 And welcome to figments the power of imagination. I'm your host Dan fig. Yes, people really call me that leaf and This is a show that's intended to entertain and inspire today. I think we're gonna do both but especially inspire I'm already getting chicken skin as we say and why thinking about it Because it's going to be a good and important episode with a new friend that I made Through the same reunion that I talked about two weeks ago on my prior show and my guest today As we talked about truly loving one's enemy is guy Reuters welcome guy and aloha Guy, uh, let me remind you, you know this kind of how I how we connected. I went to the reunion and saw Former lieutenant trish york who's now a retired colonel which makes me old And through her I met her mom's friend cb long and then he insisted that I talked to you We talked and we thought we had something in common and and in fact, we do have something in common and that's that uh, we both have an interest in forward air control and I fact in two airplanes and And darn proud of both of them. Well, I shouldn't be proud of my phone the ob 10 and the f16 in a little bit of combat in the f16 and What I learned was he had been a forward air controller too and we were going to talk about that right guy that was the idea so Then then we met and we talked met via zoom And talked about your extraordinary life. I have to say If we took our two resumes up through age 22 years would be the polar opposite of mine You did pretty well in school and life, right? Fair fair. Yeah, we main thing is uh Still alive, you know, like my daughter says i'm alive, you know, so good pretty but you were an eagle scout You were a top student at the air force academy the air force academy wouldn't even let me through the gate to Sell pizza if you did that then but you did you were very successful No, did I? I had good education very lucky, you know got into the Air force as a pilot training and so on and you know did did did pretty good there had a I was very very lucky to get into the pilot training because out of the academy I got into what they call the Purdue program, which was a Seven month master's degree, which led me right into pilot training so I could go to Vietnam without having to go through four or five years of an engineering assignment in the um military So in other words because of your let me see if I've got this right guy Because of your excellence in your engineering studies. You were the top engineering grad in your class Um, you were almost deemed too smart to be a pilot if I get there, right? No, no, that's not right But if you if you uh, they had a Purdue program, which they call the astronaut program Which let you go to get a master's degree Out of the academy in a seven month accelerated program at Purdue Which they actually came and taught us some of their courses in our senior year at the academy So then you could give have a master's degree and then go right to pilot training and right to combat if you chose and then That would that would give you very early on in your career a master's degree in engineering This was astronautical engineering, which was spaceflight and then you had a Pilot training and hopefully some experience in fighter units So then that would put you in a fast track for the astronaut program. That's the kind of things they were looking for is fighter experience and Good education and engineering and because of this Purdue program. They were going to get us a master's degree before we went to pilot training So you did that you went to pilot training and while those plans are All contingent on the needs of the air force You did well enough in pilot training to wind up in single seat f100 Class training in the hon as it's known And so that's you know, it's like said it's performance based But then that's where the journey really took a transition and You know, here's here's a picture of you as a cadet and as a And then as a young f100 lieutenant pilot and You're bright eyed and bushy tailed and whatever you look like a young gun. You were a young gun But life was going to take a transition very quickly that I wonder if you anticipated because You didn't go to combat in that fighter initially You went to combat in the o1 bird dog Which is is unlike the f100 is anything I can imagine I I flew the o1 a few times with the koreans and there you can see it's a light single engine plane Later is the to the right is the f100 two seat forward air control. You flew that too, but How did you wind up in the f100 or in the o1 in combat out of f100 school? I've read that that happened needs the air force. We need a forward air controller. Here's your job Well, they they out of the I did very good in f100 gunnery training at luke And they assigned me to a f100 unit. They would not let us go to vietnam in fighters They wanted us to have a couple years of operation so that we didn't dive bomb into the ground You remember how that went you could easily do that as a young fighter pilot So I volunteered for vietnam only out of gunnery school I said, I don't care about you know staying in a fighter unit. I want to get to vietnam So they told me that the only way I could get to vietnam was to take an o1 assignment, which they're looking for F100 or not, you know fighter pilots US Air Force fighter pilots and they they they needed them for the US army the US army they wanted to give only fighter pilots to the forward air control job with the US army So that they understood fighters and they didn't get friendly forces killed So I said that's fine. I'll I'll take that so We're we're going to talk yeah And guy we're going to talk more about the forward air control mission is what you're doing and it's important That's that's the glue between the air force and the land force the air force in the general sense We've both done that we understand its importance and we're going to devote a whole episode parts of but What in the heck made you so eager to get to vietnam and get shot at? Well, I felt like it was my job to get I was a air force pilot and it was my job to get to the Fight basically my dad my dad had enlisted in world war two in 1940 He was an engineer with new york telephone He enlisted in 1940 when he saw the war coming and he was in the whole war You know 40 through 45 and he ended up on eisenhower's staff for the last year Okay, and basically as a lieutenant colonel, you know, but basically the idea is is that he said if there's a fight You want to get in the fight, you know and so on so Basically, there was a fight and uh, you know my dad was still alive and I just it just was a natural thing for me We used to watch the korean war, you know every day when I was growing up and so on and I'd had a lot I've read over a thousand books on warfare. So it was a natural thing for me to want to get into the war Well, yeah, we've found another kind of bipolar element of our comparison of our lives that Converge a bit In that my grandfather Was wearing corporal just missed combat got to your but after the war was over My father was commissioned right after the end of the war in the navy and I had a different obligation, but the same Desire that I need somebody and family had to pay the bill pay the debt Um interesting. So you went and you flew the old one in combat that light airplane over 400 missions Yes, that's right Not an unarmed aircraft basically you had rockets to mark targets Then probably got shot at a lot because the enemy knew how valuable you were Took a lot of hits in here Did you and see this is all the discovery learning we're gonna keep we're gonna do 12 or 18 episodes. I don't know guy, but Took a lot of hits In probably in deaths for circumstances where the land forces needed your help right now And you finished your 400 missions. Could you have gone home then? No after 400 missions. No, I could I could not I could not But I volunteered for I volunteered I was I'd been over there At that time seven months or so. I volunteered for misties, you know, I wanted to get back into 100s at some point I volunteered for misties And uh, yeah to get back into fighters And uh, somebody told me one of the fighter pilots that I kept in touch with told me about the misty mission and it sounded Really wonderful. And so I volunteered for him and was able to get in to the misty unit And for our viewers misty was a command of saver I think was the name of the program Um, it was a special program pretty classified Only volunteers all fighter pilots applying two c def 100s to look in what was known as route package one The southern area of the ho Chi Minh trail right near the demilitarized zone Full of guns folks very heavily defended. So we went from the frying pan to the fire In terms of combat training. They were all volunteers Um, it's a very unique and distinguished group There are two former chiefs of staff the air force that came out of the misties and other names that as a fighter pilot I look at with with reverence frankly and Guy you were one of them and Transitioned to the misty and how did your transition of the misty go? It was pretty exciting from the outset It was good. I I uh, really really enjoyed I was very happy to be back in fighters And the mission was excellent, you know, we had a really good mission fighting and Interdicting convoys generally in root pack You know the the root the root pack really it was next to the dmz The the one furthest away from Hanoi high fang on the south, you know right up against south vietnam And our job was to try to interdict the convoys before they went across the passes. There were four passes into laos Our job was to try to interdict those convoys And you would do that you'd find the convoys and then Sort of what we did in the f-16 during the coastal war once you located the target If you had ordnance you'd expend on them But generally you would control other fighters to destroy the target and try to disrupt the supplies going into south vietnam I got that right That's correct. We had our own tanker each misty mission We had a tanker airborne for the morning and for the afternoon We had two missions in the morning two missions in the afternoon We hit the tanker twice over laos just across the border So that that gave us, you know, really five to five and a half hour missions Three penetrations into north vietnam about three and a half hours there Down low level. So it was a tremendous mission. It really was So viewers that's three and a half hours walking down the most dangerous alley You can imagine in the most dangerous city in the world, okay? Yeah, we had we had heavy we were under heavy fire. There was no doubt of that We're we're down low and uh, the the advantage of that was is that you knew that you were doing something every day that was contributing to Helping fight the war and the war that was my Take over there. I wanted to help end the war to get back to my family As soon as possible. Now the other thing I had I just I mentioned quickly because I really felt that The reason I went over there was to show the communist That you know, we had men that would fight them no matter what their Ideas were their ideas were I you know spent a lot on their philosophy was to Tie us up in wars of liberation all over the world because we wouldn't fight the u.s Wouldn't fight them. We weren't willing to fight that they knew they couldn't beat us in a nuclear war But they felt they could beat us, you know country by country and it was all Stalin's idea that from you know back in 1920 That we'll take all the little countries and then all the resources will be in our hands and then europe and the united states Will fall like ripe fruits off the trees into our hands because they cannot Live without the resources of the little countries and that's where wars of liberation came from in their whole Philosophy and attacks. That's why it was all over the world and these kinds of things and vietnam one of the things It did was it stopped their wars of liberation because they had to put all their effort into vietnam And that let us beat them everywhere else honestly. It's interesting Um And you and I have talked a bit about vietnam and the president able to get back to that later So as he went over to oppose this war of liberation and we know how Unliberating those wars were for the affected populace guy. Did you Did you hate your enemy these these north vietnamese and vietcong that were shooting at you on a daily basis and trying to kill you Frankly did no no you feel about the enemy I was just like most americans. You're just doing a job You're you're in a fight and you're trying to do the job the best you can There was really no uh hatred at all in combat And then uh and then uh something you an event you probably hated your early in your tour You were shot down And rescued and badly injured And folks i'll tell you the book to read to learn about that um at that point But you have uh called it a combat tour and going to work putting command post and in uh Saigon or something what did you were you compelled to stay in the I didn't feel I didn't feel I mean I just wouldn't think of that You were allowed to not fly over north vietnam after one shoot down Okay, I rescued but I you know I didn't and some you know some people did that but I just couldn't imagine doing that So I just came back to misty, you know okay, folks we have a lot of A lot of folks walking the streets who think they're badass Okay, you need to listen to guy's story and redefine the term Uh, and I've thought about that a lot. You may think you're tough, but he was badly injured and fought his way back into combat And that didn't work out so well Because on your 12th misty sortie, I think in the up 100 you were shot down again Tell me about that That's what were you hit by and in the moment of getting out of the airplane share a little of that moment, please with the audience Okay, we were hit uh was after a About five hours in the air we'd attack. It was under a 1500 foot sailing We were the only aircraft in north vietnam We went in without any ordinance on the wings just with 20 millimeter cannon and uh The good thing about that was is that we we could you know go down low under the low deck of 1500 foot sailing You know, but of course the dive bombers couldn't do that So the convoys were on the road in the daytime and we knew that would happen So uh crainer and I went up there and we attacked and really tore up three convoys Expanded all ammunition With 20 millimeter, you know right out of the right out of the gunnery school type attacks, you know right on the deck Knocking those convoys. You know where every 20 millimeter was an exploding shell So you're doing damage every time you hit a truck and you're just going right down the line to the trucks at the end We're out of ammo. So we figured well, we'll get a spot. We'll get a we'll get a fix on There was a six six gun Batteries that was a very good position They'd almost got a number of the guys we've been putting in they almost got us a few times And it was out in a rural area and it was a very good position It got the gunner the guy that ran at gun site was a really good commander And so we trolled for fire and generally what we do when we hit somebody like that We we'd get fire at the end of the day because otherwise they'd move the gun site They're very well camouflaged and then in the morning first thing in the morning we'd come in and hit them We'd hit the gun site, uh, you know, they they really frowned on that but we did it all the time And basically we're we we wanted to get their positions on a one to 50 000 map That Afternoon the last thing so we're trolling for fire about a half mile a mile out from them and we're being covered you know, the traces are all around us from you know, 18 57 millimeter 1837 miller either hardball softballs of fire were flying right through this cloud big bullets one stops One of the stops in the air and it comes right into my canopy and in fact the last second I ducked my head and my thought was is that I've got a if this thing explodes That's it My only hope is it's a dud because it was going to hit my canopy But it didn't we moved forward and it hit behind me about four Feet which was a saddle back area of the 102 hydraulic pumps You ought to plane badly and flip it over on its back and to the end of the ground from 1500 feet But we had to eject immediately and uh had a streaming shoot But I just had a I had a seven and a half inch blade survival knife and with the tip of the blade I was able to cut a couple of risers got a shoot and then Steered to a patch of woods and that's a whole story in itself just oh Yeah, that's like uh, but several stories the And the end result because we have something very important You know what we want to get to guy the end result is you wind up incarcerated in van prison and hanoi the the infamous Hanoi hilton we got a The picture looks pretty benign and hanoi is a beautiful city today. I've been there many times. This is not a beautiful place And very not beautiful things were happening there and we'll talk about those in a minute Let me take a quick breather and tell you that i'll be back in two weeks But another episode of figments our imagination if uh if cb is available We'll probably talk on february 1st about forward air control. It'll be a little more blind fight and And I like it. So hopefully the audience will too. You've been respect receptive so far Before I go on let me get to the reading list because if you want to know about the misty starting in the middle They're at the top there various upside down as a great Book about the misty fact business and some very brave men doing very difficult work One of the prisoners who in the hanoi hilton was robinson reisner. His passing of the night was a very Formative book for me as a young fighter pop And then a book that is not at all about air combat but is about combat and the morality and how In how humanity can be lost in combat is about the battles of pelallu and okinawa by Ev sledge with the old breed a book that I still pick up to be reminded of the nature war and your war took a turn And that turn was to be incarcerated One of the first things that happened was you wound up with an academy Colleague, I don't know if you're in the same class but last side john tell me how did you You reconnect with lance in the hanoi hilton as a prisoner of war Well, what happened was is that it was really a holding camp down East of the magia pass and it was just a what they call a bamboo prison It was just five six little cells in there Crane and I were in two of those cells. This was a temporary other pilot from the f100 camp A different camp. I was in six different camps in north vietnam There were 15 camps up there. This one was a temporary camp the only one that was really a temporary camp And it's crane or I were in there and they brought this this p o w in the middle of the night after we've been there about a week or so And I saw him when I went by his cell. I pushed the door. We were in irons, you know leg irons and both hands and legs And you could only shuffle along there. So taking me out to the go to the bathroom my guards in front I pushed the cell in and I saw the skeleton on the floor. I thought it was a kid. It looked like a kid and the next day I gave him a high sign, but he didn't respond very well and I he was very just like a skeleton So the next day they called us out of our The day of that they brought him in in the middle of the night They called craneer and I up and he had a big cast on his left leg and so they called us in to take him out and Clean him up because he couldn't and you know take him to the bathroom So he put his arms around our shoulders and when he did he looked at me and he said, aren't you guy brooders? and I said I did a double take really and I said yes, I am who are you? and he said Lance I said Lance who he said side job Lance side job. I said, oh, no, not side job Side job was a class behind me at the academy, but in my in my squadron the 21st squadron for three years Okay, he played football Unbelievable that he was in this kind of condition. I could pick him up in my arms. He's probably down to about 65 A pound, you know as an example that if you look at that picture from his academy days You can see that you know, he's a very robust Healthy tip kind of typical academy class Yeah, and we only have so much time so I want to get to this but get to The the point that needs to be made You watch your captors Kill your friend Lance side job Oh, yeah, they kill they kill them because they they just basically they beat them really badly We're screaming like crazy. We're telling the entire gators. He's all solo They're being him on his wounds and so on he wouldn't give him anything but name rank service number date of birth and To make a long story short over the next, you know, three or four weeks he he he died and It was a helpless man and it was just a terrible thing to witness You know, that's when you hated your enemy I that's where I started to hate the enemy now Of course, we were being tortured too and torture is a really bad thing And interrogation and torture and this is where you know, you can't Uh, you just you can't imagine torture unless you're in it, you know for Long periods of time. It's really bad and you can respond to that. You can in my case Resulted in Hating seeing what they were doing seeing their whole Philosophy, which was you know, you can't have your own opinions We're going to tell you our opinions and you better listen to them And we're going to use you for propaganda and all this kind of thing to really see what was happening You know, keeping you so long with one other POW all the things in a communist prison camp Living conditions everything were just unbelievable. So it resulted it resulted in a really bad hatred worse and worse And over a period of months I developed that hatred first time in my life. I ever developed hatred And as a result it resulted in a terrible spiritual crisis for me And then up to yeah up to that. I'll tell the audience. I know that you were devout catholic We talked about that but but you know, that's kind of contrary to your nature and it led you to such a dark place that you Considered killing yourself Yeah, well, what happened was is that uh, of course, I I think that i'm fighting I think that i'm fighting very well. I'm in a fight against these communists and i'm Doing everything I can but i'm hating and now i'm hating the first time i'm hating i'm really hating them and as a result of that I started getting these Just like it says You when you read about this stuff you stop being able to sleep well You're constantly thinking about how you can get even revenge how you can torture them back All this kind of thing and so what happens is is what happened to me was I started There was a number of men that quit eating and committed suicide Okay, throughout the camps there, you know a number of men that happened The conditions were horrible and of course you just thought it was the conditions were terrible And they just you couldn't take take it anymore, which was a part of it. I'm sure but anyway The other thing that happened to me that was is that I had voices talking to me in my head Convincing me that the only way to beat these guys Completely was to stop eating Now they didn't say you're going to die, you know the voices are not telling you You know the devil's not telling you that this is going to kill you but of course you know that right Well as soon as this happens and these voices can be more and more insistent with all kinds of logical arguments Like look, there's no way that if they put you in the torture to meet the delegations or do this or whatever There's no way you can resist that you know that the people are going to break down after A week or two, you know, that's what's going on. There's no way it's going to be different with you And basically you're going to have to do that You're going to be a traitor to the country a traitor to your family and so on right So that's the kind of things these voices would tell you So when when they started talking about not eating then I knew that it was a devil And I'm you know, I literally am thinking things like lord. Why why is the devil talking to me? I'm fighting as best I can I want to beat these communists, you know and stuff like that Why is this happening? You know a song but there's there's there's dead silence, right? So these things get more and more insistent and then luckily I and I had had good training I had a little nun teach me in seventh or eighth grade that you know, you never want to commit suicide I knew I couldn't commit suicide because she told me you never commit suicide because that's a mark of a quitter and a coward But the thing that I think that I always remember she says but worse than that It's not just you're a quitter and a coward forever But you're making your family the quitter family the coward family Everybody you're associated with your parents your friends and their boys your relatives. Oh, she was dynamite I still remember the boys replace the devil's voice Yeah, well, I mean that's she that's what I remembered was do you can't commit suicide? You're gonna have a quitter family, you know So anyway, basically I said, okay. Well, you know, that's that's then I realized it because my I really believe because my wife and my aunt my mother were praying hard They were on a daily mass and groceries and everything like that because of that I had I was blind to the hate but then I saw, you know, why is this happening? I realized because of the hate Oh the hate the hate the hate. That's right. Hate is a sin. I'm not allowed to hate I've never hated like this before, you know, I Other sin, but I never hated like this. This was really a bad sin, you know, really bad So I felt like well, all right. I can't I can't You know commit suicide. So I got a Beat this hate. So I tried to beat the head of hate on my own for the first week or two I could not stop the voices. It got worse. I couldn't beat the hate on my own So I got on my knees and I started praying literally like, you know, you hear people talking about I said Jesus Jesus, you know, you got to help me I can't beat this guy, you know, you got to help me beat him, you know, and so on and I I had forgotten I had been going to mass but I hadn't I'd forgotten like as an example part of the rosary and so on I didn't even know the mysteries But I knew it was 50 Hail Marys with our fathers every 10 and I just started saying that and other prayers out of my mind Asking Jesus to please help me to beat this ridiculous voices that are talking to me And after three months, I Yeah, and after three months I remembered being ecstatic because I for the first time for the first time and many many months I could say lord forgive him and it was just it wasn't out loud It was just in my mind and I didn't mean it. It was a lie But it was a first time that I could even form those words in my mind And so I knew that somehow God was changing my heart three months later I really was praying for all these 22 different torturers and interrogators That I had experienced with to be forgiven and to get to heaven and I met it I was really praying for all of them to get to heaven and that that's where I first came to realize that The whole world is God's children and his masterpieces and we're not supposed to hate anybody period, you know Yeah, and that is the bottom line. I wanted to get to is where I believe that as I Blew combat stories over the beautiful Balkans and looked at the ugliness that hatred created there I told myself in a different easier circumstances I'm just not going to hate anymore because look what it does Look what it does. So to me guy and again not put words in your In your mouth because you're so eloquent about this, but it's like you got freed twice you Were freed from the hatred and then About 50 years ago this coming march 14 You were freed from imprisonment in vietnam and We got a picture of another group of POWs How did We're running over time absolutely no surprise with such important things to discuss but The moment that you lifted off from hannoy. How did that? He just we we honestly couldn't believe it when we got out of there We couldn't believe it. It was such a complete for five years. We knew that we were never going to get out of there You know, we're going to die out there Then that b-52 started that bombing and that that did that got us out changed everything and that's that's yet another show you may be the I may ask you to be a guest several times and It had to feel real here or you're actually greeted by your family and that's a picture of you as a captain upon relief I want to ask you to tell what that feels like but to spend five years three months in prison tortured going through the anguish and the depths of hatred and coming out to your family that stayed with you and waited for you Wow, god bless you guys It's an amazing story. God bless you Thank you and I just say that your story got more amazing You and your wife had five more kids. You flew for an airline You had a software company still do man. I think you said you still do yeah You've done amazing things as an individual an entrepreneur a motivational speaker So let me ask you this would any of that been possible? Had you continued to hate? No, I'm sure he would have talked me into suicide I'm sure he would have talked me into suicide He's smart He's smart if I hadn't had that training You know and if I hadn't had the prayer for me and so on and we had a lot of americans praying for us Because the whole the whole thing that's hard for people to understand is despite the sin I didn't see it as I'm in the sin Okay, I had the grace from the prayers. I believe of my family to see the fact that hatred Was a sin. I thought it was just part of the fight. You know what I mean? Right uh, wow powerful testimony and Much needed in times like these where there's just too darn much hate We all have we all have anger things make me mad. Sometimes I express it more pitifully If that wasn't play on words um But there's different difference between anger and hate and the fact that we somehow are compelled these days to hate people who think act Look, whatever differently Is dangerous for our society and I pray that we'll find a better way because the world deserves a better way in our kids and grandkids and Whatever generation of any of the eight million miracle eight billion miracles as you put it that deserve that I'm gonna see again assist that you come back with cb and talk for their control and more stuff I'm so fortunate to have met you. Thank you for the time today. Yes audience. We ran over but But it was worth it. So guy Let me uh sign off with our folks here remind you that we do have Uh qr codes here. I'll show them on the screen so you can quick get a quick look at the playlists on youtube We're also available on vimeo spotify and other Um platforms by the way, you got two pretty tech savvy old guys here So don't think you're the only ones who know know the tech world And and finally I want to thank think tech hawaii a wonderful non-profit corporation that enables citizen journalists like me with their think tech videos Eric and ash my engineers special thanks to you and uh, I look forward to talking with you in two weeks Aloha Thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo You can also follow us on facebook instagram and linked in and donate to us at think tech hawaii.com Mahalo