk about when your next projects. Absolutely, man, anytime. I appreciate it. It's great talking about the project. So thanks. Thanks a lot, man. I appreciate it. Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on and for anyone that's watched. If you haven't done it already, please check out Infinity Chamber. I personally watched it on Amazon Prime. So if you're a subscriber, then you have no excuse. You can go watch it right now. So thank you again for joining Travis and hopefully we'll talk again soon. Excellent, man. Thanks so much.