 Welcome to Jenkins documentation office hours. It's the 23rd of December reminder that we abide by the Jenkins code of conduct. So topics that I had on the agenda, news, Sheikot Africa contributon, modernizing a plugin, and then I just added an action item. What other topics do we need to add? Meg, I know you had submitted a question in the docs office or in the docs getter channel for a particular poll request. Should we take some time here and managing Jenkins? Sure. Okay. So there's the poll request, great. Elizabeth, are there any topics that you wanted to bring? Okay, great. All right. None for now. Okay, super. Thank you. So by way of news, Jenkins on Java 8 deprecation poll requests are in progress. Needs a Jenkins enhancement proposal that plans the transition. And that transition includes documentation updates, compatibility, security, transitions on platform installers like Deb, RPM, MSI, et cetera. And lots of work to do there. And would it be useful to have a rough schedule to understand, I mean, when I first heard this, it's like, oh my God, we've got to scurry and get this done immediately, but this is beginning, right? It's not deprecated yet. This is, oh right, this is far from deprecated. These are still conversations about how it should work. So one of the challenges is there are some alternatives that, okay, my employer has large enterprise customers. So my employer, Cloudbees, has large enterprise customers. And those enterprise customers are relatively slower to move versions than a typical Jenkins user. And typical Jenkins users are already relatively slow. So alternatives that were offered were thinking, okay, so alternatives that were offered were things like, should we continue a parallel, you know, should we make something a long, longer lived release as the last version to support Java 8? You know, give it six months or 12 months as a viable thing. Or should we delay the current draft, the current rough proposal was from Tim Jacome, June 2021 as the transition LTS. So make it go there. And with that transition, that wouldn't mean we've got just a little over six months to get people ready for this. And you mean 2022? Oh, yes. Thank you, 2022. Yes, I do. Good correction. Yeah. And so for me, that's feeling too fast. And I've got to express that in the mailing list. To say, hey, I think we've got, we need to give ourselves more time. We used, we used 12 months or more for the Java 7 to Java 8 transition. And I would expect that this transition needs, needs a fair amount of forewarning for users and preparation of documentation, code changes, getting ready, et cetera. So Mark discuss in the mailing list and start a plan after the new year. So I'm, I'm not expecting to start work on the Jenkins enhancement. It'll use a Jenkins enhancement proposal to describe the plan, just like we did for the Docker image change. And the Docker image change plan was very helpful because it exposed all sorts of surprises while we did the planning. Oh, didn't think of that. Oh, didn't think of that. So good, healthy thing to do. Any other questions on Java 8 deprecation? Okay. Next topic then was Linux transition from system five to in it to system D. So this is the inside the dab. And RPM files. We use system five, the old style in it system to manage start up and shut down and restart. And all the, all the Linux distributions we support now use system D and have used it for probably three to five years. We've got some bugs in the bugs, a bug on Debian 11, that the, that would be fixed by switching to system D. And then we've got a proposal from, from Jesse Glick to simplify the code dramatically, simplify the restart process to make it even better. So, so there are, there are some positive things there, but development is complicated in that area. And testing is really complicated. And people are, it gets terribly ferociously grumpy if we break their installer. So lots of, lots of things to do there. What about somewhere, don't we have a doc section about messing with boot parameters and this is that impacted. I don't know how long since that's been touched. Yeah, I think that would probably also be affected because system D install docs will certainly be affected because system D thinks differently about how you set configurations. And somehow or other we've got to decide, do we carry, do we try to translate the old to new. And after translating it, is it stored in system D now. All sorts of things like that, right? So I configured which port does my Jenkins use for HTTP communication. And that's in a configuration file, but the system, the system D config would be in a different location. And I certainly don't want to have to redo that on the upgrade from one version to the next, because most users won't read won't redo it until they find it broken and are very angry that it broke. Well, all this stuff about. I, the different, and never mind, I'll find that out later. And it's planned. All right, so that's on the news stuff. Next topic was review the managing Jenkins edition for Meg. Okay, so, so this one. I started to adjust the order of the files in there and then I started to have this giving. Okay, so this is just an adjustment of order. You didn't delete them. I see it there. Okay. My mistake. It's, you just move them down. Good. Okay. Because we can't delete them or even move them to the other section until we have a redirect. Right. Okay, good. All right. And we need to see if the structure even works. Cause I saw some things that are in other sections that kind of look okay there. Okay. Now I'm not sure what you mean. So let's take a look at. You're referring to this documentation here. So managing Jenkins. And we'll look at the PR. You see the things that I linked to. I wrote this to go through the entire managed Jenkins screen. Right. A couple of the links are going to files outside of the managed Jenkins section. Oh, oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, so maybe that those files be wrong. Guess where they are. Why is my mouse not clicking? Okay. So. Okay. So first step, we don't need. Good enough that it is not a work in progress. So we don't need the. That dialogue. Oh, except I should actually just propose the change. Here we go. Change. All right. Then. The managed Jenkins about page shows. Jenkins on your system. Okay. And so is it common to end a list item with a full stop? I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure what the convention is. It's been back and forth and I started doing it. Okay. Yeah. I've, I've been using the convention of not doing it, but I don't have a strong opinion. I don't have a strong opinion. I'm not writing standard for it. I'm fine with either. No, there's constant. I spent half my life. I swear going through all documents and adding or removing the full stops. Got it. Okay. So we leave that as uncommented for now. All right. So. Okay. And this is now the intro page. The page that replaces this thing. Right. Okay. Good. Good. Agreed. Okay. Okay. So. Monitors that alert. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes. You're describing administrative monitors. Thank you. My, my thought and. I'd love to hear your input on this. Is that if I were new to this, that's a big screen. And I would like to hope I would like to have a document that walks through that screen and tells me what I'm seeing. Right. And I think that's a sensible idea that, Hey, here's a picture and we're going to zoom in on pieces of the picture because you're already highlighting. Look, here's this thing right here. So let's go. To not this one. Let's go to this one. Jenkins. Here. No administrative monitor. Oh, I know how to get an administrative monitor up there. We'll do this. There, there's an administrative monitor. Right. That's top right hand corner thing says. Okay. And the built in node can be a security issue. You should set the number of executors to zero. See the documentation. And there it is. Good. Okay. Now. Now in general, those monitors don't necessarily include links to the change log. I think the one, don't the ones I'm managed Jenkins to. Not as well. So I'm on. Let's go. Here I am. Okay. So here I am. And that administrative monitor will still be visible. I'm going to go bring it back. So just a moment while I bring it back. Okay. It's now going to be back for 15 seconds. Even when I'm in managed. Oh no. Interesting. Yeah. So here's one. This one. Yeah. This one shows. Okay. Here is, here is the warning. Okay. I'm going to go bring it back. Okay. Okay. So let me. So may include useful links such as two other documentation. Right. Most of the ones that I have seen have been your, you need to. Upgrade or there's, you know, there's a security. Issue or something like that. And those do to change logs, but. Yeah. So for me, it's something like that. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to go bring it back. And then I'm going to send links to additional information about the issue. Because in my case, I was doing something. I'm doing something that's not recommended. Don't run. Don't run. With non-zero executor count on your controller. They are not getting one for that. Okay. Good. All right. Okay. Inline help is available on most managed Jenkins pages. So for example. Let's see if we look at. Global tool configuration. That's a good one. It comes up pretty quickly. And over here, there's a question mark. That's tells me, Hey, what to do. And here there's a question mark and here. And the question marks are steadily getting better in terms of their consistency where they appear, et cetera. So one step at a time. Yeah. Good. Okay. Okay. Now this looks duplicated. Yes, it does. Okay. And that didn't help me at all. Let's see. I do reread and reread so much. You don't see stuff anymore. Well, and that's why we do reviews, right? This is exactly the purpose of a review. So that's great. Okay. Okay. Good. Got it. All right. This is one I'd like your opinion on whether I still, I'm a trained historian. So I hate to lose the history. I did hear it down a little bit. Okay. Yes. But I think people do show up that they used it five years ago. And it's like, whoa, everything looks different. Uh huh. Right. I just stuck it in a note. Yeah. So here you're describing, okay, we did tables to divs. And that's a, that's a real positive. And then we did improvements to the, the. With grouping. Do we want to, do we want to link from here? Oh, you've got it. You've already got it. So, well, okay. So we've got a link for this one. We don't have a link for the. Um, the, let me see if we can get one because I like that you've, you put the four more information and. This thing in particular highlights, hey, we're doing some major stuff. Then there was a blog post, I think on. Uh, the change to the. To, to what was it to manage. Oh, to the configuration page. No, it's not. Let's see. Manage Jenkins overhaul of manage Jenkins page. Yes, there is. Is this it? No, no, this is not it. Nope. That blog had it, but I, maybe I. No, so that's this, this one is from 2018. So it's too old. Okay. So manage Jenkins. Maybe there's a different page. No. Okay. So. Yeah. If, if I find it separately, we can, we can always add it later. Okay. Great. So. Now this one, this is a generic link to the, the stable change log. And it will always show the most current one. I'm not sure that they'll benefit from that. That's not going to help anymore. Is it? Well, if we want to show them the change log, what we need to do is link to the specific change log version. And, and there it might be that we want to link to. 2.277.1 for instance. Which is where that was first introduced. This thing right here. And it talks about major changes in weekly. Extreme, et cetera. So, and I like including that. It's just, if you're okay with it, let's, let's change it to instead be. If somebody really wants to know exactly what changed the change. Exactly. Most sane readers will skip it, but. Yeah. And, and well, they should, right? There's no. If you don't need the information. So use a, okay. Yeah. But actually for us, it's nice going for frankly. Five years from now, somebody wants to know exactly when did we do that? Right. And, and that's a, that's just a good highlight. That's a healthy thing to highlight. Now one more change while we're here. We use, we tend to prefer to take off the WWW stuff. Because then we can do site development. And then we're taking us away from it. Right. Okay. So. System configuration group. All right. System configuration. Global tool configuration manage plugins. Yes. Good. Okay. And, oh yes. And you said it here. Very good. Yes. Okay. But we show it here because we intend that everybody should have this thing. Right. We would prefer that every, every Jenkins installation has configurations code. Good. Okay. So now back. And I suspect before too long we will. Okay. And the docs will still work. Excellent. Good. Okay. So now if I look at, so you've described system configuration here. And then now the next is security. Okay. Good. All right. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah, there's one that now that's not in the credentials is not in this section. And I think that's maybe a good thing. When you say credentials is not in this section. I mean the, the, the. Oh, right, right. We are linking to someplace that's not. Immediately in this page. That's for me, that's fine. I think that's very reasonable. Yeah. At one point I was thinking we'd move all that other stuff into this, but it's like, no, that doesn't make sense credentials. I'm not. A little bit of a question whether it belongs right where it is, but doesn't necessarily belong here. Right. Make the, I agree. Status information. Yeah, there it is. Good. Okay. Okay. Now. Is this usage actually included? Good. It's not. Okay. I feel better. Oh, it's not. Okay. No, this, and this one's actually, there's at least one of the dis usage plugins is a dangerous thing performance wise. Okay. Was it there a little while ago? May have been. Don't know. Yes. So when I, when I need to know disk usage, I will commonly go. To this location. And look at all the, the disk usage report that comes from the, the disk usage report. And then look at the, the, the list of nodes, the agents. Right. So, I may have been cribbing some existing docs and not comparing them against what we had. Well, and certainly the, I believe there are products that ship with a disc usage, disc usage thing installed by default. Right. And we really need a whole guide on what to look at in your system to see what's going on. And that's not here. Right. Exactly. So system log is definitely there. So in my case I've got monitoring enabled system information system log. Good. Okay. And now you didn't show. I don't know if mine is because if load statistics I thought this was a standard part but you didn't see it on yours. I'm not running a Jenkins right now and I need to get one running. Well, so I'm going to I'm going to go ahead and do the same check on a Jenkins instance that is well managed. Yeah, okay, so load statistics is there. So that would need to be in in and cloud statistics. Well cloud statistics only applies if I recall correctly if you've got a cloud provider installed. So for instance on my Jenkins, I don't have a cloud provider installed. And so I don't have any cloud statistics. Is this one that should be included though the way that cask is. Yeah, probably should good point because a fair number it's not, it's not a corner case a lot of people are going to have it right. Probably if you're hosting on a cloud and using agents that are ephemeral, you are likely to have exactly that so let me make a note here that alright so it was need to add the cloud statistics, and the load statistics. I'm not going to go into the explanations pages, because at least for me I find there are times when this load statistics things can think and give a real hint, like on here on Jenkins that I owe it's fascinating to see how the load looks. There are times when we will spike 90 executors running concurrently. Interesting. Okay, so troubleshooting manage old data and this one does this one appear. Now that one only appeared if it was needed that it was. Oh no no it is always there my mistake okay. Great. Alright. This one has a begging for. Yeah that's a brilliant short description there you could write books about this thing. How Jenkins intelligently handles. The arrival of data or detecting detecting data that it doesn't know what to process how to process it. And it puts it in this manage old data thing and it's it's really quite cool. Okay, so screens for common tools and actions. Okay, now back to the. Oh, right. Yes. Okay, good configuration from disk CLI. Oh, okay, and we've got dock on CLI dash a doc. That name surprises me. Just a minute. I need to do a quick check to see if I, if I believe that pushing on my stack. Okay, so that that one is your PR. Oh, looks like we lost Meg. There it is okay good. I understand what the changes that's needed. Okay, so I've been gone a little bit my think my internet's being flaky but I think I'm back. Yeah so well and all I was gone. All I was doing was change the fixing a reference. Okay. So the reference is listing. CLI dash dash a doc and it's actually just CLI. Okay. But now, and that was should link to a file inside managing and we'll run this and double check it just to be sure. Okay, so a doc suffix. Okay, good. I know. There I wasn't sure. Are you can you hear me. Yes, sure. Okay. We don't have a section for prepare for shutdown and shut that and it's like, I don't know that I want a whole doc page about that. But I'm not so right now that has no link. Yeah, okay. Now, now you mentioned. Okay, so well, so say that again, help me help me save one more time. The original thing was that this would go all of these sections and we'd have a link for me to one on where to read more. I don't have a link for prepare for shutdown. Oh, I see, right. Got it. I don't know that I want to write up a page that's how you prepare for shutdown. Yeah, that's that for me, if we don't have a separate page yet we leave it exactly as you did it. But I could write up a, I mean, I, there were a couple of them that we didn't have a page for and I did something quickly and threw it in here. I don't know that I want a page for that. And I don't see any harm to that. Okay. Those those two columns on the end. What's in that bold turned it into a turn it into a definition term and definition terms if I remember correctly are bolded. Okay. So now this one, these, the things that you listed in the added in the, the uncategorized group are actually now categorized I'm really proud of that. It's a big win they are now system information system information, let's use system information so that load statistics is in system information, and let's go to mine that has more and monitoring of agents and master, but that one comes from a separate plugin so I'm not sure that, and I don't know how popular maybe we should look actually that's that's checked to see just how popular it is job. So, 20,000 installation so roughly 10% of the install base is using it. So that one may that, how do you want to handle what do you recommend for handling optional. I'm not sure. Okay. I'm, I mean part of me it's back to need a good chapter about how you monitor the whole system, and where we might mention some other plugin you know we there's no play to go and say, I've got to know what's going on what other plug it should I be pulling in here. Okay, so, so I'm going to propose a change here of uncategorized is used for those plugins that have not yet defined declared the category of their page. And so, let's see so this one is. So this is describing the uncategorized group and it's for plugins that have not yet declared the category of the page. And I hope that that content would actually empty because every plugin should declare its category, right, but plugins revise at their own, at their own timeline, and so. So all of these links are there but they're elsewhere on the page now. So, so they are there if the user. This one, for instance, is there if the user installed the monitoring plugin, likewise for this one. This one is there I think if they install, I don't know if it's the Docker cloud plugin. I don't have it and see I dot Jenkins that I doesn't have it for example, but, but I suspect if I were to install Docker cloud. Maybe let's do that. Let's just see Docker. There are many different ways to do Docker. I don't know if it's Docker slaves. Four years ago, Docker swarm. Yet another Docker. Sorry, I don't know which it is. But I get it automatically if I had chosen the Docker image to install Jenkins in the first place. No, no, because this thing is running from the Jenkins Docker image. Oh, okay. So it may be as simple as this one. Let's try that one. The Docker plugin. It'll be back in a minute here. Okay, so onward. Okay, so we've got a documentation section somewhere on Groovy Sandbox. That's good. It needs some work, but it's there. Excellent. Okay. There we go. Okay. So we're in documentation managing Jenkins and the top most page system. What was I looking for Groovy Sandbox. That's right. Wait a sec. Oh, different page script approval. Sorry, I need to look at the right page. So script approval, which is in process script approval. Here we go. Groovy Sandbox, you know, Groovy Sandbox, there it is. Okay, great. All right, so the link is absolutely working. Good. Oh, yes. And you describe in process script approval. And I thought this was there all the time. Not it not conditional at all. Because I don't. Right. Yeah, but yeah, but you mean whether it's on the manage Jenkins page. Yes, I think it is. Right. I meant to say. Oh, but that does say that it's only going to show. So how about how about let's find some posing a different phrasing. Okay, so let's see if an unsafe method it's using any of the scripts. The administrator can go to the in process script approval action. Oh, yes, that's good. Administrator may use can use to allow to allow the unsafe method. Right. We recommend against allowing do know. Yeah, how do we say it. Do not allow unsafe methods. In general, is it okay to say in general, do not allow unsafe methods. Well, because they are unsafe. But now this is this is terrible phrasing so help me out. Yeah, what because I'm thinking that what we mean to say is be very careful be sure that what you were allowing is in fact, say, or some. In other words, I thought that something can show up as an unsafe method just because maybe it's something that I wrote for new and so Jenkins doesn't know about it. Right, but how Jenkins and it's actually safe. But, but usually, if you're being, if you're being warned that something is an unsafe method, it's real, but it's an unsafe method and you're, you shouldn't, you should consider that you're now threatening the stability of your Jenkins controller by enabling it. Okay, well there be very careful. When, when using this. I want to say here's this thing don't ever use it. Right. I want to say be very careful when you be sure you know what you're doing when you use this because you cannot be enabled without careful thought consideration of the, the impact of the method. Good. Yeah. Is that a way to say it. That sounds nice. Yes. So consideration of the impact. Yeah, there we go. So, right, please, please be careful. Yeah. Okay. All right, and system and this, I'm going to say approved with. Yeah, with suggestions for your consideration. Thanks, Meg. All right. Anything else on on pull requests or topics like that. There is another older related PR out there that's not mine. Okay, that might be worth looking at just to because I don't know what to do about it. Which one's that where is it it shows up here somewhere just something about configure Jenkins. I'm not seeing it there on page one I just just a second ago I was looking at the screen, maybe distributed built migration from, from, I forget from Jonathan. Maybe. Let's wait a second I just. What is I sorry I was looking away which one is it the distributed builds migration was one that Jonathan did significant work on it's been through lots of different comments. No that's this is one that, and I'm sorry and I just lost a whole bunch of tabs etc. So, um, but God just a minute ago before this meeting I went looking out of it. And we get basically somebody else like a year before the, before the UI changes had gone through and done something about configuring the maybe this introduction page about system and manager Jenkins. Yes, yes. Okay. And I don't know an Oleg and made some comments and they, I'm something that I'm confused about is I noticed as I look some of these older PR or somebody did a PR and somebody commented and they're sat there for months or right. Yep, you're, you're exactly correct so. So well so let's take a look at okay so when he changed it was to configuring the system. And this is in contradiction to your change right because we've got your change is going to switch us strategically so that system this system configuration page is a description of manage Jenkins. No no. The system of the system configuration section under managed Jenkins. Okay, got it so manage Jenkins and you say there is a system. The first thing under managing Jenkins is configuring the system. Oh, got it. Okay. Which right now is content free, but you have added content to this, or have you know, no. Okay. I was thinking of doing that but but see and, and this one was done before we had the sections. Right. Okay, so what you've done is you've added to let's look at the files change in yours you've added to the added to the chapter with an about page and system info page but have not touched the that that opening page this configuring the system page. It's still listed in work in progress. I figured that could be done as a separate PR. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And the question is what do we do should we do something with that with that pull request from Jonathan. Right. And I'm sure the answer is yes, and then it's all right. How do we, is it ready to merge back to where we were. Okay, so this was on. Let's just do author get JB. In one approach is we merge it, and then I do some writing based on what he had done. Right. As I start from a blank sketch like so. Yeah, see here he is describing again, the things that you've put into the top level page. Right. And so for me this is a no let's not do it there, because we want that in the in the manage Jenkins page not in the configuring the system page. Right. But now he has some stuff that I don't have. Right so question under man like and I do like and talking about the rest API's and, you know, that's a place and where do we mention cask we mentioned that that's there on that list. But and it may be I was sort of thinking configuring this, it may be that configuring the system begins with mentioning, we've got this UI and that's what we're going to talk about but there are other ways you can set configurations. And that would be or have this might be a good place to say hey configuring configuring the system, you can either do it through manage Jenkins, which then linked to the manage page, or through configuration is code and linked to configuration is code or through. Yeah, so I think this page, the way he the way he approached it is valid, but we've shifted the content elsewhere. There's still some content that we use here we can certainly take it from him and bring it in. Right. But I think we should do that in a separate poll request. Absolutely. No, it's not not conflate. This one is once once you've had a chance to think through the, the proposed changes. This one is, I think ready for us to merge. And it gets us out of having this page listed as working progress. See, do we have any I didn't check we have any more work in progress notes. Yes, we do one more system and this one is. Yeah, just because I copied that from someplace else. Right. And should look actually that's that is new content it's not very much but see if you agree with it. Yeah, and it's, it's definitely not work in progress we shouldn't say yes, hey this is, this is not not cooked yet it's right. Okay. Okay, got it. All right, so. Yes. Okay. I think we're ready to have you look over my the proposed changes I made reviewed the PR, the system configuration PR from get JV briefly include its content, include a portion of its content in a later poll request. Because I think it makes sense that we we don't want to lose what he what he created, particularly with Oleg's review comments. Yeah, I think most of us I recall the big one from Oleg was that he hadn't listed everything, and he hadn't put in a set or his list sounded like it was comprehensive so. Yep. Good. Okay. It wasn't some substantive about him saying that you could do this and Oleg saying that's very dangerous or something. No, all right, it wasn't that. Okay, and then there's the other question of our long standing friend about security. Yeah, it's like that needs to get merged and that needs Daniel and obviously Daniel's got much higher priorities right now so. Yeah, though though it's it feels like that maybe when we just want to ping him over the holidays here see if he's interested in review, or I could bring it back to life by adding some of my comments and inviting his comments to to to reply. Right, I mean, a very part of me is like, I mean, we know it's, it's, it can be improved but can we get it to the point where it's safe to put in what we've got. Let's prove it later. Because there's a bunch of stuff there that I think would be really good to have out there. Mm hmm. Yeah. And much of it came right out of Daniel's mouth unless I miss or unless I screwed it up in the translation so. Agreed. Okay. Elizabeth, for context, you know we're talking about Daniel Beck is our security officer and he is. He knows everything else to he's really, really good. He is of course, very hard to get resources from and right now with in log for Jay, I think everybody's doing that. But so this is a PR that I did a while ago. And it's sort of sitting there and aging. Yeah, so on screen what you see is restructure the security section. And okay, it looks like Daniel has requested changes. Had you made those changes that he requested? I may have. Oh no, I requested changes. Hang on just a minute. Let me just re-review. I've scheduled myself for re-review. Yeah, because all of Daniel's comments appear to have been resolved. So one of yours that isn't and I responded to it. Okay, great. Yeah, I admit for a while I was looking at this thing every day and I kind of stopped that a couple of weeks ago. Okay, good. And then because if we get that one reviewed then with that one has to go in and then we have to do then I have to redo all the others. Great. All right. Yeah, so this one is so this this one here the restructure is the leader that goes in. Yes. All right. I should actually have tagged all those others as on hold or something. I think all of them have comments that say don't merge this until that one's merged. Yeah, and I think we can. I think because all of them are going to hit the chapter file. And, and to do the development I just shoved it at the end of that list but we'll need to put them in the right order. Yeah, I can at least label them working progress. Okay, and I thought I could mark them as draft but I apparently can't so I'll do that separately. That's an easy step to take. Okay. All right, actually I can do that now can't I probably yeah just go into what you do is you open up the poll request and on the top right hand section here there's a convert to draft. Yeah. Okay. So we've almost run out of time. Are there other topics before we conclude anything from Elizabeth exciting. Elizabeth anything we need to be aware of from you. Yeah, just that and while while you were going through the whole and what you are going to make hours, a little bit lost but I just had down some things that I'll check up on Google after this meeting. Okay, and you are welcome to put a comment in because don't it's on these sorts of things this is written for somebody who's just starting with the system, and you may have insights that Mark and I completely miss. Because it's you know that this isn't clear. So I would love to have that kind of comment it would be very very useful for everybody. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Okay. I've anything else before we close for the day. So no meeting next week. I'm unavailable next week, but then we'll meet meet again the following week so I will be gone December 30, and we'll meet again January 6. Okay. All right, thanks everybody recording I'll get the recordings uploaded within the next 24 hours so that they're available. They'll be on communities that community dot Jenkins dot IO. Happy New Year everybody and we'll talk in January. Thank you. Thanks Elizabeth. Thanks. Bye.