 The grand local government autonomy will break up Nigeria. This is according to the Nigerian Union of Local Government Employees and River State PDP Governorship, Asparo and Fardagogo has been arrested. We have details of this with analysis right here on PlusTV on PlusPolitics. I'm Kofi Bartalos. The Nigerian Union of Local Government Employees, Norge, had recently warned politicians, especially governors, to free the local government tear of government, rather from her excruciating control of break Nigeria into pieces, and those were their words. The national president of Norge, Comrade Ambali or Latwingi said, quote, a message about autonomy for local governments in Nigeria is simply that the governors should either the local government give or allow local government autonomy or they break Nigeria into pieces. It's very important that joining us to discuss this is a national coordinator of democracy, Vanga John Mutu. John Mutu, thanks for joining us. Give us local government autonomy or break Nigeria up. That sounds a bit extreme. Do you agree with that school of thought? Yeah, I think I agree with that. I wouldn't subscribe to that when you say give us local government or break Nigeria into pieces. Pieces on what basis? I don't subscribe to that. And I think maybe he's saying that out of frustration. I don't think he meant it. Okay. All right. But is there a truth? Because I say too, there's no smoke without fire. And to every statement, there might be a truth. Is there a certain truth to this when we hear such a group, a very important body, say that if we do not have autonomy in the local government system, that the nation might break into pieces? Is there a possibility? And let's put aside the extremity of the statement. Is there a possibility? I think maybe what they meant was that maybe they are going to make the country ungovernable, especially at the state level. And like I said, it may be out of frustration. Ambali is the president of Nigeria. You don't have local government employees. They are workers at the local government level. They live in the local governments. They live at the communities. They feel the pulse of the people. And they also understand the frustrations of the people. So perhaps maybe, because I know that the advocacy for local government autonomy has been on for a while. I remember during the third alteration and the fourth alteration, this advocacy was there. Nigerians and maybe basically people at the community level had been advocating for the independence of the local government. But we are also aware that the governors to a large extent have never supported that independence, even though the National Assembly had on two previous occasions made their recommendations. And when he went to the state assemblies, they didn't vote in favor of it. So I think he knows what he's talking about. They've been engaging with the state governors. They rallied around. They've got to travel around. They've got to have met with governors. And they understand what they are saying. But like I said, I won't subscribe to that kind of extreme measures. And I think we'll continue to engage and let the governors and other stakeholders who are opposed to local government autonomy series and free the local government. All right, so it's been a very, very tough period for the country with different agitations. I'm sure we don't want any other thing to lead to the break of Nigeria for another conflict, can we? But it's become really, really difficult. I mean, I know that in Kanduna State, NASA L5 has done his best to allow the local government free hand, especially financial autonomy. Some governors have reasons for being really sit tight, as far as the financials are concerned. Do you understand why some state governors will want to be in control of the finances of the local government? Okay, thank you so much. I think I've followed this discussion for some time and I've been actively involved in this discussion. And just recently I was in a burden for a conference of the speakers and the state governor was invited to that forum. And one of the things he said was that if local government are granted autonomy, urban-based local government areas will not be able to pay wages of local government workers. They have the opinion that the federation allocation to local government is not sufficient to take care of the needs and just even the labor or the wage bill of the local government. So the state government is saying that if they are given autonomy, there will be chaos. They won't be able to provide the essential services. They won't even be able to take care of the wages. And as of today, what they are telling us is that the state government augments the wages, augments the shortfall that comes to the local government. Once they free them, they won't be able to take care of the local government. And I specifically also said that especially urban-based local government. And I had cause to challenge that. There are urban-based local government, there are also rural-based local government. Rural-based local government have their own peculiar challenges. They don't have access to pipe bomb water. They don't have access to good roads. They don't have access to good health center. So their challenges are peculiar. And some of them are quite large. And quite large, yeah, with their own peculiar challenges. Sometimes far apart from the rural and the urban centers. So getting access to essential services is a challenge. Whereas the local government are supposed to provide those basic, minimum municipal services. But if you now, because the money is from the federation account, is paid into a bucket called the joint account allocation committee. From that account, the state government now start to rationalize them. Taking money for the rural-based local government to augument shortfalls in the urban-based local government. In my view, that means, meant robbing Peter to pay Paul. Why will you take money meant for rural local government to now augument shortfall for state government when their peculiarities are different? And the local government are also saying, free us. It's our challenge. You cannot love us more than us. Allow us, just try us for you see and see if we are not able to take care of our own issues. And recently, Nolge did an analysis of how much comes from the federation account and how much is the wage bill. To ask of the local government. It made, it completely put a lie to that assertion that if, they are granted autonomy, they will not be able to pay their local government. So that's not true. And one very important thing- What was the finding of that analysis? What was the finding that the wage bill was not as big and impossible to meet? It shows that the allocation, the allocation in most cases far outweighs the wage bill. And it is not a case of the other way, right? And even at that, if state government augumenting shortfall for local government, it is for the benefit of the entire state. If the local government are effective, they are functional. The state government is also freed from other pressures. So why wouldn't you want the local government to remain independent, be able to provide a chance of services? Like you mentioned, Kaduna. Kaduna is one example of where local government have been given access to their fund and they have been able to manage the account. You can see, go to Kaduna, you see, local government chamber constructing roads, building hospitals. You go to Jigawa, where they also enjoy that relative autonomy. You see them constructing roads and providing essential services. But go to other local government, and also River State is another example of where local government are building roads and providing essential services. So we've tried to extremes. For the past 22 years, we've been trying local government under the April struggle of the state government. Why don't we try something different? So you're saying in River State, for instance, local governments are empowered to do their tournaments. We have seen evidence and Nolga has also provided a series of evidence to show that local governments are able to provide municipal services. It may not be to the extent that we would, but the state government also complement what they are doing. And that way, if the three steers of government, the federal, state and local government are working effectively, citizens will benefit. But when it is only the federal and the state, and local government are rendered redundant, then the people at Aurora may continue to suffer and pressure bring, it's on the state and the federal government. John, the Nigerian constitution is quite clear when it comes to the functions of the various steers of government in Nigeria. You're very well aware of this, you know, the federal government, the state government and the local government. I mean, local governments have certain functions enshrined in constitution. And I want us to look at these functions, and I mean, apart from the wage bill, carrying out these functions whether they can effectively, not just about the fiscal responsibility of carrying out these functions, but also the administrative and structural and technical responsibility. We look at, for instance, roads. Roads, if we were to see local governments and back on road construction, you know, to level the category of roads they're meant to, can they adequately? I mean, I have seen local government chairman in different parts of the country construct roads that you will not be proud of. And you know that this particular road that a local government chairman is constructing that a state governor will never construct such a road in that local government area. We look at infrastructure development, certain categories of infrastructure. You look at markets, for instance. You look at parks and maintenance of parks, water and sewage. The waste collection is not a function of any state government. Waste collection is a function of a local government in the constitution. Even animal management, pet registration, abattoirs, what we call slaughter in this part of the world, they're meant to do that as well. And these are very, very important. Can they, even provision of health facilities, you know, at that level, at the primary level, local governments are meant to do that. When you look at all these things, we don't know how. And did they take out capacity and, you know, meant to get, can they, sufficiently money aside? Capacity, can they carry these functions out? Unfortunately, you cannot put money aside. It is the money that they are going to use to perform these functions. You remember before 1999, local government were performing those functions. But with the advent, maybe the return to democracy, right, with the joint account allocation committee, with the current practice, you see that gradually, local governments have become stifled and they've rendered, you know, ineffectual. If the resources are there, they will build capacity. So what you're talking about is a capacity issue. It is the resources that will make them to be able to employ the right engineers, the right manpower, the right supervisors to provide those services. They may not be at the same level with the states. They may not be at the same level with the federal government, but they are able to provide feeder, rural feeder rules. They are able to provide coverage. Toward quality, toward quality. In terms of the capacities, what I'm talking about. It is the because of the absence of such empowerment that has made the National Assembly, federal government, coming to build, right, coming to start doing boreholes at the community level. That function has been hijacked. And once you hijack that function and you don't allow them to grow, their capacity to perform that function, they will become weaker. But what I'm saying is that give them the mandates, give them the resources that over time their capacity will be built. Waste collection. Yes. If we look at Lagos, for instance, if we're to leave, because this is what it ought to be. The state government has no business in Lagos state or any say collecting waste and collecting the rent or the taxes or whatever. But imagine leaving waste collection in Lagos state to the local community. They go to Kosofe, they collect the waste. You go to a mode of they collect the waste. You go to any other, will Lagos work? Could it work? Do they have the capacity? I assure you, the first question is that, why did the framers of the constitution, right, bring the local government into existence? In the democratic system, the whole idea is to bring governance closer to the people. If you have a local government, the chairman or that local government council's focus is on their immediate environment, right? Kosofe, local government that you mentioned, for instance, they had the waste collection emphasis will be only within that municipality. Other local government chair will also focus on their own municipalities. When you decentralize waste collection, it becomes more effective. But when you centralize it and only the state government agency perform that function, they will not be able to perform it effectively. And like I said, don't forget, local government have been performing these functions before now. Nigeria gained independence in 1960. Was that not, I mean, a different era? No, it's the same local government. It's the same people. Do we have the same capacity, the same qualified persons manning local governments like we had years ago? You're pre-99, even if you go to 92. Yes, can I ask you, sir? What has happened is because the resources for people to perform their function has been seized, right? Local government have now become resource, maybe salary payments centers. The chairman of the local government now live in the state capital. Councilors have moved from the local government to the state capital. Nobody is at the local government. And these are the same people you want to be collecting refuge. Why have they done that? Why have they moved? It's because there is no activity. There is no resources to perform any function. And once there is no work and there is so much pressure, there is no money to perform the function. They flee. What I'm trying to say is that what has changed is the same people in 1992 or before, the same endurance are still there. But once there is no resources, the right people will not want to come and contest for local government chairmanship. Who want to fail? Will I want to come and be a local government? I know that I won't have the resources to perform. And that is why they will continue to bring in their own in a surrogate that will come and sit. Who don't even have the capacity that they are responsible to turn alone. And that is why in most states they don't even want to conduct local government elections. They want to use political appointees who will not question them. And these political appointees are only accountable to their appointor. But if there are elected officials, and that is one of the recommendations of the constitutional amendment, that only democratically elected officials should be allowed to manage local government. That way they can be accountable to the people. Only local government that have elected officials will have access to funds. So if a state refused to conduct local government elections, the federal government would not release money spent for local government. But you use a fantastic word, which is surrogates. And some would argue that even with conduct of elections, it doesn't change anything. That's true. Of course we're used to the era of Ketika Committee chairman. Ketika local government chairman, which was as well, which is alien actually to Nigeria's constitutional laws. Look in the study of the elections, the local government elections in various states would reveal that actually there are no elections. In fact, in several states, Bakaduna, which I'm aware of, the opposition in the state does not even care to spend money contested in local government elections. You agree with that? Because the winners are already determined to have elections. Of course. And then you have the state electoral commission domiciled under the government. So someone would say until, do you agree with those who say until we have free and fair elections and probably the conduct of the local government elections taken away from the state government and placed in the hand of INEC. Any law-needed legislation for local government autonomy is just a smoke screen, really. It's not to work. Okay, let me put it this way. There are three levels. One is financial independence. Let them manage their funds. Let's hold them to account. Two is administrative independence. Only elected officials with councillors with the mandate of the people, supposedly, whether it is rightly or maybe, but at least they have a mandate. Should be allowed. So that is administrative independence. The third question is how leadership emerges. Who conducts the election? Is it free and fair? Those are the three questions you're talking about. When, unfortunately, I was part of the process, right? The constitutional amendment process. And the advocacy for that. From beginning, NOLGI, NUT, and all of them were saying that it is all or nothing. That we want administrative independence. We want financial independence. We want local government elections to be severe completely from the federal, state government and given to INEC. But in the course of the engagements, it was, we realized that it was going to be difficult to get all the three. There were said- Were the governments fighting back? Of course, definitely. Including even the legislators that will vote. So we had to meet them halfway. Because they are saying that this is a democracy. There are three democracies that local governments are part or appendages of the state government. There was this fear that if I may conduct local government election, the federal government will start controlling local government and will be using them against state governments. So we now see that is your fear. Let's meet you halfway. If not halfway, 70%. Grant them financial autonomy. Grant them administrative autonomy. Let's get these ones for keep. Then we can continue the advocacy for the third leg. Army are an apostle of incremental change. They were happy with that. So the state assemblies will still have supervisory control over the local government so that they don't abuse it. That's why we agreed. So grant them the financial autonomy now. Each local government should bear his name. It is easier for communities and local government people to hold their local government chairman account knowing that 100 million was released to them. They're going to hold the government accounts. But if you put it excellently, financial autonomy, administrative autonomy and then elections being free and fair and the will of people being exercise. But some would argue that, and this is my observation, that as long as the governor of a state determines who becomes local government chairman, and we've seen what is playing out in a real estate with somebody who was not meant to be there, you know, or indeed it was not needed as the screening. He popped up and he was arrested. In some states where you have a governor being politically strong, you won't call it that. You don't buy your form, party form you don't buy. When he decides who wants to run, he, they will buy the form, they will give it to you. So you didn't put yourself there. Now, when you know that he pays the piper, when the money comes in, that financial autonomy, do you think that in the true sense of the word, they can say, ah, we have financial autonomy. Oh, God, you can't touch this money. If he says, send the money here, or you can't spend it without me. I'm sure they couldn't do otherwise. Yes, I think, like I said, we can't change the world in one day, and you can't solve all the problems in one day. Let's keep chopping the problems gradually. We'll get to this. But in effect, in effect, the administrative and if there is no electoral independence. Hold on, sir. Sir, the administrative autonomy and the financial autonomy that you are touting would basically be on paper. Okay, let me give you the paper. What will you want? Will you want to say, because we don't have electoral independence, we should also leave the money, leave the instability in the local government? No, at least let's get 70% now and continue to fight for the remaining 30. As of today, it's either we change what is on ground now, or we don't attempt it at all. And I tell you, the governors are enjoying the status quo. They don't even want to move, leave, and inch. We are saying that, look, we may not change the world overnight, but let's start somewhere. And that somewhere is that. Release this money. As of today, the minister for finance when she's releasing the money, the money is paid into a joint account. Who is in control of the account? It's the state government. We are saying that let each local government have statutory account. So that once the money comes into that account, Nigeria and everybody know who to hold responsibility. Local government channel will not say we were not giving money. The money has been given to you. That's number one. Number two, we are also saying that they let their best ability in the channel of local government. You remember, right now, a lot of state are conducting local government even when they know that they are in transition. And once APC, for instance, is an APC state, conduct local government at the end of it. They are the win. At the end of the election, let's say a PDP governor comes in. He dissolves all the local government and conduct his own local government. We want to stop that. We have to move. But Kwame Krumai was who said on the night of independence of Ghana, that the independence of Ghana as a first black nation, Southern South Guinea, is meaningless unless it is linked up with the total liberation of the African continent. So the point I was trying to make is that the financial autonomy and the ministerial autonomy is meaningless unless they have electoral independence. That is why I'm saying that I don't want to say use the word meaningless. We have to go. It may not be as effective as we want it. Ineffective, all right, all right. Thank you very much for your time, John Moutibou. We will be speaking with our next guest. In John Moutibou, we see a national coordinator of Vangard, a democracy of Vangard. We'll be back and where we return. We talk about the interesting events unfolding in River State and the governorship screening with the People's Democratic Party. Stay with us.