 You're okay to torture the animals to eat a sandwich? To a degree, yes. Tell that to the poor mice that are being churned up when the carrots are harvested. Yeah, you've already made this hug. I think it's a false equivalence to drawing. I disagree. I think I've got you. You think you've got me? You know what? You always made me think that. I think you're overusing that word torture for effect. I guess it goes back to why is that bad? If we're okay with it. Why is suffering bad? You've told me you're against torture. Yeah, I am. So how much torture is that? Lovely to meet you. Nice to meet you too. What's your name? Dean. Dean, good to meet you, Dean. I guess, Joel, I would never argue with you in terms of nutrition or in terms of sustainability. Okay. Maybe even ethics. Are you not vegan? I'm not vegan. Okay, okay, cool. Do you want to sit down and talk to me? Yeah. Come on then. So you're not a vegan? I'm not a vegan. I'm a meat and dairy. You read the sign? Yes, I did the sign. So if you're not vegan you support animal abuse? Yeah. Do you agree or disagree with the sign? Yeah. Yeah, I guess I agree with the sign. I probably do support animal abuse, don't I? Yeah. Again, I wouldn't argue that point with you. I guess the question I've always wanted to ask you is, what would you say to someone like me who's just, at the end of the day, I'm just cool with killing an animal for food. I'm just down with that as a concept. You just don't have a problem. I'm just okay with it, yeah, yeah. So you personally don't have a moral issue with it. So your subjective morality, so let's say my morality, my morality, I have a problem with it. Your morality, you don't have a problem with it. Correct. Okay. I would say, let's unpack that because I want to see if you're consistent. That would be my answer to that. Because in my subject, I might have a subjective morality where I think it's okay to kill people with pink shirts on or with maroon shirts on, you know? Okay, that's probably extreme example. We wouldn't be able to have a civil society if we went around doing stuff like that, right? Yeah, but all I'm saying is that's my subjective, you know, it might be insane. You might think it's insane. You might think it's inconsistent and crazy, but that's my morality. So you're saying your morality is okay to kill animals, but we can talk about whether or not that is consistent and whether that is actually just as crazy to me just to go, we can kill this group of people with this colored shirt on. We can, or you're saying we can kill this group of beings because they're animals. I guess with your, it's not straw man, I guess, but your extreme example is, we just wouldn't be able to have a society like that. If you went around killing people in pink shirts, there wouldn't be a society of people. I get what you're saying. We wouldn't be able to cooperate. Yeah, so human beings wouldn't be able to live in a functioning society if we just killed people with pink shirts on. Correct, yeah. Okay, okay, saving that. So you just look at human beings as one group and every other species is another group. So it only matters if human beings are functioning. Not only, no, it's not black and white like that, but I'm not religious either, right? So I'm not gonna say there's intrinsic value in human life. I'm just saying we shouldn't be going around killing humans because you and I can both agree on that, right? Of course, of course I'm consistent. I don't think it's not okay to kill animals and not okay to kill animals. Like basically, I wanna know what animals you think it's okay to kill and eat. All of them? Essentially, yeah. Okay, so anyone, so basically, if they're not human? Yeah. So let's categorize this as a human, you know like a human species? Yes. So anyone outside the human species is okay to kill and eat? Yeah, I would say so, yeah. Okay, okay. So an elephant? No problem? In theory, okay. But in practice, in my subjective morality, in theory, yes. In practice, no. Because an elephant is a certain type of species, it might be threatened, it might, the meat's not very good, it might not be efficient. Oh yeah, I only care about the, I don't care about the pragmatic point and the practical point, I care more about principally. So let's talk about principle because we could make practical work with elephants, actually. We could breed them and, you know. Yeah, so, okay. So if the practicals bore out, in principle, in principle, yeah, okay. So what about gorillas? Yeah. Same thing, yeah. Yeah, so principally, you wouldn't have a problem with me shooting a gorilla in the head and eating them? In principle, no, I wouldn't. Okay, so in reality, we're in reality. There's a gorilla there, just chilling. They've got a couple of kids with them. I shoot them in the face, shoot their kids in the face, start cutting them open and eating them. And my justification to you is I felt like a gorilla sandwich. Do you know what, if you ate it, yeah. That's cool. Because you said you killed it, you could have been an etiquette. Yeah. Right, so you're taking on protein and you've had a meal in theory, yeah. Okay, interesting. So it's okay if I eat them and they're not human? Yeah. Okay, okay, that's cool. I think we just fundamentally disagree, don't we? I'm really, no, no, no, let's unpack it. This is really interesting what you're proposing right now because I really want to get to the bottom of this and this is a really interesting line of discussion, actually. You might not think it is, and we might just say, well, we just disagree, but we can really get into the depths of this. What if I torture the animals first? No, I'm not into the suffering. I'm not in it for the suffering. I don't like torturing. Let me ask you a question. Say there was zero suffering. We found a way to eat pork or chicken or whatever and there was zero suffering and it was somehow measurable and there was no suffering. You still wouldn't eat chicken on pork, right? Yeah. So we don't really need to talk about suffering, do you know what I mean? Because even if we eradicated it, you would still be vegan. No, we do need to talk about suffering because you know my position, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I want to find out your position because I want to know why you have a problem with me torturing a cow before I kill them if you don't have a problem with us eating the cow. Because it's unnecessary. I don't want you to torture a cow. No one wants that. So do you have a problem with being unnecessarily cruel to an animal? Correct, yeah, yeah. Okay. So then define necessary, I guess, yeah. So and killing him to eating is necessary? In my view, yeah. It's okay. I'm cool with it. Is it necessary? Is anything necessary? I mean... Yeah, that's a bit, it's a weird thing though because this phone wasn't necessary. We don't need electricity, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, is it justified? Yeah. It's justified too. If you're eating it, yeah. I would argue that it's not just unnecessary, it's cruel and unnecessary. That would be two different things. You know, those two things together, cruel and needless. Right, right. Yeah, needless. Necessary is a weird word and I get what you're saying, actually. So you're against me torturing a cow because it's... 100%, yeah. Why do you care about the cow? It's a sentient being that has feelings. Yeah, I get that. And why are sentient beings important? Like, you're sentient, I'm... Because that's everything, isn't it? Sentience is everything. That's what you feel, yeah. Yeah, that's what you feel and what you... What you perceive, yeah. Under this umbrella of sentience, it's like, you know, you're experiencing the world as well. Yeah. So that, and you're a subject as well. Yeah. Like, inside of you right now, there's a subject. Thinking about me, perceiving, judging, wanting desires, you're feeling if it's cold or hot and you're hungry is cold. Okay. But for me to come up behind you with no suffering and just go, bang, and shoot you, do you think that that's morally okay? No, because that's going back to humans, isn't it? So we wouldn't, no one would be here now if it was okay to just come up to kill people. Because you'd be worried about leaving your house, everyone could be like Mad Max, everyone could kill everyone. And what if that... There'd be no society. So even though a cow experience is very similar to us, you don't think killing a cow just like that is wrong because it takes away their sentience. You don't think it's wrong. I would have a problem with just like that. I would kill it for food. Yeah. So as long as you eat them. Yeah. But with human beings, you've got a problem because it would ruin society to do that. Listen, Joe, I think you and I can agree that we, you and I agree that we don't go around killing people. Wait a second. No, no, we can do this through the human lens. What if we take some humans, remove them from society. So we make it illegal to kill and eat humans in society. Because that's what you're saying. So we keep society fully functioning. We take these human beings and they're just like me and you fully functioning and we breed them in a factory farm like we do with animals. You're against suffering. You're against suffering. Let's take the suffering. They're not suffering, but they're existing. And we are doing it for the purpose of food. Is it okay to cut their heads off and eat them? It's a really weird hypothetical, that one, isn't it? No, because what I'm doing is I'm narrowing out your, like you have a few requirements in order to be okay with eating animals and it was, we can't go around killing other people because it ruins society. Right, so you've constructed a way where it won't ruin society. To see if you're consistent. Yeah, yeah. If society really is the justification, that's all. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've not heard that argument before and I guess I'd still be against it because just because they're still human at the end of the day and you have constructed an artificial way of removing them from society. Yeah, I'm saying if I were to do that, would you be... If you hadn't have done that. Do you know what I mean? You've made it sort of... I've created a hypothetical in order to see if your moral system is consistent. And right now I don't think it is. You don't think it is. Because you're still saying... I would still say don't kill them, yeah. I've removed your requirements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've created a scenario... I guess because you've done it, you've done it artificially, that they were people that were in society, right? No, no, no. We've taken two people from society, we've bred some babies, we've removed them and now we've got this fully... It's like essentially farming people. I get what you're driving at. Is it wrong to kill them? Yeah, I'd say yes. Okay, now we've... I think it's a weird hypothetical, though, Joey. Because you've got weird... Because you've got specific requirements for your moral system, I've had to isolate them out to create this type of people. So this is how I'm finding if your moral system is consistent or if it contradicts itself. So now, you're saying no, it's not okay to kill them, even though we've removed them from society, we've still got laws protecting people within society. It's wrong to kill them, even though they don't get cause-suffering, it's just wrong to rob them of their sentence, to murder them. Because they want to live, essentially. Is that why? Why is it wrong? It's wrong to kill people, I think we can agree that. Well, I need to know why it's wrong. You need to tell me, is there something about people? My argument is, there's a societal argument right there. Removed? Removed. But I think it still holds because you wouldn't say, ever, it's right to kill people. So we agree. No, no, no, I'm trying to find out why you think it's wrong to kill a person and not to kill an animal. Yeah. Because you're saying because we're human, but that just tells me something about DNA and about our species. That doesn't tell me why it's morally wrong to kill a person. You're just saying it's because we belong to this species. You're not saying it's because we value our existence and to rob someone's existence is wrong. A religious person will tell you that human life has intrinsic value. Oh, well, I would say that, too. I'd say that, too, as well. I'm not religious. Yeah, I'm not religious. But to me, that and the societal thing is enough to just say that we can't kill people. So why don't you... I think you're being a little bit... What's the word? You're creating these very, very weird and complex hypotheticals to make a point. It's very simple. Yeah, so... It's very simple. It's just removing your requirements. It makes your pet weaker, in a way, because you're constructing these. You're having to construct these. I'm taking someone out and breeding them and then killing them, is that all right? Well, no, it's all it is, is a consistency test. Right. It's just you've constructed your moral system, philosophically. You've said, I don't think it's bad to kill an animal because they're all different species. So I'm like, OK, so species in my head. What if we... And then you said, well, OK, can we come up and kill a human if it was for food? So you said, no, because it would ruin society. So I removed society. I've still kept. We're killing them humanely. We're doing it for food. We've removed them from society. So what I'm doing is this is for a very simple... No, yeah, I'm kind of with you. In a philosophical debate, you have to be able to entertain... In a sense, OK, maybe I will. But see, now we've come down to what... The reason that was so important is because we've realised that it's not the society thing. It's not because we're going to eat them. There's something intrinsic about humans. You feel it's morally wrong to kill them. Yeah, but I do think that. But I think that's quite hard. We need to know what that is. Yeah, it's quite hard to articulate and quite hard to prove. Not for me. Well, it's weird that we're arguing this point that we agree. You and I agree we shouldn't kill people. No, no, just because we can't articulate it. We're trying to find out what you feel is important about people and see... Maybe I don't know, or maybe you're probably more far out than me. I know, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the thing that makes a human's experience important and valuable and that we shouldn't rob that from them is the same thing that makes an animal's experience important and that is its sentience. And that is that their experience... Yeah, I've got to admit you are consistent. I 100% agree with you on that. Let me just tell you why I'm taking you down this road. We share common things with animals. And it's the things that matter that I'm worried about. Totally, yeah. I'm concerned about the fact that a cow, they're human beings that... Like a child, right? Small child, younger. Let's just say three. They're about the intellect of a cow. Four, you know? If someone killed a human child on this farm that I'm talking about, removed from society, you would think that was crazy, you know? We do it to cows all the time. They're like little children in their minds. Like pigs have got the... I think that they've got like the intelligence of a three-year-old child. You can't really compare us because we're different, but they're about, you know? There's someone in there that we're taking away their existence. Like I think that people should have a right to their sentience and no one should be able to dictate who robs their sentience from them. Like in the farm scenario, the human farm scenario I created, once they exist, they should have rights protecting their existence from them. You know what I mean? Yeah. And once an animal exists, we shouldn't be able to just decide that we want to kill them for a sandwich. I think it's a false equivalence, Joey. I really do. I think there's enough of a difference to justify killing the animal. What is that difference? I would ask. It goes back to, I'm just cool with it. I'm down with killing a cow for food. You haven't shown me what that difference is to justify it. You're right. It's like you've got to, in order to do something that like rob an animal of their sentience or kill them, you should be able, you should have to justify that. If I want to kill you, right, I can't just say I'm cool with killing you. No, that would be a psychopath. It's weird that we... Well, that's your justification for killing a cow. I don't want to argue this because we agree. No, we're not. We agree that you wouldn't kill people. No, but let's just say I did. And my justification was because I'm just cool with it. Oh, you get locked up. In a world where it's a hypothetical. So you think it's crazy, don't you? But so what should I think you're crazy for saying it's just cool to kill a cow? That's your justification? Maybe, yeah, maybe. Because think about the cow. The cow doesn't want to be killed. Cow doesn't want to be killed? No. One doesn't get it. Yeah. I don't agree with the equivalence. I think it's a false equivalence you're drawing. I disagree. I think I've got you. You think you've got me? I don't think... You always make me think. I don't think you can justify it. That's what I think it is. Definitely. OK, let me ask you a question. OK. No, no, you can go. You're going to kill me, honestly. OK. So you're saying how do I justify killing a cow for food? Yeah, because I think you shouldn't even care about the cow being tortured if you don't care about killing them. No, 100% care about it. I don't want the cow tortured. Because... I don't want the cow... Yeah, I know, but... I'm not in it for the suffering. So you care about the individual that's experiencing the torture. That's my point. It's... It's... There's no reason to torture a cow. Yeah, but I'm just... I know, there's no reason to kill and eat them either. I think it's OK. There's no justification. There's no justification. You can live healthily as a vegan, yeah. There's no justified reason to do it. You might have a reason to do it. OK, let's bring it back to what the questioner was going to ask you. And how do you justify... I hate to use this word because you're going to kill me, but crop deaths. You could go and... You could grow all your own carrots in your back garden and be really careful about picking them and stuff. But you don't. You go to Sainsbury's and buy them, and all the mice and hairs that churned up when they're harvested, right? So how do you justify killing the bugs when, to use your argument, it's not required because you could go and grow your carrots in your back garden. It's just too much of a hassle for you. It's too inconvenient. I would argue that asking people to grow their own food would cause, like, mass starvation and a huge human tragedy. Well, tell that to all the mice and hairs that have been churned up when the carrots are harvested. OK, what are you saying? OK, what are you saying? And I can justify it if you'd like me to. Go on. Yeah. There has to be a civilization. There has to be an amount of harm that's going to happen. Yep. OK? So my moral system is something called, like, threshold deontology. Yeah. So you and I, like, right matter, like our rights matter, animal rights matter, up to a certain threshold. Yeah. If you say to me, like, everyone should just grow their own carrots. Right? I don't have the facilities to grow my own carrots. Me asking you, if I was to say, OK, this is veganism, everyone go out and grow your own food. Right? And this has happened before and certain civilizations are like, I think it's Russia. Where was it? Is it China? Were there people who had to grow their own food? Yeah, everyone starved. Yeah. Yeah. So that's huge amounts of human suffering. Wow. Right? So when you talk about growing, cultivating crops, it's the reason we have civilization, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So before we cultivated crops, there was no civilization. Yeah. So you're saying, like, we should remove crop farming because I know that animals die in crops. No, I mean, I mean, we'll... You mentioned a threshold, right? So your threshold's here. My threshold's here. No, no, no. You don't meet the threshold. I mean, you and I don't like... Both of us don't like bullfighting. Right? Yeah, but you don't cause bullfighting. But I eat meat, but you don't eat... Yeah, but you're saying... All you're saying is it's a continuum and you're here and I'm here. You don't even meet no way near the threshold, like... No, there's a continuum. There's crop deaths and then there's... what happens to animals in the meat and dairy and egg industry. That's nowhere near the threshold. That's not even meeting me close. No, no. Sorry, what I'm saying is there's a continuum of where we are. Yeah, and you're on the opposite end of you. You're not meeting me. Okay, but you could be... You could be less. You could do less harm. Yeah, but I don't think... You could do less harm. I'm not convinced that it would do less harm. You say, how do you justify killing the cow, Dean? I said, Joey, well, how do you justify buying carrots and Sainsbury's? I can justify. I'm trying to. I'm trying to justify... You're just saying it's slightly better. No, it's not slightly better. It's incredibly amount... It's magnitude. Tell that to the poor mice that are being churned up when the carrots are harvested. Yeah, you've already made this argument. Let me just dissect this for you and let me finish so that you get a good grasp of this. So, crop deaths, yeah? Yeah, yeah. So the animals you eat eat crops? Yeah, yeah. A lot more than human beings? Yeah, yeah. So you're causing a bunch of... There'd be less... There's gonna be way less. I'm with you, I'm with you. Okay? So already about eating animals you're causing... Correct. Way more crop deaths and you eat plants as well. Yeah. But the animals you eat eat way more plants than you do. Yeah, crop deaths if I went vegan. Magnitude's less. Yeah. So 83% of the farmland on Earth that was the Joseph Poor study at Oxford University showed that 83% of the farmland is used for animal agriculture. Yeah. I mean dairy. And that includes animals grazing and crops being fed to them. Right, they harvest grass. They harvest... Listen, I think you're preaching to the converted here. Okay. I will concede that there'll be substantially less crop deaths. And not just crop deaths. So there's between... If I went vegan, right? Right. And there's not just crop deaths. There's something like 80 billion chickens that are slaughtered every year. Yeah. There's between one and three trillion marine animals that are slaughtered every year. Mm-hmm. 50% of the marine animals are farmed fish. They're fed fish too. Mm-hmm. Right? So 50% of the fish people eat are farmed fish. They're fed plants as well so that's more crop deaths. So then... And then you've got all the cows and the pigs and then you've got the pigs and the chickens in factory farms so they're incredible amounts of suffering which you're against. Mm-hmm. All the torture that happens in a massified torture, you told me. Most of the animals that you eat are tortured, guaranteed, or the hens, pigs that are gassed. So you're not just talking about crop deaths. You're talking about a huge mass murder of trillions of animals every year on top of the crop deaths, right? Yeah. And what I'm saying is people should eat plants and then you go how do the mice feel about that? Right? So what happens in a crop? A harvester comes, churns up the crop. Most of the mice run away. This has been studied. That is a... Yeah. Insects. Because it's been sort of... Yeah. You're not really actually showing that there's any more death being created. I don't need to show that, though. No. Yeah, you do. No, you asked me how do I justify killing a cow? Yeah. And I say, I can't really. I'm just cool with it. And how do I... And then I said how do you, the same way that you justify killing when you buy carrots from Sainsbury's? Yeah. But you're responsible for only a scale, isn't it, Jack? No, no, no, no, no. There's nowhere in it. Because I would say that getting rid of plant agriculture would be the end of civilization. Everyone would starve and die. So that's enough. I would never advocate for that in terms of veganism. Right. So that's what I'm talking about. You're saying it would cause... I could cause even less harm. I would argue that getting rid of plant agriculture would cause even more harm. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, of course I'm going to justify it because we can't have a functioning civilization without crop farm. Right. So that's why it's justified. Right. Walk around, not step on our ant. That's not what veganism is as far as it's possible and practicable. You know? It's not like cause no harm no matter what. It's not, hey, I'm not going to shoot you if you start mass killing everyone. And there's always justifications for what we do. I don't think slaughterhouses are justified. I guess it's the word practical, isn't it? Practicable. Practicable, sorry. Yeah, sorry. Able to be practiced. Yeah. We just draw the line at different points. Yeah? We agree on... You're drawing the line of mass murder of billions of animals on top of the crop desert harm civilization causes. Yeah. I'm drawing the line at civilization. Yeah. Being able to function. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a tough one. And you know humans also die on crops, on farms, on farm farms. Do you know that? Human beings. In accidents. Tractor accidents. Do you drive a car? I do. I drive a car. That's fine. Functioning civilization. Hard to operate without one. Some people don't drive cars. Yeah. I think without transport there's a sort of trade-off we make. Yeah, yeah. But also, do you know how many people die in car accidents? Yeah, loads, yeah, loads. Are you a murderer because you drive a car? No. Do you think it's justified to drive a car? Yes. What about the person who dies in a car accident? You're driving at high speeds? We're back to killing humans. Exactly. But we agree that that's bad. But you drive a car even though transport kills thousands and thousands of people every year. Yeah. I don't think you're a murderer. What I'm saying is, yes, plant farming kills every year. Yeah. So does transport. But I think those two things are justified for a functioning civilization. Right, I see what you're saying. Chucking these people in a slaughterhouse to murder them for burgers, I don't think it's justified. Chucking those animals, masquerading them and chucking them in slaughterhouses on top of the harm we cause. I don't think it's justified. So that's my threshold. Right, right, right. I personally still think it's just a continuum. Do you think I justified it? It's a continuum. Do you think I justified it? Yeah. Probably do, yeah. Yeah. But I can't get it out of my head, Joey, that I'm just OK with it. Do you know what I mean? I think you're OK with... I don't know if you're OK with it. I really don't know until I have an animal here that desperately doesn't want to die. Yeah. And I shoot them in the head and cut their head off in front of you and then say, do you feel like a burger still? Yeah. Or if like a cow nuzzles you and says I don't want to like they're your friend. I don't know if you have that type of callousness in your heart. Yeah. I think you might be so detached from this that you can say that. But... You're right. A lot more people be vegan if they had to kill their own animals. I don't feel bad about outsourcing it to someone less squeamish. So just because you're squeamish, you could be squeamish by bananas. Yeah. It doesn't mean that bananas are immoral. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But bananas aren't sentient or conscious like animals. So I would still... I would say to you that most of the animal products you're eating now torture happens. Hmm. And there's standard practice that is mutilations and torture. The most humane way to kill pigs in the UK is a gas chamber which causes an immense suffering in the atmosphere. Is it hydrogen they put in? CO2. So fizzy gas. So it burns you. So you're contributing to a bunch of torture anyway even if you created this in your worldview animals without suffering getting killed. That's not what happens in what you're eating. Yeah. So you're going back to suffering now. I mean, I don't think we need to talk about suffering because you say we eradicated it. You'd still be vegan. No, we do need to talk about the torture and the suffering of most of the animal products you eat. I'm not in it for the suffering. I would pay more if there was one chicken there and one chicken there and this one that was zero suffering and this one was hundred suffering I would pay more I'd pay double triple for the But you agree that the animal products you buy suffering happens to them? Yeah. The immense amounts of unjustified suffering so wouldn't you? Well, unjustified, yeah. Do you think suffering is justified for a seven? You have to define well, like suffering happens to you have to kill the animal. So I'm not in it for the suffering. I don't want there to be suffering. Yeah, I understand you're not in it, but you know a direct result of consuming animal products you're causing a bunch of stuff that you're against. Yeah, yeah. So why are you still doing that? Because it goes back to my fundamental belief that I think it's okay to kill an animal for food. No, no, you said it's okay to kill them. You didn't say it's okay to torture them. Not unnecessarily, no, it's not okay. So we're unnecessarily torturing animals for food to torture them. There's going to be some suffering because you have to kill the animal. No, no, bro, there's immense amounts of suffering in farming in the UK. Yeah. You can't avoid it. What industry what animal products do you eat? If you were out here, all of them, mate, yeah, all of them. There's suffering in all of them. If you were out here protesting cruelty, I'm going to support you anyway, I will support you. I am protesting cruelty as well as exploitation and killing. Right, I support that. Yeah, but you don't because you're you support, yeah, you support I would support your protest against cruelty. This sign here says when you're not vegan, you support animal abuse. Yeah, I kind of agree with that. You definitely do. I have to agree with that. Yeah. So how are you comfortable with supporting the torture that goes on in animal agriculture? I'm not massively comfortable with it. No. So do you think it's justified what you're doing? Yeah. But you're against torture, so how is it justified? I'm against torture, yeah. So by your own standards you should be, it should be unjustified what you're doing because you're against torture. But you're doing it. Listen, I'm against just someone sitting there and torturing a cow, yeah. No, well, let's just say they torture them. No, what they're doing is they're often mutilating them to dehorn them. Yeah. Yeah, so they dehorn them. Yeah. They take their calves away from them which causes them trauma. Yeah. They get mastitis and lameness in the dairy industry which is a form of torture. Yeah. In the pork industry 90% of the pigs are factory farm. They're in farrowing crates giving their piglets and they go crazy in there. The piglets are getting in their head smashed on the ground. Teeth clipped down, tail snipped off. Gas chambered, that's torture. In the egg industry, so in the egg industry they macerate the males, obviously. Yeah. They de-beak the animals. So if there was none of that stuff, Joe, if there was none of that. There is. If there wasn't you'd still be vegan. If we found a way, We're not talking about me. If we found a way tomorrow to just, there was a way to kill a pig without, with zero suffering and we could prove it, yeah? You would still not eat that pig. You would still be vegan. Of course. But that doesn't exist but you still support it. I'm against it. If you want me to donate, I don't want any money. I'm against, I'm against. It's like, it's like, if you're campaigning for better conditions in slaughterhouses I'll support that. But you're paying for the horrible stuff. So you're donating your money. So you would donate to stop the torture. I would support, I would support a campaign against, a campaign for better conditions in slaughterhouses. All the money that you you pay for animal products goes towards supporting torture for the animals. So even if we don't agree that it's wrong to kill an animal, even though I think that, I think that we got to the bottom of that already, the torture itself that happens right through animal agriculture. It's right. Like, you pick the industry. Yeah, but you're making this point when it's kind of moot because it's not really, if we eradicate it, you'll still be vegan. It's not about me. I'm talking about you now. I'm talking about you. If I could eradicate it like that, I would. No, why don't you eradicate your support for it? It goes back to my fundamental belief that I think it's okay. It's got nothing to do with your fundamental belief because this is about torture. You don't think torture's okay. You said that from the start. You said killing's okay. No, but you're using this word torture. Yeah, I'm saying it's torture. When I go and buy some bacon from the shop, right, that pig has been killed. Yeah. They've been tortured then killed. Well. More often than not, they're tortured while they're killed. Yeah. Because of gas chambers. So what I'm trying to say is you're isolating killing from torture, but they're both intrinsic parts of animal agriculture. I'm against any unnecessary suffering. You cause unnecessary suffering by consuming animal products in the UK. Yeah. And egregious amounts of it. Yeah, but you're saying unnecessary in what sense? Well, what did you mean by unnecessary? So for me to get the animal products that I want on my plate, that's necessary. You're okay to torture the animals to eat a sandwich? To a degree, yes. I'm okay for the animal to be killed. No, no, no. That's not what we're talking about. I've got your position on killing. I know your position on killing. Yeah, but you're saying if you can't kill it without torture. No, in the UK, if you're buying animal products, there's almost a hundred percent certainty they have been tortured in some way. Yeah. And I'm asking you... I think it's a bit... of a stretch to use the word torture. I think there's a process that they go through. What animal don't you think is tortured? Well, I mean, there's a reason they cut their ears off is because they bite each other's ears. They shouldn't have been confined in anyway. We shouldn't be breeding them to eat them anyway. So we cause the problem that we're trying to solve by torturing them. Well... We cause the problem and we torture them to solve it? Yeah. I mean... Come on. I'm against that. I would want to reduce that. Were you paid for it? I would support reducing that. No, you support... You donate more money into torturing animals than you do to helping them. Right. Yeah. Every single day, three times a day, you pay for the torture of animals. Yeah. So by... I think you're overusing that word torture for effect. Well, then get me with it. Get me with it. Try to debunk it. The farmer isn't interested in torture either, right? They're interested in turning a profit. Exactly. They're not psychos torturing animals for fun. Well, they're trying to process a product. They're trying to make a product. Yeah. And there's rules in the UK, the standards. Right, maybe you're not happy with them. What are the rules? I couldn't tell you no more than me. Yeah. So... Say if you came to me and said, there's a campaign where I'm trying to improve the conditions. I would support that. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you would, but there's always campaigns about improving conditions, but what does that mean? What's an improvement? Yeah. I mean... What's an improvement? You can always improve it. Slightly less torture? Yeah. But still torture, but slightly less? Oh. As I said, I think torture is deliberately inflicting pain on someone for a reason, for the reason being pain. Right, that's what torture is. No, no, no. Just creating a chicken into existence the way they are, their very lives are torture. Yeah. Because they're Frankenstein chickens. Because they grow so fast, they can't support their body weight, and this is the majority. You're talking about 95% of chickens are in these Frankenstein bodies. Mm. So, but just by breeding them is torture, their bodies are torture. I actually don't understand, I don't know. I guess, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about that. The egg industry, right? Let's talk about eggs. Go on. Free-range eggs. Yeah. 55% of the eggs in the UK are free-range. Yeah. The rest are either enriched or barn eggs. Yeah. There was a period of time this year that they had a lot of problems, right? Not all of them get let out. They open the door, some get let out, some don't. There's a bit of a pecking hierarchy. Let's just say they all got let out and come back in, right? Just for argument's sake. They're bred to produce about 30 times more eggs than they naturally do. Mm. Right? So they usually produce about 10, you know, one a month or something like this. Yeah. They're produced in about 300 a year. Yeah. The very act of breeding those chickens so that they have to push our egg after egg every time. They suck the nutrients out of their body. A lot of them are dying from sucking nutrients and it's horrible. Yeah, I mean. They've got osteoporosis. Honestly, I disagree with the use of the word torture because to me, torture is, it's all about the pain. When you torture someone, it's the idea is to inflict pain on them. Yeah? I mean, what you would say is it's torture to the chicken. Right, yeah. What I would just say to you, like, let's just say I've got a different, I mean, you could put this in the human context and if you think that's not torture still, just because it's an outcome. I'm trying to cut your ears off so that you don't bite other humans' ears in confinement. It's torture to me. Yeah, but it's different to you torturing me cutting off my ears because you're trying to get some information from me. Brother, the only thing I care about is what it feels like for the animal. I don't give a f*** what it feels like for you because you're a human who gets to walk up away and go sleep in your nice cozy house. I care about the animals, how they feel. Do the animals want to live? They're human beings, right? This is what we do. Who we get to eat? Who matters? Who doesn't? Who the f*** are we? Think about it. Who are we? Who do we think we are? We have figured out a lot of stuff. You haven't? I haven't. You haven't built a rocket ship? No, but I've... No. I wouldn't take credit for the human race because we've also figured out how to commit the holocaust, slavery, incredible egregious amounts of poverty and starvation, hate crimes. Look at... Women couldn't vote until 50 years ago or something. Right. You know, like, human beings, yeah, we've done some great things. We've also done some horrible, dumb, immoral, like, stone age s*** to each other, like, wars. Look at wars. Children being bombed. I haven't been going off in a bit of a tangent. No, no, no. I'm not going on a tangent. I'm saying like... It's all good about women getting the vote now. No, I'm just saying that. Human beings, kind of notoriously... Yeah, but we're all we have. No, we have a notorious... We're definitely the best species on this planet, we are one of the most horrible, egregious species on this planet. No species... No way. Oh, okay, let's debate it. What species of animal causes as much suffering and killing as the human species? Name one. Mosquitoes. No, we're near. No, we're near. No, we're near. Even if the mosquitoes wiped out the whole human race, it wouldn't even be close. We kill more non-human animals in four weeks than the number of human beings that have ever existed on Earth. Yeah. About 110 billion humans have ever existed. We kill more animals in that in a month. Right. Yeah. More suffering. I guess it goes back to why is that bad? If we're okay with it. Why is suffering bad? You just told me you're against torture. Yeah, I am. So how much torture is that? I'm sorry, mate. My phone's going up. I've got to go. I'm so sorry. It's all right. That was awesome. It's all right. You left at the right time. It's just go in and go in and go in. You got cornered, mate. I reckon you got your wife to call you and you're like, yeah, mate, get me out of this one, mate. That's not me. That's not me. Listen, good luck. That was awesome. I enjoyed it. I really appreciated you sitting down and giving me a good back and forth. Listen, good luck. I hope you have some more good conversations. Yeah. It was lovely to meet you. Really good to meet you, too, man. Sorry I won't go. I wish I had a treat to give you a vegan treat to take with you. But maybe you can do a vegan challenge and tell me how it goes one day. I felt good for anyone, it'd be for you. Not the animals, though. The animals. Screw the animals. Mate. Joey's all right. Come on. All right, mate. I really appreciate it. Take care.