 Welcome, everyone. This is 12th of December 2022. This is the Jenkins Governance Board meeting. Thanks for attending today's items that I have on the agenda include news, action items, elections, Governance Board meeting time and date, CDF outreach reboot. I have topics I don't expect Oleg to attend today. So I'm hesitant to have Oleg's here. Great. So CDF topics and community forum. Any other topics that should be on the agenda today. Yeah, I sent one update to the government board, but it's of the record. So I definitely don't contribute to the agenda today. Okay, sorry that I have to miss another meeting, but hopefully next time I will join for real. No problem Oleg so are you okay if we drop the CDF topics item from the agenda for today. For today it's perfectly fine. There are no big updates right now. So one thing that Jenkins project is still invited to present at the QC meeting. But yeah, I will circle back once we have to everything. And yeah, what's important and what's public that steps down from the QC chair position. So it's just a quick update. Yeah, it's rather due to personal reasons plus due to different expectations for what this position constitutes. But I will remain on the to see this. So regarding that you see representation nothing changes. Okay great and you'll continue then to represent the Jenkins project. Well, to some extent and you mark you also participate in this meeting quite regularly. You don't see any practical difference between you and me in this regards. And you are definitely much more involved in Jenkins so that me in the moment. Okay, great. Thank you. So like any other topics that need to go on the agenda today before we start the before we start working through the agenda. Okay, then let's then let's go ahead. So first item was the news 2.375 was released two weeks ago. It looks good positive feedback from lots of places. There's some, some active discussion about. About breadcrumbs bread crumb, and that discussion is happening in the context of weekly but I think it will be a likely candidate for a backport into 2.375 that too in early, in early January, January 2023 and I forget which day it is I think it's 11 any comments on those items. And then is our action items so first action item. Alex had the action item to assess if we've got active members in as leaders of the as managers or owners of all project SIG and community mailing lists. Alex anything you want to report there. Yeah, I based I didn't add all of the information there. Basically, I was looking for a mailing list on the Jenkins IO website, until I stumbled over the hardware and EDA SIG mailing list. Without it has been banned by Google because someone posted malicious content and it has been basically unmoderated for a longer time. And then I took a quick glance over the other mailing lists, most likely language mailing lists or platform SIG or any other mailing lists that are not frequently used. They are all full of content that I would consider malicious scam and typical stuff you have in your mails that directly went to the bin. But these mailing lists, given that they are public, you have the opportunity to report them to Google. And if a mailing list owner or manager does not respond within a few weeks, I don't know. I don't have the right to get rid of the mailing list, at least for public view. And I don't think this is a great thing for the Jenkins project to have banned mailing lists or anything like that. So I came up with a proposal that mailing lists related to six or two officers are owned or at least managed by those people. So we have someone in charge who can possibly remove or moderate bad content, rather than having a publicly accessible. So is that, what do you see as the next steps then a list of lists that says these lists should be deleted or erased or what do you see is happening next. Yeah, and for example, the Jenkins user mailing list or the developer mailing lists are moderated by a few people, but there are like the EDA mailing lists. And the language mailing lists are owned by very few people and not necessarily related to the project much anymore. For example, the Chinese language, the Chinese mailing list is owned by Rick. Yeah, and not like, and not by people who are actually much related to officers and such things. My proposal was, I would like to reach out for them and ask them, at least the managers or owners, if they could add the acting officer, or at least an acting member was related to the sick. For example, for the platform sick and no Bruno is very involved in that one. So we could at least add him there, or people like that. And if at least a chance to act if bad things are posted or possibly change the posting rules, have like preview them similar for the deaf mailing list. Good. Okay. And adjusting the posting rules to require moderation, at least moderation on first post seems really good to me. I will also see who owns the hardware and EDA mailing list and possibly see if they can remove the harmful content or whatever Google flags as harmful, and see if we can get this list unbanned, even if it's not much use these days. But that doesn't mean it should be banned, at least in my opinion. So, and I would have no problem with that list being deleted and that's just deleting references to it, because it has been inactive for a very long time. So, we're right so either. Go ahead. Wouldn't that be a better approach to say, why do we need still mailing lists so we have our community, we have our get a channel so we don't need any mailing lists anymore. This is an old concept and we have one for the user interface design group, but actually we are not using it so maybe it's easier to delete them and use some modern concepts. I think archive is probably healthier than delete, but yeah, we've got an action already that that Kevin actually is carried on as has taken from me to archive the doxic mailing list and switch to using community so I think that feels like a good a sensible approach. Alex would that work for you okay. First I will need to see who actually owns these mailing lists, but at a quick glance cost okay or Oleg and I think Oliver owns the majority of them. So basically people we can easily reach out to. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Thanks very much. Anything else on on that topic so the next step next steps then Alex are continue those requests to them and ask that they grant someone from the grant an active maintainer permissions to the list list owners. And then we archive them. I mean, first of all, I would like to get rid of the harmful content and potential everything that is considered as off topic. And then we can like restrict content posting and say put a topic then say hey, we now use community to Jenkins and I owe anything else depending which topic the list is about. Good okay so require approval on first post, then archive them and use make sense. Okay. Did I capture it well enough there Alex. Yeah, sounds good to me. Okay, anything else on the mailing list topic. Next topic then whoops next topic the election nominee and voter badges so Alex this is when you had noted as well. Yeah, understand the badges I apologize that I'm not sure what that that is is that a that's a concept on community that Jenkins that I owe. Yeah I think that was brought up by Gavin last year at least I think it was him maybe someone else, if then apologizes. Now on discourse you can add badges to profiles, similar to the first post batch or the first mentioned batch. And I think the idea from last year was that we had everyone who is in the election 2021 group a badge that says hey thanks for voting. We had form of appreciation for everyone who to pardon the last year election, but I noticed that we didn't have those better so yeah I would go ahead and apply them retroactively. If you want to do that still. I, I'm open to open the discussion. I'm not terribly worried about it but it would mean we would need to have somebody who has permission to create a new badge. I think I've probably got. I mark thinks he has permission to create those badges, but if not I can certainly I could work with Gavin to make it so if, if that would be something that others think would be a helpful comments from others really any any opinion from you Yeah, I'm just thinking about it that would mean that everybody who takes part of an election will be here flagged in our community. I'm not sure if this is everybody wants. So you normally election is some kind of hidden who's participating, and now it's not hidden anymore. So I'm not sure if for me it is okay to see it but I'm not sure if it's everybody is feeling a good with when his name is marked as I was part of the tank in selection, but yeah. Maybe it's an honor and honor to be there, but I'm not sure if it's for everybody a good thing so My opinion is that if you're elected you should get a badge, but if you were merely a voter or a nominee that seems unnecessary. I can't see a strong reason for that. That would be my opinion as well so if someone is getting voted that is a good thing. It's a good thing which helps people. But if to be a voter is, yeah, I'm not sure. It's not so relevant. And it's a lot of effort to look at 2021 to see if these people are still active so I don't know. So the idea of assigning a badge to officers and board members that's a that's a group of less than 10. So it's that's a manageable size it's also a noteworthy thing. Alex with that that meet your, your question your concern. If we, if we said yes let's go ahead with badges that's just to it for officers and board members that way on their profile, they can see oh yes, this person is an officer or a board member. Sounds great to me. Okay. My fingers. I've now done something to my page just a moment. Here we go. Okay. All right, so how about mark to create or create the badge, or discuss with Gavin, or request permission from Gavin. Now, Badge creation is distinct from board member create permission on community.jankins.io right I believe every board member should have permission Alex you have permissions. You're are you noted currently as a board member there and have the correct permissions. Yeah. Okay, good. It's a government board member under those people. Yep. Okay. On, sorry, I don't see it on my page I have a lot of patches but I have a leader patch I don't know what this is. Okay, so, so let's, let's put it in additional item that mark to check that all board members are correctly noted on community.jankins.io. Okay, as members of the board. That's a good thing. Yeah. Any other items there on the election badges so in this case it would just be for 2022. All right, next topic then mark weight create an empty agenda entry. This week's works quite well for me I'll do it again. I was that works very very well proposal right now is that the next meeting of the board won't be two weeks from now but it would rather be four weeks from now, because the next one two weeks from now will be the 26 of December and many of us will be out of office between Christmas Day and New Year's Day. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, great. The next was the action had to submit a Jenkins that I will pull request to combine sub projects and six haven't started that one yet, but I will. That one is I like that a lot the concept will be working groups, and it'll be a structuring to have a single unified way of presenting those rather than the two distinct but strangely similar concepts of sub projects and special interest groups. So it was Oleg to propose to Rick to retire the Chinese Jenkins site, no report from Oleg there. Next topic then archive the governance meeting notes. Gavin and I have this action item, not started yet. We do continue to publish the agenda after the meeting on community Jenkins that I owe. I think it would help us to have this. Now there is an open question from the info team. I'm asking, where do we want that. Do we want that GitHub repository that repository, whether on info or on the Jenkins CI org, and mark to include board members in that discussion. I'm not prepared today to have a more detailed discussion of it. Daniel Beck has some concerns about which repository it's in Damien had some opinions. I don't think it would happen to any of them. I think we would benefit from a GitHub repository. I don't care which org it's in doesn't really matter where it is for me. Okay. All right, so I think I think before discussing it it would be good to have a list of arguments for each position. And that thread but I think I saw some arguments in favor of one or the other that seemed valid to me but a separate conversation I noticed in that thread was the more general conversation about what belongs in the Jenkins organization. And that seemed like an interesting conversation to have but also separate one compared to the question of, where do we want this particular repository to go. So, I think there's really two different topics here one is, how do we define the scope of Jenkins info more generally, which is always a difficult question right it's always difficult to draw the line between ops and dev in any organization. But we could, we could spend, you know days discussing that either in the Jenkins project or in any other organization, but I don't think we should get sidetracked with that discussion with regard to this particular repository. But that's a much easier question to answer is where does this board repository go a much harder question to answer is, where do you draw the line between dev and ops and so I think we should focus on the first question and not necessarily the second question which is just very difficult to answer. Agreed, I like that so we'll focus. Let's focus that discussion on on specifically which of those two organization repositories we want. There are there. Yeah, let's leave it at that there's there's even a Jenkins dash docs org, but I'd rather we keep it in Jenkins info Jenkins CI one of those two. Good. Okay. So that one I think the action item stays with me to bring the board members in we'll discuss it in that thread in the GitHub repository and are in the GitHub. So it was an issue that's been opened and then we'll see go from there. Okay. Next, anything else on the archive of the meeting notes. Okay, next was Kevin to use community.io community Jenkins.io or the Jenkins docs signaling list so this was Kevin, taking an action item from from me. Kevin, how are you doing on it you want some help there. I'm very interested in getting that switched over and utilizing community site instead. And I think especially with the idea of getting moving away from the mailing list, having that as kind of a witness test will be really really helpful and understanding what possibilities we have there so I just need to go over it a little bit more maybe get a better sense of what the crucial items from your but we can do that in our own one on one separately but um yeah that's something I definitely want to make sure that I'm taking care of within the next month or so because I think you're off right that's officer. Great. Thank you. Next topic then was easy CLA to be documented by Oleg. Oleg's had was dropped in with this briefly he'll have to take some he's taking some time off at the moment. We'll look forward to him addressing that as we get into the new year. And last item, special thanks to Basel, the web application server policy. He created the proposed the pull request it's been reviewed merged and here it is with three levels stating the current, the current pattern where level one is we run automated tests and we really fix things promptly. In a timely manner, that's Winston level to will consider patches for certain specific containers that are based on serve that API 4.0, and then level three unsupported is things outside of that. Basel anything you wanted to highlight here. I don't know. If there's, if there's any other requests that we get for additional servlet containers begun Tom cat or wild fly. The response that we'd want to give is to add them to this page, and also to add them to the test suite and the packaging repository. I haven't heard any requests from people about others, but that would be the response, for example, I don't know if glassfish is still something that people use or not, but if it is that's that's the way we would deal with it. Thank you. Yeah, so good. Good to know that if someone wants to add to level to add documentation and a one or more test cases one or more tests in the packaging repository. Thanks for crafting those creating those tests so those those tests if I understand correctly are based on molecule and use Docker containers to do full installs. They're, they're not exhaustive they're basically just checking that it can boot up to the login screen, which is not a very thorough test I mean we're not actually building a job or doing anything like that. But it's basically the lowest level of testing that we could say. We could say that at least could work if it gets the login screen. So, right, very good. Thank you. Anything else on the web application server policy. Okay next topic then was on elections so two weeks ago we discussed a proposed change of rules to allow up to two elected board members from a single company. And that's being discussed in the Google group discussions have gone kind of quiet really any any additional concerns from you or things that you wanted to bring to this meeting. Actually, everything I think can could think about it. I wrote in the mailing thread. And the interesting thing is that really nobody part at this discussion from the community or from the developers. Yeah, this indicates that our community is getting smaller and smaller. And, yeah, quite interesting that nobody responded from others, which are not on the board right now. When you say nobody are you counting the reply that I wrote two hours after you sent your message. Yeah, but you were in the meeting as well. So, so I thought as I think everybody who was part of the meeting two weeks ago wrote something, but nobody else so this was a little bit disappointing from my perspective so I would have been better I think if we had a real discussion so we are still the same people talking about this thing. But yeah, I would say that would sign if nobody is against it so so saying nothing means maybe yeah I'm fine with changing it but I'm not really sure. I would agree that it would be good to get more voices but you know that that doesn't really change the points that were made, and the arguments in favor against if fewer people are discussing the topic. But the arguments are still valid I would, I wouldn't consider that a problem. Yeah, I'm not sure how we can proceed if we should wait a little bit more, because it currently it's not really relevant because the next elections are in one year, at least the official ones. And so I'm not sure if we should give it a little bit longer. Yeah, I would. So as a proposal I think if we were to say at our next board meeting and I'd be happy to post this to the discussion at our next board meeting early January. We plan to bring this to a conclusion to decide yay or nay. Okay, that way people know when we're going to make the decision. And I think it's within the board's ultimate authority to make this decision after it's been discussed and develop in the developer list. Yeah, what does that seem okay to you Lee your comments. It's fine. We conclude the discussion and vote on the proposal at next board meeting at January 2023 board meeting. Anyone object to that. Okay, great. Thanks. Anything else on elections before we go on to the next topic. Okay, next topic then was governance board meeting time and date. I was a little sluggish here. Five minutes before this meeting was scheduled to start. I sent the Google the doodle poll. It's a clickable link so you can go right here to see it. Well, maybe. Here we go. Yes, so we and we've got responses good so please respond thanks Basel for responding and encourage others to respond please. I've sent it I've posted it on the board meeting list. I've sent email directly to individuals. I'm hesitant to put it on the developer list just because that's a little broader than usual but I'm open to that if others feel strongly that we should pull for the whole developer list. Normally, there are not so many different people here so I think it's okay to keep the polls small. So we find a good. Yeah, it's a lot which fits to at least five of us. So it's getting harder I think if we have a lot of different people from different time zones. One to join they can or they can propose items without joining. So I think it's the best thing to keep it small. From my opinion here. Great. Let's go with that then thank you. Anything else on governance board meeting. Okay, CDF outreach reboot this is more for everyone's information. Two days from now, Alyssa Tong and I will be present at the meeting of the continuous delivery foundations outreach committee as they get it restarted. Alyssa I believe plans to present as the events officer, and we'll look forward to being involved with them more as we do more outreach and advocacy. CDF topics I believe has already been covered by what Oleg shared as he arrived earlier. Any other CDF topics that anyone wanted to bring. Okay then last topic was community forum. So this is a highlights section and one of the things that the one thing that was on my mind was this coming Sunday December 18. The Jenkins artifact repository will be down for up to six hours. And that's while art of while JFrog does a migration to upgrade that server to a different location and new version, etc. So what we'll do is we'll take the CI servers into prepare for shutdown so that their jobs stop running. And then Artifactory will be taken offline. You can read more about it on the Google group. If you want to start specific status at time of, at time of the outage go to status Jenkins.io and this, this thing announces that coming change. Any questions on that outage. Good point by Kevin. So should we do a blog post, or is there a blog post or there is a blog post Kevin I think is what you're telling me here. Sorry, Damien actually created that blog post and I published it towards the end of last week. So that's actually up and available on the Jenkins that I have blog as well. Excellent. Thank you. Okay, so we're, we're giving ourselves as many ways to to forewarn people that will be down this coming Sunday. We're very grateful to JFrog for what they do for the Jenkins project. Any other items from the community forum that people would like to share or highlight. Okay, any other topics that we need to cover in today's in today's meeting. One thing I think on the mailing list we are participating in first time next year. So maybe it's just good to say that we are, we have a stand there I think. I was not involved while I think Alyssa was in one of the creation process. So correct yeah so good good point advocacy and outreach is tracking that stand. There will be a CI slash CD dev room at FOSDM. Whereas last year I believe it was a full day. This time it will I believe be only a half day. And as far as I understand that the talks that are there were proposals for that the call for proposals has already closed. So, so we'll look forward to hearing from people in their experiences in that dev room. Okay. Now staffing for the stand. We'll coordinate that. I believe she and Bruno are coordinating it but Alyssa Tong is coordinating the, the staff if you're going to be at FOSDM by all means we'd love to have your help staffing the table. Thanks for the reminder. Any other. Maybe you can write the date it's I think the fourth and fifth of February. Thanks. Yes, we'll also we also plan to participate at the Southern California Linux Expo. That'll be 20 X and I think that's in March. So that'll be in Los Angeles, California. We've done that for many, many years and frequently we get Kosuke himself to come visit the booth. Those are topics for from the community forums. I think that covers our topics for today then thanks very much recording should be available on community dot Jenkins.io within about 24 hours.