 Great great to see such a full room. I'm Lindsay Smalling with 60 decibels that name is the average volume of a human conversation and That's because what we do is we do phone surveys with end stakeholders all over the world The reason that we do that is not because it's easy to Have a thousand researchers in 70 countries who speak a hundred and thirty languages and do You know 15-minute phone surveys at the level of like thousands of them are probably happening today But because it's so important to listen to those end stakeholders and that If we aren't really understanding the impact directly from the people who are experiencing the impact I think we have a lot of data and metrics about What we did and how hard we tried but we don't have the information about whether it worked So that's the pain point that we're trying to address is getting all the way to where the impact is Experienced and making sure that we're hearing that from the people who matter most Do you hear me? Yes. Yes, it's so good to be here with so many old friends and new friends in the room My name is Anna Maria list is how I'm a senior advisor to JFF and Jeff adventures I am here really excited to talk about what we do. Jeff adventures is an impact first Fund sitting at the intersection of workforce education and technology What we do is to invest in companies and startups that are helping low and middle wage workers Get into economic mobility. So that's what we do and impact measurement is at the core of what we do both at the company level at the fund level and certainly that's how we were created and we emerged the challenge that we had Experiencing and the pain point that we are trying to to think through is that with the growth of HR tech At tech and like all of the new players that are coming to the space Impact measurement and management. It's secure to enforce and to actually Compel to do at many company level because we are competing only in the same space So I think it's it's very interesting to see many more funds operating the ESG Arena but now that we are thinking about impact measurement and management I think it gets into a deeper level. So I'm really curious about how this pilot can get us to I think through those some of those challenges Hi everyone, my name is Evan Paul. I'm from Salesforce who here uses Salesforce Cool, I'll take your tech support questions after the panel. It's just come funny So Salesforce for those that don't know is the world's largest customer relationship management software We're used in industries from healthcare public sector nonprofit education financial services and many many others My job at Salesforce is to work with our different product teams to try to embed Impact measurement management reporting directly into those workflows so that organizations build their evidence of impact over time and we over time reduce the Enable interoperability of this kind of data lower transaction costs for impact investing and impact different philanthropy and try to solve that Claire Miller called it the Piping and plumbing problem. So that's that's I'm your local tech plumber on these kinds of issues Thanks, Evan before I move forward. I forgot to mention in the app There is a Q&A section So if you guys have questions use that and then I should be able to access them through my phone here when we get to that portion So just wanted to throw that out there So Lindsay the topic of this panel is about the evolution of impact measurement and I'll throw in management there because that's kind Of an exciting evolution. I think Can you kind of walk us through where we've been? And where we currently are within IMM and who some of those key participants are Yes, the best I can there's some experts in this room who might add some additional color in detail But I think it's helpful, especially knowing that there's so many newcomers It's really like an alphabet soup when you try to get in into impact measurement So let me try to just talk through a few of those acronyms. You may have come across From when the impact investing industry started the term impact investing was coined in 2008 It was immediately a priority that if this sector was going to be legitimate that we needed to understand how to measure impact And so the gin the global impact investing network started by creating iris iris is still You know one of the most commonly used people are really aligned around this what it is is essentially an Encyclopedia of terms of things you could measure and they've built some really helpful tools for walking through that and saying I'm in this sector This is the type of impact. I'm trying to create What are the metrics that are sort of so that we're all talking about a full-time job the same way or we're all talking about Lives touched in the same way So iris metrics is helpful in that way. I think a lot of just honestly, it's pretty overwhelming and so If you imagine that the enterprise is picking iris metrics their investor may be picking different iris metrics There are LPs picking different iris metrics There was some need for sort of alignment around how do we all talk about the same things and making sure that we're Understanding what's really most important to learn and so the impact management project set around having conversations with those different Stakeholders and I think one of the most useful things to come out of that was the five dimensions of impact So organizing folks around who are you impacting? What is the impact you're having how much impact? So sort of depth of impact Contribution how much of that is attributable to your organization and then risk? What's the risk that you are not actually having the impact you think you're having or you're having sort of negative? Side effects so that's really I think if you're starting in this journey Using those five dimensions as a way to like anchor yourself around that who what how much contribution and risk and then Maybe go to the iris metrics to sort of fill in fill in the gaps Another really important piece of infrastructure that's evolved over the last ten years is both these operating principles and the verification of those operating principles So the IFC Developed these nine operating principles for impact investing that then groups could sign on to and so you'll see that certain groups in the Space have committed to those IFC operating principles and that's just to make sure that along all stages from sort of Setting your investment policy statement You're due diligence actually making the investment through sort of the tracking and and the measurement at the end that there's sort of a Common standard of what best practice looks like and then that next layer that's sort of the most recent is that Verification that sits on top of that and there's some of the accounting firms Tideline is here at Socap that do a lot of that verification So all of these are sort of layers of infrastructure around impact measurement and making sure that it really like holds water And that we're talking about the same thing. So I guess the other big piece there is the SDGs And so another set of acronyms, but this is I see you've got your SDG pin on You know, you'll see that There's ways that all these things are interoperable So like the iris metrics play fine with the imp five dimensions play fine with the SDGs Like these are not separate things you have to keep track of they all are sort of layers into the same system But hopefully that's helpful and there's a lot of great resources like Kathy Clark's Intro to impact measurement course on Coursera that can sort of walk you through how to think about this for your for your organization Lindsay that was pretty good that We're keeping that concise And that was a great overview. I so we talked a little bit about Standardization and some of these frameworks I'd love to turn it over to Anna and maybe maybe actually we'll start with you Evan because you have some thoughts on this But it's hard to talk about IMM and not have a big focus on data. So let's talk about data for a second What role is or should data be plain? And maybe focus in Evan on on the role of standardization of well as well of that data and and who's using that data Sure So the way I think about data is essentially a value chain if folks are familiar with that concept So all data is some sampling of reality like no data actually reflects the real world because there's so many different dimensions You could possibly cover So data all data some sampling of reality From my point of view and my colleagues the most important job to be done for that data is for folks in the field doing work We're gonna provide goods and services working to run programs to actually change lives that they get the right kind of information They need to be able to do that work effectively that they can disaggregate it identify where there's bias Intended or unintended Be able to see where is a product really working well for some populations not working at all for another population So that's really kind of job one that really needs to get solved with the impact with the impact data collection a lot of these efforts Down the line you get to rolling up that data at the organizational level looking across a portfolio of programs products and services Ideally comparing kind of cost per outcome and some other indicators of it Should we invest more in this program or service or should we invest more in that? So that's kind of within an enterprise and then some portion of that usually high level aggregated gets reported externally to investors funders regulators and So in an ideal world they would be getting the data exhaust from great in the field data driven work That's happening the reality is a lot of this is top-down a lot of times We have investors regulators know they're deciding what the perfect data standard is and then organizations are then left collecting data For lots of different investors and lots of different regulatory authorities and they drive themselves crazy And at the end of the day may not actually derive actionable intelligence from it So the job we all have collectively is how do we close that gap over the next 10 20 years to get actually better data Collected to drive actionable intelligence in the field with folks doing the work trying to create brand new services New innovative business models etc. So they're getting the data and evidence They know need to know that what works and what doesn't and then align the impact data collection field with what's happening By actual service and goods providers So that then we can actually aggregate that and start to do benchmarking comparison at performance management all the other Good stuff that we'd like to do on the investor side And and Anna I think you bring a unique perspective here because your organization is actually Collecting data and making decisions off of it Can you speak to your experience with that that data piece and and who's using that data for JFF ventures? Yeah, thank you And it's interesting you flag like the unique position we sit in because we fund managers We sit in between like startups and companies and investors who are asking for some of that data So what is important to know is that data and good reliable and clear data is essential for what we do not only Pre-investment but during the investment and pause the investments that we make One of the key thing like the two key things that we work on data Was one to assess whether the tech solutions that we are betting on are it making the lives of those workers better off In our case that we are looking for ways of how the data is making their economic mobility Better and how are like many other factors being intertwined the second thing is like we look in founders Who we can actually with data demonstrate that they are uniquely positioned to unlock the impact And of course the return that we are betting on and how we use that data Of course is to internally report and like build like our investment he says but second to report back to our investors Who are betting on us and the pilots that they are trying to to demonstrate with the work What we do so we are kind of sitting in between and coaching those entrepreneurs on how to Collect that data in a way that is rigorous while we are also like bringing in investors onto kind of the big picture And the trend that we are seeing and And you mentioned high quality data and I want to bring Lindsay into this because that's a huge challenge in the space of How do we validate that the data that we're collecting is actually useful? It's accurate and a lot of that means that you have to get it directly from the source And I know that that's something that 60 decibels does really well Lindsay Maybe you can talk about not just the importance of quality data But also wrapping around some of this quantitative data that I think the impact investing space is really focused on and Incorporating some of those qualitative data points that are essential to getting to what some of these impact outcomes are not just the outputs Yeah, I think what I want to pull on from both of these guys You know you referenced it as data exhaust like it's just how much I want the field to focus on an intense Practicality about the data that you're collecting that if this isn't useful to the enterprises themselves first Like that's the priority beyond the needs of the investors and for too long That hasn't been you know sort of the push to the bottom rather than letting the metrics be defined from the top I'd say one there was a great new report that came out this year called ventures at the helm that was really trying to Shift the investor perspective and others to saying let your ventures decide what matters most to measure Because if this isn't useful business data to them then it's one It's a burden to it's not helping them get smarter about what they do And I think we'd even say push it further for those ventures like we start with what they want to know But they end up learning so much because they hear directly from these end stakeholders and those stakeholders say what matters in Different words they have different ways of describing This is the value that this is providing to me This is why this isn't working and so no matter how many you know, there's some I think sort of lazy impact measurement that's about taking Outputs and and then sort of triangulating to someone else's randomized control trial and says like well if that's what their Off-grid energy project did and we're touching this many people We'll just we'll just you know sort of do some fancy math and say that's what our impact is too We all know that each of these ventures is not the same, right? So there's hundreds of off-grid energy companies and they perform differently. That's not to say that any one of them is Doing a horrible job and needs to be put out of business Maybe that's true But it's more that they have different strengths and as an investor that should really matter to you to be able to say This one is reaching further below the poverty line This one is having a greater impact on quality of life And so we can compare Even if we start with what some people think of as anecdotal data. I think that's where we really start to push the The conversation towards where the impact is actually happening and those are much more meaningful Metrics to base these decisions on if what you're trying to do is have impact And I fully agree with that I think some of the challenges that that we've been trying to work through with our clients is that balance of customization and letting the Organizations kind of choose their own metrics, but then how do we compare? How do we create apples to apples and I know there's frameworks out there that try to push you there But to your point Lindsay, I feel like the the risk on the other side is you you sort of dehumanize or de-impact The measurement activities themselves and and so I know Evan We were talking about this before and you have some thoughts on this. I'd love for you to share What is that balance? How do you find that balance? And then really pursue that from an organizational level Yeah, so the the trade-off we've got is that the clearer your logic model is and the more precise Your measurement instrument is and more quantitative it gets the more implicit a particular mental model is there And so that actually on the one hand the the Comparability of that can be a boon to innovation because you can actually compare like to like and learn But on the other hand if you don't supplement that and complement that with qualitative data You really lose the wellspring of innovation that is qualitative data and the whole field of human-centered design gets deeply deeply qualitative Deeply deeply empathetic because that's where you find the new ideas from and you find new ways to solve problems So I think it always has to be a complement. You've got you know when I was a guide star We had this phrase no data without stories no stories of that data You have to actually capture some of those on the ground lived experience because they will bring different mental models a Different way of thinking about the problem at hand and that therein lies new ways of tackling it I think it's polarized too often. It's like either. We're all standard or we're all bespoke and it's it's a false choice Right, you can there's ways to have standard metrics across the sector and still get really unique insights about the particular business model or the particular Impact that a group is creating. Do you think you know as we as we think through? Impact investing there's a lot of folks coming from the investment side and they're kind of Experiencing growing pains I guess we could call on the impact side where everything's distilled down to a quantitative metric, you know Financial returns are very quantitative and so this idea of measuring and performance and incorporating the qualitative Are you seeing those growing pains from investors in that sense? Of being able to to really make the effort to capture that data. That's a little less Black and white so to speak I mean, I'd be curious to hear what you guys say, but I think it's more a question of right now It's like who pays. Yeah, you know, I get it isn't It isn't free to do this well And so I think the the challenge is not so much like we've been using operational data because it's already there But the operational data one you're sort of asking your ventures to gather it in a way that suits your needs rather than a way that adds value to them and then Also, that it's not, you know, it's not providing new data But that new data that actually gets all the way to outcomes that there is so much value in learning from costs Someone money and so should it be the enterprise that pays is that the investor that pays? Do they need to raise additional LP capital to make it possible to do Impact a measurement well and so I think that's still sort of a major pain point in the sector And and and I agree and I want to dive into that But I also want on it to speak on this because I think it's interesting who does pay That's that's and that's a challenge for many companies themselves I think that let's go to the company level like right now we invest in a company Let's say as we are impact oriented fun We are caring about many of the things that they would like to be of course also trying to track I like to your point about but what their value But certainly like it has to come from the company like it's very rare that you find Grantors who are willing to give some of that capital we found a few over the past few years That are willing to like help us enhance our operations to help our companies and like build capabilities But that's rare. That's not typically where the capitalism So it typically has to be baked into the business model of the company or the fund to be able to afford those value ads What I was I was trying to like think about what you were just saying about qualitative data I find that qualitative data is like an enhancement and it's like an add-on Once you have good quantitative data I think that is very rare that for us investors we can make decisions based only on qualitative data It's a it's a really good enhancement and like especially for us like doing the investment process Talking to users talking to clients looking to the people who are benefiting from the intervention is essential But it's certainly not the only factor. I think that would make it for us to make a decision On it you brought up something around the dynamics with your Investees can you talk a little bit about are they getting access to the data that they're providing and if so How how are they using that data to better their performance? The company self-reported data so they have access to their data. You're asking about like other companies. Yeah, basically when This is coming from a place of I see a lot of I'll call it inequities in the the IMM process of it seems It's a lot of one-way transaction data kind of rolls up the stream And I think one of the things that we need to address as an ecosystem is how to better leverage the use of data for all participants in the ecosystem and and so I'm interested in hearing from your perspective of How you could potentially incorporate those aspects into the work that you're doing or what do we need to do as an ecosystem to Make that more possible for the investees That's a really good question. I think that there are two challenges I think we need to overcome and I think we are a specialized fund to some extent So like with the recent ability to do some aggregation of data that I think would be very helpful for portfolio companies to have We don't have yet in like the system that we need so we need to talk with 60 decibels and with up metrics to like get to The way we want to be but I think that that level of aggregation like being able to share back with companies It's essential because I definitely think we always have conversations with companies about what we are seeing and give feedback But I think there is much more than need to be done Evan do you have thoughts on that as well at sort of the system side of things? I mean, it's it really widely varies sector by sector So I've seen some pretty amazing data-sharing partnerships So there's a network ground solutions network. They are a network of affordable housing finance organizations around the country They have a national data hub and they all use a similar tool to manage their deal flow And so because they've got a national data hub. They can capture contextual information They can understand why one organization has repayment rates much higher than another Given the population served they can get all kinds of insights, but that's a nonprofit network They're different environment. It's a different context than competitive for-profit companies So there are these models out there But I think a lot of them are context dependent around getting to data sharing and then that kind of benchmarkable comparable performance driven kind of data that we would love to see but there's a lot of stuff that gets in the way of that Can I just say two things one? I just want to Someone pointed out to me that there are no entrepreneurs on this panel I'm Mitra back there. I'll give you that shout out Always an important thing to note who's who's on the panel who's saying it And I think a lot of the entrepreneurs in the room would probably disagree with your statement that it always has to come from the Company and would say no if the investors are asking us for it They have a responsibility to help provide that service So I think there's lots of room for conversation there But just want to give that entrepreneur what one acknowledges no entrepreneurs on this panel And to that, you know, I think there are we've most of our clients are investors who are Supporting their portfolio company to do this type of end stakeholder data Partly because they've seen the value for that company having better Just better engagement with their end stakeholders It allows them to innovate the product to raise more money on their next fundraising round like there There's so many business benefits that it actually benefits them as an investor Maybe as part of their technical assistance one amendment I didn't say has to is how it's done right now, but it doesn't need to be yeah, right So I think it is a conversation to always have with investors and investors in the room I think something that you know, it's it's part of building this ecosystem of better impact data, and I think it's Challenging for entrepreneurs who are already putting everything they have into their products and services to carve this out so The other thing I wanted to say you were talking about benchmarks and I will say like Because what we do can feel sort of anecdotal it's phone surveys But I think the most powerful part of what we do like when I I used to run so cap That's my past gig and when I joined 60 decibels impact measurement honestly didn't Didn't capture my spirit because it just felt like a lot of frameworks and a lot of like It didn't really tell us much about what was actually working And so what initially drew me was like wow you pick up the phone and you actually call people and ask them like how revolutionary That's amazing But then the thing that sold me since is the benchmarks that you know When we do this in a repeatable way when you ask the same, you know The same questions to people across the sector across the world that even that highly sort of anecdotal human focus data turns into these really powerful benchmarks and so these benchmarks do exist I think they're sort of seen as this holy grail within the sector and it's not that our benchmarks work for every Everything we're trying to benchmark But if you're trying to benchmark like who do off-grid energy companies reach and how much of an impact on quality of life and things like that Like I think it also goes into the design of all of these things is how does this not give you great data about this Organization but help you understand in context How we're learning across the sector Yeah, and I think it bringing in those benchmarks again alongside this qualitative and the stuff that isn't benchmarkable Let's call it is really important for that comprehensive of not just what did you do? But why did that matter? I think is really important to focus in on I did want to mention one thing about the Who pays and I think we've talked a lot about well who pays the check But I think there also needs to be a conversation of how we we get the check to be smaller And I think that there's an element of Collaboration here and and you know we talked to a lot of folks and they're like we're just at also systems exhaust You know we collect data over here And then we collect data from over here and then we use another system to analyze that data And I think that there's opportunity for the collaboration one thing that I'm excited about this panel is We all come at it at different angles, but how can we start working together to really drive? Efficient impact measurement and management, and I think that that's something that the ecosystem kind of needs to look Look back on so with that I Wanted to shift to the Q&A section because I do have a couple questions here if you'll bear with me for a second so Can you talk a little bit about impact measurement positive contributions without talking about ESG mitigating risk for example carbon emissions avoided Necitates necessitates measuring a company's total carbon emissions Did you understand that? I don't know if I'm reading it correctly Can you talk about impact measurement without talking about ESG I? Mean I'll put my spin on that is that there you know, there's the sort of external impact that an organization is trying to create But then there's also there How are they operating as a business environmentally socially governance like are they following good ESG practices? Yeah, we've I mean just to acknowledge we've primarily been talking about the private markets and what impact measurement means in a private investing context And I think there's a whole different Impact measurement I guess conversation that's evolving in the ESG space. It is right now. It's risk mitigation and I think the Yes, if you're gonna say amount of water reduced That's great to put in a report But if you don't know how much water they were using in the first place and maybe there's still the biggest user of water You know, I think that's again the this idea of benchmarks like you have to have this data in context so I think That's one of the reasons why so much ESG data is being called into question is if like Philip Morris can be at the top of the ESG screen like what does that number even mean? So it all has to be sort of contextualized Yeah, and and I think also to the point of like I think the question is getting that Can you separate those out? And I think the short answer is if you want to? You definitely can but I think that there's an element of what you are measuring if there's Opportunities to to bring it into the ESG conversation with a focus on risk Those two can can live together. They don't need to necessarily be separate at least in my opinion I don't know if you have thoughts on that. I don't think they need to be separate I actually think that the the beauty of impact measurement and management don't well with rigor with good Methodologies and frameworks like the ones that you support It's actually like an opportunity for us to actually go deeper into this conversation about ESG and actually challenge Some of the like the debates that are having right now because it's at the company level How we can demonstrate that where are go where are the goals of the objectives that we were said to be meeting? And what are we getting to with the intervention that we are putting in place? Which is a totally different combo as like what nowadays being talked about the ESG the other thing that the person was talking about was attribution? I think that's a really good question And I think is I want that people actually tend to avoid because like the only way to actually like assess for attribution is actually Running our CTA studies or control groups and actually being able to go intervention by intervention None of us right now I think can claim to do that like my previous employer did it in microfinance and it was very expensive We did it. We wanted to test it out But I think nowadays with the small Small funds that we manage many of us is very hard to compete and to do and if we are going to pass the cost of companies It's impossible. Yeah I'll just add I do think these worlds are converging so like I think a lot of folks Keep a big firewall between ESG and impact But I think in reality these these are converging so the rigor that we hold ourselves to an impact measurement community The ESG space you know GRI for example is looking at this and trying to figure out How can we go beyond just you know disclose this and tell us a story about that to more quantitative more verifiable more auditable? So I think you are gonna see these areas converging over time and some kind of pragmatic middle ground Kind of reached over time and it'll never be done Another one that I think is kind of interesting although. I don't know if I have a good answer for it But is how do you compare or put on the same scale seemingly impossible to compare impacts? For example health benefits verse educational verse economic How do you kind of choose where you where you want to focus and how do you compare? Your performance Yeah, I I have a really hard time when people start to do this Because I do think they're comparing apples to chickens to yeah robots like and so For me it's context and community priorities So really understanding you know where the greatest need is on the one hand And then where the most material impacts of an enterprise is on the other And then that's where the priorities play out that that dual materiality. I think is very real and When we get into this kind of fancy math of trying to value weight different areas of impact and then index them I think that is a fool's errand and we should stop And we should have more cause specific outcome area specific work I think that work where it gets very specific in particular impact areas is fantastic and go go go But when we try to roll things up and have some overall impact weighted score I just think Is my point of view I think it's a fool's errand and we often get off on the wrong path The only thing to add which I agree with you It's that is for me is more addition of where there is least capital So if I want to put more it's like all of these sectors are highly impactful And if I want to dedicate more like telling a million dollars hundred million dollars into one or another I will just look at where there is less money being deployed and I would say we because we have this set of questions that Are just as applicable in the energy sector as the health sector as the education sector, which is like Did you have access to something like this before? We use the PPI to understand what percent are living below the poverty line on those certain metrics We can compare sectors not for the reason of saying health is better than financial inclusion is better than education but you can just start to say okay, so of the Energy companies we've worked with they are reaching further below the poverty line than the education companies that we've worked with But the education companies are having a better customer experience than the other So, you know, there are some ways where it's not you're not comparing apples to oranges But you're understanding that like apples are really good for this and oranges are really good for this on similar metrics So that's sort of how we're like navigating That way of being able to see the same things across industries, but not necessarily Expect them to be the same. I Think that's really insightful as I was kind of like thinking through my own thoughts, you know The thing that flashes out to me is we need investment across all these different verticals Regardless of the theory of which one is the most applicable, I guess Which may come down to a community context is we need capital across all of that The thing that I would really push on is the theory of change that you set out to achieve And where you can making that applicable within a thematic area because that's really where you're going to be able to test And I know we're talking about data a lot of times in the context of reporting But I think you know a really important emphasis on this is around decision-making and are we achieving what we set out to achieve? How do we set goals? And sometimes that gets lost and I would call it the reporting shuffle to simply show Externally, but really like what do we want this capital to do? Let's set the theory of change. Let's set the KPIs accordingly And not get so bogged down and you know am I focused on education? Is that right? Or should I be in you know workforce or should I be in economic or should I be in health? We need capital across all of that and so we're meeting a lot of funds at this event here this week that are Focused on those different pieces and I think we'll continue to need to collaborate Around what we're seeing as far as success and failures using data as the real driver of that I Double-click on that like be intensely practical, right? Yes, right? And so if it's not helping you make a decision about What you should do next then it's you know, it it's sort of superficial I think that's true for ventures like what do you need to know? What do you need to be able to tell your product team tell your marketing team? Like how do you have more impact with the impact measurement data you're collecting and then for the investors? So also, you know that they should only be asking for data that helps them make decisions That's intensely practical practical for their own process for their ventures Otherwise, it's like vanity metrics and we don't need any of that. It's it's a waste of time Maybe to build on your point I think that one thing I'm seeing as a huge advantage of impact management and measurement in this in the start of space Is that I think that with a dearth of capital that we are starting to see I think companies are able to demonstrate that their products work and that they are having an impact and their products being like Efficient are gonna be able to raise easier capital than those who are not I Got another one that I think is coming from a point earlier, but really simple. How do we share data with more stakeholders? Yeah, so it really depends on context. So, you know to give a couple examples, so For service providers, there's something called care coordination. So that's a form of data sharing Provide you have good privacy controls in place and HIPAA and all that jazz So that's one form of data sharing to enable a set of service providers in a particular geography to coordinate care together This is quite mature in the healthcare space a lot of folks in social services public sector nonprofit And otherwise are looking at it and trying to figure out how to piggyback off of what health care is figured out around care coordination to share Data effectively when they're serving the same population. So that's one context of data sharing, right? So another context is at the organizational level So how might you get organizations in a context that are non competitive? They might be doing similar services But in different geographies to be able to share operational data to learn from each other potentially through a trade Association like how might trade associations get in the business of collecting impact data from their industry? That'd be awesome. They walk, you know, they walk the walk They understand the constraints that those businesses are under how might they actually become a useful constructive intermediary To help organizations start to learn from each other that are doing very similar lines of business It's only going to work in some of the cons and a certain context where they're not going to be competing against each other Those you know that happens all the time with other domains, right? With marketing analytics or you know all kinds of other stuff We should start looking at those models in the impact space to enable these kind of safe spaces for sharing data At the kind of enterprise level to drive performance improvement And then there's the investment scale. So, you know, Iris has got now kind of benchmarking efforts Jen is trying to get data sharing from among Iris reporting organizations to start to share data against with each other To be able to benchmark. That's great. It's early days and the benchmarking work But and that's more for kind of investor audience. Hopefully we see a lot more efforts and trials and experimentation in that respect Any thoughts on that? I got one No, I mean, I think the gym, you know, it's anonymized and aggregated That's how our benchmarks work is like that's where organizations get comfortable sharing is when Someone's not going to point the finger back at them So I think the more we can have sort of centralized organizations that are able to get anonymized aggregated data And then it's on us I don't know that we've done an amazing job at this to then share that more broadly, you know To make our benchmarks more visible to more people because even if you're not working with us to collect that data It provides like you're working in Microfinance in the Philippines like to have a benchmark available of like this is what? 30 different microfinance organizations like what their sort of impact measurement numbers look like That's really helpful as a guidepost as a you know way to move forward I think they want the one thing to add and just Thinking about how do we become my colleague is that we are at a phase in the impact investing spacing We don't need to sell anymore the industry I think that there is enough proof of concept that we've done over the past 12 years or so now We need to like be serious and like do open data sharing and like be more rigorous about it Like be just more frank with one another about what's working and what's not working because that's the only way We are gonna get to the next level and it's like not I am totally on board with your concept of sharing more data So we got only I think like two minutes left. So I want to close out with this kind of overarching question but What's something that you're most excited about or worried about if you want to be pessimistic But most excited about in terms of IMM going forward. I Can start with I think that is conviction Among both startups and investors and like LPs and like everyone in this room that there is a need to do impact measurement Management, and I think there is also a realization that is hard and that we need to be very practical Yeah, I'm just excited to see the momentum I mean this this has gone from a pretty loosey-goosey field to increasing rigor increasing Agreements, so I really credit IMP and Jin and some other leaders for really doing the hard work to get broad multi-stake or buy up multi-stakeholder buy-in around Terms and language and a lot of really boring stuff But that is profoundly significant when you start to add it up over the years And now it then that creates a virtuous cycle of building more trusts more buy-in Into the field and that brings in more dollars and then that provides more resources to get even more mature around this stuff So I think we're on an upward trend Again like the earlier speakers were saying I see the ESG pushback is awesome Like it's about time that they started noticing and and when they say ESG they mean a lot of things They don't even realize they mean So and I think that pushback is gonna keep coming the more we're winning so Yeah, and I'd say what I'm optimistic about is if the first like 10 plus years of this impact measurement Conversation were about what the investors thought we needed and the frameworks in the top down that the next 10 years Is about what are the ventures need what are the stakeholders on the ground say that we really start to Shift the conversation to where the impact is happening into those really understanding those outcomes Yeah, and I'll double down on that. I'm just excited that there's more people in this field I think on the podcast Kathy Clark mentioned 63,000 people. I think have taken her course. I mean that's amazing 63,000 people are learning in this space and that means that this is going to become a much more educated Conversation as we learn what's working and what's not working. So We are out of time, but I wanted to thank my panelists my fellow panelists for being with me And I know we didn't get to a lot of questions, but come find us. We want to chat about this topic We love it. So thanks for your time