 Hello and welcome back to episode 105 of the Market Maker podcast, where I'm joined as ever by my partner in crime and co-founder of Amplify Me, Piers Currin. And there's only one thing for us to talk about, and we're a little bit early this week because we wanted to put something out about Credit Suisse. It's obviously dominated the headlines certainly in the last 24 hours. In fact, I think given the fact that they've gone down so much midweek and rebounded so much this morning. I think they've done a 50% round trip pretty much when you're talking about market movement. And I thought, just Piers, given I know you love a bit of sensational journalism, I was going to throw the Daily Telegraph, which is a major UK newspaper's headline at you. Front page, it read, Swiss bank crash, stokes fears of a new global crisis, UK officials scramble to help prop up the bank as the meltdown overshadowed the budget. I don't know if I could fit any more words into that to make it more sensational. But I think the important thing for us to talk about, you know, you did such an awesome job deconstructing the SVB situation into a way that I think normal mere mortals can understand. So I've had lots of great feedback from that. So I'm hoping we can get a little bit of the same with credit sui. So we'll discuss what triggered the crash, why the shares are now up 20% after they initially fell 30%. Then how is this different to the recent demise of SVB? Any potential contagion effects for the Eurozone, the ECB meeting is happening in fact later on today after we're recording this. So get your insights into the way the rates market has moved and then what to look out for next, both from the credit Swiss perspective as a company and also from a global markets perspective because certainly this isn't just a stock market move. Everything is shifting. The wills are in motion. So perhaps we could start with what in the heck is going on? Why did their shares fall 30% yesterday? Let's start there. They fell 30% yesterday, but I think you've got to step back a little bit. You've got to zoom further out than that because this isn't a story that started yesterday. This is a story that started I guess back at the beginning of 2021 to be honest. If you to understand the credit Swiss situation, then you go back to the start of 2021 where it was a Goliath of the global banking industry. Of course, its roots are in the old school Swiss wealth management side. But as it grew, it became more ambitious. They set about a sort of global growth strategy that also added on much more risky plays like investment banking and sales and trading and brokerage and taking on a much more global footprint. But really in 2021, things started to go south after a series of sort of big gaffes, you might say, in terms of really bad plays and scandals and various sort of bad decisions. So for example, you might remember Archie Goss, which was a fund manager that collapsed and Credit Swiss lost 5.5 billion in that deal. That was in March 2021. That was the month where things started to pivot and go south and it's been going south ever since for two years. It wasn't just the Archie Goss, it was the whole green sill scandal, which I won't go into but essentially Credit Swiss were forced to suspend $10 billion worth of investment funds that were tied up in this kind of specialist finance firm that went south and thousands of its wealthiest clients had their savings trapped inside that green sill scandal and they're actually not sure if even they've got access back to that fully even now, right? But look, you've got to go back to 2021, right? And this is where things went south and ever since then they've been in scrambling, restructuring mode. They've gone through a few CEOs. They've gone through a couple of different kind of strategies in terms of major restructuring. They've flogged their equity trading arm. They're trying to think about doing a kind of bad bank to house their toxic debt and deal with that kind of separately. They've done this kind of deal on the investment banking side, which I'll talk about in a bit more detail, I think later it's quite an interesting one now. But the point being that the share price has been moving heavily south since 2021. For example, in 2021, their shares were trading, let's just call it at the start of 21, they're trading at 13 euros per share. It's now trading at two. That's even after the massive rally that we've had this morning. It's trading at two. So let's not get carried away with this rally that we've just seen. But in 2022, in particular, big losses, they're announcing big losses in 2021, big losses in 2022. They're expecting another big loss in 2023 as this restructuring plan gets rolled out and it's expensive. But what's happened in the meantime is that two things on their private banking side, so that wealth management division, people have been pulling their money out because they don't believe in Credit Swiss anymore. These are your kind of high net worth individuals and they're like, there's plenty of other options in terms of big global banks that offer a phenomenal, you know, private wealth management services. So people have been nervous and taking their money out separately. Depositors just straight up depositors in terms of Credit Swiss being a retail bank, they've been withdrawing deposits as well. This is well in advance of the Silicon Valley Bank scandal in quarter four of 2022, in fact, I think the deposit withdrawal was something like 37% percent, 37% of the bank's deposits were withdrawn in quarter four, 27% of the division's assets under management, the wealth management division's assets under management were withdrawn. This is quarter four last year. So this thing's been brewing for a while now. Clearly, the Silicon Valley Bank situation has now led to and has sparked just a little bit of a panic and almost in some ways a bit of a rethink and actually probably just reintroducing the concept of counterparty risk for a depositor. Like we haven't thought about it for well, since the financial crisis, really, it's like anybody listening to this podcast before the Silicon Valley Bank thing. Have you ever even for one second thought, hang on, is my cash in my bank account, is that safe? Is that actually mine or might I lose that? Don't give me give me flashbacks to the run on Barclays in like right. Oh, nine. It's been so far away from people's minds, right? But now it's back and they're like, oh, well, hang on, this bank that seems like it's really important over in the US. Hang on, that's gone. That's gone south. OK, maybe I should think about my money and whatever bank that's in and maybe why is it safe? And I think, you know, the the kind of on that front when you're looking globally, I mean, I guess we were all looking for, right, in the US, it was Silicon Valley Bank, you know, who's next? And is it another US bank that's set up like Silicon Valley Bank? And we talked about that in the pod last week and how it's set up. And it's quite unique depositor base and right, which banks next? Which one's going to fall next? You know, little did we imagine that it would be one of Europe's very largest banks that could perhaps be next in line to go south. So. Yeah, the the the SVB saga has just triggered another episode in what is an already multi episode saga for credit stress that goes back to the start 2021. So let me let me bring it up to the current week then. And I'll just give you the running order here of how things came to light. So on Tuesday. The bank revealed that its auditor P.W.C. had identified, quote, material weakness in its financial reporting controls leading to the delay of the publication of this annual report. So if that wasn't bad enough, but this is often what happens. It's a domino effect and that initiates then the move sparking what is already and fairly anxious market, as you say, in the back of SVB, then on Wednesday, the Saudi National Bank come out and their chair said that the answer is absolutely not when asked if the if they would basically be open to providing capital to credit Swiss and S&B, the Swiss National Bank, the Saudi, excuse me, National Bank, not to get confused with the central bank. The Saudi National Bank bought a 10 percent stake in credit Swiss last year. So they were like the saviour at the point of where everyone was bolting for the door. And they basically came out and said, look, we can't do that again. And absolutely he actually said, absolutely not. And then that was what really fired things off yesterday and caused a collapse. But were you surprised by how quick all of that came out and the severity of the move or not? I wasn't surprised. No, because they are the most vulnerable. And look, in the end, you know, in the end, our credit Swiss like Silicon Valley Bank, absolutely not. There's there's very, very little. Hardly any similarities at all in terms of their depositor base, you know, in terms of their, you know, what what securities do they own on the asset side of their balance sheet? You know, in terms of their capitalisation and all the rest of it, there's no similarities at all. But credit Swiss of the week is bank in Europe for the reasons I've just said. And so in the end, this is just that, as I said, it's that counterparty risk has just suddenly been the spotlight has suddenly been shown on it. And to the point where people are going, well, actually, you know what? I don't care that credit Swiss are not like SVB. I'm just going to take my money out anyway, just in case. Or it might even be you could say it's panic, right? With all these depositors withdrawing money, you could say it's panic and it's irrational. I'm not sure that's quite right, though, because, you know, if you're sensible and you're thinking, right, am I worried that other depositors are going to take their money out? If I'm worried that other people are going to do it, well, then I should do it as well. Because if everybody does it, this bank's going to go south and then my money is going to be stuck. So that's quite a rational thought process. I heard a really good quote from a guy in the US. I can't remember who he worked for, but he basically said he was talking about all of the CFOs and the conversations that would have been happening on the day prior to the SVB all transferring. He was saying basically the rumors were on the CFO street was if you're going to panic, just make sure you panic first. Yeah, I'm very good. I mean, so but I guess the thing is, right, what really triggered it is this how serious is this for Credit Suisse? Well, you were just talking about the timeline there. And basically on yesterday afternoon, Credit Suisse were kind of reaching out to the Swiss authorities to try and encourage them to kind of deliver some kind of public statement of confidence. And so at eight p.m. Zurich time, there was a statement and it was the idea was to try and reassure markets. And the statement was if necessary, the Swiss National Bank will provide Credit Suisse with liquidity, OK? Then at 2 a.m. local time, Credit Suisse released a statement that now before I even talk about what's in the statement and what they said, the fact they're having to release a statement at 2 a.m. In the middle of the night, that right there, forget what it says, that right, the timing of it tells you that this is very, very, very, very, very serious that Credit Suisse are right up against the wall and are genuinely on the brink of collapse. You know, you don't you don't release 2 a.m. statements having strong arms the government into trying to reassure markets the day before if something is not cataclysmically wrong. Well, don't worry. We'll get the insight of that night when it comes out on Netflix. Obviously, what's happening is the outflow of deposits and the outflow of assets under management. Is accelerating, right? I already told you about the stats in quarter four, which were horrific. I can't even imagine. It's just it's got to be a blood bath, right? Now, if someone requests their money back, if you're a depositor and you go, I want that's my money, I'd now like it back, please. Well, the bank needs to give it you back, right? But have they got the cash to give it back? And this is the whole problem. And that's why SVB went under. And that's why Credit Suisse might have gone under and might still if it were not for this kind of news where they're borrowing so that the announcement at 2 a.m. was that we, Credit Suisse, were taking decisive action to preemptively strengthen its liquidity by a key word. Yeah, preemptive. I think it's a bit late to be preemptive. So I don't think anybody believes it's preemptive. Most people believe it's replaced preemptive with possibly too late. Anyway, they're borrowing 50 billion Swiss francs from the Swiss National Bank under what's called a covered loan facility, as well as a short term liquidity facility. And both of those facilities are fully collateralized by high quality assets. So basically they're taking an emergency liquidity injection of 50 billion Swiss francs, I assume, to cover all of the massive deposit withdrawals requests that are coming in. They're also, and this was maybe clever, we'll see. They also said, further to that, we are going to step in and buy back three billion Swiss francs worth of senior debt securities, basically some of their risky toxic debt, which a lot of their customers are worried about, is kind of, you know, overburdening their balance sheet. So they're going to try and buy back and therefore scratch off this some of the kind of riskier debt that they've got. But, you know, so that's why that's why the share price is banked very strongly today, but it's still trading at two euros. Yeah, the other interesting part of the statement that they made was obviously going head on to really make it clear how they're different to SVB and about this impact of higher rates that triggered that kind of situation. They said the volume of duration fixed income securities is not material compared to the overall high quality liquid assets portfolio. And in addition, they're fully hedged for moves and interest rates. And then they went on to talk about how highly collateralised almost 90 percent with more than 60 percent in Switzerland, average provision rates are so much higher. So all the stats came out about this kind of subject to higher standards of capital, funding, liquidity, leverage requirements, all the rest of it. Yeah. And all of that is true. And all of that is very strong, clear evidence why they're not an SVB type risk. That's definitely true. That doesn't mean they're safe. And, you know, in the end, the more depositors that request their money back will then, you know, the more the share price is going to drop. And the more likely they're going to, you know, in the end, go bankrupt. Right. If everyone wants their money back, well, then you're dead. So how about European equities then got got also hammered. So let's broaden out the view a little bit about the broader European banks because they all took a hit yesterday. Yeah. So is that just a sentiment play? I think rather than a single nothing to do is specifically these other banks themselves. It's it's a, well, it's it's a very sector specific scenario, which, you know, I think I go back to the point that I think I made. Did I make it in the pod last week? And maybe it was on LinkedIn. And my point was that SVB is a really good example of an unintended and unpredictable and unforeseen sort of secondary dimension effect of a very steep interest rate hiking cycle. OK, it's like one of those things it's, you know, because when you raise rates so fast, you know, stuff breaks and it takes time for, as we always discuss on the part of interest rate increases, it takes time for that to have a meaningful feed through effect onto the underlying economy. Right. We always talk about a six to nine month lag, right? Well, here we are, right? It's a six to nine month lag from a super steep hiking cycle and stuff's breaking. And it's stuff that you never thought about. You didn't know about you didn't quite predict or foresee and just stuff is breaking. And I think that generally a lot of people are worried if you take the whole banking system, a lot of people are worried about this idea that they do all own this long duration debt that you were talking about and the SVB had a whole load of all these banks own this stuff, a much smaller proportion in the case of most other banks, right? But they own this stuff and they haven't marked it to market. They bought it at really high prices before the rate hikes cycle began and the actual value of that, those securities are now lower and that's not being reflected in the value of these businesses. It's not reflected in their share prices. Well, now it is. So I think these bank share prices have come under pressure as investors reprice for them the value of their securities on their book by selling their shares and the share price moving lower. That's one thing. You've then got the more vulnerable within the banking community. Obviously, Credit Suisse being right up at the top of that list. And when you look at the share price sell-offs across the European banking sector on Wednesday, Credit Suisse sold off 35 percent. OK, well, the next in line was Comets Bank. Comets Bank, they were hit by 22 percent. Then it's Banco de Sabadelle, and I'm going to be honest. I don't know who they are. I'm not a banking expert. I don't particularly invest in banking stocks. So but they'll be vulnerable. BNP Paribas, they sold off 20 percent. Sock Gem were off 20 percent. Finco Bank were off 18 percent. You got a standard charted. ING Group Barclays sold off 16 percent at one point. Santander were down 16 percent. These are massive numbers. Now, that's that's a that's that's a very sentiment driven move on on that one day, right? Credit Suisse goes. Everything else goes as well. There's a lot of correlation here. There's a lot of panic in there. I would say that whilst I'm not a buyer of Credit Suisse, two euros a share, you know, these other banks, I would say, unless you think this is the beginning of another financial crisis, then, you know, these massive sell-offs in some of these other banks is unwarranted. It's unjustified. That's probably my my kind of spin on it. But, you know, what happens in the next 24, 48 hours is absolutely critical and just because Credit Suisse had taken on this 50 billion Swiss franc emergency loan from the Swiss National Bank, don't for one second think that means Credit Suisse are out the woods and they've been saved. If I was a betting man, I'd probably still favour that they won't make it. As they are, they'll they'll get bought, they'll get sold, they'll get broken up. There's a few different. Yeah, well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what happens for Credit Suisse specifically next, because I agree, it might not continue to look. It might continue to exist, but not look the same, essentially. And what might that be and what are the options? And then let's talk a little bit about Christine Lagarde, because she hasn't slept all night. And now she's got to step up to bat and was an absolute shoo-in for a pretty substantial rate hike again in Europe. And we get to see the outcome of that. It's coming down the pipe shortly. And I want to get your take on that as well. So what are the options for Credit Suisse from here? Yeah, and so I would say, reputationally, they're in shreds, tatters. So that's why I think. I would still favour that we don't have a credit Swiss after this episode like we've had before it. Now, what happens? There's a few options. UBS are the other big Swiss banking giant, of course. And the government in the past have always said that we prefer a two-bank system to give it just from a competition point of view. So they liked obviously the fact that you got UBS and Credit Suisse as rival entities, both are systemic risks to the functioning of the Swiss economy. OK, so let's make that point. Credit Suisse aren't going to go bankrupt and just die. They will get rescued somehow. And how how might that happen? So UBS coming in and taking over and UBS taking control like HSBC bought the UK arm of Silicon Valley Bank earlier on Monday, right? And they bought it for one pound was the official price. OK, so that's then another bank taking on. So you've got this other banks balance sheet, which is super powerful. UBS have been having a great time. Whilst credit Swiss have been suffering over the last two years, UBS have really been smashing it. So they're going in the opposite direction. Reputationally, they're really strong. So that would then be a very positive thing for depositors, right? Credit Swiss depositors, credit Swiss high net worth individual customers who've got your money in the credit Swiss asset management arm. You want to pull that out at the moment because you don't believe in Credit Suisse anymore. But if Credit Suisse now becomes UBS, well, OK, that's different. OK, I will probably keep my money there. So you'll you'll immediately stop the hemorrhaging of cash, right? So UBS are probably the most likely. I don't know what the Swiss government would think about the fact that then from a competition point of view, you then become a one bank system. So I don't know how they might view that if they would prefer to not have that anti competition issue. And they and therefore if they blocked a UBS move, well, really you've only got then foreign banks that are rather likely suitors. And I don't know what the Swiss government would feel. I don't know how they would feel about a foreign bank. So who are the other foreign banks? Well, Deutsche Bank would be an interesting one because Deutsche Bank have had a strategy. I mean, they've had their own big issues, of course, over the last decade gone through massive restructuring and actually have started to come out of the other side of that. And they wanted to pivot more to their wealth management side and focus more on the safer, less volatile wealth management portion of their business. But they've been struggling to grow it. Obviously, the great thing about Credit Suisse is a massive wealth management business. So Deutsche Bank picking up Credit Suisse because of a wealth management play would make sense. Another one would be BMP Paribas, the French Bank. They lack a successful private banking arm as well. BMP Paribas are quite weak in Asia. So Credit Suisse would help take a couple of those boxes. So BMP Paribas could be an option. You've then got, obviously, as always, the Middle East and sovereign wealth funds who are flush with cash from the energy crisis. So as we've seen this week, right, they've kind of backed off stepping in at this point to provide more capital for Credit Suisse. So whether that's likely or not, I don't know. I think that was, I don't know the details, but I think partly was due to regulatory requirements. So once you go over certain thresholds, you're committed to buying the whole lot. You're much more onerous to do other things that you need to, I guess, part of the governance of the size of the stake becomes much more, yeah, much more onerous. But the other option is the Swiss government by equity, much like what happened in the financial crisis, Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland. Yeah. And on that point, the analysts at JP Morgan this morning, we're talking about the central bank guaranteeing Credit Suisse's retail and wealth management deposits and thus then forcing it to set off its investment banking arm. So I guess that could be a way of just maintaining that two bank system. They just, yeah, strip off anything that's not part of the main core business. And then they backstop that core business to stop the wrong. And then it just kind of. Yeah, it'll be interesting. So what like this big restructuring plan that Credit Suisse kind of that are that are actioning has got a few different elements to it. I mentioned the bad bank idea. They're not calling it a bad bank. Internally, it's called the capital release unit. It's a bad bank where you kind of siphon off and separate your kind of high risk toxic debt. They're also going through cost cutting. They're trying to reduce spend by 15 percent. So that's reduced spend by 2.5 billion Swiss francs. So part of that is laying people off. So 9000 rolls. They're looking to lay off that sort of a 52000 workforce. They're looking to reduce IT spend. They're looking they're selling off stuff that's peripheral like hotels, office buildings and so on, that sort of stuff. But then the other big one is about the investment banking, which is considered a bit more risky. But what they've done it, again, it's a little bit suspect bit. So there's a guy called Michael Klein, who's this is like one of the biggest. He's like the rain man. He's like one of the biggest deal makers globally. M&A deal makers, I'm talking about. So he was the one who who pulled off the Barclays takeover of Lehman Brothers post bankruptcy, that is, in 2008. He did the big giant Dow Chemical deal with DuPont. He did the Glencore extra to deal like some of the biggest deals ever. It was him and he's got this boutique M&A boutique that he operates, right? Separate to that. He was also sat on the Credit Suisse board. And now the Credit Suisse board basically decided, I know. What great plan for the restructuring. Let's take our investment banking division. Spin it off as a separate entity. We still own it, but we'll kind of make it a separate entity. Then we'll buy Michael Klein's M&A advisory business to create this super boutique M&A firm. So Michael Klein then stepped off the board for the to enable the board to then make that decision because it had been a conflict of interest. And then they basically are paying him $175 million to basically buy his boutique. As I said, to create and what it would do, their idea was it would create a boutique M&A firm that's like three times bigger than the next biggest boutique. But it's not as big as the big giant investment banks like Goldmans and J.P. Morgan, right? So the idea is you have this the super boutique that could with Michael Klein's reputation could become quite a powerful player. So it sounds good on paper, right? But I think probably what will happen is that gets sold off like entirely and becomes its own separate entity. But yeah, we'll see. So let's to wrap things up. Let's aside from the kind of global de-risking, that's been very much apparent over this anxiety on Credit Suisse. It has sparked a huge dovish response in Fed expectations. And the odds of the 50 basis point hike to come today from the ECB dropped dramatically. The entire curve expectations for ECB action has collapsed, perhaps even more notably in the US Fed hike expectations they've plunged as far as the 22nd of March, the Fed meeting coming next week. It's a coin toss now between unchanged or hike 25, seven days ago, eight days ago, we were at a hike 50. Even more so in September, the market is now priced for 60 basis points of cuts. Yeah. I mean, if you take Europe first, I'm just saying whilst you're talking now, I was just looking at the German two year bond yield. The German two year bond is called the Schatz, which is still one of the best named securities out there on the planet. But that has to the yield on that drop from 3.3 percent. Last week, this is 3.3 percent. And it bottomed out 2.3 percent yesterday. That is that is I can't explain to you how big a move that is. Does that make you miss your trading day? You're sat on the terminal. Would you have that would have been like a career day, right? Potentially, I'd have been all over that. That that that's why you're a bit and see the other day, because normally you're a very cool, calm customer. But I reckon you had your eyes on that two year yield. And that's why you're being a bit fruity in the office the other day. Yeah, a bit of I have to say that. Yeah, that's like one of the biggest moves I've ever seen. Yeah, it's a little bit. What if I was still sat on my trading desk anyway? Look, the don't forget that the interest rate, the interest rate is 3 percent, and we were expecting prior to all of this then to raise to three and a half percent, right? So the two year yield should reflect really roughly the the expectations of what the central bank's interest rate is is going to be. So the fact is now trading its banks a little bit. It's now trading at two and a half percent. So, yeah, to your point, it's like not only are markets now saying that central banks are not going to be able to hike anymore. They're going to have to start cutting. Now, I think that's a bit extreme. I think we're still in the eye of a storm here. And I think the reactions and behaviors have got carried away a little bit. So whilst I do believe that central banks are going to have to just go, hang on a minute, we need to just steady the meeting today in Europe, the Fed's meeting next week. You know, what are they going to do? I personally think it makes sense to just pause. Let's just let's just not hike. And let's just make sure this SVB thing and this credit Swiss thing doesn't become bigger. And if and when that's the case, which I think that will be the case, then right, the meeting after, let's let's just things have settled down. Let's get back to thinking about inflation. And right, we can make some better decisions. OK, so I think it definitely makes sense to pause just at this moment. I mean, the ECB, you know, they made classic errors in the past. So in 2011, they hiked interest rates in in April of 2011. And July of 2011, which then triggered the massive kind of eurozone debt crisis. So in the past, they have made the error of hiking anyway, even though we've got this sudden flare up of risk and we're not quite sure how it's going to play out. So they should learn their lesson from that and go, right, we're just going to step back. Doesn't mean we're not going to hike in the meeting to come. We're just saying, look, we're just going to pause. So I think the idea of rate cuts, I just unless this turns into a big crisis, which it could do, but I don't think that's likely, then inflation is going to stay high and they're not going to be able to cut rates. But we're in this panic at the moment and it's spread across all markets. I mean, crude oil dropped below 70 dollars, WTI crude. I mean, that's like saying, you know, that's like recession risk kind of thing, right, where you're thinking like demand for oil is going to drop. So we're below 70 dollars. That's the first time we've been below 70 dollars since 2021. Gold safe haven asset, of course, has rallied well over 100 dollars. You know, as I was saying, you know, yields on the safe haven debt products have dropped as prices have gone up. You definitely have this broad based global risk off with a particular high sensitivity to the banking sector and like indices that are more exposed to the banking sector. Like you take the FTSE 100, for example, well, then that index has suffered more than most because they've got a higher proportion of banking stocks in the index, right? So the FTSE 100 has come off super sharply. But yeah, I'd say let's see whether this 50 billion Swiss franc injection is going to do the job or not. And if not, it's going to happen quickly. Could be by the end of the week. It's actually not worked. I'm fine. We get a UBS scenario or we get it might be over the weekend probably where you're going to get a UBS deal broken. You're going to get all you're going to get the Swiss government stepping in and buying equity or what have you. Yeah, I think one of the things that really stood out throughout this whole conversation is when you were talking about some of those percentages of the other banks and the size of Dave declined. Can't help but immediately just have the feeling that that's just so overdone. There's such a behavioral move. It'd be interested to see because come what may with credit Swiss, they are a systemically important financial institution. So it's not going to cause that kind of, you know, if you're new to markets that Lehman moment is not going to happen because of the regulatory infrastructure in place because of what we've seen last night. So yeah, could it get worse? Sure. But yeah, I don't know that just felt those percentages. I didn't see all of those. They really quite shocking how aggressive that move was. So and the other people I've seen more of this week than usual with our team is the tech team had a lot of the tech teams sniffing around my desk the last 48 hours asking me about what's been going on. And so I thought, well, that's a bit odd. So I, you know, fired up Coinbase. A quick look. Oh, that's why bitcoins up, you know, 20%, whatever it was is tried by burns. So yeah, well, I saw the, well, what's interesting about that though? I mean, that is true now, right? But actually when SVB bang went, went south, Bitcoin was off 10%. So I thought it was quite ironic. Anyway, it has now rallied. So yeah, Bitcoin is actually trading actually the highest, just about to, yeah, the highest since summer of 2022 here as we trade up towards 25,000 bucks on Bitcoin. So yeah, yeah, tech team are all over that. All right. Well, look, let's wrap it there. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Please do make sure that you follow the channel. If you're not really doing so, leave us a review and rating be much appreciated. And thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Catch you later.