 Welcome to Abraham, out of one many, an engaging art exhibition brought to you by Interfaith Ministries for Greater Houston and curated by Caravan and international arts NGO non-profit that is recognized as a leader in using the arts to further our global quest for a more harmonious future both with each other and with the earth. Interfaith Ministries is Houston's oldest service organization. Dialogue, collaboration and service have been at the heart of our work for over 50 years. Our programs fall into four areas. We are Texas's largest meals on wheels program covering six counties but primarily in Harris and Galveston counties. We're one of the top 10 largest meals on wheels programs in the country. We also have a strong refugee services resettlement program working with Episcopal migration ministries to help resettle refugees into the Houston area. Volunteer Houston connects individuals groups and companies with non-profit agencies to transform the greater Houston community for good through volunteerism and interfaith relations and community partnerships fosters understanding, respect and engagement among people of all faiths. Our CP is thrilled to be able to host this exhibit. Please visit www.imgh.org to learn more about us. Between April 20th and May 21st we hosted Abraham out of one many. Virtual exhibit of 15 paintings by three celebrated artists from the Middle East. We had planned to host these paintings in person in our Brigitte and Bashar Kallai Plaza of Respect and Great Hall in April of 2020 but COVID derailed those plans. We were thrilled to work with Caravan to create a virtual gallery experience so that we were able to reschedule the exhibit. A virtual experience allowed for a wide variety of accessible programs including the program you're about to enjoy. We are grateful to the sponsors that made this event possible especially our lead donors, Joanie and David Andrews, Debbie and Floyd Kearns, Marion and Paul Cones and Carol and Frank Grun. This exhibit came to us through the incredible work of Caravan. Its mission is based on the belief that the arts can be one of the most effective mediums to heal our world and to creatively foster peace, harmony, wholeness and health in all its forms. Caravan originated out of an artistic bridge building initiative in Cairo, Egypt in 2009 that focused on addressing the then growing chasm of discord and misunderstanding between the people's cultures and creeds of the Middle East and the West. The nomadic Caravan theme comes out of the founding vision to encourage and facilitate those from diverse backgrounds and worldviews to journey together through the arts. While Caravan's mission is global in focus, they maintain an ongoing program emphasis on the Middle East due to their founding. We invite you to visit oncaravan.org to learn more about the organization. The Multifaith Council is a membership organization comprised of a network of allied communities of faith that sustain and expand IM's interfaith relations and community partnerships efforts to engage faith leaders in dialogue, collaboration and respect. The council is made up of members who want to be bridge builders by building respect and understanding to support the work of IM's interfaith relations and community partnerships department and debris resource when we seek support to respond to community needs. This event was especially designed for Multifaith Council members and we welcome committee members from the three faiths represented in the exhibit to share their reflections. We welcome the Reverend Danny Yang, Westbury United Methodist Church, Rabbi Samantha Saffron, the Evelyn Rubenstein Jewish Community Center, and Dr. Kawaja Azimuddin from the Islamic Art Society. Let's join Kim Mabry, program manager, as she introduces the event. One many, a beautiful exhibit that features artwork from three talented artists about living harmoniously in today's world. The exhibit is the brainchild of the right Reverend Paul Gordon Chandler, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Wyoming. This traveling exhibition was supposed to take place as an in-person exhibit last May against the backdrop of the Bridget and Bashar Calai Plaza of Respect at the Interfaith Ministries building, but COVID-19 changed our plans as it has many of yours. The exhibit halted its international journey in February of 2020 and all subsequent host sites canceled or postponed their events. We here at IM are the first site to reschedule and choose to host it as a virtual exhibit. While an in-person experience has many advantages, we have found that this virtual experience offers creative opportunities and rich experiences as well. And we think that today's program promises to be just that and we hope that you feel the same. During April and May, this exhibit will unite people in learning, dialogue, and art appreciation through programming planned by Interfaith Relations and Community Partnerships Department here at IM. Events such as Faith in Our City sessions on Zoroastrianism and the Muslim traditions, a dinner dialogue, our third annual Gershenson lecture, and a special one-time-only program with the three artists who will be calling in from three different places in our world. All of these events can be found on our calendar of events on our website and we will put that link to our website in the chat box for you so you can register right after this. As we hope you are going to join in many of those other programs and that this isn't your first or your last event with us for the Abraham exhibit. Now while today's program will focus on just three of the 15 paintings in the exhibit, we want to make sure that you know that after today's event you have a bonus if you can stay on and watch a 30-minute tour of the entire exhibit led by my colleague Reverend Greg Kahn. But for today's discussion, our focus will be on one of the primary and most well-known stories of Abraham's life, the sacrifice of Abraham and Sarah's child, or at least the near sacrifice, as Abraham's knife never strikes the child. That is why in Hebrew the story is called the akada, or the binding. While the child named in the Christian and Jewish traditions is Isaac, it is important to recognize that the child is assumed to be Ishmael and Islam, reflecting the centrality of those two children and those three faith traditions. It is this story that inspires today's focused painting selection entitled, Sacrificial Love. And to discuss this topic and the art that it inspired, we have faith leaders from all three traditions here with us today to discuss the impact of this most famous of Abrahamic stories. I am most grateful to have with us today Reverend Danny Yang, who has been the senior pastor at Westbury United Methodist Church since July 2016. His first job was as a semiconductor engineer at Advanced Micro Devices before switching careers and entering the religious ministry. Next, we have Rabbi Samantha Safran. She is director of the Bobby and Vic Samuel Center for Jewish Living and Learning at the Evelyn Rubenstein Jewish Community Center here in Houston, where she has served for the past nine years. And we have with us Dr. Kawaja Azimuddin. He is a gastrointestinal surgeon here in Houston, and he is a published author and a ceramic artist, and is also the president of the Islamic Art Society, which aims to share the rich heritage of Islamic arts. And we will have links for you to all of their organizations that they represent and the follow-up email that you'll get after today's event. Now, as we go into our discussion, I want to encourage all of you to put any questions that you have in the chat box, because at the end we'll have a short session of question and answer, and so we're happy to read those from the chat box and give those to our panelists. So keep in mind any questions and feel free to populate the chat box with that. But to start, we're going to begin with a question that's a little more personal in nature, and ask our panelists, why did you say yes to this invitation? What about this topic? Sparked your interest. Panelists, who feels brave to jump in there? Okay, so this is Dr. Azimuddin. Thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate this fantastic opportunity, and thank you everyone for joining in. I'm the chairman of the Islamic Arts Society, which aims to share the heritage heritage of Islamic arts. In doing so, we actually hope to bring people together, and Reverend Hahn has been to many of our festivals, and really it's a common sharing. We call people and they come and visit us, and we open up a dialogue, we talk to each other, and the idea being that with arts, people let down their guards and open up freely talk to each other. So our idea is to promote mutual respect between people of different faiths. So when I heard about this program of shade and history, and the art that binds us together, it was a no-brainer for me, and I jumped in. Thank you for the invitation. I'm happy to go next. Hi everybody. So glad to be with you this afternoon. I was interested in participating first because I love interfaith ministries, and my colleagues over there are very special to me, and so whenever we have the chance to collaborate, and I can do it. I am in, I am on board, and especially with a program like this, I have a personal love of the arts and for art in general. What I love about art, and we'll get into this a little bit later, but for me, art is a form of expression and is open to interpretation very much in the way that I think Jewish tradition and our Jewish heritage and Jewish stories have been open to interpretation by our Jewish commentators and scholars over centuries and generations, and so to me there's a very strong connection between art and Jewish tradition, and I'm always happy to talk more about that. Thank you. And Reverend Yang? Similar to what you've heard, what attracted me to this is just the spirit of interfaith ministries to hear how God speaks in different traditions. I'm just in general a very curious person, so I wanted to participate to learn in my attraction to art. It really took hold during my years at St. Paul's United Methodist Church where Kim and I worked together for a few years. St. Paul's is across the street from the Museum of Fine Arts of Houston, and so it is a great place to work when you need a lunch break or just thinking, you just cross the street and you're at a world-class museum, and I think those years there taking frequent breaks, crossing the street, art can speak the truth in ways that words can't, and that's from someone who I traffic in words. Like that is like everything that words but it is true that art does something that words can never express. Thank you. Before we dive into the paintings, I think it would be interesting to hear the three of you tell us about your own personal understanding or interpretation of the Agadas story, this most famous story of Abraham. Just how have you personally been been touched by that story and what's your understanding? Did we go in the same order? Absolutely. Dr. Azamuddin, go ahead. Okay. So growing up in a Muslim tradition and in a family, we've always used to see this Eid al-Adha, the festival of sacrifice. It's celebrated all over the Muslim world and it's this celebrating the very sacrifice of Abraham. But surprisingly, as you mentioned, in the Muslim faith, it is Ishmael, not Isaac, who Abraham took for the sacrifice. Abraham had this dream again and again. Every night he had this dream where an angel came and asked him to do this command to fulfill the desire from God and Abraham was very disturbed and he didn't know what to do. But when the dream kept repeating, he was convinced that it was God who was instructing him to do this. So he actually confides in our tradition, he confides in Ishmael and Ishmael says, well, father, you are a pious man and God is not going to lead you astray. He must be sending a message, please do so. So it was also Ishmael who was steadfast and obedient in following the word of God or the will of God. So both father and son set out on this journey where the ultimate aim was to sacrifice. So this is the tradition that in our Muslim countries we celebrate every year and remembering this tradition. Thank you very much. And Reverend Yang, how about you? Okay, there's nothing easy about this story. I think on one hand, anthropology could just say this was a rejection of human sacrifice because that was a practice in the ancient Near East and similar religion around then. Why we would want to even think about that is because there's a sense of wanting to show appreciation and gratitude to God. So you bring gifts and offerings. This is something many religious cultures do. Let me show my thanks to God. And what is the most precious thing that a parent has? And so somewhere it gets, I don't know where to say, but somewhere online some cultures decided what about human sacrifice. And this story becomes a rejection of that and saying that God does not want that. But I think that's still a hard story to hear. And another interpretation I've read before is that it's a warning about our relationship to God. And so if you read the story in Genesis, Abraham's whole relationship with God, Abraham in the past has been very argumentative with God in a good way. So he will argue like, if there's 40 good people, what about 20? What about 10? So he has conversations with God. And yet when God asks him to do this, Abraham shuts down. And he doesn't argue, which is very odd. And it seems like something fractured their relationship. And if you read the account in Genesis, at least after this episode, Abraham no longer talks to God. And so that is, it's an open ended sort of interpretation to ask what happened. But I think that helps us to consider what what fractured in this episode between Abraham and God. And then from the Christian tradition, there is a connection to Jesus and this idea that God has given God's only son on behalf of humanity. And so that links this story to the Christian faith. Thank you. And Rabbi Safran. Sure. So this story is, it's a very important story in Jewish tradition. We read this story every year on the holiday of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. And there have been so many commentaries over the generations. As I mentioned before, just Jewish tradition does this in general, but particularly with this story, the our ancient rabbis and sages and scholars really tore this story apart. And there are so many different interpretations too many to go into here. I would say that some of them do kind of offer different explanations for what happened. Some say that the angels intervened and melted Abraham's knife, and he didn't have it anymore. Some say that that because Abraham was silent in this story. Later on, he said to God, well, because I was silent for this, you need to help out my future generations and please protect them and argue for them in a way that, you know, I kept silent for you. So now you kind of owe me. So that's, Reverend, you're talking about, right? Talking back to God. So, but for me, I have to admit that it's, I struggle with this story. And it's hard for me to find meaning in it, unless I look at it as though Abraham was testing God. And that's kind of my interpretation of it. And there have been a couple of modern commentators who have also written a little bit about this. But the way that I can understand it is that for Abraham, what kind of God would ask someone to do something like this? God must not mean it. So maybe God wasn't thinking straight. Maybe God went a little bit too far. And we know that Abraham is good at kind of keeping God in check. And so maybe this was, you know, Abraham thought to himself, well, okay, I'm going to see if God really, really means this. And I don't think that Abraham ever intended to sacrifice his son, but wanted to see how far he would get before God or the angels or whomever intervened. And that's kind of, that's a way that I can read this story and still have it have value because also in Jewish tradition, I think it's very much a part of our tradition to challenge God and grapple with God and argue with God. And so I think it's okay to say that maybe sometimes we test God just like God tests us. That's beautiful. Thank you for both the traditional and then your personal interpretation, all of you. Thank you. For the sake of time, we're going to go right into the paintings. And so Greg, yes, thank you. So Greg has become an expert at our virtual gallery. So he's going to take us to our three paintings of sacrificial love. While he's getting us there, the first painting that we're going to start with is from the Christian tradition from the Christian artist, Kai Alcindy. And we're going to look at this interpretation of the story. And we're going to start with each painting that we go to, we're going to start with that faith leader who represents that artist tradition. So Reverend Yang, start us out with answering the question. Share how you see each of these paintings and what and how each artist conveys the idea of sacrificial love. How does this speak that message of sacrificial love to you? Sure. So with this painting, I will share sitting and dwelling and look on this. First, I'm very nearsighted. So if you're here, firstly, you can see how thick my glasses are, which is helpful in this case, because the artist here paints in blocks of color. And if you sort of blur your vision, it's almost like a Rothko Barnett Newman mashed together. And when you see it, then it becomes a very vertical painting too. It draws your eyes up and down. And so just looking at it, briefly, you're entered into this relationship, this question of how do we relate to God. And then if you just kind of look at the colors on the computer screen, at least, which is how we're interacting with it now, I notice the brightness of Abraham's beard. And that's the color that really pops out in this painting. And when I look at the white, long beard, it reminds us of Abraham's age. And all that he's lived and all that he's experienced, but also reminds us of how long he waited for the birth of his child. And the promise that he would have a child and just waiting and waiting and wondering if it would happen. And finally, Sarah and Abraham received their child. And then to be asked this impossible command. And so I think those colors just kind of come out. But then this moment is also really ambiguous that the artist chose to paint this moment. When in the story does this occur? And I think that the artist didn't share in the description is this before placing the child on the altar or after. And then when you look at this, there's a question. The artist did share that he couldn't paint Abraham's eyes. He didn't know how to do that. And so that's why the screen is not cut off. It was intentional to not know how to paint that expression. Yet the child's eyes are there. And looking at this painting, you have to ask is the child alive? And when you begin to look at it more than what I noticed is this is in many ways, this is a pieta painting. So if you can remember, Michael Angel is probably the most famous. There's a sculpture in St. Peter's Church where Mary the mother of Jesus is holding Jesus's dead body. And this same pose, it's almost, you can see that same pose. And so that sort of connects this with a tradition in Western art of the pieta, but also weaves that thread together with how this story reflects God's relationship with Jesus and to us. And I appreciate in the artist's comments that he paints the palm tree in the corner. And that's sort of a symbol of the promise, but that palm tree is far overshadowed by Abraham's act of obedience. And I think this moment is, it's a good, I don't know, because that's right, it's a profound painting because it forces us with the ambiguity, not knowing when this happens, seeing the connection, but also asking who would receive such a sacrifice. I mean, what is drawn here is the moment when Abraham is offering his child as a sacrifice. And we are forced to confront who would receive such a sacrifice and to turn it upon ourselves and consider our theology and our faith. That is beautiful, beautiful. Rabbi and Dr. Azimuddin, do you have any comments to that? I'm also struck with the luminance of the beard. I guess white or the pure color here being you know, purity depicting that and the child in his arms. So it would be impressive. Rabbi? Yeah, I would just add that a sort of an interesting fact, which is that some of our Jewish writings talk about how Isaac was not a child, but rather that he was 37 years old when this happened, based on some of the math about when he was born and when Sarah died and when this happened. And so it's just, it changes your perception and understanding of the story when you think about a grown man of 37 versus a child. And clearly here is a depiction of a child, but there is that thread of understanding and Jewish tradition that perhaps he was actually older. So just something to think about. Yeah, absolutely. That definitely changes the dynamics of this story. I hope we touch on that a little more. Greg, let's move to the next painting. The next painting is by Jewish artist Shay Azulay. And we'll let Rabbi Saffron start us on this one. Okay. I wished that he had written more about his thoughts about this painting and I would love to join your program. I think you said that you're going to be speaking with the artists at some point, right? Because I would be really curious, you know, when I first looked at this, it was really hard to make a connection between the story of this sacrifice that we've been looking at and this painting. But I spent some time, you know, really trying to kind of notice things. And so one of the things that the artist talked about was this circle of people and that in Jewish tradition, circle dancing is a custom that often brings people together. And you can see from the people who are a part of this circle that it looks like a diverse group of people, lots of colors in their clothing and their bodies. And circles also in Jewish tradition, they do represent a sort of healing. We read how in the book of Joshua, they circled the walls of Jericho seven times before the walls came down. And that's one of the reasons why at a Jewish wedding, sometimes the bride will circle the groom seven times or in more modern weddings, the bride and groom circle each other. But again, to break down, to symbolize the breaking down of walls and the breaking down of barriers. And so when I look at this, and I look at this circle that to me represents kind of a circle of unity and maybe healing. And Abraham is not a part of that circle. Abraham is outside of it. And he's standing back or sitting back on this magical carpet and looking down, looking over this circle. And it was mentioned before that after this incident of the sacrifice or the near sacrifice, that Abraham was silent, that Abraham then does not speak to God again after that. And we don't hear much about him. I think because he's really traumatized by this event. And he's dealing with some major PTSD after this happened. And what does he do? What do we hear that he does? Well, the one thing that we do hear about is that he goes and he sends someone to find a wife for Isaac. That's one of the last things that we hear about him doing before he dies. And so to me, that maybe indicates that he was trying to repair his relationship with Isaac and restore that relationship. And so perhaps in that way, similarly here in this painting, he is overseeing the healing of others and trying to tend to the healing of others, even though maybe he couldn't heal himself. But he's trying to bring others in and create a circle of healing. And so that's what I see. And maybe the sacrificial love for him is really just about giving, trying to give love to others. Again, even though he found a wife for Isaac, maybe he couldn't repair his, Isaac was too traumatized and he couldn't repair that relationship. But maybe here, maybe the artist is hoping that he found a way to kind of bring healing to other people. And of course, we know that as we consider him a patriarch in Jewish tradition, one of the founders, be the first person to become a part of the Jewish people. And so I think in this way that represents his, his starting being a founder of the Jewish people and overseeing maybe others healing if he couldn't heal himself. Thank you. Dr. Azimuddin, did you have an interpretation of this or how did it strike you? I'm very much attracted to this picture is here is a group of people forming a harmonious circle. Everyone is included. And you can see there are people diverse group of people. This is a diverse group of people. So the circle is all inclusive. And there is Abraham, who's floating on a carpet, bringing a sense of peace, calm and serenity to the group of people. Also, I would like to point out that in this picture, Abraham, who is he's depicted in an abstract form, which is more like the Islamic tradition of not depicting the prophets. So I think that is important here that I kind of relate to this picture that Abraham is not shown with his full form, but rather in an abstract form. So I love this picture. Thank you. Reverend Yang. I'm just learning and listening. I think it's interesting to see the negative space. So our eyes, at least my eyes are drawn to the space in the middle of the circle. And then to think about that Isaac is not portrayed in this. And so feeling we naturally fill that negative space or think about that and make that connection. And I like what Rabbi Safran said, I'd be curious what the artist would share about the thinking and the decisions made. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you too, Reverend Yang, can come and join us with the artists and find out, have all your answers. Well, thank you very much. This is a very interesting interpretation of the story of Abraham. And now let us go to our last artist, which is Sanan Hussein, our Muslim artist. And we're going to start with Dr. Azimuddin. And there is a lot of very rich symbolism in this painting. So I look forward to how it strikes you. Dr. Azimuddin? Yes, it's a beautiful picture. And I would start off with the same thread that in our tradition in Islam, we like not to portray figurative images of our revered personalities. Not that it has not been done, even in the middle ages and hundreds of years ago, there have been figurative portrayals of Muhammad, peace be upon him, and other revered people. But artists usually try to shun away from that. But here is a picture where Abraham depicts the, brings to us the scene of the sacrifice. Abraham is already looking up towards God. One hand, with a black glove, represented or symbolizing evil is holding Ishmael. And the other hand with the red glove, meaning bloodshed evil, with knife right there on the neck of Ishmael, it's ready to happen. And then there is a lot of other symbolism here. And you can see that God has replaced the sacrificial animal as a lamb or a ram who's right there. And yeah, then those heavenly figures are on top that you see. They are trying to console Abraham and Ishmael that, you know, okay, this is happening, be steadfast. And another thing that I really notice is that Ishmael is sitting cross-legged and not in a pose that he's trying to run away or escape from this torment. He's all obedient and, you know, given in to the will of God. So I think it is not just Abraham, but also Ishmael who are equally being obedient to God. You also see a cone there on which Ishmael is sitting and the cone, this artist, this particular artist, uses to depict a sacred moment. And of course, this is a moment that is as sacred as it can get. So in all, I think there is a beautiful rendition of sacrificial love in this painting, sacrifice for the great other, which is God. And then all others, which was the spirit of Abraham is to sacrifice one's self, one's need, one's stuff for somebody else. And that is what you know, the message is here is that we need to be willing to give up or sacrifice what we love most for the sake of others and the great other, which is who is born. Right. We have a question in the chat box about what are your feelings of the significance of the man with the horns? Man in the horns. Okay. So that's, you can take it many different ways. You see the man in the horns face is not visible. And he's actually trying to hold back Abraham's black hand, Ishmael. So he's kind of preventing Abraham from committing this act of sacrifice. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I mean, some would say that this is a good thing that he's trying to prevent bloodshed and prevent Abraham from sacrificing his, his only child. On the other hand, you might also say this, this is the Satan because he's trying to prevent Abraham from carrying out the will of God. So if God tells Abraham and Abraham is all willing and somebody's trying to get in between that, so I think that is, that is a very negative connotation here that this, this could be the devil himself. That is my understanding. Very good. Rabbi Saffron, what are your thoughts on this painting? It's quite different than the one from your artist. Yes, very different. I think it's a beautiful imagery, but I, I, and I love what was already said about it, but I really, I don't have too much to say about this one, still just kind of taking it in. Yes. And more comes out at you the longer you stand, like the clouds just kind of, it's almost like they're still in formation. Very much so. Reverend Yeh. They're parking there where the sunlight is coming through. So that's kind of the pure light of God coming through. Yes. Someone mentioned in the chat that it really just is focused shining directly on Ishmael. So that, that light of God is right there with him. Reverend Yeh, what are your thoughts? I appreciate this event because I'm thinking about how Rabbi Saffron brought up that in other stories Ishmael is a grown man and this is depicted here and it adds, it gives agency to Ishmael in the story, which in other stories is missing. I mean, how, that is such an interesting difference between the Christian rendition and the Muslim artist that, that what, what, what difference does that make that it's a grown man versus a small, a small child? Like what significance does that have? We, this, this particular, you know, this particular exhibit is about the ideas of peace, justice and healing. And maybe this is a good segue into that, that next question that we have for actually all three paintings. Greg, if you could kind of shift into so that we can see all three paintings, that how do these paintings inspire peace, justice and healing, especially with those two, one is perhaps a child and the other a grown man? What does this, how did these three speak to that? I'll go, Danny, you're on camera. Can I pick on you first? Sure. I think I would say that was a difficult question to dwell on. When I think about this story, I don't usually think about peace, justice. But I, looking at the Christian painting, he, the artist does not pull back from the tension of the story. I think he, he steps into it, presents it in, in many ways, the most uncomfortable way. And I think when we are confronted with troubles, we tend as humans to want to absorb that tension any way we can. And so we don't like living with tension or dissonance. And I think that invites us to reflect on why the story troubles us and to seek some resolution, some peace to find, how do we move to a place where at least we understand what is going on with our spirit, with our relationship with God, how this points us to a relationship with one another. So I think that kind of creates something and unsettles us and that, that movement can push us towards action. Very good. Rabbi Safran, how about this question for you? Your painting, your painting alludes a lot to this idea of peace, justice and healing. Yes, for sure. I mean, I think I touched on this a little bit earlier, but just in talking, in thinking about the trauma that Abraham and Isaac both went through in this story and then, you know, looking at this painting, although we've discussed how Isaac is not to our knowledge represented here, but perhaps Abraham trying to facilitate some sort of healing or unity or understanding among a diverse group of people, perhaps as a reaction to what he just went through, perhaps to help him come to terms with what he just went through. So, you know, I think that's one, for sure with this painting, I think there is very much here about unity and understanding. Speaking of understanding, it's interesting. There's also, there's another midrash, another story that the rabbis wrote about like a commentary on this story saying that the entire thing was a big misunderstanding and that God never asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. God only asked Abraham to bring Isaac up. There's kind of a play on this, on the word, the Hebrew word and that perhaps, you know, that was never the intention to begin with. So, you think just thinking about, you know, intentions and misunderstandings and trauma and post trauma, you know, there's lots of so many different ways to take this story, but certainly the painting, I think, could be Abraham's coming to terms with his own trauma by facilitating the healing of others. Absolutely, absolutely. And Dr. Azamuddin, how about your painting in regards to how it portrays peace, justice or healing? The peace part, I see that the figures in the sky, they are all uttering good words or comforting or soulless, words of soulless to Abraham and Ishmael trying to provide them some peace. It also shows that there is a ram that is being replaced and that shows the justice of God. God is not cruel. He is, you know, he is just and he would not want Abraham to really sacrifice his son. So he portrays, he brings the ram instead of the son. And I actually would just allude also that I saw a question in the chat, what is the face on the ram's body? And the face of Ishmael. So if you look at it a little closely, right in the smack center, there is a face there and off there on the ram. And that is the artist is portraying Ishmael here. Yes, right there. So Ishmael is being replaced by the ram. Basically, in this entire picture, what comes out is the whole story, the story of sacrifice. A willingness to sacrifice your most loved position is the key to creating cultures of peace, harmony and justice. And I think that is the whole essence of this entire story that is being broadcast here that you must be able to sacrifice deeply for what you love most and give up your own stuff for others. And that would really bring peace and justice to the world. I want to give each of you a chance to each comment on your own painting, but I just wanted to make sure that you all had an opportunity if there was something you'd like to say about peace, love and justice that came across in paintings from the other artists that you didn't comment on. Do you, do each of you see anything in the other artists that perhaps might speak to you more than maybe the artist of your own tradition? I think the painting from the Jewish artist once again, you know, it really such a harmonious, peaceful circle, people are coming together. You know, this is the painting from Shia Zoli. It just looks very serene to me. It strikes a chord with me. Absolutely. Well, Rabbi or Reverend Yang, did you have anything more you wanted to add? We can go on to the next question if not. All right. Well, so the next question and Greg, we can go ahead and keep the paintings, paintings up. I wanted to ask you about this difference between religious and secular art. And how do you think that paintings such as those that we're looking at that are rooted in a biblical story? How does that affect us differently? A religious, religious art versus secular art? And Dr. Azimuddin, I have you on the screen so I can go with you first. Okay. You know, my interest is Islamic art, which is obviously religious art. And, you know, of course, I'm no authority on different types of arts or say, or even secular art. But of course, you know, it strikes a chord in me. It's a continuous circle journey in the same medium. Basically, I love, I may digress a little, but I tell you that for me, Islamic arts, which is what I love and what I do is all about fiction of peace, tranquility and beauty. It is reflective of the of a better word. You maybe you take calligraphy, maybe you take, you know, arabesque, all these are deeply rooted in the oneness of God. And even on superficially, it may not seem like it is religious to you like a arabesque pattern, or a geometric pattern, it may not seem religious to you. But there is a deep underneath a deep meaning behind this. For example, arabesque means that or geometric art means it's a never unending, undivided continuum or infinity event, which is the oneness of God. So I think, in that sense, every art that I see, I'm trying to find an area where I can find a religious demonstration in it. So that's my advice. Reverend Yang. I think this was a, it was a interesting question for me. So I'll share, originally when we were planning this, one of the questions was share a piece of art that is meaningful and significant to you. And what came to my mind was actually the Rothko Chapel in Houston. And I love that space. But if you know a little bit of our ethical history, he's an atheist. He drew a spiritual sacred space without reference to any religious story. But I think art that is sacred reminds us that there's more than just our corporal sense, like we are more than just meat. I want to say that. And when we're mining, we're more than just, you know, trying to pass on our genetics or anything like that. Then we ask how are we connected together? What is the bond that that is beyond just our bodily cells? And that's what our cans do. For me. And then if it is religious, if it has a reference to religious story, then that begins to answer the question by tying us into a grander narrative, something that God's spirit is moving through the world and how we are latched into that story. And so that's where religious art can add a layer beyond what secular art can do. Absolutely. Thank you. And Rabbi Safran. Yeah, so I very much agree with with what's been said. I think that art itself is is an expression. It's an expression of self, it's an expression of the artist, and it's an expression of the artist's understanding of the world. And religious art, then I think can also kind of help us look at the world and understand something greater than ourselves. And, and to me, just as in Jewish tradition, we have so many commentaries and commentaries on the commentaries, and, you know, like just it's endless. To me, painting, paintings and art is just another form of text. It's a way that we understand our tradition, a way that we interpret our tradition, and a way that we find meaning in our tradition. And so I think that, you know, religious art specifically, I mean, religion, I think all religions at the end of the day are trying to find a way to understand the world and make it better and make us our best selves. I think ideally that's what religion is. And and so I, you know, I think religious art is an extension of that. Thank you very much. Do we have any, I don't see any questions from the audience. Greg, did I miss any? Sorry, when I'm sharing, it takes me a second to find my mute button. No, but a lot, I think the significant of the horns, the light of God, the meaning on the face, the sight of the ram. Interesting. Again, a lot of comments, particularly towards the piece by Hussein, it's, it's got the most going on as many people's right, you know, recognized with, I think someone to use the word chaotic. And I would think that this would have been quite a chaotic event as well. So, but yeah, there was, there's definitely a lot going on within, within this painting. And that's where most of the commentary is. It's not to discount. Again, I think the more subtle nature of these two, but they're deeply rich and just takes a different kind of eye, or to kind of attune your eye in a slightly different way, I think to see what's in here, which is I think another important skill that I think visual arts teach is attuning the eye in different ways to see and to pay attention to what you're not seeing as well. I think Danny's comment on the use of negative space, and I put a comment about my favorite, if you ever see the FedEx truck go by, look for the arrow made by the negative space in the center of the logo. Thank you very much. Yes. And I encourage everybody to stay on if you can and look at the full exhibit and you'll see just this thread between each of our artists and the five themes that the curator has put together for us. I will go ahead and this closes our episode, our event for now, but I just want to thank all of our participants here and wanted you to know that we are just so happy that you're here. And I'm going to let Greg go ahead and take us on into our next showing. So yes. I would just again say thank you for coming. Just a special thanks as well to our three, you know, faith representatives for their time. So if you'll join me in a round of thanks. And we will just as also a continued reminder again, thank you to all of our sponsors to all of our donors who have made this exhibit possible. And sorry. And that's there's a plenty of opportunities to see other to see this this exhibit in a variety of other ways, including our faith in our city coming up in in May, which will focus on the Islam on the Muslim tradition. And Dr. Azimuddin and a representative from the Islamic Art Society will be joining us to talk a little bit more about art in the Muslim tradition. We have our Gershenson lecture where I will be the lecturer on that will close the event on May 20. We have our dinner dialogue coming up on May 13, which will be very I'm really excited about, because we'll have representatives from the Hindu and the Buddhist traditions to talk about art in those cases, and you'll have more time to break into virtual into breakout rooms to to talk with one another. But please visit imgh.org, click the events button in the upper right hand corner and sign up to your heart's content. So I'll leave it there. Do you have anything else, Kim, before I turn us around and begin the tour of the whole of the whole exhibit? No, I just want to again, thank you to our panelists, Reverend Yang, Rabbi Safran, and Dr. Azimuddin. And just thank you for your time and energy that you gave to prepare for this event. Our community is stronger because of the strength of shared beliefs and people like you who dedicate your time to events such as this. And Greg, thank you for being my backup and tech support. And of course, to our vice president, Jody Bernstein, for just supporting our efforts and these events that are part of our Abraham exhibit out of one many.