 Mae'n gweithio i gweld yr unig iawn. Byddwn wedi gweld ei wneud y bwysigol ychydig i ysgolio'r sgol yma. Rwy'n meddwl, a llwyddo'r can. Byddwn ni wedi'i gwneud megun yn y Daidangol, ond rydyn ni'n gallu sgol, rydyn ni'n gallu sgol ac mae'r cyfnodd ei gwybodaeth i gwaith ymlaen nhw i ddaeth yng nghymru yn ei ddechrau yn ddefnyddio'r neud. Mae'r ddechrau yn ei ddod oherwydd, wrth ymlaen nhw'n ei ddweud, ond mae'n siarad unigfod yw'r sorgfeydd ac mae'r ydych chi'n amleth am gweithio'r ei fod ddargiadau. The way she's worked before, she's currently the shareperson of Node.js. So she's also been in an open source role at PayPal, she's been on the Bill and Linda Gates Foundation helping them with open source She's actually been in Open source since, well, since 1999. I think without further ado, she's crossed about five time zones in the last however long it takes to get here from Los Angeles. She's literally landed, got in the taxi, came straight here just to come and speak to us. Felly mae'n cael eu cyfnod oed yn chi'n gynllunio dynes Cwpyr ar hyn o'r fath o'r dda. Mae'n ddod y gallwn wedi'u gweld ymlaen i'n gweithio. Felly mae'n gwybod i'n gweithio'n ddweud ar hynny. Mae'n gweithio'n llai. Mae'n ddweud i gyd yn ddweud o'r cwpyr ac oed yn gwirio'r ddweud. Efallai efallai eithaf i chi oedd y Cymlu Oscom yn rhan o'r gweithio? Ac ydych chi? Rwy'n gwaith, a rydyn ni'n gweithio eich mod i'r slide'n ystod. Rydyn ni'n mod i'n mod i'n meddwl i'r ddweud. Ar ddiwedd y gallwn ni, ond yn ychydig ychydig i ddweud ddwy ar yr event, rydyn ni wedi bod nes ystod. Ymhwych. Rwy'n gobeithio'n gweithio'r ddweud o'r ddiweddol i'r ddod o'r mwyth. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'r ddweud. I want you to know I gimped that OSI logo in myself. It was my one gimp job this year. Okay, so this is here because this is a talk about sustainability in open source. And about your role as open source developers in keeping open source healthy. So we have to first acknowledge and you hear this a lot right now that we won to the extent that it used to be the case that people didn't take us very seriously. And now they kind of do. So that was good. It feels good to me anyway. So now we have this massive influx of new developers. And they're coming from very traditional sources and they're also young, younger than you, believe it or not. And they all expect code to be transparent. So we did that. Everybody expects code to be transparent now. But there's a lot of stuff that doesn't come along with that tiny little soundbite code to be transparent that went into making open source happen. And so this is a little bit of education about what came before. And some of you are going to know this stuff already because you've been here. But I give this presentation around the world and a lot of times I have a whole room full of people that this is all new news for. And it is a special version of this for India that you have probably remembers with people from the Indian movement. But this is sort of the Western version. So first I want to say that the new influx of people that we're getting, they are not battle tested. They take it for granted. They don't get it yet that there used to be an adversarial relationship between companies and open source. And they tend to want to optimize for the BCs to be happy, which is a dangerous thing, right? So I want to talk about why that's dangerous. And by the way, this content is going to be about half of the time that I have and then we're going to have a conversation. So if anything I'm saying is making you go, wait a minute, I want to talk about that. Pull that so that we can talk about it when we get there. So there's a big question of whether you work for love or money. How many of you work for love? Good. See how easy it is in the West to put your hand up, right? Because the money kind of comes along. In a lot of places, those are separate things still. In open source, it definitely was separate for a long time. Now the good news is now after 20 years of open source, we know because there have been studies that, you know, published that show us that we make about 30% more than your average developer, open source developers. And that's because we're willing to show our code, which kind of automatically means we're better. So yay that, right? But every time I say that, I get a tweet from somebody who goes, wait a minute, I'm down in the bells of my organization and I'm not getting paid more. And so I've been thinking a lot about how to help people elevate themselves because you have to bootstrap yourself in this world, right? So the thing about meritocracy, which is a word that is falling out of favour right now, because it implies a sort of patriarchal attachment to who's on top and who's beneath. But the reason we started talking about that was because it was, we saw it as a ladder for people to get to the place they were trying to go directly through their own work. So we need to come up with a better word that doesn't trigger people, but the idea of you are bootstrapping yourself here. There's no, nobody's going to give you anything in the open source world that you didn't earn. And you have to know that, right? The other thing that troubles me about the new recruits, aside from this lover money question, because they tend to be focused on the money, is, did I get my next slide yet? Yeah, they don't know when to push back. They don't know what those boundaries feel like. And by the way, when I put the slide up, he was still the president. And he might still be in my mind. So they don't know what rights they have. They haven't stood in their own power yet. And that's really my message. If you just take one message from this talk today, open source developers need to stand in our power, because we have a ton of it. And I want to talk about some people who did that before you, and a little bit about what I mean when I say that, okay? We stand on the shoulders of giants. We should say that all the time in open source. I don't hear it as often as I used to. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about the giants first, or at least the ones that I think were the giants whose shoulders were standing on. So call them out if you know these people. Anybody know this one? Anybody at all? This is Bill Joy. So Bill Joy, yeah, you're making a face, right? Bill Joy, in the late 70s, early 80s, decided to rewrite UNIX from scratch. He was at Cal. They had a brand new PDP and UNIX didn't run on it. And he thought, well, I want to play with UNIX on this new cool machine. I'll just make it run on this machine, right? And that project became BSD, which stands for Berkeley Source Distribution. Now imagine the hubris of a grad student going, I'll just rewrite that UNIX thing that just took Bell Labs 20 years to develop, right? He did such a good job, and one of the lessons of open sources, it's always easier to do it again, right? He did such a good job that for many years, if you wanted to run UNIX on your little home micro system, there were a lot of people in Silicon Valley that had little ISPs in their garage, and they'd have a little mini vax or something, and they needed a version of UNIX that they could run on that thing. So you would buy a license from AT&T Bell Labs, you'd send them $35,000. They would send you a bunch of tapes and a license, and you would throw the tapes in the trash and send the license in fax off to him, and he would send you the tapes you were really needed. This went on for a long time. That's Bill Joy. He later found the Sun Microsystems with Scott McNeely. He's a rich guy now, but he wasn't at the beginning, right? Okay, how about this one? Yeah, I'm glad you guys didn't fail this very easy question. So for those of you who may not know, which was nominated about the same time that Bill Joy was rewriting UNIX, Stallman was getting angry at his university because they locked him out of the system that he had written while he was a grad student there. He eventually graduated, but being Stallman, he wanted to keep going every day to the computer center and typing, and they eventually added passwords so that people wouldn't do that, and that locked him out and that really pissed him off. So much so that he envisioned the entire new universe. And because of who he is, how he is, he thought it was reasonable to rewrite the whole stack in a way that it was always going to be free. You have to admire that. It's an amazing amount of, you know, hwtzfa to pull that off. He is a singular force still in our world. He does not use the web to this day. I'm not sure what he uses to read the email, but it might be pine. But, you know, he is a very, very principled person and I think you all know that he's an iconic last. Okay, how about this guy? Come on. Very prominent web language predated Drupal for building websites. Still exists today, but it's been a while since a new version. There was a version problem for long time. You guys liked Drupal, you took a while. This is Larry Wall and he wrote Drupal. Larry Wall is a religious guy who assumed that he was going to have to learn to speak another language, human language, in order to go on do missionary work. So he took a degree in linguistics. And then later he got interested in computers. And that's why Pearl was written as a linguistic language, not as a machine language. The thing that Larry did that was so interesting to me is he built a community that was very similar to the Drupal community in that it had pretty high proportions of women. And he was, as a leader, very interested in having women be at the top. So women like Allison Randall that he brought up and made the president of the foundation. He has daughters. He wants to see a world where there isn't any difference. And actually, lucky us, Greece is that way too. Anyway, I think Larry is an interesting one to know about. This next guy, anybody? No, this is Ian Murdoch. He started the Debian project. Debian stands for Debra with his wife. Debra Murdoch and Ian Murdoch, Debian. He had a total vision of how this Linux thing that, you know, Linux was tinkering with could actually become a usable distro. Because it was a toy for a long time. The Debian community actually dug in to try to make it real, if you will. The Debian community, has anybody ever been to a DevCon here? These are wild conferences. They're first of all, they're two weeks long. They're always in some weird place, usually connected to a university. But one of the things about them that's wild is the first whole week, they publish a schedule. But when you actually go to the conference, the time comes for that keynote and the guy goes, no, no, I'm not ready yet. And they punt it to later in the schedule. And they keep punting and keep punting. They hang out every night drinking and playing crazy anarchist card games. But they're also hacking on Debian. The real reason they get together is so they can hack in person on Debian. And this community is still really vibrant, really interesting. Unfortunately, we lost in Christmas time last year. And he went far too young. So, okay, how about this one? Isn't he here? Doesn't he look like a kid? This is Brian Bellendorf. So he started Apache with some other people. His deal was he was a student at Cal and he's a DJ, like techno DJ. And it was illegal to throw rave parties in the Bay Area because they lived through the 60s in LSD and they just weren't going to go there again when the rave things started. They were like, no, we're not doing this. So in order to, you were an outlaw if you were throwing a party. So you did not want the cops to know where your party was. Therefore, you needed control of a web server. And most everybody, the only web servers they had was AOL. So that's not, there was no where near enough control there. So he started dinking around with the crumbs that Mark Andreessen left when he did his graduate work. And then he started meeting other people that were dinking around with the same crumbs. And because of who he is, he pulled them together, invited them all to come to his house. His wife made spaghetti, 13 of them. One of them was Ben Horry, who lives here in London and is right now trying to fix the NHS. It's a long story, but anyway. And he created this thing. It's called Apache because it's a patchy web server because everybody was patching it. And then they had to deal with the fact that the Apache nation was not really troubling. But I mean, this guy, right? He was never more than a sys admin in his professional programming life. But then he grew up to be on the cover of Forbes and he was the World Economic Forum's CTO. And right now he is the executive director of the Hyperledger project, which is a big deal blockchain thing. They've got hundreds of sponsors. He's talking all over the world. Okay, how about this one? She's a girl. She's got weird hair. No? This is Mitchell Baker. So she's the general manager of Mozilla. So here's my Mitchell Baker story. She was a lawyer. She wrote the license. Mozilla license. She found it really interesting as a project. Mozilla was the first corporate donation of code into the open source space. And they did a lot of interesting things to try to convince us to trust them, when a manly, right? Where us is the people that aren't working for Mozilla. And a lot of that stuff plays through even to this day. But she became the general manager of the Mozilla division of Netscape because of her interest in this idea of collaborative development, even though she was stepping out of legal to wrangle a bunch of programmers. And in fact, her job title is Lizard Wrangler to this day. And then Erwell Bot Netscape. And they had an idea of how they were going to use this widely used, widely available product that Mozilla was, right? And she kept vetting their changes through the community process that was already established, which really confused them. Because they were used to do, as we say, not what do you mean we have to get the community to agree that this is a good idea. But she kept doing the community process because she knew it was important. So they decided that she was the problem. They couldn't get stuff done because of her. So they fired her. And because it was California, she was a vice president and a lawyer. She had written what's called a parachute into her agreement. So she had several weeks of pay, whether or not she was working there. So she dusted herself off and she went home and she kept running the project from her house. And all the engineers kept referring to her. And so then I was like, okay, we get it. We get it. We're just going to pull the plug. She called me up one day at Sun and said they're pulling the plug. We were in the middle of suing Microsoft for any competitive practices. We needed a free browser. And so I called IBM. We pulled together some funding. IBM's lawyers went in a strong-armed AOL and convinced them to give up the IP to a new foundation called Mozilla Foundation. And that is how the Mozilla project got free of Netscape because she refused us to give up. Okay, one more. It's the last one. Anybody? You have his books. I promise you. That's Tim O'Relley. And the reason he's here in this list is because he... I don't know. People don't seem to know very much about Tim these days. I think of him as this rich guy, right? He rents his company. But Tim was the son of immigrant parents. His father was a doctor. He was actually born in Ireland, Colony Ireland. And they immigrated to Boston. And he went to the best school in the area. He went to Harvard. But he studied classics because at heart he's a writer. And then he fell in love with a woman who was older, Jewish, and had been divorced. And that was not okay in his Catholic family. He's the oldest kid, right? So he was basically kicked out of his family. He's written about this. I'm not telling tales exactly. But he moved with her to California. And they started O'Relley to just write about this internet thing and UNIX and the underpinnings of UNIX. And based on that little beginning, they created arguably the best instructions we have come from them. When I worked for son, they were really, really puzzled about why O'Relley's Java books sold so much better than the books that they were writing. And it's because they think like people who are trying to learn something but have a programming background. And he coined the term open source. But more importantly, he held meetings for years to pull people together. And when the fork happened in Pearl, there was a big fork in Pearl at the beginning, the dawn of the web, he personally spent both money and time to fix that fork because he could see that although the right to fork is key to open source, you don't want it to happen ideally, you know. So he taught me a lot about open source. Anyway, here's a roundup of the history. And this is all before 2003. Mozilla is the last thing on there. So we have BSD starting in 77 a little bit later. We have the GNU foundation. Richard actually started earlier than that, but that's when the foundation happened. And then Pearl, then the UNIX. BSD becomes a real project in the Toto's Demian, SS, PHP up there, and Apache. But it's not yet a foundation. That's just the web server. Then we have the OSI in 1998. That's when the term was coined. So before that, all of that was free software. Then Apache becomes a foundation. Mozilla becomes a project. That's Tor, which I think is key. We should all be paying attention to it. And then Mozilla becomes a foundation. I think it's important for you guys to know this stuff. One more guy I want you to know is this one. This is Josh Bergus. He works on post graphs. The reason he's interesting is he's an example of the chutzpa that you can muster just in your daily life. So he wrote this article while he was still working for Sun about how to destroy a perfectly good open source community. It's still up there and it's an interesting read because all the stuff that he wrote about still happens. But he was writing about the company he worked for. That shows some chutzpa. Now I'm going to tell you a little bit about companies we're going to switch gears because that whole lever money thing is a big issue. First of all, companies optimize for profit. Most of them. We used to say they were legally required to do that. I've recently learned that that's not actually true and yet most companies run that way as though that was actually what they have to do. But they also really, really like to control things. They like to throw up a smoke screen of we are really important, right? And you have to know that that happens when you're dealing with them. And the thing is that even some of our best friends have to be reminded that that's not okay in open source, right? So this is Red Hat very famously stopped publishing the code to RHEL even though it was all under GPL. And then somebody very helpfully reversed compiled it for them as a CentOS project. And they were pretty upset about it for a little while and then they realized thanks to Michael Teimann that they really had to support it. And they do now, right? So it's important that we keep the companies around us honest and you know there are some companies in the Drupal world that can use that messaging from time to time. I personally think that open source does not need to be edited. I think it's already a masterpiece, right? I don't think we need to come up with a new way to open source anything. I don't think we need adjectives on open source. Like corporate open source, you know? It's just open source. When I worked on the OSI board every single new license that we got was somebody seeking a carve out for their special business needs. And we rejected all of them. There are no special business needs. Open source is already a masterpiece and you need to fit into it. It's not going to fit into you. Tim O'Reilly took me to a meeting with the first head of homeland security at the USA sometime in the 90s. He was unclear about what the requirements that they were talking about were going to be. He'd been invited because of who he is but he didn't know the words and so he asked me to go with him and what they were talking about was bringing Linux up to NSA security standards. And the guy who later famously leaked a bunch of stuff in them wrote a book. His name was Richard Clark. He came into the meeting. He was late. He was really brusque. And then he kept saying, you Linux people to us. Because we said, so, this is your meeting. What is it that you want to talk about because it's not like we got an agenda. And he said, you Linux people are doing the wrong thing here. You're not making Linux secure enough for us. And he was sort of going on in that vein. And I finally stopped him and said, first of all, we are not you Linux people. You Linux people, the ones you think you're pointing at are all mostly in Europe. I mean, there are Linux engineers in the US but mostly not so much. They're mostly in Europe because Linux was still in Europe at this point. And also they're not going to fix it for you. You have to fix it for yourself. If you want to use Linux, you need to make that happen. They don't care if you use it or not. And this was just this... for him, right? You have to be able to do that. On the way out of that meeting, Tim was like, I am never taking you to another one of these people. But I like to think that... Tim is really conciliatory. He told us years ago, Microsoft's going to wake up one day and we're going to have to figure out how to be gracious in victory. Which I'm working on. But he really wants me to work on that because he believes this idea actually is pretty cool. Anyway, I think that open source is a masterpiece. So does this guy. This is a picture of Dries about the time I met him. So I've known Dries a long time. And part of why he invited me on the board when they were trying to professionalize the board was because he was looking for people with some experience of how other companies or other foundations had solved some things. I've served on a lot of boards over the years. So that's mostly what I've been bringing to the Drupal Board when I sit in board meetings. Pretty much every time a crisis happened, it's happened to somebody at some point and I either know about it or I can find somebody who had to live through that. So Drupals had the benefit. They're standing on the shoulders of giants. They had the benefit of the previous experience. What I love about Drupal is the community. That whole Come for the Code and Stay for the Community, I think that is so strong and I think that the Drupal community would be well advised to continue to embrace that. That's why you guys like to be here for a weekend. You just gave up a weekend because it's fun to hang out with your friends who like Drupal. That's how come you're so successful. So remember that community thing. That's really key, but also I want you to realize that. Come on. You're blowing my timing. Still wrong direction. There we go. You guys are superheroes. Open source developers are superheroes and you have to know that. You have to stand in your power. You have to speak truth to people who are blowing it. And you know what blowing it looks like. Now, I know you guys are British and this is hard. Think about parliament, right? They scream at each other all the time. They scream, but I am suggesting that you stand in your power. You see something wrong and this can be as simple as somebody from a marginalized group is being bullied in the community. You can stand up for them. Somebody is creepy and it's creeping everybody out. You can try to send that message. Do you think a technical decision isn't right? You can speak up. You probably shouldn't just say that and I want to know. That's not an open source thing. What we say in Apache, there's three voting modalities. There's a zero. That means I don't really care. Do it if you're going to do it. There's plus one, which means yay, let's go there. There's minus one, which means you have to stop this vote now because I object because that's a consensus driven organization. But you can't just drop a minus one bomb. You have to say why. You have to support your argument. There's that. You have to know that you're superheroes and that it's up to you. A quick review of the things, this is your Rosetta Stone moment, the things that worry me about the sustainability of open source as a movement. This doesn't necessarily apply just to Drupal. First of all, I think transparency is non-negotiable. Anytime you see lack of transparency entering and as businesses want to hold value and things like that, we'll start pulling pieces of the stack and trying to keep them quiet and not share them out. Transparency is key. You have to fight for transparency. The next thing, as I said before, it's about people. Open source is people. If everybody in this room and everybody else that you've ever met at a Drupal event and the people that you haven't met yet, it's because Angie and Dries know that and that's just who they are. But we still have to keep watering that grass, right? The next one is companies think about open source as a strategic move. They don't have all of the love that we have for it, even the best companies. Fundamentally, there are no companies that are open source companies, not even Red Hat. There are companies that are good to their open source employees. It's a different thing, because open source is people, it's not corporations. So if you're not treating your open source developers right, then you're blowing it and somebody needs to speak up. I'm going to teach you a term now. You guys know this word? Funding ability. Let's all say it together. Funding ability. That is the idea. Here's what it looks like in practice. I have no idea if this is actually going to play. Oh, look at it. It did it as individual slides. This is the guy that's juggling and then the guy behind him comes around and takes the clubs and juggles too, as though they're interchangeable. That's what companies want to think of you as. Man, I'm really not getting along with Joe today. Well, that's okay, because Jim can do his job. That's fungibility. What I would like to maintain is that open source developers are not so fungible. One of the rights that we fought for was the right to work on interesting stuff. Stuff that's interesting to us. A lot of people that still don't do open source for their day job but are involved in open source projects, the reason they do the open source project is because their day job is really not that interesting. And so open source is where they have self-expression. But really, all of our engineering work should have more self-expression in it because we are artists. We are artists and superhero artists. We are not just cogs in a wheel. The tragedy of the commons is a real thing. That means that everybody's got to water the grass or the grass dies. And when I say everybody, I mean companies that use open source need to be encouraged and given painless ways to contribute and water the grass. Because without that it dies. There's still an awful lot of free-loaderism going on in open source. We talked about this a long time ago. And in Apache they generally feel like every company will eventually come around to realizing that tithing to open source is sort of a necessary part of the process. But it's definitely still not happening like it should. And then there's the whole money changes everything. So there are pay-to-play boards now. I actually serve on one. The Node Foundation Board is a pay-to-play board. That means companies buy seats on that board. And when I became the chair of the Node Foundation the first thing I did was change the bylaws to allow for community elections. We did this at Drupal as well. We want people on the board that have done nothing more than work hard on Drupal that have not spent any money necessarily getting that seat. Because that voice is an invaluable voice that you cannot get from the companies that are showing up. So I think pay-to-play boards are dangerous personally. I get why they happen because it's a way to force companies to tithe but I'd like to find a better way to get at that problem. At Apache the people that serve on the board are there because of their service not because of who they work for which I think is the way to do it. And then technology is key. We have to insist that the business stops trying to drive the direction of technology in every open source project. The best ones already do this but it needs to be more emphasized because if they were good at doing it open source wouldn't have won we need to have fight for that technology-versed way of looking at things. For younger oops I might have just screwed up for younger open source developers but yeah I did. They don't care about that argument I was showing a minute ago. Almost 20-year-old slide now that's Tim O'Reilly and Richard Stallman fighting about terminology. Younger developers coming in that the Cookie Monster wave this is the most boring conversation in the world to them so much so that they will not choose a license as recently as three years ago more than three quarters of the project did not have a license and that's because they hate this conversation we have to stop arguing about this. It's the same thing just get over it I think that being a member, a paying member remember all that stuff about patronage being a paying member of OSI is something that everybody should do in the open source world that's because they are working on this very conversation that we've been having in a project called beyond licensing you don't need to know this URL you can just go to OSI and look for beyond licensing what we're trying to do is come up with a kind of OSD 2.0 that is the minimum ways that a given project behaves that makes it also open source so the licensing is pretty clear now not much has changed in the last 15 years on licensing front and OSI is just known for that cranking out the no on the licensing changes but we're trying to get into or they are trying to get into a place where they look more deeply at the behaviors that make open source communities really successful and from everything I know about Drupal it'll do well in that conversation this is the obligatory they pay for my plane tickets so I have to say thank you to PayPal for sending me these are the things we mainly talk about right now inner sources about using open source technology open source methods inside your company in order to fix your engineering problems any engineering team that is older than Google probably has some pretty old fashioned habits and so if anybody wants to talk to me about inner source afterwards I'd be very happy to talk to you that is my content so now I would pull a chair out somebody will do my thing hopefully and we're going to have a conversation so this is good that's fine it's just a chair okay somebody there we go Jams what a surprise thanks Anise one of the last things you said don't let businesses drive your technology decisions I contend this is a subtle difference here that I'd like to figure out for myself my own head volunteers burn out and I contend that any open source project that doesn't have a business model at least possible in it is going to die because we can't all volunteer when we have kids and when life happens right so we have that and then to me this is somehow combined with the freeloader problem of users so where's the so I think there's nothing wrong with companies paying people to work on open source projects there's nothing wrong with that as long as the company agenda is not foremost in that person's mind okay so there in the early days of open source companies trying to railroad de facto standards through by spending more on engineering than the next guy so that means that IBM practically always won because they can spend more than anybody or at least they could so and almost never where those quickly bought decisions good and the most recent one that we all remember in our near history is the whole fiasco over microsoft and the OOXML file format right which they they actually broke ISO like ISO is forever port now as a standards body because of what they did there because they bought their way into that decision and it was not a technical merit and you gotta love India man they filed a brief that was 375 individual technical problems with OOXML right so that's what I'm railing against I am not railing against individual companies employing people and giving them to a project to further it but what's important is that those developers who make that agreement with that company make it clear that they are serving the technology the decisions will be made based on what's the best technology not what the marketers think that they need that's all I'm pushing for okay yeah you're gonna make you work give me a big sauce Alex needs the answer sorry Alex I'll talk it into you so I talked to someone just the other day about how the web started Timburn's Lee's vision for the web but one of the Drupal cons I think it was Aril Barkin who was talking about we're at Crossroads now there's the Google Facebook they own large amounts of data large amounts of web essentially the closed web and the open web I think my question is how important is it for open source to continue the open side how can they do that right so it's actually even more depressing than you think because the part of the closed web is being enforced by the way that things get cashed right but governments are adopting that neutrality India are just representing democracy in the world you know adopting that neutrality as a key piece Obama did it of course and try to undo it in the US now the European Union has been looking at making that neutrality statement for a while and Mitchell Baker first talked to me about that neutrality in about 2003 or 2004 so people have been thinking about this for a long time the other big problem that the web is having right now is the standards that the W3C are in the name of security a lot of the decentralization of the web is being destroyed in the new specs in favor of points of control and the big companies that you mentioned I'll imagine that they are going to be the point of control or that they'll be a federated point of control with certain towers of saran all bad ideas and I've heard Timbal argue in favor of a distributed web I've heard Brewster Cale make the same argument Vint Cerf makes that argument I actually just agreed to help co-produce the 2019 worldwide web conference in San Francisco and it's the 30th anniversary of the first proposition of the web as a thing and the reason that I agreed to do it is I think there's an important conversation to have about centralization versus decentralization and the only way I can think of to do it is to do it right in the middle of the heart of the mass and put as much sunlight on it as I possibly can so that is the thing you should be arguing about a safe web is decentralized it is and when I say safe I mean possible for safety to happen that the single points of control thing we know is a fragile architecture and we're about to go through our country and your country a whole period of people who don't get it trying to explain it or trying to make laws about something they don't really understand so it's up to us because the people that we had in Washington and here just lost their jobs in the new world order and so it's up to us personal activism in a way what's happening politically is kind of the open sourcing of politics because we have to stand in our power there too before it gets out of hand does that help? Yeah I think the whole Arab Spring that happened showed power of the web for good but then recent fake news censorship and showing results, data sets that are actually being significantly influenced that direction is very worried. Well one of the things that's really heartening in what's happening in the US is that we're starting to see real journalism finally I mean there was a period of time a month and a half ago, two months ago when the best news source for certain kinds of news was Teen Vogue magazine it was pretty sad and now G2? I know, right? and Cosmo because they called out Ivanka but the New York Times and the Washington Post are both starting to wake up again, yay let's make them work for their Pulitzers okay and by the way call out your bad media here please please call out your bad media and yay Wikipedia Wikipedia So very much in keeping with what you've just been saying there is a political thought that we are into what's called a post capitalist situation where large corporations no longer because they cannot control information and open source and because automation is going to take away so many jobs that we will have to transition to a new society where universal basic income pays most people open source becomes how it's done a viable thing because people can work in open source and get paid by UBI what's your thought on that? I'm a big fan of the UBI mostly because it falls in line with the future that we all came to love in the 60s thanks to Gene Roddenberry I mean we wanted a world where human thought and potential could be spent solving real problems instead of where's my next meal coming from so I'm a big fan of it but I also love to work so I have a hard time putting myself in the position of people who might want to just slide on that but then I also value work differently than a lot of people so I have a friend who lives in Ireland who has been a full time busker for 40 years that means he lives below the poverty line but he's comfortable doing that because he lives from music he thinks he makes a comfortable living he's pretty happy with the money he makes he pays taxes it's mostly under the table money but he goes ahead and declares it and pays taxes that's because he wants to support the system when he for whatever reason can't work which has happened a few times he's got the doll and that's enough to keep body and soul together and so he feels secure he can express himself and I think better humanity by bringing music into people's lives we have had there's lots of things broken in what we value in human endeavour at this point and I think we are going to go through a really interesting rough patch while it sorts itself out and the real problem is of course corporate personhood as we have it now means that there's going to be a lot of flailing before that finally falls over I'm hopeful that the European Union can somehow because they have much stricter requirements than anywhere else in the world for benevolent corporate action they require it so that people actually do it I'm hopeful that that's going to help move people in the right direction I don't see it happening in the US or here in Britain as much as I would like to see I mean all you have to do is look at the whole refugee problem and what a thrash that's been or in my own country you know I attempt to try to keep people from walking across our borders which is so in America and it's ridiculous yeah but I'm a liberal you know I'm going to go out and find two more thanks do you like this part by the way I'm willing to stay a little later if you all want to talk about it sorry guys thank you so much for this fashion for me it's something like hearing some story about my family and generation from my grandma I could be your grandma I am that old I never put anything serious other than the group of the community so it's basically to know it's good to have the history and I do have an Indian version of this if you want to hear that one because there were some serious heroes to bring open source into India anyway yeah my portion is basically I think few years back we spoke about this in one of the keynote when you grow when you are small obviously it's managed by community or volunteers and when you grow more then it's kind of become enterprise and then government take over he was comparing all open source product with how the roads are managed and stuff like that so currently what's happening in group of community basically all the organizations should contribute and obviously not all of them coming over to the community so some of them comes and there are volunteers who are doing independent from organization and whenever organizations come and they do it's basically become even though they do generate when you come and see it just feel like they are influencing it and as an individual I may not be having enough time all the time to see these things and when someone come and see they just feel like they influence so much this company X came and they did everything for their own product well there's that one company that does that not one it's an interesting problem for Dries he's having to walk both lines yeah and what happens is there will be a heated conversation between any individual and then the company as well for people like me they just don't want any of these fight because for me I like both sides I like the company as well as the individual I'm more like a kid you're one of those new kids see I told you the new kids go and close the door I love both of them and I don't make any comment because I don't know what I could say well you could say that you could say wow it really bumps my high when you guys fight like this yeah but no I think that would be valuable do you guys agree that would be a valuable comment sometimes the bickering gets to be too much but yeah so as open source gets bigger and we start pulling in cultures that weren't the first culture that got involved in open source were the first two or three we come up against new challenges and new interesting things so when I started talking about open source in India most of the people that I talked to were at pains to try to explain to me that you just have to get a job because that your parents are waiting for you to do that and the number of people that have enough disposable income in their family that they can afford not to just go into Accenture one of those companies, Whiprow or Infosys is pretty small but I've been going to speak about open source since 1999 and I'm seeing a huge shift all of a sudden as the middle cross rises in India all of a sudden kids do have that opportunity and so I used to go speak and I will again I'm sure at Symbiosis University in Pune do you know about them? so they're a liberal arts college on the western plan but they're in Pune and they're not an A school they're a B school except for certain key programs like their MIS department is very very good but they're not an IIT I would not hire somebody out of IIT I think that they're spoiled children they're told they're the best from the minute that they get accepted and they're very hard to work with because of that I really like people who are scrappier than that and have had to work harder but the thing I love about Symbiosis they were the first school in India both wifi in every building and every single student had a laptop and all of a sudden they had disposable time because they're living with the laptop it's not something that lives in an office and they go visit it it's actually in their dorm room they have time to work on open source products and they run a conference called Gnunify in February every year that's one of the best conferences I ever go to it's run by the students so there's changes happening but that thing about wanting to be conflict diverse not everybody in open source has to be in the fray of the conflict but enough people have to be there that the movement doesn't get pushed around and there's a lot of ways to get there there are designated mouths like Jam right but we have to establish a culture of Jam hearing enough opinions that he can form a good representative statement you know and I think we're going to have to evolve those structures in the same way that the civil rights movement in the US or the anti-apartheid movement had to find a way for representative people to carry that load and there are people who love doing that work just like you hate it there are people who love it right but I do think you could probably pull it together to say you know stop fighting that would probably be a good comment did that help? do we have one more? can we have a woman? I usually go and shake the hands of all the women in the room I'm sorry I didn't do that this time I was wondering about the power balance that you get in open source development when you have some people and a growing number of people who actually can work on open source and therefore have the hours per day to look at the issues you are getting involved in the discussions and other people who do it in their free time or next to the job and therefore might only be able to comment on an issue like once a week so how are we dealing with this this imbalance of power or influence? well yeah influence question is more interesting so open source is rather than meritocracy I'm going to say it's a dualocracy where the people doing the work get a louder voice disproportionately and so if companies are paying people to do the work then yes those people are going to have more time but two things thing one a lot of the people that I meet who really like their open source project and would kind of like to do open source full time needs to maybe take the next step to go there because we get paid better or find you have been why not join us right so there's that but the other thing is I don't worry so much about volunteers becoming marginalized because I keep meeting volunteers who love that part of their lives so much that they find time to demarginalize themselves if you know what I'm saying I love when I give a talk at a university I often will say first okay so 10% of you are the only ones that are actually going to do anything about what I'm about to tell you and I welcome I welcome meeting you later as one of my peers right and it works out that way about 10% of any given university audience will come up to me the next year and say okay so I did what you asked and I love what I'm getting to do now and like I had a guy from Goodinify come up to me the next year and say you told me to learn Ruby in India and I learned it and now I'm the best Ruby person in India I did that in one year and like I'm having a hard time deciding to finish school because people are trying to hire me right so in a way open source lets you write your own ticket if you spend the time there is a bit of a bootstrapping problem where you have to keep body and soul together while you're establishing that relationship that new relationship to your work what I think I'm telling you is the whole system is set up so that people who really enjoy working in the space will strive to be able to work more in the space and if that means figuring out how to get paid to do the work so that you have more time then that's kind of the next logical step open source started almost all volunteer and now it's well over half of the people are paid and then the next problem is when you see someone behaving like they are wearing their company hat within a community you have to call them on that and say no you're a community member first because your reputation travels with you it's not your company's reputation they have reputation for being your sponsor for the work while they're paying you but your name is on those cabets not theirs and that's important it's your career and that's something for which it's more likely to help you get to make the right decisions even if you're being paid to make them was that it? are we done? huge thank you that's so inspirational I loved it as well oh sure I'm glad