 You say you're 16. Are you a 33-year-old scam artist? No. No. No. I promise you I'm not. Is this an evil orphan or a little girl left all alone? That's going to be for you to decide. Today we're going to talk about Natalia, Grace, and Greg, we're going to tell us about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah, so we're going to get these videos came from a 2019 Dr. Phil show, so Dr. Phil's questioning her. Let me give you a little backstory. Natalia was a Ukrainian dwarf who was, and her story really started to show up about 10 years ago when her adoptive parents started to say she might be a sociopath adult, masquerading as a child instead of a 6-year-old, and it went from there. So courts declared Natalia 22 instead of 8, and then her parents put her adopted parents, put her in an apartment by herself, and then moved away from her. Now, this is going to be all as Greg recalls it. So if I got a detail wrong, put it down below and remind me that she's not somebody's step-sister. And then in October of 2022, Natalia's adopted father, Michael Barnett, was acquitted of child neglect charges, stemming from that leaving her behind. And then six months later, his ex-wife, Christine, was also acquitted. Interesting is it was about when they brought these charges for abandonment of a child, and she is officially by court record an adult. There's been a lot of controversy, obviously, about your age because of the family that you were with before. How old are you? I'm 16. You're 16? Yes. When is your birthday? September 4th, 2003. Okay. And what exactly is your disorder? I have dwarfism. It's called dystrophic dysplasia. Dystrophic dysplasia? Yes. Along with scoliosis. And the scoliosis is in addition? Yeah. Okay. And when did you come to America? I was six years old when I came into the United States. You came as part of a program, right? I just know that a family came and visited me, and then after a while they adopted me. Okay. So they visited you in the Ukraine? Yes. All right, Mark, what do you got? Oh, okay. So, look, there is an um before she says her birth date. And so you might go, okay, well, why the lag? You know, if you ask me my birthday, I'm going to be able to kick it off to you really quick, no thinking about it. So, you know, that's a bit of an issue. However, there's an also an um before she explains the the growth issue that she has in the full medical term. So, maybe there's an um before all kinds of things. So, I'm going to have to discount that um. We've also got somebody who is showing a lot of chin thrust as well. So, you know, that may mean she is not enjoying this situation upset about this situation, aggressive antagonistic about this situation, maybe being deceptive. However, if she is a 16 year old, 16 year olds can be a little bit antagonistic sometimes. If she's a bit of an edgy, might we say precocious 16 year old and we'll come back later to that word precocious and what exactly it means and how it shows up developmentally in kids, that idea of being precocious. If she is a precocious 16 year old, then she might be a little bit edgy and the Dr. Phil show is not um not a stranger to precocious and edgy kids being in it. So, so far from what I see, there's some stuff that kind of doesn't fit and there's some stuff that really does fit for a Dr. Phil show. There's an app called Blinkist. The Blinkist app helps you understand the most important things from over 5000 books and podcasts in just 15 minutes. With Blinkist, you can discover new perspectives, broaden your horizons and it only takes 15 minutes to get the powerful insights and all these different topics. The Blinkist audio experience is top notch and I can tell you that because I'm a multi-gramming nominated record producer and when something sounds bad, I got a pretty good idea and I'll tell you this stuff sounds great. Now, keep in mind this isn't a replacement for reading. One of the ways I use it is like this. After I read what everybody is saying by Joe Navarro, I used the what everybody is saying Blinkist and learned a couple things I'd missed about neck touching and pacifying behaviors. So, it's a powerful tool for reviewing books you've read before. And check this out. They've got this new thing called Blinkist Spaces and what you do there is you create like a little space. You can invite people to come in, other people with Blinkist and you can share your titles with them and they can share their titles with you and they don't even have to have the premium subscription. For the behavior panel, that's what we do. We have a Blinkist. We have our own little space in there and we talk about different topics. For example, of course, body language, productivity, health and wellness, those types of things. As a premium user, you can create multiple spaces and with the same people or with new ones. Remember, get 25% off Blinkist annual premium and start your seven day free trial by clicking the link below. Blinkist.com slash TBP. Blinkist.com slash TBP. And thanks again Blinkist for sponsoring this episode and check out the link below. Greg, what do you go on this one? Yeah, I'm going to go down the same path. There are a couple of things to note here. Yes, we see disapproval when they start asking questions about her making a big deal about her age, when Dr. Phyllis is a big deal, she does some pursing ellipse and she has a vocal fry and you immediately we say vocal fry means something. It doesn't always mean the same thing, but we want to pay attention because something's going on. Then we see amusement. Now, I always say amusement is that lighting in the upper face and a mile smile in her lips as when she's asked her age and answers what her age is. And when you watch that, you might think, okay, there's doopers to light, but you might also realize that she might simply be happy. She's getting a chance to tell her own story. She's been through a whole lot of stuff. She may be very contained. Children who are raised in systems like foster care and that will learn to be very contained around other people, not saying all foster parents are the same or all foster situations, but when you move from environment to environment, you have to learn the rules before you change. And we're going to see that play out throughout this thing, but she shows that amusement again when she says, I came to U.S. when I was six. Now, what we need to do is figure out, is that amusement from pride? Is it happy to tell her story or is it happy to get away with something? And we're going to pay attention to it. Mark, that change, in my opinion, just my opinion, is due to her biology, how her body is built. And I think that's a resting position for her because of the way her neck and her body is structured. We'll see some change in it. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, we'll see some definite chin jut movement here soon. When people are asked questions and they're being genuine and honest, their eyes tend to move around. When somebody's locked with eye contact, this can indicate a few possibilities. One, this is their normal way of being. Or they either subconsciously or deliberately make this attempt because they think it increases the likelihood that they're going to be believed. So in other words, they think moving their eyes around will give away some kind of deception. And at this question, when did you come to America? She says, I was six years old. And she uses a complete sentence that asserts age first. This could indicate she's rehearsed this line many times, but she also believes this to be the most important point to get across to prove her point. And notice she also doesn't use America in response as would be more likely if it was a genuine answer to Dr. Phil's question. She didn't repeat the same word that he used. If this is rehearsed, it also shows us that there's more cognitive planning and forethought to this interview than would be expected in a teenage girl, but we're not sure yet. So we'll keep taking a look. Scott. All right. I'm going to approach this from a different perspective. I'm going to pretend like I'm looking for a con. And so that's going to be my approach. And one of the first things you notice when you're looking for, when you know someone is a con and you go in to observe, that's one of my favorite things is where somebody said, dude, you want to come in and watch this? Here's what's going on. It's great. I love it. But these are some of the things that I look for when I'm talking to them and the people that ring me in also look for as well. The first thing I'm going to look for is that confidence they've got because they're called, it's a confidence man or a confidence woman. That's what it's based on, the con. That's where the con comes in with it. Now, if this person was a con, right now is when they'd be gathering intel, their answers like hers are short. They're, they're right to the point. They're tight and you've got that intent, not intense, but it's almost a fixed gaze on Dr. Phil. As he's talking to her and she's answering him, she's making sure he's buying what she says. Now, I could be wrong about that because we're just now starting out with this, but that's one of the things you look for. It's going to be that, as she hadn't had time to build up the charisma part of it and a couple of different things, but I think if she was a con, she'd be well on her way. But right now she would be gathering intel. One of those tape replays. There's been a lot of controversy obviously about your age because of the family that you were with before. How old are you? I'm 16. You're 16? Yes. When is your birthday? September 4th, 2003. Okay. And what exactly is your disorder? I have dwarfism. It's called dystrophic dysplasia. Dystrophic dysplasia? Yes. Along with scoliosis. And the scoliosis is in addition? Yeah. Okay. And when did you come to America? I was six years old when I came into the United States. You came as part of a program, right? I just know that a family came and visited me and then after a while they adopted me. Okay. So they visited you in the Ukraine? Yes. What were your living conditions in the Ukraine? Were you in a group home? I don't really know what it was. I just know there was a lot of kids and there were some caregivers. And where did you first live? I was in New Hampshire. New Hampshire? Yes. And how long did you stay with that family? Two years. How many families do you think you were with total? I actually don't really remember all the families, but Christine said that I was with at least like 30 families. Like one was in New York and then some other places. I don't remember what she said. 30 families? Like for a couple of days? I don't know. I don't remember being with that many families. So when you went to the family in New Hampshire and you left there, why did you leave there? I think it happened because they had two boys and one of the boys, me and him were really close. So we like, like wrestled almost. But I landed on his arm wrong. So the mom thought I was trying to break his arm. So then that's when she was like, I can't do this anymore. And when she said, she can't do this anymore, what was this? What did she mean? I can't do this anymore? I don't know. Had she been frustrated with you before? I don't really know what it was with them. So you left there and went to another family for how long? I don't remember all the families. I just remember this one family that because I was with them the most. And what was their name? They were the DePaul's. DePaul's. And how'd it go there? It was good. Me and their daughter, we were close. And why did you not stay there? I think it was like a money issue. All right, Chase, what do you got? She starts down a path here that all of us know very well. The I don't really know pathway. And the trouble with this is that she uses this tactic in ways that most people would be totally comfortable saying, I think I believe pretty much or otherwise they would have no trouble speculating on these things. Well, I think it's because of X, Y and Z. And notice she's still not moving her eyes at all when asked these questions that should elicit some kind of eye movement in almost anyone in the world. And even blind people will move their eyes to access memories and information in their head. And then she uses this concept of being close to this young boy to lead into to make sense of this wrestling comment. And to me, this wrestling comment was a giant red flag. There's a huge spike in uncertainty here in her language. Her hand is going back and forth like saying, like somebody would do if they were saying no. And just kind of waving off the comment and her eyes almost closed completely after they do this little flutter movement. I think something way more personal happened than wrestling here. And she uses the mom to refer to the kid's mom, which I think is strange, especially if she was a child at that age, but might be her language. And there's more. I don't know at the end at the I can't do this anymore. And most people would have processed this. Most people would have thought about it and would have some form of an idea. And there's an exception to this, though. There is one type of person who might not process this kind of information much at all, who won't think about other people's feelings or reaction at all. And we'll get to that later. Mark, what do you think? Yeah. So if it's correct that she has been from home to home to home to home, she's somewhat had a different upbringing than most other people out there, I would suggest. And she's been institutionalized somewhat. So there comes a point where some of the bets of what is usual. And also she has a growth condition there as well. So some of the hormone levels that we'd expect are not are not usual. There's a whole bunch of things that it's not our usual trip out here. So I think I'm taking that into consideration as we go along. Now, she isn't able, just like you say, Chase, she isn't able to answer the questions about the past that could be usual, or it could be very useful for her. I don't know which one it is at this point. Is it is it usual that as an institutionalized child taken from a country, moved from a country and then going from pillar to post that some of that information has gone, it's possible. So it seems that she says she says I don't know and there's a single shoulder shrug and I don't remember a double shoulder shrug. So there may be a difference between what you don't know and what you don't remember. Maybe there is stuff you don't you do know, but you don't remember the details you've been told. It's a possibility. And I think it's interesting that there's that differentiation there. So she may know some of the facts, but not remember everything about them. Yeah, the wrestling is interesting. We like then she searches for the right word like wrestled almost. And then there's this instability gesture. So was it playful wrestling that you might do with a sibling? Because you know, part of growing up as a sibling is one of your jobs. And if you don't have a sibling, it's the job of the mother or the father is to wrestle the child else the child doesn't really know how strong they are. And then they'll go out and hurt other other people accidentally because they've never been tested. So one of the things that all kinds of social mammals do is to is to wrestle each other. That is that is normal. It's also normal even in very stable households to have sibling rivalry. And so the wrestling may transform into something way more aggressive, way more violent. And yet we've all been in situations where accidentally, sometimes a little bit on purpose, bones have been broken, people go to hospital, it all gets a little bit extreme. So there's a possibility here that it may be kids wrestling, maybe a little bit more sibling rivalry. And and that's going to happen as you jockey for position in a new home, and things get taken a little bit too far, and bones get broken. It's a possibility. I think the I think what potentially it's is dramatic and exciting to infer is a bit of a sexual relationship going on there. Because the the idea is, well, maybe we've got an adult here, and maybe it gets that out of hand. It's it's it's possible. It's possible if this is a 33 year old, psychopathic sociopathic you know, person. I don't know. At this stage, everything is is a strong possibility here. Greg, what do you got? What do you think? Yeah, let's talk about culture shock for just a minute. So when we think of culture shock, everybody thinks of going to a new country. That's not the first time you experience culture shock. First time you experience culture shock is when you left your parents house, and we're under the control of another adult, because the rules changed, and you suddenly had to adapt. And you adapted to that set of rules and you came home. So children who go earlier get much better at that. And children who move a lot are constantly exposed to culture shock and come up with new ways of dealing with it. And that's trauma. You know, you guys hear me say all the time, human condition is trauma. And the moment you're born, you're going to face trauma of some kind, some more horrific, some less. And as that person adapts, it might be that they adapt in a way that causes them to sit very still and to be very contained. The other thing that happens is if you're in a group home, and there's a lot of ruckus, and these kids are jacking around and fighting, what's acceptable in that house may be very different from what's acceptable in your new house, where the children may be more frail, maybe less frail, and you may be a little bit more aggressive and a little more physical. So let's take that into account first, because that's a big part of this person's upbringing, assuming that it's not just outright lie, that she came at 33. There are three things I want to look at very quickly. They're none of them are smoking guns, but they're important. She's got a furrowing of her brow. She talks about how many families she was with. And then she drops to emotional eye access. Well, if I live with 30 families, it might be the case. Some people get hard, some people get, you know, softer. It depends on how that person deals with that. But then her brow goes up in uncertainty and requests for approval as she addresses what's going on. When she's talking about this wrestling piece, maybe this is, maybe this is what happened is she pushed hard enough that these people are like she's too aggressive for our family, and they found a way for her to go out. But listen, her voice lils when she says wrestling, she does that rocking back and forth with her hand, which I think is you might think it's this, you might think it's that. But then I felt like when she was doing that and shaking your hand, she's fishing for approval in calling it wrestling. Whereas the people might have said, you're a brute, you're beating up the child. So there's two. Third is there's a pregnant pause right after me, a dead open pause outside of her normal baseline. After she says, I was trying to break his arm. And she breaks eye contact into emotion, but no tears, nothing sad. It could mean she's shopping for an answer in degrees and trying to figure out what's okay. Don't know. But she is a product of her environment. And then when she says, I don't know what it was with them, there's an eye contact change and a cadence change. Those three things make me think, whether it's a big deal, or something else, she contributed in some way, or feels like she contributed in some way to the reason she was ejected from those houses. Now, if you're a child, children feel guilty for lots of things that they're not responsible for. Don't know. We'll wait and see what we find. Scott, what do you got? All right. Let's pretend like we're hunting for a con and we're looking for the con in this story or for that person to be conning you. One of the things you look for is something that just doesn't sound right. And sometimes when you're dealing with a con, one of their tools is manipulation of emotions. And they could be trying to manipulate empathy or sympathy or fear, whatever it is. And in this case, in my opinion, she would be trying to manipulate the empathy part on Dr. Phil, which would be tough to do because she talks about 30 families. Number one, that doesn't sound right. Even he says that, well, anyway, hold on a second, 30, that's a whole lot for a child. But if you think about, but we accept that and go, okay, okay, it was 30. So all of a sudden everybody's accepted that. I don't, I don't, I don't, doesn't mean she's lying or doesn't mean she's telling the truth about everything else. But I'm not buying the 30, 30 families, 30. That's a whole lot. So I think she's trying at this point, she's, if she has a con, she's getting in there, trying to manipulate the emotions of the viewer and Dr. Phil by talking about that. And when she talks about the people who, what was the family's name that adopted her that she liked? Burnett. No, the other ones. No, the other one. DePaul? DePaul. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. And her hand is on the thing. She says the DePaul's, her hand goes up. That's one of those gravity defying gestures that Joe Navarro always talks about. So I believe she did enjoy that. And she liked being there when it came to, when it came to that. But something, there's strike one for me is that thing about the 30 families. Let's just put that aside over here and we'll put that little pile and see how big that pile gets as we go. But think about manipulation of emotions. We listen to this again. And then a pile of things that doesn't, that don't sound right. And so we'll go through it and start piling that thing up. One of those tape replays. What were your living conditions in the Ukraine? Were you in a group home? I don't really know what it was. I just know there was a lot of kids and there were some caregivers. And where did you first live? I was in New Hampshire. New Hampshire? Yes. And how long did you stay with that family? Two years. How many families do you think you were with total? I actually don't really remember all the families, but Christine said that I was with at least like 30 families. Like one was in New York and then some other places. I don't remember what she said. 30 families? Like for a couple of days? I don't know. I don't remember being with that many families. So when you went to the family in New Hampshire and you left there, why did you leave there? I think it happened because they had two boys and one of the boys me and him were really close. So we like like wrestled almost. But I landed on his arm wrong. So the mom thought I was trying to break his arm. So then that's when she was like, I can't do this anymore. And when she said she can't do this anymore, what was this? What did she mean? I can't do this anymore. I don't know. Had she been frustrated with you before? I don't really know what it was with them. So you left there and went to another family for how long? I don't remember all the families. I just remember this one family that because I was with them the most. And what was their name? They were the DePaul's. DePaul's and how'd it go there? It was good. Me and their daughter, we were close. And why did you not stay there? I think it was like a money issue. And thinking about the Barnettes, when you first went there, were you happy? I was. Were they happy with you? Yes. Did you feel loved there? I did. The first? Yes, I actually thought I had found the right family after bouncing around from a lot of families. I thought I had found the right family for me. So this was your home? Yes. They accepted you? Yes, first and last year. You felt safe there? Yes. What was your first clue that it was heading down a bad road? It was after my surgery when she started questioning about my age and then like everything started happening after that one moment. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so this one starts to get interesting because she's answering the questions like I would expect a prisoner of war to answer. If I ask your leading questions, she gives me a quick yes or no answer with quick closed lips, but her chin is up more than usual here. So maybe it's defiance. We don't know that for sure. But she's changed her style of answering very much. She's not giving you a response. That's a narrative. We can't read minds. This could be in response to how she's been dealt with in her past. If you think about when you're dealing with a child and you start to put pressure on them, they go, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, because children are smart enough to know that if they give you more information, they're likely to get in trouble. Now, that could also mean that she's calculating and trying not to give you more information to keep her out of trouble for some reason. But if you just pay attention to it, she's pretty consistent with all of that until you get to the first clue it was a bad road. And she drops down to emotional eye accessing. And if you want to know what we mean by emotional eye accessing, we mean they look down into their right. For a minute, if you think about your favorite pet, whether that was a monkey, alligator, a chicken, whatever, and you look down into your right as you're thinking that animal, you'll have that emotional response. That's what we're looking for. And she does. That's a good indicator. I know somebody who's emotional responses are as muted as this person. And he was raised by a mother who tried to commit suicide with him in the car and those kinds of things. And it had an impact on him. So his he was very contained as a result. So just looking at that makes it very tough for us to look at the same thing. But in many cases, all that stuff that we start with is just the beginning. And then we just keep piling all this stuff on to protect ourselves. I can't speak to what this is. But remember, this is about the organism. And the organism is going to do what made the organism successful through that chain of events that got her here. Chase, what you got? Yeah, her answers about this family are just like you were saying, Greg, immediate, short, and it sounds almost rehearsed. And I think the anxiety is way up here. And when Phil says, what was your first clue that it was leading down a bad road? She says, it was after my surgery when she started questioning about my age. So there's no detail there. And she uses a fragment of a sentence to describe the way things were going, the hint that she got. And there's no confusion or emotion about being questioned about her age, which is strange. And there's no indication she was surprised by this at all. And there's no emotion present here hardly at all. And she uses the word everything and moment, those two words to describe what would be severely traumatic, emotional and frightening, I would imagine, for a girl who was especially under 10 years old at the time. It's what you're seeing here might be something called simulated adjustment. And in a clinical context where people pretend to adjust to situations or an event in a way that's not authentic, this can be detected by looking for patterns that don't match up with normal behavior, like overly enthusiastic reactions or lack of genuine emotional responses to significant events or the recall of those events. That was a long one, Scott. All right, that won't be as long. Might or all be short today. Like we've all said so far, everything changes when we get to the part about the surgery. And if she was a con in this, she would lay a little bit more on this right here. She would combine the two of trying to get that, the number one thing we talked about, which was the charming charisma thing, and then trying to manipulate those emotions in there. But she can do it there toward the end. But I think if she was a con, she's being very careful about this. Not once has she ever said, it's hard because I got to do this or it's hard because I'm small. It's hard because she hasn't done that. And if she is a con, it's brilliant that she's not doing that. She has to be pretty smart because that would be the first thing you'd see. And you lay that out and go, look at me. I'm so small and I have all these problems. And so obviously you feel sorry for me. But if she was a con, she's not going down that road. So everything changes there at the end. And she even brings into a singularity the discussion that happened after the surgery. She talks about how was that one thing that happened? How did she word that? I can't remember what she said. It was after that one. Maybe she says after that one thing. Listen to it and see what you think or see what you hear at the end. But she brings it down to one single little point. So that makes me think that's the only thing that happened. I don't think there was a lot of discussion about different things. It was that one little thing about her age. I think it was all brought down to that one part there. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it is that element of the age. This is the big issue. This is why it's such an exciting story. This is why it's not only a cultural story, it's a human story. Look, if you're the kind of family that likes to look after people and you see somebody who doesn't have a home and doesn't want to look and doesn't have anybody to look after them, it shouldn't really matter what age they are. It's just like, you know, come all comeers, no matter what age we're here to help you, we'll bring you in, we will give you a home. But the age is an issue. And the reason on a human level, the age is an issue is that we have an instinctual response. Most of us, most of us have an instinctual response to children who are not cared for. Look, we've all passed homeless people on the streets. Have you passed a homeless child, a child on their own who is clearly, you know, has has and just gone, well, that's somebody else's problem. My guess is, is you've taken a second look if that's ever happened with you. You if you've even seen that in the first place, because when it comes to children, we tend to rush in there, hopefully, and look after them. So we have an innate response to looking after the motherless child, the stateless infant, essentially. So we've got a bit of a social rule, which is you don't pretend to be a child in that situation, because pretending to be a child would be it would be a cheap signal, you would you would be actioning an instinct of many mothers and fathers out there to look after you. So that's the big problem. It triggers our instincts. And at the same time, why is it so an interesting such an interesting story that has all the things of an Eastern European folktale, you've got small people doing potentially really bad stuff, replacing other children, you've got the cuckoo child, essentially, which is which is which is the child that gets left in another home, and then gets looked after as as their own. We see this in nature all the time, you've even got somebody from an Eastern European country. So it has that weird sense of, yeah, but we don't know where they come from. And it's very dark and mysterious over there, lots of lots of pine forests that you can't quite see what's happening in the trees. So all of this to say, and we've got a potential curious case of Benjamin Button, and it strikes me, I've not seen the series, but the series about this at the moment starts with the curious case of. And so what they're doing, Benjamin Button, the story is somebody who is a child but but looks old ages quickly, but I think it's called progeria or something like that. I don't think she has that. But ultimately, what what what they're suggesting is is there is such an anomaly happening here, that many of the bets are off as to what is normal behavior. And therefore, we're going to have people who are going to react in all kinds of extreme ways to this, including us as an audience. And that's why it's such an extraordinary story, because we will have big reactions to this, whether we like it or not, it's structured in that way. So just a little cultural human warning about how we're going to handle this, I think as human beings. One of those tape replays. I'm thinking about the Barnettes, when you first went there, were you happy? I was. Were they happy with you? Yes. Did you feel love there? I did. Feel like you belonged? Yes, I actually thought I had found the right family after bouncing around from a lot of families. I thought I had found the right family for me. So this was your home? Yes. They accepted you? Yes, first thing last year. You felt safe there? Yes. What was your first clue that it was heading down a bad road? It was after my surgery, when she started questioning about my age, and then like everything started happening after that one moment. In the medical paperwork they had, they were told she was six years old. And then they say that you're a scam artist. You didn't give them the medical paperwork, someone had to provide that. If there's a scam here, it does emanate from you. Right. Here's another one. I was putting her into the bathtub, and I noticed that she had full pubic hair. I noticed clothing in her closet that contained at least some remnants of a menstrual cycle. Okay, and she's talking about it. This time you were supposedly eight years old? Yeah, I was almost eight. And she noticed these secondary sexual characteristics. Did she talk to you about that? No. She's been with us for almost seven years. To this day, she does not have a menstrual. Not one. Christine did not say anything about bloody clothing or anything to me. And she said that I had one, and she had me use a tampon. And ever since then, I've never. So she had you use a tampon one time? Yes. And there was a spotage, I guess, I don't know why. And she's exceed that's blood. And that's probably. Yeah. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a pretty interesting one. I'm going to cover the mother or more than I'm going to cover her. These clips are very short. I was really wanting to get the entire interview with the mother. She only did one interview that I know of, and that was Daily Mail. If you know where another one is, grab it for us, because this is good. When she says pubic hair, she is very tentative. I don't know whether it's because she thinks it's the wrong thing to say on TV or whether she's feeling like it's inappropriate and wondering if she or where there's wondering she'll be believable. But she changes cadence. There was a cut in there. I wish she were not there because she doesn't inhale breath before she says pubic hair. Interesting. Why don't know would love to know. And then there are at least some remnants when she's talking about that with menstruation. There's a qualifier. She uses a qualifier. She didn't say, Hey, I found menstrual blood on her clothes. You would expect her to say that. And look, I'm not going to get into the biology of that, but I'll just tell you stress. Most women will tell you stress creates lots of hormone changes in them. And we capture prisoners, women immediately almost always cycle. So stress in if a child is already cycling, you would expect that to happen a lot as she moved from home to home to home. Don't know. We'll hear other people later say it hasn't happened. Meanwhile, the child, the person, Natalia sits there with no blink rate increase, no emotion, nothing. So there's no response to this means it doesn't seem to affect her. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So we'll come to the controlling of that message a little bit later on. But the idea of that this is an impossibility or improbability of puberty at the age of eight. Well, no, that's the that is that is the potentially the start of puberty for modern females between eight and and 13 would be within the normal range. You can also have precocious puberty, which means at the age of six, this could start and that wouldn't be abnormal. That would be precocious puberty. And there's all kinds of ideas around why this might be be earlier. But if you take ideas from the past of when puberty should start, you're going to be in the past because of potentially chemicals in the water right now, and also quite likely the amount of incandescent light that we all have on a more regular basis. The pineal gland reacts in a different way and puberty can onset a lot earlier. So if that is the smoking gun that people are looking for, it doesn't really pass you, it doesn't really pass muster, I would say. And it seems to be a little bit hearsay from the past carer as well. Now, the interesting thing for me is the the carers, the two other the two adults with her at the time, they use some downward palm gestures at the end to close down that questioning, they moderate that that questioning. I think I'd like to know why they want to moderate that question. I'd like to know why they decide to close that down. I think she says she doesn't know why if this happened, if there was blood, she doesn't quite know why that would be. Again, there's all kinds of good reasons why that would be. There's some very important medical reasons, hormonal reasons outside of puberty, why that might be, which might point towards some some other medical care that she's been given, which would be potentially alongside the operation that she's having, all of this to say. That as the smoking gun is not good enough from my point of view. Scott, what do you got on this one? I'll keep this one short and sweet. Here's another thing that doesn't sound right. They come up with the thing about her having her cycle at that section right then. Like Greg was saying, she just kept sort of doesn't say much. We don't see much emotion at all coming from her. This doesn't look right. If she was a con, this wouldn't look right because she gets that information, doesn't react to it really, but she does react by not reacting. So think of it like that. I think with tooth so far, we've got a couple of things that just don't sound right up to this point. So that kind of in my little pile of stuff, there's one thing on the bottom. There's that part about the 30 families and we have this part up here about she had her cycle and she was so young and it has them concerned and they're not the first to be concerned. So for me, the story is starting to sound and feel and look a little bit odd. All right, Chase, what do you got? I'm no doctor, but I do hold an advanced certification in neuroendocrinology if that's important to you. This early of menstruation is unlikely to be caused by her actual condition, but there are some factors like genetics, thyroid, pituitary issues, and even some exposure to like endocrine disrupting chemicals like pesticides, dioxin, phthalates that can cause those to happen. I don't think that's likely here. I called a doctor who is a specialist in this area today and she agreed that this is not a likely smoking gun, as Mark said. And when Phil says, did she talk to you about that? She says no. She didn't realize it completely and then goes and explaining how this woman walked her through what a period is and then had her use a tampon. Strange that that would happen. And one thing that's interesting here is there's something called an indirect insinuation of wrongdoing here. And this occurs when a person, I'm not saying it's here. This happens when a person communicates in a way to cast suspicion or doubt or the possibility of guilt onto someone else indirectly. It's believed this is largely due to unconscious desires to increase that person's own appearance rather than directly attack the character of the other person. So if I can push them down, it makes me look a little better. One of those tape replays. In the medical paperwork they had, they were told she was six years old. And then they say that you're a scam artist. You didn't give them the medical paperwork. Someone had to provide that. If there's a scam here, it's, it doesn't emanate from you. Right. Here's another one. I was putting her into the bathtub and I noticed that she had full pubic hair. I noticed clothing in her closet that contained at least some remnants of a menstrual cycle. Okay. And she's talking about it. This time you were supposedly eight years old. Yeah, I was almost eight. And she noticed these secondary sexual characteristics. Did she talk to you about that? No. She's been with us for almost seven years. To this day, she does not have a menstrual. Not one. Christine did not say anything about bloody clothing or anything to me. And she said that I had one and she had me use a tampon and ever since then I've never. So she had you use a tampon one time? Yes. And there was spotage, I guess. I don't know why. And she succeed that's blood. And that's probably. Yeah. Yeah. She was hiding knives in her couches. She was talking about she was going to kill family members. She's standing in the middle of the room and she would say, I'm waiting for the right time to poison people. She put chemicals on the coffee. Did you think that happened? No. She said that I hid knives on top of the fridge, under the fridge, in the cabinets, even on her office desk. How did you get something on top of the refrigerator? I can't even reach it. Not even with a chair. I couldn't reach it. You can't get to the top of the refrigerator, right? No, I can't. You were cleaning? Yes. You're helping her clean? Yes. And she says you sprayed bleach in her coffee? It was lemon pledge for tables. And she actually has footage of you doing that. So we had missed a spot. So what I did was I scooted the chair over so I could get up there and I scooted her coffee back so I could grab the thing because it was in front of it. So I scooted it back and I grabbed it. She came out and was like, what are you doing? And as she claimed that I tried to spray it in her coffee, you could look in her coffee. There was nothing. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so interesting. I find the initial no very direct, very clear. It seems like a good denial to me. I'm willing to have my mind changed on it, but seems like a really good denial. Now the rest of this whole sequence for me is cut up so much that I find it hard to follow the story. Listen, I understand why, like anything, you're having to build suspense in there. And if they deliver to the audience all of what somebody says, we go, oh, I see. Oh, I get it. Well, then that's okay. So we're kind of analyzed something which has been built to hold an audience for an hour and get us to watch the adverts in between. Okay, that's the nature of TV to get us to watch the adverts in between. Great content, great content, by the way, but it has to have suspense built into it. So it has to take away some of the elements. For me, this clip, though there's a good initial denial, it's too cut up for me to really make any analysis and judgment on. But others may have had a good stab at it and that's good. I'm all for that. Scott, what do you got on this one? When she's confronted with what would be a criminal act, poisoning somebody, she gets still again. There's not a whole lot going on there. She gets louder and her cadence speeds up a little bit and it slows down a little bit. It speeds up a little bit. There's a lot of thinking going on in there. And here's another red flag somebody's accusing her of poisoning them. So I don't know, like I said today, might be super short. So that one's super short. Chase, what do you got? This thing is going, as Mark would say, just bonkers pretty fast. If there's one thing that indicates somebody is truly going off the rails like this, it's when there is a pattern. And if there's one thing that really shows that the pattern is true is when the pattern is witnessed by unconnected people, people that are not connected to each other. So as she's watching the video, there's one thing that stood out. She's watching this woman say this about her. There's no anger. There's no anger. And a person, an average or let's say reasonable person with a normal limbic system will respond with either collapse or anger when this sort of thing happens. And the woman on the video claiming all of this is genuine. She has eye accessing all over while she's trying to recall these details, lots of emotional accessing, genuine and perfectly timed gestures, pauses and natural fluctuation in the tone and pitch of her voice. Notice there is no direct denial about the coffee. The story that she tells is vague and full of detail, but doesn't really talk about specifically what she was doing. And it doesn't make a denial about putting it into the coffee or the intent to do so. Yeah, I think here we're going to get into this anytime you're talking to two people, somewhere in the middle is usually where the truth is. And I think we're going to see a lot of it here. Let's start off by talking about Christine, who's the mother, who's the blonde woman in the video. First of all, she is a well-known author who wrote a book called The Spark. She had raised a child on the spectrum, who is a math prodigy and went to university at 14, I think 14 or 15 and has been in front of a camera a lot. So she's much better in front of a camera than most folks you would imagine. She uses words like standing over, running into. We're going to hear those words used to talk about this person who is quite not capable of running or standing over people. And those words usually, I listen to word patterns to say, what kind of person is this? And by that, I mean, how do they typically communicate? Do they speak in hyperbole? Do they speak in understated ways? And I think we are going to see a pattern of hyperbole in the way they talk. So is spring pledge in your coffee poison or is it revenge? Don't know. It depends on you as to how you perceive that, how you define it. In a household where that's considered poisoning, standing over may be something different too. So just think about that. And now we got to get back to culture shock and where this is. So one person's poison is another person's household cleaner. One person's arm breaking is another kid's wrestling. That can be a really interesting thing when you're moving from the house to house, not taking everything away from her. Here's the interesting red flag for me from Natalia. And the last one where they're talking about, she was more mature than her years. And she's older than she was claiming. No movement, no facial expression, nothing. She's just sat there in this one. While she's listening to her tell the story, there's an exaggerated facial expression while she's listening to an accusation. And I think it's because she knew that this stuff was going to come up because this stuff is probably true. Now, whether she went in and said, I'm going to kill you or took a knife and hit it somewhere, it was on top of the fridge or probably not. But if a kid is ruckus and has no other way to control the environment, especially people who have limited physical means, they may use words in a very big way. Younger children, especially, can be tantrum throwers and just go, you guys raise kids, you know, your kid could throw tantrum over something that has nothing to do with what's going on. So especially when she's discussing these very topics that she knows is going to come up and seeing her facial expression, it makes that jump off the plate to me. And she looks appropriately angered with the narrowing and muting in the mouth when she's talking about the refrigerator. So look, this is another marker for me that makes me think the truth somewhere in the middle. She might have been trying to poison or taking knives to kill them. She might have said, I'm going to kill you. Who knows. But somewhere in the middle of all this dramatic range is probably where we're going to find the truth. One of those tape replays. She was hiding knives in her couches. She was talking about she was going to kill family members. She's standing in the middle of the room and she would say, I'm waiting for the right time. She poisoned people. She put chemicals on the coffee. Did anything happen? No. She said that I hid knives on top of the fridge under the fridge and the cabinets, even on her office desk. How did you get something on top of the refrigerator? I can't even reach it. Not even with a chair. I couldn't reach it. You can't get to the top of the refrigerator, right? No, I can't. You were cleaning. Yes. You were helping her clean. Yes. And she says you sprayed bleach in her coffee. It was lemon pledge for tables. And she actually has footage of you doing that. So we had missed a spot. So what I did was I screwed the chair over so I could get up there and I screwed her coffee back so I could grab the thing because it was in front of it. So I scooted it back and I grabbed it. She came out and was like, what are you doing? And then she claimed that I tried to spray it in her coffee. You could look in her coffee. There was nothing. Did you ever stand at the foot of their bed, around their bed, in their room, watched them sleep with a knife in your hand? No. Never. Did you ever want to stab them? No. Did you ever make plans to stab them? No. If I ever went in the room, it was to wake them up because I was either scared of a nightmare or something like that. But I never went in their room. I didn't. But is there any reason that they would have like nanny cam footage, hidden camera footage of you standing at the end of the bed with a knife in your hand? No. If they had it, they would have produced it, right? She said you tried to push her into an electric fence. It was the youngest birthday, so we went to the farm because he likes cows. And then we started walking. I got like a quarter of the way and I sat down. And where were you? It was like a trail on a farm. And so I sat down because my legs hurt really bad. So Christine had Michael and the boys go up ahead of us. She sat down next to me and was like, Natalia, you need to get up. So she got up and she was helping me, trying to help me get up. But I fell again and she fell with me. And the electric fence wasn't that far from us. So you guys fell and she said you tried to push her into the electric fence? Yeah, it wasn't that far. It's terrible that they're trying to make her out to be this monster. All right, Chase, what do you got? So here's what I think you should be looking for in this one. Her first denial about standing at the foot of the bed, there's a little confusion showing. This is the behavior of somebody accused of something they had no idea about. Think about this. If you're accused of something that you had no idea it was just coming out of left field. But the mistake here is forgetting that people only do this when they hear it the first time. She's heard this for years. So she makes another soft denial and then starts this crying thing. And when you watch this again, pay attention to her eyes. Here's what happens when she starts the crying thing. This is just my opinion. I'm open to being having my mind changed, as Marc says. She makes 100% solid, unflinching eye contact with her target. I mean, Dr. Phil. There's no expression of sadness on her face at all. She doesn't blink, doesn't hold her eyes close. Her chin boss movement is not genuine. The entire chin moves instead. Right before she does the sadness thing, there's pure anger on her face. Her entire lower jaw comes forward, unnaturally forward. You're seeing a total lack of emotional affect, deliberate, calculated use of feigned sadness, in my opinion, to control the environment around her. Just going back to what Greg says, doesn't mean she hasn't been traumatized. It doesn't mean this is a result of the organism not doing something that made it successful in the past. Her denial of Dr. Phil's bait question, which was fabulous, or a mind virus question, is different than all the others. It was really soft. And she's comfortable denying things that were impossible to prove. That's the reason, I think. And if she tried to push this woman into the electric fence, I don't remember her name, you're seeing, if that's true, then you're seeing criminal impulsivity and inability to control those impulses and a severely low ability to predict potential consequences. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, with this bait question, he did that really well, because the first time he brings it up, she doesn't even answer, doesn't even react to it. She goes on talking about something else. Usually, and what we're talking about, we say bait question, the person that is suspected of doing something, you'll say so-and-so that, Mark, is there any reason whatsoever that your blood or your DNA could be hair, spit, from coffin, whatever, be in the room where that body was, be any reason whatsoever? Quite often, the person who was in and they've said they weren't in the room at all, had nothing, it shouldn't be in the room at all before that. And you ask them that question, here's what happens most of the time. It's not every time and you can't count on it every time. However, when you ask that question and they say, shouldn't be, I can't think of a reason why, shouldn't be, they're getting real quiet on you, not that big a deal. They should be fairly worried. So I would put them in my little pile over here of people who are still, I would still suspect them. But if they said, no, there's not going to be any DNA of mine, no spit, no nothing, why? Because I wouldn't in there. That's why. No, it won't be anything of mine in there. I'll tell you that. They get loud and they'll come forward and they'll come at you with that. She's not doing that. She gets a little bit quiet right in there. So that makes me think something's up with this. So I want to put that little pile of stuff over here with, we might be dealing with a con. If I was looking for a con and wondering if she was or not, I would definitely just that one part where he, and you're right, Chase, he does that really well. He did that really well because and notice this tone in this, this whole time it's been really soft. And so I don't think at any time as he kick into the hard stuff, but he's keeping it fairly light on this, but he's still asking the good questions. Greg, what do you got? You can call that soft, but what he just does is up the pressure. And remember, you heard me say a million times, the first thing I learned about body language was how to stop someone from crying if they're not being truthful. And that was up the pressure and watch it dry up. Watch this happen elegantly. He asked this fake question. She's already gone into this fake cry and then boom, it just dries up. So as we watch this, this, my guess is that when this person's threatened, forget whether she's 22 or 65 or nine, her tool is lash out. And that lash out, who knows what form it takes. Kids who moved around, they learned from lots of people. But here, she's not even showing as much concern as she did in the last one when she's asked about the knife at the foot of the bed. There's a nervous laugh, always a red flag. Why? That's a weird response to being accused of holding a knife at the foot of somebody's bed. That's a red flag we would ask questions. And then there's a whole lot of stuff going across her face. Chase, I think you should, you talked about anger. There's anger, there's frustration, there's disapproval. And then that cry starts. Her chin in the beginning, though, is down. This is the first time we see your chin down. Remember, head naturally is in a different position. So we associate that with shame or denial. You know, if they're trying to hide something, they'll do that too. But so then he asks this bait question. When she responds to the bait question, Scott, I'm surprised you didn't say it, fading facts. No, she sounded like Candace Bly on Dr. Phil saying, no, when we had that question, if you remember, this makes me suspicious about her being 100% truthful. Now look, if she's eight, and she did something before that was foolish, she may feel shame for that now. If she's 16, and she did something foolish, she may feel shame for it now. People grow, people change. But there are red flags all over this one that, yeah, she probably did something, whether it's this exact thing or akin to this something. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, this is so interesting because it's about what is normal behavior and abnormal behavior, and what age is this person? And what is abnormal or normal for this person? And what, what story does she think she should be telling for normal and abnormal? So did you ever make plans to stab them? And we do hear stress in the voice at that point. And you might go, well, it would be very abnormal to make plans to stab your parents. You'd be wrong. Because a normal part of growing up is to idealize in some way the demise of your parents in some way. I'm not saying it's a stabbing. And if you don't do it in your own imagination, you sublimate it into a book. That's why children's stories often don't have the parents there. It's a sublimation. It's it's so you can imagine how you survive without those parents there without that control mechanism. Now you've got somebody here, no matter what age they are, you've got somebody here has been pushed from pillar to post. Do you think there might be some anger there somewhere? I'm going to think probably. Do you think, well, no matter what age this person is, if they've got small legs and they're taken on a country walk and they get tired, that they might get angry and lash out? Well, yeah, I think probably probably would. I as a kid would do that. I as an adult might do that if I'm not able to moderate myself at that time. Well, you know, maybe it is the bait question that moderates her, or maybe it's her own ability to moderate that crime. The crying is terrible, by the way. Nobody believes that's real crying. She's she's she's putting it on to try and get an effect to see what she can get out of it. She's able to close it down very, very quickly. I think if it was a real cry, she'd be able to close it down very, very quickly. Because if you've grown up in institutions, you learn how to moderate really fast. You also learn how to let loose really fast to make sure that everybody knows what power you have. She says, she says about the electric fence. It wasn't very far. Well, so it was far, but not very far. Okay, it's very different from saying, well, you know, it was close. It was close. So obviously, we tumbled into that. No, it wasn't very far. Okay, there's clearly some unmoderated aggression going on here. Could be from a 33 year old could be from a young teenager. But that is not abnormal just because you got little legs, okay, and you get upset on a country walk because your sibling who maybe gets more attention, maybe not wants to go and see cows. And you have to be dragged on this walk. And we've all been dragged on those walks going, why do I have to come along with that? Well, she may well get more aggressive than others. And that doesn't fit the story very well that she's trying to try and try and tell. So yeah, look, could be a 30, 30, 33 year old psychopathic dwarf. I mean, it could be, you know, from from Eastern Europe. I mean, yeah, possibly, possibly it's that. At the same time, those behaviors, even the ideation of of harm to the parents, the death of the parents and being part of that the ideation of that is by no means abnormal. You may well have done it yourself. And if you're telling me you haven't done it, for a second, I would go, yeah, maybe you're not the normal one around here if you haven't had that ideation because we know clinically that ideation shows up or you love those books where the parents aren't there anymore and all the greatest children's books have those. So that's what I got on on that one. Are we all there? Yep. But you know what? There's one more place we've seen that where there's a heavy crying and emotion and then snapping out of it just being normal and being something else. Anybody remember where? Amber heard. Yeah, she'd be all upset. And she'd be like, I just think so until she's like, but you know what we should do? Well, you know, if I if I've been pushed from pillar to post and never had a parent, one thing that I might easily get diagnosed with is borderline personality disorder. For sure. It's on my list of things here because look, if a person has had to adapt to every different person, I think about Chase, the first time you joined the military and your first duty assignment, you remember how much adapting you had to do to personalities around you? Chief, co-workers. And so you have to compress your personality and learn until you get there and figure out how you work with those people. Imagine if you're a child without those coping skills. Now forget whether she's now 16 or 18 or 36 or 94 if you've been in that system. One of those tape replays. Did you ever stand at the foot of their bed around their bed in their room? Watch them sleep with a knife in your hand? No, never. Did you ever want to stab them? No. No. Did you ever make plans to stab them? No. If I ever went in the room, it was to wake them up because I was either scared of a nightmare or something like that. But I never went in their room. I didn't. But is there any reason that they would have like nanny cam footage, hidden camera footage of you standing at the end of the bed with a knife in your hand? No. If they had it, they would have produced it, right? Mm-hmm. She said you tried to push her into an electric fence. It was the youngest birthday, so we went to the farm because he likes cows. And then we started walking. I didn't, I got like a quarter of the way and I sat down. And where were you? It was like a trail on a farm. Yeah. And so I sat down because my legs hurt really bad. So Christine had Michael and the boys go up ahead of us. She sat down next to me and was like, that's how you need to get up. So she got up and she was helping me, trying to help me get up. But I fell again and she fell with me. And the electric fence wasn't that far from us. So you guys fell and she said you tried to push her into electric fence? Yeah, it wasn't that far. It's terrible that they're trying to make her out to be this monster. Is that like you to do something like that? We do. And you just find this random person on the street and say, come hang out with us? Well, not typically. We help a lot of people, but my mother, Leigh Hart, was like, there's no way she could take care of herself. I was like, I can't just leave her there. How old were you at that time? I was eight years old, maybe almost nine. So at eight years old, you're living alone in an apartment. And you're getting your own groceries? I actually didn't even go grocery shopping. My landlord took me to like, it was like a gas station or something just to pick up a couple of things. Well, where'd you get your food? The Barnes, they had given me like food that they didn't really eat, like canned foods and stuff like that. And how long did you been in the apartment when you? It wasn't that long. I think maybe about a month and a half. Okay. Well, I have a granddaughter about that age, and I can't imagine her living in an apartment by herself. What did they say to you when they took you over there and dropped you off? They just said, we're going to get you an apartment and we're going to Canada. Did you say I'm eight? I didn't know what to say. I didn't really know what was going on at first, until like after it happened, like I was confused. Were you scared? I was. I didn't really like want to leave the apartment, but I had to go to school. So you went to school? Yes. How far was the school? Maybe about a block away from the house. Is this a new school? Yes, an adult school. Christine, she had signed me up right after I moved in, after that day. Chase, what do you got? I think this video has the highest potential to be a verified case of dooper's delight or dooping delight, a phrase coined by Paul Ekman. Phil says, you're living alone in the apartment at eight. There's a perfect smile, which I think might be at the deception. And in people with little to no remorse or emotional affect, the thrill of getting away with something is more likely to occur here. So you're more likely to see dooper's delight in people with this kind of problem if it's present. Dooping delight isn't necessarily conscious. It's more of a leakage of true emotion kind of coming onto the face. There's no mention of sadness, no mention of fear until Dr. Phil mentioned it. And even then it was only a confirmation. And there's no emotion here. The woman here, the caretaker, I don't know what her name is, has almost all seven hallmarks that I teach to my clients and stuff that demonstrate something that I call hypersuggestibility, meaning that she's super vulnerable to influence. And just this morning I made a post. I posted an article about all seven of these indicators of hypersuggestibility in the Chase Hughes app if you want to read about it. But one of these indicators is the most clear example I've ever seen. And all you have to do is look at her lower eyelids and I'll leave it at that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm not going to cover a whole lot of that, but I will say this. I do think exactly what you just said. The mother, this is the latest adopted mother 100% believes this girl. You can see it. I mean, if there's a true believer in this entire thing, it's her. She goes on later to say that this girl has lost teeth since she's been with her, so that would be a certain age. And she just seems to not respond to some of the other accusations. Who cares about the stabbing in that? But the age piece. The age piece for me starts to look more and more unrealistic. But I will say, look, some kids, when you talk about precociousness, Mark, there's lots of ways children are precocious. I knew a little bitty kid who lived near me who was five years old who could program a VCR. This is a long time ago, a long time ago, could program a VCR, cook, use a microwave at five years old. So people can do all that. It's a matter of how they're raised and what's going on with them. Even I learned how to like fry eggs and bacon when I was five. It's a different world. You know, I'm not a young man. But the other piece here is that whole thing, that whole what we would call doopers to like to me is nothing more than self-amusement or self-satisfaction with whatever it is. And I think amusement starts to show up. I'm going to give this person a benefit of a doubt. I'm starting to not believe the age thing, but I'm also on the fence about most of the other. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, is it credible that an eight year old has the planning ability to be able to live alone? Because that's what we're really talking about is, is can you plan? Can you think about the future? Can you organize yourself so that your demise doesn't happen immediately? Well, to your point, Greg, I've been on building sites in India with eight year olds building, you know, who undoubtedly don't have parents with them and are looking after them themselves. Is she that precocious? Does she have abilities and behaviors beyond her age? If she is at this point a young teenager? Well, it's possible. I mean, does an eight year old have the planning ability to live alone? I don't know. Could an 11 year old go to university? I mean, seems incredible to me. But if we're going to say an 11 year old can go to university, maybe we can say an eight year old under the right circumstances, a real survivor. And remember, kids are designed to survive. All of us that had kids, you know, we've all dropped them, and they're still alive in the main. Okay. And you go, my God, it's just, it's built. They're just built to be, to survive on the whole. Yes, some of them die. Absolutely. I appreciate that. But, but they survive under we survive. If there's one thing we were designed for, it's staying alive and keeping going. Now, yeah, there can be some psychological trauma that comes with that survival. Absolutely. So, you know, a year old living in an apartment, I would be going, what's her IQ? Let's do an IQ test and see what her IQ is, because that's not the only indicator, but it would be a good indicator as to would she have the planning ability? You know, and she's she's been taken into a family that clearly used to having other people around them of of savant level IQ and and ability. So there's some kind of gravitational force that brings that together. Now, I will say, you know, love this show, fantastic. But the thunder and lightning over, you know, how old were you thunder, lightning, black and white picture, you know, subject looking as scarves. It is like, you know, could I know I understand what you try. I need to watch the adverts and get on to the next bit. I understand what's what's happening. I get that. But we've got to make sure that that we take that out of the picture because that is, you know, emotionally manipulative and good, it's entertainment. The fair is in town. I get it. I get it. But because the fair is in town, there's going to be some extremes going on here. Okay, so were you scared? I was, yeah, and and there is a potentially disdain contempt, a rice mile or juper's delight. Okay. So I get that I get that as well, that there's some there's some interesting information in there that tells you somebody could be being cheeky, deceptive and enjoying that deception. At the same time, the idea that an eight year old could could function on their own. It's a possibility like an 11 year old could go to could do advanced mathematics in a university, I would imagine. Look, and I mean, it's interesting how engaged Dr. Phil is here, because I think there's a story here of being left on your own, which is resonant with him. And so, you know, it's an interesting subject for him to look at because I think, you know, I think it's no it's no secret that he's been through not at that age necessarily, but some of those similar situations of having to, you know, survive on your own. So, you know, interesting that she's telling this story to him. One of those tape replays. Is that like you to do something like that? We do. He's done this random person on the street and say, come hang out with us. Well, not typically. We help a lot of people, but my mother, Lea Hart was like, there's no way she could take care of herself. I was like, I can't just leave her there. How old were you at that time? I was eight years old. Maybe almost nine. So, at eight years old, you're living alone in an apartment. Yes. And you're getting your own groceries. I actually, they even go grocery shopping. My landlord took me to like, it was like a gas station or something just to pick up a couple things. Well, where'd you get your food? The Barnes, they had given me like food that they didn't really eat like canned foods and stuff like that. And how long has she been in the apartment when you? Uh, it wasn't that long. I think maybe about a month and a half. Okay. Well, I have a granddaughter about that age and I can't imagine her living in an apartment by herself. What did they say to you when they took you over there and dropped you off? They just said, we're going to get you an apartment and we're going to Canada. Did you say I'm eight? I didn't know what to say. I didn't really know what was going on at first until like after it happened. Like I was confused. Were you scared? I was. I didn't really like want to leave the apartment, but I had to go to school. So you went to school? Yes. How far was the school? Maybe about a block away from the house. Is this a new school? Yes, an adult school. Christine, she had signed me up right after I moved in and left that day. I know I went short at the top. Let me say this about that. And I should have said this. I thought it was so obvious. Um, a child, the reason an eight year old can't survive in that. What if somebody knocks on the door in the middle of the night? You don't know not to go answer the dang door. You may say, don't answer the door. Why don't they keep knocking? Why don't you say, oh, so and so sent me? Where are you going to get food? You've got to have somebody come and get you to take food. If you're to get some food, if you can't do it yourself, who's going to pay the bills? They'll say all the whoever's going to pay the bills, whatever. The mail is going to come there. Who's going to bring the mail in? You've got to go out. If it's an apartment, you've got to go out to those little boxes where all the mail is and get that. And it's going to, it's too dangerous for an eight year old child. They don't know how to run the water, how when to turn the bath water off and make sure it's not too hot. I got a counter for you. When I was eight years old, when I was eight years old, I could do something at least two of you can't now. I don't know about Chase, but I could change oil on a car when I was eight years old because I lived with a person who taught me to do it. Yeah. But the thing is, what I'm talking about is being in an apartment and something happening, anything happening at all. For sure. It's dangerous. It's not, it's not most of our lives. It's dangerous. You don't care if something happens to the kid though. And you put them in there and you, whether you believe they're 22 or they really are 22 is a different story. If you believe they're 22 and you put them there and say, Hey, just do this, tell people you're 22. If they come and knock on the door, they could be put in that situation. That's my only pushback. It's got, I think somewhere in between those two numbers is probably right. Well, they can set the house on fire with a stove, leave it on. They don't know how to cook at eight. Some people say, well, I know how to cook, you know, cheese toast or whatever. Maybe you do, but you can't eat cheese toast all day every day or grill cheese sandwiches or cereal. Yeah, I get your point. Survival can eat same thing day after day after day. Look, I'm saying, I'm not saying that this necessarily happened here, Scott, but the idea that an eight year old can't look after themselves under the right circumstances. Yes, they, yes, they can. Now is it dangerous? Oh, yeah, they could die. They could some die in the process. Some, some would die for sure. Some stay alive. I think this one depends on their IQ. I think I think this one would die in that process. If she were eight, you mean? Yeah. If she were eight. Yeah. What's funny from a biological perspective, children become independent even up to 100,000 years ago at age seven, which is now ironically why most divorces occur when children are around age seven, because subconsciously the parents know that the child has become seven. They suddenly go, I remember it from myself. I remember going, I don't have to take instruction. I can decide what happens. And it was a huge relief at seven going, I can decide. I can now, I can die due to my decisions for sure. But that seven year old adjustment is an amazing thing. Yeah. Well, yeah. If you think back to your childhood, what you remember at two and three is not memory. It's something, but it's spotty little pieces. When you get to eight, you got a pretty clear memory of what eight was. I don't, I don't know what world you guys are living in. If you think an eight year old can live by itself in an apartment when it goes outside. I've seen them mill in India. I know when the child goes outside so I could take it and get hit by a car and get run over. Sure. So many things could happen. Yeah. I hate a point. That's, it's crazy talk. You could never, I would dare it. Mark, you would leave your eight year old son. Well, because, because, because I'm a good parent. Right. There's the point. Okay. But what I'm saying is, I don't live in an emerging economy. You don't have the confidence of an eight year old, you're eight year old staying in an apartment by itself for two days, not checking in on it. You wouldn't do that because you wouldn't do that to them. Can they survive? No. Well, let me give you a data point because we're going to, we're going to keep doing this. If we don't get a data point, the parents lived very close and visited and brought stuff. Yeah. That's hard. Well, of course, obviously it's horrible parenting, but you can't an eight year old and she goes to school every day. She's going to have medical things to do, you know, doctor's appointments with, if you have a situation like that, adult school. Yeah, for sure. And you would think, here's my thing. Somebody should have noticed at adult school, this is an eight year old. Exactly. Yeah. How can you read? How can you read adult books when you're eight years old? What's going on, man? That's what I'd want. That's, that's I don't know. How can you go to the university when you're 11? Well, you're a genius. We're going to chase our, which makes it a great show. Okay. So that's a great idea. It's not impossible. I quit. I quit. This is it, man. I've hit the wall. We're going to have to, we have to clean that one up. No, I'll leave it at it. Just like it is discussion. It means everybody's going to be doing this, you know, that's why the show's there. Yeah, we knew that when we started. Mark's like, I don't know. If you come here from a group home at six, best case, you're probably functioning at developmentally at four or five. So you go into an apartment functioning at six or seven. A six or seven year old child living in an apartment alone for a year. That's just not believable to me. How does that happen? I think that she groomed her before she did this to have her ready for that. But in terms of activities of daily living, health, food, stove, working with an oven, a six year old child just simply doesn't know how to do the activities of daily living for independent existence. Well, I know in the apartment when we met her, she didn't use the stove. She cooked in the microwave. Did she teach you a routine? She didn't really teach me like how to like take care of myself, but she did say like if someone asks you how old you are, you tell them that you're 22. And who paid the bills? Michael. So all you had to do was go stay behind that closed door. Why did they want to get rid of you so badly? I don't know. You know, you leave one family because they say you were violent with the boy and almost broke his arm. And then you're with another family and they say, well, you tried to poison her, threaten to stab him. You've had her now for six or seven years. It's almost seven years. In this six or seven years, have any of the things that she has been accused of doing that this prior family has alleged that she's done happened at your home? No, not at all. She would get into trouble just like any normal child would. She didn't display any kind of psychotic behavior. We've had three kids since she's been with us. She's been there for the delivery of one literally in the delivery room. All right, Greg, what do you got? So I see disapproval and purse lips when she's going through this conversation. There's also some sarcasm and contempt and that vocal fry in this case is not like this is condemning and judgmental. You can't miss it as she's kind of angry about this. There's a new adapter and a barrier as she puts her hand on her leg and she starts to move her fingers. Her lips purse when they're going to Canada and that head nod that she's doing I think is her in contempt for these folks. Whether she was eight or 18, who knows? Don't care. She's angry about this. I think it shows very clearly. Mark, what do you see? Yeah, Canada is a lovely place and many of you should visit. You should leave somebody in your care to do that regardless of the age. I'm not sure, especially if they're a young teenager, a tween. Look, here's what comes, you know, there is a stillness to her and composure that is not does not correlate to a 16-year-old under stress and pressure. Now, so, you know, that was my instant reaction to this. There is something about her demeanor which is way beyond her years and experience for somebody in this situation. For somebody of her age, I would want to see more concave here now. And then I go, well, hang on. She has a body type which is, you know, out of the ordinary. I would want to see more self soothing from her. Yeah. And then I think to myself, yeah, but she's been potentially through if she's been through the traumas that she's been through, she might be beyond self soothing and the carer keeps on soothing her. And then I go, well, she's very comfortable with that for a 16-year-old. You know, many 16-year-olds that I'm thinking of after a while would go, yeah, come on, leave me alone. I'm all right. I'm an adult. I'm big now. I'm an adult now. Well, okay, but there may be a discrepancy there between, you know, does she have the emotional capacity of somebody of her age? She may well have an intellectual capacity way beyond her age. So precocious beyond her years feels very odd at this point in this situation, but at the same time, it's not impossible. It's not impossible. Chase, what do you go on this one? Yeah, I tend to agree. And when Dr. Phil is talking about food, stove, just daily existence, watch her eyes. She goes into this mental processing plan to plan out how to respond to all this. That's not deceptive on its own. Remember, we always talk about clusters here. But then the adults here go ahead and do it all for her as if she's still a tiny kid. And notice, she doesn't explain this at all. And in my opinion, a rational, reasonable person, which she is claiming to be, would be totally fine explaining what daily life was like and how they managed to survive. You know what else they would have? Emotions about it. Any emotion. And there's not much of anything here. Scott. All right. I think she's brought a team with her, in other words, to help her with this. I don't think it was laid out as a team. And let's do this. But I think that's what those, the parents are functioning as to keep her protected, not only from the world because she's, she was eight or what? No, she's not eight, but protected from the world to protect her from what's going on there. And so when Dr. Phil has questions, did this happen? This happened? Yes, it did. Or did this not happen? No, it didn't. So I think, I think they're, they're acting as well as, as, as a, as a team at that point, rubbing on her hand, being very protective over. So, and I think Dr. Phil made, helped make my point there about being eight years old and not be able to survive. Mark. There's not a lot of factors that I agree, Mark. Yeah, there is. I'm just messing with you, man. One of those tape replays. If you come here from a group home at six, best case, you're probably functioning at, developmentally, at four or five. So you go into an apartment functioning at six or seven. A six or seven year old child living in an apartment alone for a year, that's just not believable to me. How does that happen? I think that she groomed her before she did this to have her ready for this. But in terms of activities of daily living, health, food, stove, working with an oven, a six year old child just simply doesn't know how to do the activities of daily living for independent existence. Right. Well, I know in the apartment when we met her, she didn't use the stove. She cooked in the microwave. Did she teach you a routine? She didn't really teach me how to take care of myself, but she did say if someone asks you, how old you are, you tell them that you're 22. And who paid the bills? Michael. So all you had to do was go stay behind that closed door. Why did they want to get rid of you so badly? I don't know. You know, you leave one family because they say you were violent with the boy and almost broke his arm. And then you're with another family and they say, well, you tried to poison her, threaten to stab him. You've had her now for six or seven years. It's almost seven years. In this six or seven years, have any of the things that she has been accused of doing that this prior family has alleged that she's done happened at your home? No, not at all. She would get into trouble just like any normal child would. She didn't display any kind of psychotic behavior. We've had three kids since she's been with us. She's been there for the delivery of one literally in the delivery room. You know, I was messing with you, Mark. Oh, you should watch it. Watch him. Watch him at the end of the full show. No, you know, I was messing with you earlier, right? Yeah. No, no, I'm just saying. I'm just saying other people will have maybe watched the full show and know his reaction at the end. Oh, yeah. What is it? Yeah. Yeah. I'll keep it a secret from you. Yeah. Okay. But it isn't what you're thinking it is, I think. Yeah. Oh, Dave, I run down. I don't care. I'm telling you what I see or what I think. I would go no further down that line that you're going. They say that you scam them, that you lied about your age and came over here and terrorized them. It's not true at all. And if that were true, it would have been exhibited with you. You haven't seen that, right? And we have other children. We have a grandson. She does nothing but loves her siblings and her nephew. She has never showed any signs of those things that they say she did. She acts just like a big sister. She makes bottles for them. She gives them clothes if she needs to. She makes them lunch sometimes. Yes. Everything that the next brother or sister would do for their siblings, she does. Here's what America is asking themselves right now. Okay. Here's this obviously very nice couple. And they've got a 14-year-old, a seven-year-old and a newborn on the way. And they're moving in a child that somebody's saying she can look okay one minute and be psychotic the next. Were you at all concerned at the time that we could be putting the children that we have in jeopardy? Mark, where you got? Yeah. Okay. So I see real tears. It's not impossible to produce those. So it could be that she's got no feelings and she's managed to execute some very, very good, subtle tearing there. I mean, really good. It's more probable, I would say, that it's the real thing. So interesting. I don't know that for sure. I'm just going on probability based on my experience. It feels to me, look, is this just a case of a person of whatever age? I put here myself, Craig as well, that a person of whatever age, at some points, they just need a home where they're accepted and loved and they reform and their behavior changes. Okay. And really, that's all I can say about this one, because there's something here of quite a human story, if it is reform, that as an errant teenager, and the Dr. Phil show does work very well with those kind of personalities. They are great on the show because an errant teenager off the rails is like nothing else that you've seen. They know no consequence. They got hormones going around their body that means even if they are socially adjusted, if those hormones are at a certain level, like all bets are off as to what the behavior is going to be. And even whether there's going to be any apology or acknowledgement afterwards. But could this person go into a home whereby there is a distinct change of behavior and what often some of the systems that we've all worked in would then call reform, essentially. Is there reform? Well, those systems hope that is the case. I know from my experience that in many cases reform is a lovely dream, but not a possibility with some personality, some personalities. But is it possible with her? Could it have happened here? Yeah, I think it is. It is possible no matter what age. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right. I think we're back into the manipulation of emotions here because when the tears come down, I think they're a real mark. Somehow she's been able to get those out. She didn't wipe them off. So normally, personally, they'll tear up and you'll see them start wiping their tears off. She lets them go all the way down so everybody can see them. And then there's the parents again. I don't know if they, I'm sure they must have sat in that way, set them so far apart. The mom from the dad, you know, and I don't know what the reasoning would be for that. Because when we were on there, we sat pretty close before and we're talking. And so I don't think it's my leakage or anything or for the shot. But I mean, they're pretty far apart when you look at that. I think we're looking a little bit of manipulation. She's trying to, if she was a con, she's trying to manipulate him emotionally, trying to settle things down a little bit. Chase, what do you got? Well, we are finally getting some emotions. And when Dr. Phil asked about these other families making accusations of the terrorizing and stuff, she says, it's not true at all. During this denial, there is a crystal clear expression of disgust. And if you just want to imagine what disgust does to your face, imagine opening a thing of milk that's like seven months past, do it expired and sticking your nose in there. Disgust makes everything on your face go towards the middle pretty much. That's kind of what it does. So then the lower jaw comes out again, which we do universally when we're concealing anger or attempting to. And about these tears, the tears you're seeing on the face aren't being matched with a hint of sadness. Although the edits cut her out a lot, there's no sadness on the facial expression. There's no sadness genuinely present on the face. So this crying is either something being performed. Number one, mimicked number two, because it's an expected behavior she's witnessed from other people. Or it's out of genuine self pity. It could be maybe one of those three. That's all I got. Scott. Yeah, so it might be self pity, but something is causing her pain. The reason I say that is look at her chin. Look at her chin, boss. We always talk about that. It's engaged in this one. No grief muscle, but she doesn't use her forehead a whole lot. Anyway, we see very little forehead movement in her. And I see that as control tears that escape. I think this may be, look, people I've known who are emotionless when you get a tear, it's almost anger in them most of the time. It's real close to them coming unbolted because they don't know how to use those emotions typically. There's also a couple of other interesting things. When people in their preteens or people are really young, you'll see a lot of expression of emotion in their face as they're trying to learn to control those, where we all will mask often they can't. She's masking pretty strongly. I think if she were young, I would expect to see those emotions boil out and she's awfully controlled. But again, we get back to her past. Mark, I think you said sometimes people need to be loved. I think it's even more than that. Look, if you're the kind of person who lashes out with anger and aggression out of whether it's grief or whatever causes you to do it and you lash out with anger and aggression and the people you live with think that's a horrible thing and respond in kind, then there's an escalation. Whereas, if you get with these people, they seem to be pretty laid back. I mean, we can't tell, but they may be accustomed to children who lash out with their biological children or others, and they just go, yeah, okay, whatever. And then there's a thing called extinction of behavior. If you need to reward or punish behavior disappears. And that happens fairly often in these situations. So let's just give that the benefit of a doubt. But there is a lot of masking. There's a lot of stuff going on. The one place that makes me really interested is go back and watch when Dr. Phil asked, you haven't seen any of that, have you? Look at the apprehension in her body language, your hand moves just a little and her face opens up her eyes look over and she breathes in a deep breath. Makes me wonder if when they first got together, there was not a lot of that kind of acting out something changed. And this woman seems pretty patient like she's that kind of person. So it can change behaviors. Remember, we talk about asymmetric behavior, changing behavior. When somebody's screaming and yelling at you, if you look at them and go, Chase, I could tell you're upset. What can I do to make this better? That person will tone right down because they feel really stupid yelling at someone who isn't yelling. Sometimes that's what it takes. It's all I got. One of those tape replays. They say that you scam them, that you lied about your age and came over here and terrorized them. It's not true at all. And if that were true, it would have been exhibited with you. You haven't seen that. Right. And we have other children. We have a grandson. She does nothing but loves her siblings and her nephew. She has never showed any signs of those things that they say she did. She acts just like a big sister. She makes bottles for them. She gets the clothes that she needs to. She makes lunch sometimes. Everything that the next brother or sister would do for their siblings, she does. Here's what America's asking themselves right now. Okay. Here's this obviously very nice couple. And they've got a 14 year old, a seven year old and a newborn on the way. And they're moving in a child that somebody's saying she can look okay one minute and be psychotic the next. Were you at all concerned at the time that we could be putting the children that we have in jeopardy? We were not. You say you're 16. Are you a 33 year old scam artist? No. No. No. I promise you I'm not. But you understand the inconsistencies here because if somebody asked me can you drop an eight year old child off in an apartment for a year and come back and they'll be doing fine. I would say absolutely not. Right. But yet that's what we're expected to believe here that without cash, credit cards, physical abilities to do certain things that she just function fine in an apartment for a year, that's hard to believe. We get that. But when she stayed in her first apartment, they were there more. It was the second apartment. I believe if we wouldn't have met her, it would have been terrible for her. Okay. So the Barnets, Christine and Michael, you say had her re-aged. Yes. All right, Greg, what do you got? I'm just going to do one thing here. I'm only going to talk about one thing and that is that absolute baseline deviation when she's accused of being an evil dwarf overlord or whatever he calls her. And you see that baseline change with that really nervous face. Sometimes it's just that. But there's a great follow up by Dr. Phil that says it's because. I'll just leave it at that. Why? Why? Why? My nature is to say baseline deviation is everything. I don't know whether it's because she's done something in the past, whether it's because all this is true, but something is wrong in that video. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So she finds the idea, I would say, of being a 33 year old scam artist, which is kind of what's put forward, 33 year old scam artist. There's that laughter. And I think she finds it absurd. Now, I'm not saying that's a good thing, because I think she should rather find that more distressing if she was a young girl at the time. However, putting with this that she may well be precocious, then who knows what the reaction should be in this situation. Again, this is such an extraordinary situation that number one, we're doing a show and we're having great conversations about it. I'm sure you're there at home going, what on earth is going on here? What is it? Is it this or is it this or is it this? Dr. Phil's got a great show on it. There's a TV show on it. Well, why? Because everything here, as Phil says, is hard to believe. But his show is not about easy to fathom. If his show was about, well, we've got this one sorted out, easy to fathom, he would have no show. It would be over in seconds. Are you a 33 year old, small psychopath? No. All right, great. Thank you. Goodbye. Enjoy the adverts. The show would be over if it were easy to fathom. So this is an extraordinary situation. And here's the possibility. It could be doubly extraordinary. There is the possibility that CBS here have somebody who is, who looks like they could be a 33 year old con artist, who is actually a 16 year old small child. It's possible because why wouldn't a TV station go and find that? Do you think that's available on the planet? I've been a lot of places on the planet and most stuff is available. I've not found anything that you can't get. Or if you don't want it, somebody isn't getting it. So it is out there somewhere. It's out there somewhere. So look, it's Hollywood. This is Hollywood and there's a lot of possibility here. So I don't know. I don't know. What's so brilliant about this is I don't know what's going on here for sure. I don't know what's going on here. Chase, what have you got on this one? Well, notice how there's not one look for approval or recognition to the caretakers here. Not one time. And an average teen would be doing this pretty often if they were indeed in this situation pretty frequently. And there's something that I would suggest might not just be amusement, but might be duping the light off the charts. If that is true, that it's duping the light, then I think she realized the emotion is coming out unexpectedly and continues this display as a denial. And just to help her, you know, say that this is the reason the laughter came out. That's all I got here. Scott, what do you guys? He doesn't defend herself when he's talking about not being able to take care of herself and those types of things when he's talking to the parents. She's over there goofing around with the Kleenex and doing all kinds of stuff. At that point, she would jump in and say, no, wait a minute, man, I can do this. I know how to do this. You should see me doing that. I can cook this. I'd go out and get the mail. She would be telling what she was doing. I would think because that's what I'd be doing. We say, no, hang on a minute, man. I'll tell you how I did that. You want to know how I survived? I did this by myself. She should be proud of it, but we're not seeing anything emotionally from her. And on your right chest, Chase, they're not checking on her. You know, she's not really, she gives it that side. I look up a couple of times. That's about it. So the emotions that should be there, in my opinion, from her standpoint at that age, I don't see him there. I will say, that's everybody. I will say our first time we were on Dr. Phil, I was sitting there in those giant chairs. I was like, I don't know where to look. Where do I put my eyes? What do I do? So, yeah, maybe that's what's going on. Yeah. The first time I was on there by myself. This is in the house. This is in the house. And you don't, you weren't even accused of being a 33-year-old, you know, dual-vish psychopath. You're right. 37 during that one. Right, exactly. When I was, the age difference. The first time I was on there by myself, you know, I was, and I was in that big chair. And you know how we're used to training, you know. And so when, when he asked a question, then of course I would turn the audience and start explaining to the people you're training, right? But no, because during that, he goes like this. He goes, look at me, look at me. And I felt so horrible because I realized then, yeah, hey man, first time out. Scott Rauscher. Yeah, how's it going? Yeah, you're not a trainer, but you're talking to him. They just happened to be there. You know what I mean? Oh man, I still boss. You ever lay awake at night and think about things and just go, oh man, but he handled it cool. It's cool. There's drugs. That didn't shame me. That's what red wine is for, Scott. You should try it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a big drinker. Should start. One of those tape replays. You say you're 16. Are you a 33-year-old scam artist? No. No, no, I promise you I'm not. But you understand the inconsistencies here because if somebody asked me, can you drop an eight-year-old child off in an apartment for a year and come back and they'll be doing fine, I would say absolutely not. Right. But yet that's what we're expected to believe here, that without cash, credit cards, physical abilities to do certain things that she just functioned fine in an apartment for a year, that's hard to believe. We get that. But when she stayed in her first apartment, they were there more. It was the second apartment. I believe if we wouldn't have met her, it would have been terrible for her. Okay, so the Barnettes, Christine and Michael, you say had her re-aged. Yes. So I guess it comes down to whether or not you are an evil psychopath demon child that's come over here to murder everybody. Oh my, you're right. I mean, you know, she's painted you as an evil sociopath. Some evil dwarf is gonna like pop up and poison their coffee or stab them in their sleep or whatever. But if that's true, I guess they brought out the worst in you because you certainly haven't tried to murder you two. Let's assume they've made all of this up. And, you know, oftentimes there's this person's version and this person's version and the full truth is somewhere in between because nobody ever gets it all correct. There's been a page torn from Hollywood here with this movie, The Orphan, this Russian woman right next door to Ukraine, 30 years old, pretends to be a teen, gets adopted by a family, comes in, terrorizes them, creates all this habit. And here we've got this individual from the Ukraine that has been said to be as much as 33 comes in, terrorizes this family. And you've been thrust into that drama. Yeah. And if Christina has made all of this up, she wasn't very creative. She tore it from this movie. I was just going to say that because The Orphan came out one year before they did this to her, literally. But what confounds all of that is you've been seven years with these people. No drama. No problem. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So here's what I'd say. There is good sympathy between the interviewer, Dr. Phil, here, the subject and the carer. Phil comes in with this extreme idea in what I would suggest, based on my understanding of his behavior, quite a playful manner. He's poking just a little bit, but there's a lot of play in there. I don't think he quite means that. I think she joins in on that and enjoys the play of that and the female carer joins in as well. So some really interesting solid sympathy between all of them. Now, has everybody been conned in the room? Well, it depends. For me, the con artist is the person who gains the confidence of others, not necessarily that they are confident themselves. Often a really good con artist will diminish their status, diminish their confidence to make others confident. And that for me is why it's called the confidence trick, is you're trying to find out what would make that person so confident that they would lose all reason. So are we being conned? If you are thinking this is a young girl, a 16-year-old, and we're being conned right now, well, what is that confidence trickster? What moment of confidence are they giving us? How are they making us feel more than we were before that we will abandon all reason and go, no, well, an 88-year-old in those circumstances could survive somewhat. Look, I don't know the answer to that. There is still for me a strong possibility she is developed beyond her years. And therefore the behaviors, given the situation that she's been in in her life, are not going to be average behavior, any of us abnormal behaviors. Has she grown up fast? Does she have a high IQ? Has she had to survive? Interesting. I don't know. I don't have a certain answer for that. Greg, what do you got on this one? I'm going to be very brief on this one. So if we look, the mother is a true believer like a good mom. She's sitting there handling her, you're touching her hand, trying to make sure she's there. But the one thing that's interesting is Natalia does look a little bit apprehensive as his mother's answering questions, just like she was in the last one. As Dr. Phil's rattling off all these things, she shouldn't know if she's a certain age. You can see a little bit of fear in her eyes. Look at her eyes. Look at the narrowing of her eyes and the broadening of the bottom. But look, she's locked down. She's contained. I think it's a learned behavior. I think whether she's 22, 65, 13, it's a learned behavior for her to be so controlled. Chase, what do you got? One thing you don't see, and I watched this entire interview, is her calling Christine, I think this previous mother who made these accusations, a liar. She refers to her statements, this woman's statements as Christine's side. That is bizarre to me. She also says, I don't want people to see me as what they have been saying I am. Instead of, I want people to see me for the truth or those lies should not define who I am. Then she says, I want them to see me, not what people are saying. This points to me like she has experienced what could potentially be a genuine recovery or from whatever behaviors happened, she seems to be good now. Scott? All right. I think what you were talking about, Mark, for Dr. Phil, I think he summed the whole show up and the whole thoughts on the whole thing by saying, are you a little psychopath or are you a normal person? This stuff really happened. I thought that was done really well. For a lot of this, it's really confusing because I think she is manipulating everyone there. I think we are seeing a lot of these things of a con, but I'm not so sure she's a con at this point. It's kind of tough. I agree with you, Mark. It's sort of a tough call because you look at it and you go, how smart is this kid or is this person? I'm going to listen to how she talks and her sentence structure. The thing that really stands out to me is her accent. I hear a hint to something in there, but I'm not really sure what that is. I would think it'd be a little bit heavier if she hadn't been in the, well, maybe she wasn't talking at all when she first was adopted or whatever and came to America. I don't know. The whole thing is just still confusing for me. One of those tape replays. So I guess it comes down to whether or not you are an evil psychopath demon child that's come over here to murder everybody. You're right. I mean, she's painted you as an evil sociopath. Some evil dwarf is going to like pop up and poison their coffee or stab them in their sleep or whatever, but if that's true, I guess they brought out the worst in you because you certainly haven't tried to murder you too. Let's assume they've made all of this up. Oftentimes, there's this person's version and this person's version and the full truth is somewhere in between because nobody ever gets it all correct. There's been a page torn from Hollywood here with this movie, The Orphan. This Russian woman right next door to Ukraine, 30 years old, pretends to be a teen, gets adopted by a family, comes in, terrorizes them, creates all this havoc. And here we've got this individual from the Ukraine that has been said to be as much as 33 comes in, terrorizes this family, and you've been thrust into that drama. And if Christina has made all of this up, she wasn't very creative. She tore it from this movie. I was just gonna say that because The Orphan came out one year before they did this to her, literally. But what confounds all of that is you've been seven years with these people, no drama, no problem. Just one more thing. All right, Mark, what do you think we've seen so far? I think we've seen one of the most amazing stories that we've ever come across. I mean, I truly think that it's old school, it's Jungian, it reaches to the heart of the problem. So I've been fascinated by it. I'm intrigued by going and watching this show that's been done on it. I'm on for more. If we've got more on this, I'll get into it. Chase, what do you think you've seen? I will see your Jungian story and I will raise you, this is a Joseph Campbell Heroes' Journey. It's a Heroes' Journey in many regards. And if there's a chance, if there's a chance that she's an adult sociopath, as claimed, it's very possible she could have adapted into this new family's lifestyle and lived a semi-normal life based on the adaptation and learning that took place. This is beyond bizarre as a whole. I don't think there is a good chance that no matter what, the truth actually is that these people, children or adults, sociopaths or not, can be happy. I think there's a good chance they can be happy and not hurt anybody, which at the end of the day is the recipe for a good life, I guess. Greg? Yeah, well, I don't conjecture. I will say this. I think that the truth is somewhere between those two posts. What the adoptive parents who left her in the house said and what she said are probably related. She probably did do some of the stuff they said with a knife with acting out because let's assume for just a minute, forget six. Let's say she's 12 and she was masquerading as six to get adopted because kids who are 12 don't get adopted. Just take that as a hypothetical. Then she comes here and she's lashing out because that's what she knows. She's not a very physical person, so she lashes out with words or threats and tools. Then of course, now a person who sees this hyperbole and we'll see her father before too long. And when we see her father, these people talk in big grandiose words that are very different in the way she speaks. Now somewhere in the middle of that's probably the truth. And I think her age is probably somewhere in the middle as well. Scott, what do you got? I totally agree with you. I think she came on being a little mean person there for a while and then realized you can't keep doing that. And she got hooked up with some people she liked. I think it's kind of straight enough for her. But at the same time, I think this is a really good one because we still don't know what the hell is going on in there. We can't figure it out. Nobody can. So it's one of those things where you just look at it and go, wow, what's going on? So that's the way I feel because I look at this and I go, I see some con in there, man. But that may be the way she approaches the world from being in a situation she's in, trying to get, you know, being afraid of failure or whatever and trying to get along with it. So she's got along so far. If she has been with 30 families and she has been through all that stuff, then you're going to, like Greg was talking about earlier, you're going to take on some of these things to make sure to help, they'll be in your toolkit to help things go smoothly for you. And they may be a little manipulative and they may be a little, you know, redirective from one thing to the next thing to something that's even better, you know, distracting to get things done. So I just, I think this is a fascinating one. I feel like right now we're sort of at a point where we all sort of think the same thing. We're not sure what's, I'm at the point where I'm really not sure what that's going on here. So I think this is a good one and we'll see you next time. you